ABC story - Iraqi ties to al Qaeda

[Elwood P Dowd]

Received email from repuke friend who says this proves Bush was right, and Iraq was a major supporter of terrorism against the US. Do these people ever give up?

http://abcnews.go.com/International/print?id=1734490

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Elwood P Dowd]

3. Because there is nothing here

Several countries had major operational ties to al Qaeda, but Iraq was not one of them.

[The_Casual_Observer]

5. Aren't there other countries with stronger ties than that?

Saudi Arabia for example.

Oh, and by the way there is a tombstone being made for your ass right now.

[proud2BlibKansan]

6. Question:

Why are YOU here?

Enjoy your brief stay. :hi:

[CatWoman]

8. May I ask you a question?

Why is the right so fucking hypocritical, boneheaded and stupid?

[IsItJustMe]

9. Who's truth? Yours?

[PA Democrat]

10. You mods are awesome! That was fast!

[Maggie_May]

11. Why?

Why does the right believe such bullshit.

[wryter2000]

12. Wow

That was fast.

:applause: Mods

[uppityperson]

13. That was fast TS'd

[alfredo]

18. This is old news. Osama tried, but Saddam saw him as a threat to

his secular government.

This article goes on to say:

It also indicates the discussions were substantive, in particular that bin Laden was proposing an operational relationship, and that the Iraqis were, at a minimum, interested in exploring a potential relationship and prepared to show good faith by broadcasting the speeches of al Ouda, the radical cleric who was also a bin Laden mentor.

The document does not establish that the two parties did in fact enter into an operational relationship. Given that the document claims bin Laden was proposing to the Iraqis that they conduct "joint operations against foreign forces" in Saudi Arabia, it is worth noting that eight months after the meeting -- on November 13, 1995 -- terrorists attacked Saudi National Guard Headquarters in Riyadh, killing 5 U.S. military advisers. The militants later confessed on Saudi TV to having been trained by Osama bin Laden.)


At that time Osama was more interested in Saudi Arabia. It wasn't until later that he turned his sights on the US, and that was because we had a military presence on what Osama considered holy ground. Osama would have loved to have a foothold in a country bordering SA, but Saddam was too much of a control freak to let him in. Saddam distrusted radical muslims. His distrust was well founded because a short time later Osama called for the ouster of Saddam.

You need to Read "Imperial Hubris." I am a former counter insurgency specialist who worked that part of the world. I can vouch for his observations on the religion/culture and sensibilities of the people of that region. The writer is not a lefty, he's right of center and quite hawkish.

Let me go over two points. Osama wanted the US Military out of Saudi Arabia. Bush took them out.
Osama wanted Saddam overthrown and the installation of a fundie Muslim government. Bush did it.

Extra Credit:

One last thing. Osama wanted the US tied down in a costly war on his turf. Attacking us on 9-11 was to goad us into attacking. Bush did exactly what Osama wanted and went one further by invading Iraq.


I lied- one last thing:

Bush's war has upset the uneasy balance between the more secular Sunnis of that region and the Shiite radicals. The struggle between Shiite and Sunni is long running, with the Sunni holding the upper hand. By putting Shiites in power in Iraq, it could put the more moderate Sunni governments at risk.

[Emit]

19. Very Interesting, alfredo

I just picked up "Imperial Hubris", so I'll be sure to try to catch what you are referring here to.

Question: From your post, you are pointing out that Bush has actually acquiesced to many of Osama's demands/desires.

Are you implying that this is purposeful on Bush's part, or coincidental?

The reason I ask is that I recently read "Rise of the Vulcans" by James Mann and in the chapter covering the Gulf War, the author writes about which various administration personalities wanted what goals from the Gulf War. It covers Powell's point of view, Wolfowitz's, Cheney's (who said Saudi Arabia won't like it if we take down Saddam, for example), Bush Sr., etc. And it discusses all the reasons the administration then didn't want to march on into Baghdad. Much of that reason focused on a desire to keep Saddam in power as a buffer to/against Iran.

This got me thinking that, this time in Iraq, having already entered Afghanistan, they were dead set on tearing down this buffer, and inviting all the chaos. To what end? What is the plan?

Just curious if you have any thoughts on this. Thanks.

[IsItJustMe]

2. More RW bull. This isn't a FAUX blog is it?

:sarcasm:

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[proud2BlibKansan]

7. Without a link

Someone might think you pulled that 'note' right outta your @ss.

[Maggie_May]

14. There was no relationship

with Bin Laden and Hussein it a known fact they hated one another.

[Beaverhausen]

15. But Bush said there were no ties!!!

:crazy:

[IsItJustMe]

16. Yes he did, didn't he?

[Elwood P Dowd]

17. Wasn't there an article refuting this story?

If anyone has a link, please post it.

[ElDub]

20. ????

Why is everyone so down on any dissenting opinion. I've been lurking here for awhile. I do think that if we truly want to know the truth then these documents need a thorough review

[Beaverhausen]

21. well...

...from what I read some of this info came from hand written notes and the sources are questionable at best.

and anyway...Bush has admitted that there were no ties. Is he now going to go back and say there were?

[ElDub]

25. I haven't seen where he said that.

And from a 3rd world country I'm not so sure that you can expect much more. We've already seen docs forged here that many accepted without batting an eye.

I believe that finding the truth is more important than having bragging rights.

I've been to the doces site and the stuff is pretty incriminating if you ask me.

[Beaverhausen]

27. "Forged docs...accepted here" What were those?

and anyway, dictators don't usually like anyone else to have any power in their country. There is no way Saddam would have let al queda in.

[Skittles]

44. troll

trust me

[Individualist]

22. "lurking here for a while"

You registered here yesterday. Click on your any profile, and you'll see that it tells how long the person has been here.

[Beaverhausen]

24. You can lurk without being signed on

I want to see if he/she responds to my points above.

[Individualist]

26. Didn't realize that

Thank you for enlightening me.

[Just Me]

29. We have EXHAUSTIVELY reviewed the facts. That's how you find "truth".

And, in this, the BushCO/neoconster world, you have to work very damned hard to keep ahead of all the smoke and mirrors and bullshit planted every goshdamn day by these Machiavellian global dictators.

Lurk a bit longer and maybe you, too, will be able to shift facts from bullshit and find "truth".

btw Welcome to DU. :hi:

[dogday]

23. One more time for those who are just coming in....

Saddam was a Dictator!!! He did not allow anything that would take away from Saddam. If you worshiped too much under Saddam, he would put you in jail.. He did not want religious fanatics that could overtake his Government, nor did he want Osama recruiting terrorist who would only listen to Osama.... Get it, NO RULE EXCEPT SADDAM'S RULE......

Why is this so hard to understand?

[ElDub]

28. The enemy of my enemy is my friend...

...is an old Arab adage. Saddam allied himself with religious zealots when it was in his interest. I'm just curious how we can as a group close our eyes to a mountain of documents from the Ba'athist regime and call ourselves openminded. I'm not afraid to see where the truth lies...whatever that truth might be.

If it turns out the war was justified I will eat my share of crow rather than keep the truth away.

And yes I have lurked here without registering.

[dogday]

30. But never allowed in his country

he would not let it happen in Iraq.. He did not want these groups influencing his people and usurping his authority....

[ElDub]

31. ????

I don't know that and neither do you, how can you know the mind of a madman.

My point is why are people in such an uproar now that new evidence has been brought out. I don't know what all it says, but I know it deserves afair shake.

[dogday]

32. We do know that, you just want it to be

true is what it sounds like to me... Maybe you will get a fair shake on this subject somewhere else??? Saddam was dictator for 30 years, we do know some things about how he ran his country.

[Beaverhausen]

33. at this point, why does it even matter?

Seriously? It isn't like Bush & Co. did anything to keep al queda out of iraq once we invaded. In fact that seems to have been the plan all along.

They are there now...what are we going to do about it? Keep doing what we are doing? Yeah, that is going so well isn't it?

[dogday]

34. You are right

It matters to me cuz I have my only Son over there fighting... It really matters to me. It is personal with me.....

[Beaverhausen]

35. Oh- I pray that your son comes home to you safely soon!

:hug:

[dogday]

38. Thank you for your thoughts

He is coming home hopefully before Thanksgiving this year and getting married in March 2007...

[flyarm]

36. and osama before the first gulf war with saddam wanted to be

the one to go into iraq and taking out saddam..so why do republicans and conservative refuse to read anything of contemporary history??

why are they so damn dumb??

why was osama kicked out of saudi arabia...because he was furious that * sr was going to go to war with iraq and not he himself ...osama the hero of Afghanistan!

osama hated saddam and visa versa..why is it so damn hard for the conservatives to "get it"...why are they so damn stupid????????

oh i know..silly me..they will make any excuse for their "cult" leader *

i hate their stupidity ..the conservs have cheered on this war of lies..and they continue to defend their liar in thief.. this bullshit they spew is beyond stupid now..they are complicit in an illegal war..they support a criminal in our white house who is killing our constitution and bill of rights..and is illegally spying on us..

i am convinced the only way these stupid asses would stop making excuses for their cult leader is to have 1 million cameras catch * screwing or getting a b.j. from a pink elephant on the front lawn of the white house..and even that is questionable..they didn't seem to mind a gay prostitute spending nights at the white house......in the presidential housing area..or spending two years in our press briefing room..asking bullshit questions..

these are sick sick people..and i for one am mad as hell and not taking anymore of their bullshit!

..i have no patients left for their fucking lies and cover up..or their damn stupidity

fly

[Minnesota Libra]

37. This lumps Russia, Saudi Arabia, and Iraq all together now, next.........

.....thing we know the boy king's bunch will have Russia, Saudi Arabia, and Iraq building the factories where it was made or possibly even inventing the crap. :wow:

[tjwash]

39. Jeebus Harold Christmas that is just fucking sad.

I could actually buy that the reason they originally supported this war was that they were lied to and misled. But unless you have been living under a rock for the past year or so, and still support this illegal war, even after all the overwhelming evidence of lies, and deceit that has been presented by all the mainstream media outlets, and STILL hang on to, and proselytize, the pack of lies that were handed over by this whole criminal regime, well, it's just pathetic.

It shows that your pal has no more intelligence or credibility than the 6 year old that stands there with their fingers in their ears screaming "LALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU."

By the way,is your rebuke friend between the age of 18-30?

[Elwood P Dowd]

40. He's in his 50s like me.

I've given him tons of links to read, but his mind is made up.

[tjwash]

42. Fingers in the ears huh?

That's too bad. He may just feel so bad at being misled this whole time, that he just wants to really believe it to the point of ignoring facts. My business partner was like that, but he turned around and is against this whole war now though. Of course he's an older guy like we are, and has a son that is draft age, and doesn't like that it is looking more and more like they are going to re-implement it.

So don't give up on him yet...

[Synnical]

41. Ah, the Cold Warriors at work again

<sigh>

You did see the Russian reply, yes?

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=1773123

Russia Accuses U.S. of Having 'Hidden Political Motives' for Releasing Report on Iraq Intel

MOSCOW Mar 27, 2006 (AP)— Russia's foreign minister accused the United States on Monday of having "hidden political motives" for a report that said Moscow turned over information on American military plans to Saddam Hussein during the invasion of Iraq.

Sergey Lavrov's comments were the first formal statement from President Vladimir Putin's government about the Pentagon report, though a spokesman for Russia's foreign spy agency over the weekend denied the report's allegations.

The Pentagon report released Friday said two captured Iraqi documents indicate that Russia obtained information from sources "inside the American Central Command" in Qatar. Russia passed battlefield intelligence to Saddam through the former Russian ambassador in Baghdad, Vladimir Titorenko, according to the Pentagon report.

The unclassified report does not assess the value or accuracy of the information Saddam got or offer details on Russia's information pipeline. Moscow fiercely opposed the U.S.-led war to oust Saddam.

And then there's this from the WaPo.com:

http://blogs.washingtonpost.com/earlywarning/2006/03/spy_vs_spy_in_i.html

Spy vs. Spy in Iraq

Do we really believe that the U.S. military thinks that Russia had a spy in the middle of American war planning for Iraq or that Russia broke some American code and listened in on U.S. war preparations in 2003?

And do we really think that Secretary of State and former national security advisor Condoleezza Rice first heard of this on Friday, as she made believe she did yesterday in television interviews?

The answer to both questions is no.

Welcome to the self-perpetuating world of spy vs. spy. Russia dangles information in front of the Iraqi regime to curry favor, the United States tries to use the certainty that Russia and other countries will do this to convey disinformation to Baghdad, American deceptions and Russian information, valid or not, have no impact whatsoever on the thinking of the Iraqi leadership.

<snip>

In the world of spy vs. spy, Washington pretends shock, Russia denies. Washington and Moscow expect and even demand that each side spies on the other, otherwise what would $45 billion spy establishments be for? The activity is an important as any outcome.

The only stunner here would be that the United States actually suspects a Russian penetration of the American military, and blithely released this bombshell in an otherwise carefully vetted unclassified report.

[killbotfactory]

43. The UAE partied with Bin Laden in Afghanistan in 1999

And we tried to sell them our ports.

But when Iraqi's met him once in 1995 in a meeting that went nowhere due to lack of trust, it's a reason for invasion?