My younger brother asked me to post the question...

[catnhatnh]

...how much oil does it take to produce a gallon of ethanol....seems "West Wing" convinced him it was a near one to one exchange....I tried to explain that to me the real balance was more about total emissions and that if coal was used in the process (to reduce foreign dependence) there might easily be increased net environmental damage....I also explained that my high school level math would not stand up to the type equations liable to show up here...And that a backwoods solar lens type cooker might indeed make a corn fuel without a net loss,but that I saw no plans to try this...Short of a fusion reactor can anyone here give me a viable ethanol theory in terms simple enough for my non-physics friendly mind???

[IsItJustMe]

1. You don't use oil to produce ethanol. That would defeat the whole purpose

As far as corn goes, I would guestimate a bushel per gallon.

[Sal Minella]

4. Iowa is building coal-fired ethanol plants. Just today I learned this,

and haven't researched it yet. Breaks my heart. There must be enough tax breaks attached to make building an ethanol plant attractive, but you'd think some thought would be given to mandating the type of energy input.

[IsItJustMe]

dup

[IsItJustMe]

9. I don't understand why they are using coal. I believe you can create

ethanol through a natural process. It's probably used to speed the process along.

[catnhatnh]

17. Read downthread...

that can get you to 14% if your ambients are high...But from 14% to burnable is a HUGE deal...

[HamdenRice]

10. Unfortunately you do use oil to produce ethanol and it does

defeat the purpose. Right now ethanol is produced from corn. But American corn farming is ludicrously energy and petroleum intensive -- from petroleum based fertilizers to the gas that runs tractors. One reason that it seems to be cost effective is the subsidies given to farmers.

For ethanol to work in terms of replacing oil, either we need a less oil intensive system of agriculture or we need to ferment something other than corn.

[IsItJustMe]

11. Your right. Brazil is doing well with it using sugar cain but the workers

process it manualy.

[catnhatnh]

15. Yes you do....

That is the problem...Do you somehow assume they rub two corncobs together and ethanol DROPS from them???It is an INDUSTRIAL process and I am curious about the net balance...

[catnhatnh]

16. Wrong guy...

it takes heat to convert corn to alcohol...and heat is most often made by oil or coal...there is no ethanol fairy...

[IsItJustMe]

18. OK, lets use solar.

[Poppyseedman]

2. Forget your brothers question about ethanol

The bigger issue is he needs to understand that "believe nothing you see on T.V. and only half of what you read in the newspaper/internet"

[karlrschneider]

3. Alcohols aren't made from crude oil. Not sure where that came from...

??

[Sal Minella]

6. Takes a lot of energy input to make ethanol from corn,

used to be about 1:1 but the newer plants are more efficient, I've been told.

[Avalux]

5. Go here and read a bit -

Good site for general info.

There are essentially three methods used to produce ethanol:

* Manufacture from ethene using steam (the "synthetic" route)
* Production from sugars and starches by fermentation, using yeasts
* Production from biomass waste, using bacteria.


http://www.uyseg.org/greener_industry/pages/ethanol/ethanol4PMS.htm


:hi:

[tuvor]

7. Don't know if this'll help, but

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=732699&mesg_id=732699

(Be sure to read the whole thing.)

[uppityperson]

8. ethanol is drinking alcohol.

there are many types of alcohol, ethanol is the kind you can drink (depending on what else is in it). Not made of oil, made of plant material. Buy him a bottle of liquor.

[Ready4Change]

12. Common humbug arguement.

People say that to farm the crops for ethanol you've got to use oil burning tractors/combines, etc...

Nonsense.

The very first thing to do, if converting to an ethanol or biodiesel economy, is to convert your farm equipment and transportation trucks to burning that very ethanol or biodiesel. That ensures your infrastructure will remain valid, and provide incentive to produce the fuels more efficiently, as you only make a profit off your EXCESS fuel production.

[catnhatnh]

13. I'll try once more....

to Distill alcohol,you need a heat source-the most common industrial one being fossil fuels....one link given to me endorses a fermentation method but the temperatures neccesary as a background note require that global warming advance MUCH more quickly or that Tucson Arizona produce all our ethanol-which would be ok except this process yields "14% ethanol in an aqueous solution"-in short something very much like MD20-20 enhanced wine,that may get your motor running, but is MILES away from being a gasoline replacement....from there it takes a heat source and patience...thus my question-ethanol-yes or no???

[many a good man]

14. Its a judgment call

The scientists say right now ethanol production is just about net energy neutral-- it requires as much energy to produce (to raise the corn and process it) as it provides. A lot of the energy inputs today are oil-based, but that can change in the future. When oil hits $100/bbl. many alternative energy sources will suddenly become competitive. We need to ambitiously fund research in a variety of approaches, ethanol included, and hope for a breakthough somewhere.

Sadly, the internal combustion engine must go the way of the dinosaur.