Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Did Hilary vote for the war?

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (01/01/06 through 01/22/2007) Donate to DU
 
Tim4319 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 09:39 AM
Original message
Did Hilary vote for the war?
Or, did she vote to give the president authorization to go to war, once everything had been exhausted? I always thought that the vote was based on the trust that Iraq was to be invaded as a last resort(even thought it should not have been invaded at all). I thought the vote was more about giving the president the authority to go to war, not limiting his power to mobilize troops.

As we all know, we cannot trust this president! He lied to The Congress, The Senate, and to The American People. There is no way Iraq should have been on the radar. They posed absolutely no threat to us. North Korea, was and is, the biggest threat of producing Nuclear Weapons.

I interpreted the situation as a vote to authorize once everything had been exhausted. So, I just wanted to know if someone can tell me which way Hilary voted? If there is a difference?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
bowens43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 09:41 AM
Response to Original message
1. You're right of course.
There was no vote on whether or not to go to war. The decision to invade Iraq was entirely that of the administration. The resolution in question was meant to slow down the march to war. The president did NOT need authorization to invade.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mattclearing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #1
6. But he does need authorization to declare war/spend money.
So at some point Congress was going to have to be consulted one way or another, though we have clearly never formally declared war on Iraq. The IWR was a way for Congress to punt their constitutional war-making powers to the Executive branch.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #6
11. Bush read authorization as need to break FISA laws (domestic) also!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mattclearing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #11
16. Yeah, these guys sure have a strict constructionist judicial philosophy.
:eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
xiamiam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 09:43 AM
Response to Original message
2. im sick of making excuses for congress and the americans who were misled
i wasnt misled ...and im not even politically savvy or smart...its bullshit..i knew * was lying...and so did the majority of people in my community....so im not buying the misled excuse...sorry....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tim4319 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #2
9. I feel the same way.
When the announcement was made that Iraq was in the cross hairs, I immediately thought that this was revenge. Saddam and Osama have nothing in common. I don't even think the two get along.

First of all, Osama is a radical Islamist, who's beliefs are more catered toward "Old School" Islam. Saddam, on the other hand, is more westernized! Osama hated the west. Saddam, and his sons, loved the west way of living. They were more worried about money and power, while Osama was worried about keep the Islamic holy land free from the infidels!

So, with that being said, I knew deep down in my gut, Iraq was just revenge for the attempt on Shrub Sr.'s life.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #2
12. So instead you're going to help the Radical RW by pushing their meme?
You had a pretty good idea Bush** was lying. So did I.

But what, pray tell, is it like to be a sitting US Senator? What sort of information was Sen. Clinton getting? What is at stake for a Senator making a judgement like this, versus rubes like you and me sitting on our fat asses in front of computer monitors making this judgement? If you can't answer those questions, then you're missing a critical piece of information in your analysis of her decision.

NGU.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
xiamiam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #12
20. there were others who stood against ..Barbara Lee for example..but
maybe it was easier for Barbara because she didnt have her sites on the presidency so she didnt need to pander to the manipulated moderate ...and while my ass may be fat...the internet is the most powerful tool we have right now...everyone i know gets some piece of information from me daily that i find here or somewhere else...certainly not mmm..and what ive learned here, is that we all need to be educated and aware and to do our part in disseminating info..oh, and by the way....occasionally i grab a poster and go out and march as well....and you?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #20
23. Yes, there were some who saw the picture with total clarity.
Edited on Fri Mar-24-06 10:18 AM by ClassWarrior
Rep. Lee being an excellent example. Clearly, Sen. Clinton made the wrong decision. I'm just saying that to condemn her for her motives, without really being in any position to understand those motives, is the kind of behavior I expect from the goose-steppers at FR. (And it's self-defeating to boot, since it backs up the RW when they point and scream, "See! They voted for the warrr...")

And while I personally would find it hard to get through a day without online access, there are some who are STILL just getting up-to-speed on the internets and their multitude of wonders. Many of our insulated DC officials, for instance. The learning curve is long on new technology. Just a fact of modern life, I'm afraid.

And yes, I'm involved. <LOL>

NGU.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
xiamiam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. Hillarys motives?...who cares?wrong decision...its like trying to justify
cheneys motives or *s' motives..money and or power come to mind...may be too simplistic but thats how i see it...and while there ARE those who voted for this mess whom i have forgiven.. and while I still have respect for her...i expected more from her...and the middle of the road pandering for politics has left me cold...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. But the OP, and your initial reply, are all about motives and "excuses."
My point is, in absence of anything except suspicions, why assume the worst of our people instead of giving them the benefit of the doubt? Especially when voicing those unfounded suspicions only helps the RW?

While we're at it, why do so many call her "Hillary" like she's a little girl, instead of calling her Senator Clinton and giving her the respect her office deserves? That's another meme courtesy of the RW woman-haters, and all it takes is our laziness and irresponsible spite for it to take hold.

NGU.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
xiamiam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. suspicions to you...instinct to me...a little voice which has always
proven correct for me..and which i encourage everyone to hone...i respect her...but i admire barbara boxer and barbara lee and russ feingold and al gore...nothing that i could ever say would help the RW..lock step along party lines regardless of whether i agree or not is RW...i want courage from my representatives to stand up even if they are alone...like boxer..and conyers...and feingold..

and in answer to your second question, calling Hillary by her first name is a form of respect and endearment...i know it sounds strange but its just true...case in point, jazz lovers never refer to their beloved divas by anything other than their first name....ella, dinah, billie, sarah...etc...and you know what, we all know who we're talking about...cultural thing i think...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. We help the RW pass their memes to the undecided every day if we're...
...not careful. And don't ever fool yourself into thinking that's not true.

And we all want courage from our Reps. But we won't get it by undermining our own party - inadvertantly or otherwise - in our eagerness to spew bile.

Remember, we only lose when we lose control.

NGU.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
xiamiam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. you keep suggesting that because i dont support Hillary I am supporting
the RW...i just dont support her stance on this war..i believe that the middle of the road approach to politics is not going to work any longer...i am not spewing bile...im trusting my instincts...and actually if you want to know what i really think, the RW would be exhilarated if we nominated Hillary..i believe supporting her for president is a losing proposition and you are attempting to terrorize me into not speaking my truth..if i learned anything over the past 6 years..it is to speak my truth..lieberman is a democrat and i cant stand him....and while we're at it, while i believe that the 2000 election was stolen and while i respect Nader, i still blame him partially for this mess we're in...not a popular opinion but it is my opinion...
i accept my role in all of this is to share info with others...usually linked info..people who dont come here or read anything..the clerk at the corner store..my republican senior aunt..the twenty somethings in my life...i dont need to make their decisions for them, i trust with enough accurate info, they'll step to the plate...
the rw have their talking points down....my talking points keep evolving as i grow...i would hope the same for you...one thing for sure...im not gonna shut up, lock step, or vote for anyone i dont believe in..
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #12
36. She can stand up and say "I was wrong" and "We need to get out now"
anytime, and I will say 'good for you Mrs. Clinton, welcome home'. It is that simple.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mattclearing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 09:45 AM
Response to Original message
3. I've had this IWR discussion a number of times now.
Edited on Fri Mar-24-06 09:45 AM by tasteblind
Basically, it depends on your reading of the IWR.

If you are a Democratic politician who doesn't want to be painted as weak on national security, you can say it is a vote to give the President authority to go to war as a last resort.

If you are a DU'er, you are screaming, "NO, YOU IDIOTS, HE'S GOING TO INVADE THE SECOND YOU GIVE AUTHORITY, HE AND HIS CRONIES HAVE BEEN ITCHING TO DO IT FOR YEARS, DID YOU MISS THE PNAC OR WHAT?"

We are left to deduce whether Dems in the Senate who voted for war had the common sense that we did to see the evidence on the table and conclude, as most of us did, that the Administration was trumping up the case for invasion based on bogus intelligence, and made a cynical decision with a presidential election season around the corner, or were actually gullible enough to believe the Bush Administration's WMD propaganda.

I know which side of this argument I am on, and am tired of arguing about it. That's my take.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
atreides1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #3
10. Here it is.
SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

This joint resolution may be cited as the `Authorization for Use of Military Force'.

SEC. 2. AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES.

(a) IN GENERAL- That the President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons.

(b) War Powers Resolution Requirements-

(1) SPECIFIC STATUTORY AUTHORIZATION- Consistent with section 8(a)(1) of the War Powers Resolution, the Congress declares that this section is intended to constitute specific statutory authorization within the meaning of section 5(b) of the War Powers Resolution.

(2) APPLICABILITY OF OTHER REQUIREMENTS- Nothing in this resolution supercedes any requirement of the War Powers Resolution.


Approved September 18, 2001.

See how Section 2(a) is very general and allows Bush to use force against those nations, organizations, or persons HE DETERMINES planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks.

So based on this authorization, Bush was acting within his authority when he ordered the invasion of Iraq. Because he determined that Iraq was part of the 9/11 plan.

Just an opinion.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mattclearing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. That's not the operative section regarding Iraq, though.
This is:

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.
This joint resolution may be cited as the `Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002'.
SEC. 2. SUPPORT FOR UNITED STATES DIPLOMATIC EFFORTS. The Congress of the United States supports the efforts by the President to--
(1) strictly enforce through the United Nations Security Council all relevant Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq and encourages him in those efforts; and
(2) obtain prompt and decisive action by the Security Council to ensure that Iraq abandons its strategy of delay, evasion and noncompliance and promptly and strictly complies with all relevant
Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq.
SEC. 3. AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES.
(a) AUTHORIZATION- The President is authorized to use the Armed Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and appropriate in order to--
(1) defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq; and
(2) enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq.
(b) PRESIDENTIAL DETERMINATION- In connection with the exercise of the authority granted in subsection (a) to use force the President shall, prior to such exercise or as soon thereafter as may be feasible, but no later than 48 hours after exercising such authority, make available to the Speaker of the House of Representatives and the President pro tempore of the Senate his determination that--
(1) reliance by the United States on further diplomatic or other peaceful means alone either (A) will not adequately protect the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq or (B) is not likely to lead to enforcement of all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq; and
(2) acting pursuant to this joint resolution is consistent with the United States and other countries continuing to take the necessary actions against international terrorist and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations, or persons who planned, authorized, committed or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #10
34. He'll also cite 2(a) as authorization to spread the war to Iran and/or,...
,...Syria. Watch him.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 09:47 AM
Response to Original message
4. Technically, it was a vote for authorization for war as a last resort
However, given that millions upon millions of people, both here in the US and around the world, saw through the Bushit and knew that any such authorization vote would bring about an Iraqi war quickly, Hillary would have to have been blind, deaf and dumb to not understand that any such vote she cast would result in an Iraq war in very short order.

On top of that, she failed in her duty to represent her constituents on this issue. In the run up to the IWR vote, messages to ALL Congressmen were running 268-1 against the IWR. Millions of people across the country were out on the streets emphatically saying NO. Poll after poll showed that the vast majority of people wanted no action taken on Iraq until the inspectors finished their job. And yet Hillary disregarded her constituents' wishes and voted for it anyway.

And finally, Hillary's support for the war has yet to waver. She has voted for every war funding bill that has come down the pike. She has been outspoken in her support of the war, and equally outspoken in her criticism of those who are against the war, including her fellow Democrats.

So when push comes to shove, yeah Hillary is a hawk on the war, and has always supported it.

And that is one big reason why I will never vote for her, either in the primaries or in the general election if she gets the nod in '08.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
xiamiam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. ditto..will NEVER vote for her...nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
atreides1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #4
15. Yes it was
But it didn't seem to matter to Bush, and Congress sure didn't do anything to make sure that he abided by the requirements, did they???

“SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.
“This joint resolution may be cited as the ‘Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002’.
“SEC. 2. SUPPORT FOR UNITED STATES DIPLOMATIC EFFORTS.
“The Congress of the United States supports the efforts by the President to—
“(1) strictly enforce through the United Nations Security Council all relevant Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq and encourages him in those efforts; and
“(2) obtain prompt and decisive action by the Security Council to ensure that Iraq abandons its strategy of delay, evasion and noncompliance and promptly and strictly complies with all relevant Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq.
“SEC. 3. AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES.
“(a) Authorization.—The President is authorized to use the Armed Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and appropriate in order to—
“(1) defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq; and
“(2) enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq.
“(b) Presidential Determination.—In connection with the exercise of the authority granted in subsection (a) to use force the President shall, prior to such exercise or as soon thereafter as may be feasible, but no later than 48 hours after exercising such authority, make available to the Speaker of the House of Representatives and the President pro tempore of the Senate his determination that—
“(1) reliance by the United States on further diplomatic or other peaceful means alone either (A) will not adequately protect the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq or (B) is not likely to lead to enforcement of all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq; and
“(2) acting pursuant to this joint resolution is consistent with the United States and other countries continuing to take the necessary actions against international terrorist and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations, or persons who planned, authorized, committed or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001.
“(c) War Powers Resolution Requirements.—
“(1) Specific statutory authorization.—Consistent with section 8(a)(1) of the War Powers Resolution <50 U.S.C. 1547 (a)(1)>, the Congress declares that this section is intended to constitute specific statutory authorization within the meaning of section 5(b) of the War Powers Resolution <50 U.S.C. 1544 (b)>.
“(2) Applicability of other requirements.—Nothing in this joint resolution supersedes any requirement of the War Powers Resolution <50 U.S.C. 1541 et seq.>.
“SEC. 4. REPORTS TO CONGRESS.
“(a) Reports.—The President shall, at least once every 60 days, submit to the Congress a report on matters relevant to this joint resolution, including actions taken pursuant to the exercise of authority granted in section 3 and the status of planning for efforts that are expected to be required after such actions are completed, including those actions described in section 7 of the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998 (Public Law 105–338) <22 U.S.C. 2151 note >.
“(b) Single Consolidated Report.—To the extent that the submission of any report described in subsection (a) coincides with the submission of any other report on matters relevant to this joint resolution otherwise required to be submitted to Congress pursuant to the reporting requirements of the War Powers Resolution (Public Law 93–148) <50 U.S.C. 1541 et seq.>, all such reports may be submitted as a single consolidated report to the Congress.
“(c) Rule of Construction.—To the extent that the information required by section 3 of the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution (Public Law 102–1) is included in the report required by this section, such report shall be considered as meeting the requirements of section 3 of such resolution.”
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tim4319 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #4
17. Thanks for the insight Madhound!
From the sounds of things, you are really mad!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RufusEarl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #4
21. I'll just add this,
to your well stated conclusion. Even though Hillary's constituent's made it plan they did not want war with Iraq, Hillary's decision was made because of her ambitions to run for president in 08.

She had to look strong on national security, so she could run in 08, here decision was purely political and not in the best interest of her country. For that reason she'll not get my support in 08.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mnmoderatedem Donating Member (599 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #4
32. Politics is perception

you know how the game is played:

"If it were up to (Hillary, Kerry, choose your representative) Sadaam would still be in power, yada, yada, yada..."

Has the potential to kill political careers. When it came down to it, they gave in to the pressure, fearing for their own political careers, rather than voting their conscience. Hillry has ridden both sides of the fence, and has continually tried to have her cake and eat it too.

Sorry Hillary, take a stand or lose my vote...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 09:47 AM
Response to Original message
5. Voted for and supporter of the war since day one.
And as far as I know she continues to support 'the war'. She has no out here. She listened to her idiot advisors and she is stuck with her hawk stance.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 09:50 AM
Response to Original message
8. She voted for the war. The "Duh, I didn't think he'd do it" doesn't fly.
It's sheer CYA for her and the others who backed Bush to further their political ambitions.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
14. Did anyone really believe that Bush wouldn't invade Iraq? With or without
Edited on Fri Mar-24-06 09:56 AM by leveymg
another Senate vote?

Those Senators who argue that they really didn't foresee the inevitability of invasion once that
vote was cast, or didn't mean to authorize the invasion, are only fooling themselves.

Of course, no one wanted to be singled-out for censure when and if American troops died in large numbers from chemical/bio weapons that Saddam, fortunately, didn't have.

So, nearly everyone just crossed their fingers, voted Yes, and hoped for a quick, relatively bloodless victory.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
xultar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #14
19. TRUE. He was going in regardless. None of them voted for Iraq.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FloridaPat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
18. * was to report back to congress before he did any invading.
That was part of the authorization. He reported back in a letter a couple of hours before he gave the go-ahead. Here is a copy of the letter. It clearly links Saddam with 9-11

March 18, 2003

Dear Mr. Speaker: (Dear Mr. President:)

Consistent with section 3(b) of the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002 (Public Law 107-243), and based on information available to me, including that in the enclosed document, I determine that:

(1) reliance by the United States on further diplomatic and other peaceful means alone will neither (A) adequately protect the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq nor (B) likely lead to enforcement of all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq; and

(2) acting pursuant to the Constitution and Public Law 107-243 is consistent with the United States and other countries continuing to take the necessary actions against international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations, or persons who planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001.

Sincerely,

GEORGE W. BUSH
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #18
24. Reporting back isn't a second vote, is it?
I don't believe the AUMFAIR required one, did it?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FloridaPat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #24
35. No. I think congress thought there would be a discussion and time
to act before the actual invasion.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kashka-Kat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
22. But some knew what that vote really meant and that's why they
VOTED AGAINST IT. Everyone I knew, knew at the time exactly what that vote meant and we were dismayed/blown away that so many Dems voted for it. "Report back," what the heck does that mean?

Clinton et al were enablers for this war, nothing less. Now, if you want to talk about how traumatized we were as a nation by 911, how fear makes us vulnerable to exploitation and mindgames, how weve maybe done things out of fear that we now regret and how we will now do whatever we can to correct the situation... then let's talk. Then you have my full unequivocable support. But don't bullshit me. Just DONT.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
29. What you say is correct...and if you read her floor statement...
Her rationale is clear...


If we were to attack Iraq now, alone or with few allies, it would set a precedent that could come back to haunt us. In recent days, Russia has talked of an invasion of Georgia to attack Chechen rebels. India has mentioned the possibility of a pre-emptive strike on Pakistan. And what if China were to perceive a threat from Taiwan?

So Mr. President, for all its appeal, a unilateral attack, while it cannot be ruled out, on the present facts is not a good option.
...

While there is no perfect approach to this thorny dilemma, and while people of good faith and high intelligence can reach diametrically opposed conclusions, I believe the best course is to go to the UN for a strong resolution that scraps the 1998 restrictions on inspections and calls for complete, unlimited inspections with cooperation expected and demanded from Iraq. I know that the Administration wants more, including an explicit authorization to use force, but we may not be able to secure that now, perhaps even later. But if we get a clear requirement for unfettered inspections, I believe the authority to use force to enforce that mandate is inherent in the original 1991 UN resolution, as President Clinton recognized when he launched Operation Desert Fox in 1998.

If we get the resolution that President Bush seeks, and if Saddam complies, disarmament can proceed and the threat can be eliminated. Regime change will, of course, take longer but we must still work for it, nurturing all reasonable forces of opposition.

...

Because bipartisan support for this resolution makes success in the United Nations more likely, and therefore, war less likely, and because a good faith effort by the United States, even if it fails, will bring more allies and legitimacy to our cause, I have concluded, after careful and serious consideration, that a vote for the resolution best serves the security of our nation. If we were to defeat this resolution or pass it with only a few Democrats, I am concerned that those who want to pretend this problem will go way with delay will oppose any UN resolution calling for unrestricted inspections.



http://clinton.senate.gov/speeches/iraq_101002.html



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. She wanted to legitimize U.S. action, whatever that might be.
It's not so much that she was really enthusiatic about the invasion, but knowing that it was going to happen, she wanted to maintain the appearance of a bi-partisan consensus. She never seriously thought the Bush Administration would go for another round of UN-ordered incpections. Hillary knew that the Bush Admin. had in fact ordered the weapons inspectors out of Iraq. Her statement is entirely disengenuous, except that she does emphasise what she sees as the importance of supporting the Administration, apparently no matter what it does, in foreign affairs. That's how I read this:

"Because bipartisan support for this resolution makes success in the United Nations more likely, and therefore, war less likely, and because a good faith effort by the United States, even if it fails, will bring more allies and legitimacy to our cause, I have concluded, after careful and serious consideration, that a vote for the resolution best serves the security of our nation. If we were to defeat this resolution or pass it with only a few Democrats, I am concerned that those who want to pretend this problem will go way with delay will oppose any UN resolution calling for unrestricted inspections."


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hell Hath No Fury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-24-06 11:42 AM
Response to Original message
31. On October 4, 2002...
Edited on Fri Mar-24-06 11:44 AM by Hell Hath No Fury
Senator Robert Byrd gave the following speech on the floor of the Senate. For anyone -- including a Democrat -- who has the balls to claim they were voting "technically" for a resolution to authorize force as a last result, I ask them to read this and then try telling me that with a straight face. HHNF


The great Roman historian, Titus Livius, said, "All things will be clear and distinct to the man who does not hurry; haste is blind and improvident."

"Blind and improvident," Mr. President. "Blind and improvident." Congress would be wise to heed those words today, for as sure as the sun rises in the east, we are embarking on a course of action with regard to Iraq that, in its haste, is both blind and improvident. We are rushing into war without fully discussing why, without thoroughly considering the consequences, or without making any attempt to explore what steps we might take to avert conflict.

The newly bellicose mood that permeates this White House is unfortunate, all the moreso because it is clearly motivated by campaign politics. Republicans are already running attack ads against Democrats on Iraq. Democrats favor fast approval of a resolution so they can change the subject to domestic economic problems. (NY Times 9/20/2002)

Before risking the lives of American troops, all members of Congress - Democrats and Republicans alike - must overcome the siren song of political polls and focus strictly on the merits, not the politics, of this most serious issue. (Were you listening, Mr. Kerry and Ms. Clinton? HHNF).

The resolution before us today is not only a product of haste; it is also a product of presidential hubris. This resolution is breathtaking in its scope. It redefines the nature of defense, and reinterprets the Constitution to suit the will of the Executive Branch. It would give the President blanket authority to launch a unilateral preemptive attack on a sovereign nation that is perceived to be a threat to the United States. This is an unprecedented and unfounded interpretation of the President's authority under the Constitution, not to mention the fact that it stands the charter of the United Nations on its head.

Representative Abraham Lincoln, in a letter to William H. Herndon, stated: "Allow the President to invade a neighboring nation whenever he shall deem it necessary to repel an invasion, and you allow him to do so whenever he may choose to say he deems it necessary for such purpose - - and you allow him to make war at pleasure. Study to see if you can fix any limit to his power in this respect, after you have given him so much as you propose. If, to-day, he should choose to say he thinks it necessary to invade Canada, to prevent the British from invading us, how could you stop him? You may say to him, 'I see no probability of the British invading us' but he will say to you 'be silent; I see it, if you don't.'

"The provision of the Constitution giving the war-making power to Congress, was dictated, as I understand it, by the following reasons. Kings had always been involving and impoverishing their people in wars, pretending generally, if not always, that the good of the people was the object. This, our Convention understood to be the most oppressive of all Kingly oppressions; and they resolved to so frame the Constitution that no one man should hold the power of bringing this oppression upon us. But your view destroys the whole matter, and places our President where kings have always stood."

If he could speak to us today, what would Lincoln say of the Bush doctrine concerning preemptive strikes?

In a September 18 report, the Congressional Research Service had this to say about the preemptive use of military force:

The historical record indicates that the United States has never, to date, engaged in a "preemptive" military attack against another nation. Nor has the United States ever attacked another nation militarily prior to its first having been attacked or prior to U.S. citizens or interests first having been attacked, with the singular exception of the Spanish-American War. The Spanish-American War is unique in that the principal goal of United States military action was to compel Spain to grant Cuba its political independence.

The Congressional Research Service also noted that the Cuban Missile Crisis of 1962 "represents a threat situation which some may argue had elements more parallel to those presented by Iraq today - but it was resolved without a "preemptive" military attack by the United States."

Article I, Section 8, of the Constitution grants Congress the power to declare war and to call forth the militia "to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions." Nowhere in the Constitution is it written that the President has the authority to call forth the militia to preempt a perceived threat. And yet, the resolution before the Senate avers that the President "has authority under the Constitution to take action in order to deter and prevent acts of international terrorism against the United States, as Congress recognized in the joint resolution on Authorization for Use of Miliary Force" following the September 11 terrorist attack. What a cynical twisting of words! The reality is that Congress, exercising the authority granted to it under the Constitution, granted the President specific and limited authority to use force against the perpetrators of the September 11 attack. Nowhere was there an implied recognition of inherent authority under the Constitution to "deter and prevent" future acts of terrorism.

Think for a moment of the precedent that this resolution will set, not just for this President but for future Presidents. From this day forward, American Presidents will be able to invoke Senate Joint Resolution 46 as justification for launching preemptive military strikes against any sovereign nations that they perceive to be a threat. Other nations will be able to hold up the United States as the model to justify their military adventures. Do you not think that India and Pakistan, China and Taiwan, Russia and Georgia are closely watching the outcome of this debate? Do you not think that future adversaries will look to this moment to rationalize the use of military force to achieve who knows what ends?

Perhaps a case can be made that Iraq poses such a clear and immediate danger to the United States that preemptive military action is the only way to deal with the threat. To be sure, weapons of mass destruction are a 20th century horror that the Framers of the Constitution had no way of foreseeing. But they did foresee the frailty of human nature and the inherent danger of concentrating too much power in one individual. That is why the Framers bestowed on Congress, not the President, the power to declare war.

As James Madison wrote in 1793, "In no part of the constitution is more wisdom to be found, than in the clause which confides the question of war or peace to the legislature, and not to the executive department. Beside the objection to such a mixture to heterogeneous powers, the trust and the temptation would be too great for any one man...."

Congress has a responsibility to exercise with extreme care the power to declare war. There is no weightier matter to be considered. A war against Iraq will affect thousands if not tens of thousands of lives, and perhaps alter the course of history. It will surely affect the balance of power in the Middle East. It is not a decision to be taken in haste, under the glare of election year politics and the pressure of artificial deadlines. And yet any observer can see that that is exactly what the Senate is proposing to do.

The Senate is rushing to vote on whether to declare war on Iraq without pausing to ask why. Why is war being dealt with not as a last resort but as a first resort? Why is Congress being pressured to act now, as of today, 33 days before a general election when a third of the Senate and the entire House of Representatives are in the final, highly politicized, weeks of election campaigns? As recently as Tuesday (Oct. 1), the President said he had not yet made up his mind about whether to go to war with Iraq. And yet Congress is being exhorted to give the President open-ended authority now, to exercise whenever he pleases, in the event that he decides to invade Iraq. Why is Congress elbowing past the President to authorize a military campaign that the President may or may not even decide to pursue? Aren't we getting ahead of ourselves?

The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retained some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capability. Intelligence reports also indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons, but has not yet achieved nuclear capability. It is now October of 2002. Four years have gone by in which neither this administration nor the previous one felt compelled to invade Iraq to protect against the imminent threat of weapons of mass destruction. Until today. Until 33 days until election day. Now we are being told that we must act immediately, before adjournment and before the elections. Why the rush?

Yes, we had September 11. But we must not make the mistake of looking at the resolution before us as just another offshoot of the war on terror. We know who was behind the September 11 attacks on the United States. We know it was Osama bin Laden and his al Qaeda terrorist network. We have dealt with al Qaeda and with the Taliban government that sheltered it - we have routed them from Afghanistan and we are continuing to pursue them in hiding.

So where does Iraq enter the equation? No one in the Administration has been able to produce any solid evidence linking Iraq to the September 11 attack. Iraq had biological and chemical weapons long before September 11. We knew it then, and we know it now. Iraq has been an enemy of the United States for more than a decade. If Saddam Hussein is such an imminent threat to the United States, why hasn't he attacked us already? The fact that Osama bin Laden attacked the United States does not, de facto, mean that Saddam Hussein is now in a lock and load position and is readying an attack on the United States. In truth, there is nothing in the deluge of Administration rhetoric over Iraq that is of such moment that it would preclude the Senate from setting its own timetable and taking the time for a thorough and informed discussion of this crucial issue.

The President is using the Oval Office as a bully pulpit to sound the call to arms, but it is from Capitol Hill that such orders must flow. The people, through their elected representatives, must make that decision. It is here that debate must take place and where the full spectrum of the public's desires, concerns, and misgivings must be heard. We should not allow ourselves to be pushed into one course or another in the face of a full court publicity press from the White House. We have, rather, a duty to the nation and her sons and daughters to carefully examine all possible courses of action and to consider the long term consequences of any decision to act.

As to separation of powers, Justice Louis Brandeis observed: "the doctrine of the separation of powers was adopted by the Convention of 1787, not to promote efficiency but to preclude the exercise of arbitrary power." (Myers v. United States, 1926)

No one supports Saddam Hussein. If he were to disappear tomorrow, no one would shed a tear around the world. I would not. My handkerchief would remain dry. But the principle of one government deciding to eliminate another government, using force to do so, and taking that action in spite of world disapproval, is a very disquieting thing. I am concerned that it has the effect of destabilizing the world community of nations. I am concerned that it fosters a climate of suspicion and mistrust in U.S. relations with other nations. The United States is not a rogue nation, given to unilateral action in the face of worldwide opprobrium.

I am also concerned about the consequences of a U.S. invasion of Iraq. It is difficult to imagine that Saddam Hussein, who has been ruthless in gaining and staying in power, would give up without a fight. He is a man who has not shirked from using chemical weapons against his own people. I fear that he would use everything in his arsenal against an invasion force, or against an occupation force, up to and including whatever chemical, biological, or nuclear weapons he might still have. Iraq is not Afghanistan, impoverished by decades of war, internal strife, and stifling religious oppression. Though its military forces are much diminished, Iraq has a strong central command and much greater governmental control over its forces and its people. It is a large country that has spent years on a wartime footing, and it still has some wealth.

Nor do I think that the Iraqi people would necessarily rise up against Saddam Hussein in the event of a U.S. invasion, even if there is an undercurrent of support for his overthrow. The Iraqi people have spent decades living in fear of Saddam Hussein and his network of informers and security forces. There has been no positive showing, in the form of riots or large and active internal opposition groups, that popular sentiment in Iraq supports a governmental overthrow or the installation of a democratic or republican form of government. There is no tradition of democracy in Iraq's long history. There is, however, a natural instinct to favor the known over the unknown, and in this instance, the U.S. is the unknown factor. The President and his cabinet have suggested that this would be a war of relatively short duration. If that is true, which I doubt, but if it were, why would the Iraqi populace rush out to welcome the U.S. forces. In a few weeks, they might have to answer to the remnants of Saddam Hussein's security forces. A prudent Iraqi would just put his or her head under the bedcovers and not come out until the future became clear.

A U.S. invasion of Iraq that proved successful and which resulted in the overthrow of the government would not be a simple effort. The aftermath of that effort would require a long term occupation. The President has said that he would overthrow Saddam Hussein and establish a new government that would recognize all interest groups in Iraq. This would presumably include the Kurds to the north and the Shiite Muslims to the south. Because the entire military and security apparatus of Iraq would have to be replaced, the U.S. would have to provide interim security throughout the countryside. This kind of nation-building cannot be accomplished with the wave of a wand by some fairy godmother, even one with the full might and power of the world's last remaining superpower behind her.

To follow through on the proposal outlined by the President would require the commitment of a large number of U.S. forces - forces that cannot be used for other missions, such as homeland defense - for an extended period of time. It will take time to confirm that Iraq's programs to develop weapons of mass destruction are well and truly destroyed. It will take time to root out all elements of Saddam Hussein's government, military, and security forces and to build new government and security elements. It will take time to establish a new and legitimate government and to conduct free and fair elections. It will cost billions of dollars to do this as well. And the forces to carry out this mission and to pay for this mission will come from the United States. There can be little question of that. If the rest of the world doesn't want to come with us at the outset, it seems highly unlikely that they would line up for the follow through, even though their own security might be improved by the elimination of a rogue nation's weapons of mass destruction. So, if the Congress authorizes such a mission, we must be prepared for what will follow.

The Congressional Budget Office has already made some estimations regarding the cost of a possible war with Iraq. In a September 30 report, CBO estimates that the incremental costs - the costs that would be incurred above those budgeted for routine operations - would be between $9 billion to $13 billion a month, depending on the actual force size deployed. Prosecuting a war would cost between $6 billion and $9 billion a month. Since the length of the war cannot be predicted, CBO could give no total battle estimate. After hostilities end, the cost to return U.S. forces to their home bases would range between $5 billion and $7 billion, according to CBO. And the incremental cost of an occupation following combat operations varies from about $1 billion to $4 billion a month. This estimate does not include any cost of rebuilding or humanitarian assistance. That is a steep price to pay in dollars, but dollars are only a part of the equation.

There are many formulas to calculate cost in the form of dollars, but it is much more difficult to calculate cost in the form of deaths. Iraq may be a weaker nation militarily than it was during the Persian Gulf war, but its leader is no less determined and his weapons are no less lethal. During the Persian Gulf War, the United States was able to convince Saddam Hussein that the use of weapons of mass destruction would result in his being toppled from power. This time around, the object of an invasion of Iraq is to topple Saddam Hussein, so he has no reason to exercise restraint.

The questions surrounding the wisdom of declaring war on Iraq are many and serious. The answers are too few and too glib. This is no way to embark on war. The Senate must address these questions before acting on this kind of sweeping use of force resolution. We don't need more rhetoric. We don't need more campaign slogans or fund raising letters. We need - the American people need - information and informed debate.

Before we rush into war, we should focus on those things that pose the most direct threat to us - those facilities and weapons that form the body of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program. The United Nations is the proper forum to deal with the inspection of these facilities, and the destruction of any weapons discovered. If United Nations inspectors can enter the country, inspect those facilities and mark for destruction the ones that truly belong to a weapons program, then Iraq can be declawed without unnecessary risk or loss of life. That would be the best answer for Iraq, for the United States, and for the world. But if Iraq again chooses to interfere with such an ongoing and admittedly intrusive inspection regime, then and only then should the United States, with the support of the world, take stronger measures.

This is what Congress did in 1991, before the Persian Gulf War. The United States at that time gave the United Nations the lead in demanding that Iraq withdraw from Kuwait. The U.S. took the time to build a coalition of partners. When Iraq failed to heed the UN, then and only then did Congress authorize the use of force. That is the order in which the steps to war should be taken.

Everyone wants to protect our nation and our people. To do that in the most effective way possible, we should avail ourselves of every opportunity to minimize the number of troops we put at risk. Seeking once again to allow the United Nations inspection regime to peacefully seek and destroy the facilities and equipment employed in the Iraqi weapons of mass destruction program would be the least costly and most effective way of reducing the risk to our nation, provided that it is backed up by a credible threat of force if Iraq once again attempts to thwart the inspections. We can take a measured, stepped approach that would still leave open the possibility of a ground invasion if that should become necessary, but there is no need to take that step now.

I urge restraint. President Bush gave the United Nations the opening to deal effectively with the threat posed by Iraq. The UN embraced his exhortation and is working to develop a new, tougher inspection regime with firm deadlines and swift and sure accountability. Let us be convinced that a reinvigorated inspection regime cannot work before we move to any next step, and let us if we must employ force, employ the most precise and limited use of force necessary to get the job done.

Let us guard against the perils of haste, lest the Senate fall prey to the dangers of taking action that is both blind and improvident.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Thu Dec 26th 2024, 03:12 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (01/01/06 through 01/22/2007) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC