Slain Tenn. Minister's Wife to Be Charged

[johnnie]

"SELMER, Tenn. - Tennessee authorities said they would charge a minister's wife with first-degree murder Friday, two days after he was found shot to death in a bedroom of the church parsonage.


Mary Winkler was found with the couple's three young daughters late Thursday in Orange Beach, Ala., 340 miles south of their home in Selmer.

"We've known from the beginning that she was either a suspect or a victim," said Jennifer Johnson, spokeswoman for the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060324/ap_on_re_us/pastor_slain


For some reason this all seems weird to me. I have a feeling there is a lot more to this story than meets the eye.

[Common Sense Party]

1. Can't trust religious people. They're all nuts.

:sarcasm:

[AllieB]

2. Abuse maybe, or an affair

I can't imagine why she would shoot her husband unless there was something nefarious going on. But then again, she could be nuts.

[BR_Parkway]

6. Jeebus told her to do it? Like the lady who cut off the baby's arms?

[mzmolly]

67. Satan told her to do it? Like Richard Ramirez?

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/notorious/ramirez/terror_1.html

http://www.crimelibrary.com/graphics/photos/serial_killers/notorious/ramirez/(AP)1a-Richard-Ramirez-headshot-(200).jpg

Crazy people are just plain crazy - no matter the particular delusion.

[maveric]

72. I'm thinking that he did domething to her or the kids, that set her off.

A saintly woman like that has to have a reason to whack her husband.

[johncoby2]

3. Mark my words: She was in an abusive relationship

You just watch......

[johnnie]

4. I'm kind of thinking that also

Or he met some young chick on MySpace. :shrug:

[Warpy]

7. Nah, women usually don't kill over affairs

although it does happen in very, very rare cases.

Usually when women kill, it's the culmination of years of abuse.

Men kill for affairs.

[johnnie]

9. Well, her youngest is 1

Postpartum Depression?

[Warpy]

15. Yes, that could be part of it, too

Who knows? I will reserve judgment until I'm called to sit on the jury.

[CanuckAmok]

5. that doesn't justify her actions.

throw the book at her.

[senseandsensibility]

11. Well, we don't know much about the case

now, so it's all speculation, but even so, if she's been suffering years of abuse that would be a mitigating factor in most people's minds. For all we know, it may have been self defense. It literally could be anything.

[CanuckAmok]

16. suffering from years of abuse is still no excuse.

There are phones, police, crisis centres, maybe family.

Flip the genders around, and see how sympathetic people would be.

[LostinVA]

25. None of those things can help you when you're in a

controlling, abusive relationship. They literally don't exist for you.

I'll flip the genders around: that rather happens to such an extent, but in any cases were it does, my statements would be the same.

[Malikshah]

30. Wow--just, wow.

There are phones, police, crisis centres, maybe family.

None of these work when a man is determined to control a woman by any means necessary.

None of them.

No information is out yet, though, so this debate/discussion should wait.

"Flip the genders"... Yup-- that'd simply show how little support a woman will get from the system.

[johnnie]

37. What should the woman do then?

I agree with you on what you say, but killing your abuser can't be made legal. I have known a few women that were in abusive relationships and I would always suggest them getting help. None of them do, they just figure that one day the abuse will stop.

[Clark2008]

58. I don't think it should be made legal, either

I think there can be lesser-included charges; however, we're NOT sure if the woman even shot her husband, but if she did, and she shot him when he was abusing her or the children, then it's self-defense, period.

Protecting a child is self-defense on the part of parent in many states.

[CanuckAmok]

40. well, they do work.

Unless he handcuffed her to the plumbing every time he left the house, or unless he was with her 24/7 for years, she had opportunities to seek help. Believing the abuse will eventually stop is no excuse to not seek help.



There is a double standard bsed on gender in these cases. If a man were to kill his wife because of years of her psychologically or physically abusing him, he'd get life. But when it's a woman, it's often assumed that she had no choice. I don't buy it.

This enabling mentality is actually doing female victims of violence a dis-service.

Take Lorena Bobbit for example; she cut of her husband's dick, and it was an international joke. If he'd sewn her vagina shut, who'd be laughing?

In 1993 in Canada, a woman was put on trial for being part of the kidnapping, raping and killing of two teenaged girls. She used the "victim" defence, when it was revealed that she was left alone with one of the victims for hours at a time when her husband was out of the house. She said she didn't release the girl or seek help because she was terrified of his reprisal when he got home. Luckily the jury didn't buy it.

[progressivebydesign]

39. You've never been in a truly abusive relationship. It screws up your mind

If you had, you'd never post that so flippantly. If that turns out the be the case, yes.. she should face some sort of consequence, but you have NO idea how badly the mind gets warped when you are subject to abuse on a daily basis, moreso verbal than physical, actually. You become beat-down, your rational mind really disappears, as you live in a world where someone who pledged to love and cherish you is telling you daily what a terrible person you are, and that no one likes or loves you. Outsiders would think, as you do, that you'd simply call someone or leave the person, but the victim has been groomed to believe that they cannot seek help, do not deserve help, and no one would believe them. It's so easy to say.. 'call someone', but anyone who works with abused women will tell you, it's not so easy. AND.. if this were the case with this couple, it would be a classic case of a well liked, popular, man being accused by his wife, who is usually window dressing for men in power... if she was being abused, SHE would be the one to lose everything.. as the parish would stand by him.

She may have just killed the man just to kill him. But it's pretty rare that a woman kills her husband without some sort of provocation, mental illness, or depression issues. We shall see.

[CanuckAmok]

41. Actually, I have.

So don't assume I'm being flippant, because you don't know me or my history.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bigwillq]

18. Come on

none of us know what was going on in her head or in her marriage. Someone below mentioned the idea that the father could possibly have sexually abused the children. For some mothers, that is motive enough to kill. We really don't know what's going on yet. It's too early to judge anyone in this case.

[LostinVA]

21. Psychosis would explain and legally pardon her actions

As she would be legally insane.

I'm reserving judgment either way until more comes out.

[seabeyond]

44. not a matter of justifying. could be a reason though

doesnt mean she shouldnt be punished. with all facts taken in and a representitive punishment for her crime. a crime of murder.

there are relationships where the male is so controlling and abusive that there is the fear of death for the wife and for the children. that is valid. it is real.

i have also seen at least one woman that is equal to the male in abuse in a relationship. i admired the male greatly that he was harrassed by cops, and abused in the legal system, and all kinds of things this woman was capable of doing to fuck up another person life. if this man had shot the woman, to end the decade of abuse, not just to himself, but more importantly to the child he was trying to protect, and couldnt, i could understand. but again, that isnt the answer, not legal, and cannot be. i would want all considerations to be taken into consideration before the punishment though. lke, ten years of trusting and working adn paying in our system, and not squat being done to this woman.

[CanuckAmok]

46. I agree with you.

The sad reality is that if the man you describe in your example did kill his wife, there would be absolutely no discourse like this about it. He would be "just another abusive husband", and that would be that. He would have to pay for the sins of admittedly thousands of men before him, solely because of our society's preconceived ideas of what "abuse" is, and who abusers are.

Someone I know was struck by his commonlaw girlfriend during an argument. She knocked him cold with an iron, and he needed nine stitches. When he was being treated in emerg, the staff were cracking jokes about it in his presence: "That'll teach you to leave the toilet seat up. Yuk yuk.", etc. The police didn't even charge his girlfriend, because this was 15 years ago, beofe it was even considered that women were capable of spousal abuse. Apparently, not much has changed since then, at least in the perceptions of the general public.

[progressivebydesign]

38. My take was abusive, controlling, relationship or..

could it be too late for postpartum depression? Her daughter is 1 year old? Usually, when I see a story of someone "charismatic", and in some position of influence, I usually think verbal abuser, or controlling personality. I was married to someone like that, the county where I lived and he performed LOVED him SO much! At home, out of the glare of his adoring fans, he was verbally abusive and eventually physically abusive, and that would have shocked everyone around us, as he was SOOO funny and charismatic and popular.

I'm not talking ill of the victim in this, I"m just hazarding a guess, based on past experiences. Frankly, he really could have been a wonderful husband, and it could be that she simply wanted him dead. And.. sometimes, yes, women do kill over affairs.. I remember that happened years ago in Santa Barbara.

[Clark2008]

52. I'm almost positive of it.

I know of this lady (she's from Knoxville, where I live - and we share some acquaintances) and the gossip - and that's all it is at this point - is that there was some abuse going on. I'm not sure if it was of the physical variety toward her and/or the kids or if he was becoming more demanding in that fundie sort of way they have, but it's abuse.

[Lars39]

56. A very small Church of Christ in rural TN can be very controlling

and oppressive, and preachers in that small a place wield an immense amount of power.

[Clark2008]

59. Yes. The Church of Christ is a small community even in

larger cities.

The only reason I know who this woman is, is because I went to school with numerous people of this faith. They generally live and work near their church and the largest such church in Knoxville is in my neighborhood. I have many friends and acquaintance of this faith as a result.

But you're correct in that the minister wields a lot of power. It's kind of like watching a movie or documentary about the Amish: a similar situation.

[Lars39]

61. I was a member for a few years.

Thank my stars daily I moved on. A preacher in a community as small as Selmer has celebrity status.

[Clark2008]

69. He's being described that way, you know?

All the parishoners interviewed are saying he was "charismatic" and "the best preacher we ever had" and that he was "wonderful" and "loved."

Sounds like a case of star-worship to me. I doubt, if the rumors are true regarding abuse, that anyone would have believed her for her to seek help. *sigh*

[Lars39]

70. I fear she won't get a decent trial in that area.

If I was her lawyer, I'd get the trial moved to Memphis or Nashville if I could.
Jackson is still too close.

[mzteris]

8. you thinking what *I'm* thinking?

Found in "a" bedroom?

uh-huh.

How old are those daughters again?

[johnnie]

10. 1,6 and 8 n/t

[Binka]

14. Right Not Their Bedroom A Bedroom

My money is on sexual abuse.

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

22. I wasn't....but now that you posted it...

You may have guessed it...I hope that's not true though.

[Pathwalker]

71. I wonder if she caught him in the act itself?

Would explain a LOT.

[bigwillq]

12. I feel so badly for the kids.

First they lose their father and most likely they will lose their mother too.
It was a bad decision on the mother's part but we don't know what was going on in her head or in her marriage.


But with that being said....it's not national news, imo. People get killed everyday and it's not all over the news. Move on.

[GreenPartyVoter]

13. Well-put

[bigwillq]

23. Thank you (nt)

[emdee]

19. Well, to be fair...

they were also covering another "suspicious" package found in a car in CA! Have any of the latest suspicious packages, yet, turned out to be anything?!?!

Anything at all to keep from covering the elephant in the room, I guess.

emdee

[bigwillq]

20. There was also that suspicious package

that turned up in a sports arena in Utah, I believe, that delayed the start of one of the NCAA basketball tournament games. It turned out to be a false alarm. :eyes:

[emdee]

26. And the one thrown over the White House fence a few days ago....

I was home, I promise! :rofl:

Turned out it was a guy who regularly throws stuff over the fence - and our "journalists" of the day didn't find that out until the end of a long day of reporting on it. Uh Huh - I'll bet the Secret Service knew immediately.

All of these "suspicious" packages are supposed to make us scared enough to want to keep Bush in office but the talking point "We haven't been attacked since 9/11" is still being used.

Babs is probably the one throwing stuff over the fence for her baby.

emdee

[bigwillq]

29. I don't think as many people

are falling into this trap anymore.
It's about damn time.


""All of these "suspicious" packages are supposed to make us scared enough to want to keep Bush in office but the talking point "We haven't been attacked since 9/11" is still being used.""

[emdee]

49. I hope you are right. nt

nt

[johnnie]

24. But

If we moved on from every story that we would like to discuss on here, this place would be dead. I just thought I would post this for a discussion.

[bigwillq]

28. But some discussions

are worth talking about!

Thanks for posting this! :)

[johnnie]

34. 33 posts already

Lol.. :)

Seriously though, this story just caught my attention. I don't know if it is even on TV because I don't watch the news on TV. I saw this yesterday when they found the preacher and then saw where they are charging the wife today.

People killing people happens all the time, but I think because of the little girls involved and the way the people that knew the family talked about them, it is an interesting case.

I would have tried to start the discussion in out True Crimes forum, but only a few of us go there these days.

[bigwillq]

35. I know. Here I am

saying how it's not news and to move on and I keep posting in this darn thread! :banghead:

But this discussion is kind of interesting! :)

[raccoon]

42. I tried that and got no responses.

And yes, apparently few go there these days.

[johnnie]

43. I just saw yours over there

I tried to get it going, and others too. Then again, there are no really big cases.

[Clark2008]

57. The Amber alerts were all over those big electronic signs

that announce road construction/wreck over the Interstate here in Tennessee yesterday. I went to my local newspaper online to read what was going on.

Then, after I realized who the woman was (recognized her maiden name), I called some friends and probably would NOT have turned them in if I'd seen them after what I heard, which, granted, was gossip.

Let's just put it this way: the largest Church of Christ church is in my neighborhood, which is next to the neighborhood I grew up in and I have several friends of that faith because I went to school with them.

[emdee]

17. I live near Selmer, TN

CNN is supposed to show a news conference in about 30 minutes (10:30 am Central time).

It's very strange to see little bitty Selmer on CNN - of course, I live in a "littler-bittier" town than that even.

emdee

[LostinVA]

27. Post what they say, please

[emdee]

48. The news conference is late...

this is another thing they do that bugs me. They talk and talk and wait and wait while repeating the same information. The news conference is held up until the paperwork is completed.

Evidently, she is still in Alabama but has agreed to be returned to Tennessee. They are filing first-degree murder charges against her which have to be served on her in Alabama and then the paperwork has to return to TN before the news conference. So, they are staying right on the site most of the time rather than going on to other issues (debt, war, more suspicious packages) until the news conference begins.

They did say that she has given a reason for her actions but they aren't calling it a "confession." :shrug:

The kids are in Alabama child services care but the father's family is trying to get them. I would go absolutely nuts waiting on the system to hand over those kids.

emdee

[LostinVA]

53. Thanks!

[emdee]

64. News Conference only changed one detail....

it is now being called a confession.

emdee

[Ron Green]

31. This is just another "true crime" diversion story to keep people from

thinking about Creeping Fascism.

That is all.

[bigwillq]

32. Yup (nt)

[Clark2008]

60. I'll probably actually be interested in this one

since I sort of know the wife.

But, I can agree with your position en toto.

Most of these "true crime" stories ARE news-worthy, but generally should only remain newsworthy to people in that particular city or state. However, I can envision Rita Skeeter on MSNBC doing hours and hours and hours on this case. :puke:

[BurtWorm]

33. Reese Witherspoon will be great in the movie.

[bigwillq]

36. It just might win her

another Oscar! :)

[SoCalDem]

47. This is national news, because????

I know it's a very sad occurence in THAT single family and for their friends, but stories like this, launched into the national arena, are the main problem with our so-called media.

Unless there is a cluster of minister-killings, and they suspect a serial killer, and are trying to warn the public, these stores are little more than a "reality show"...pure voyeurism..

:puke:

[emdee]

50. It is getting more coverage than the Cheney shooting, for sure. nt

nt

[johnnie]

62. Well

Three missing children seemed to be more of the story yesterday. A man was found murdered and his wife and three little girls were missing. They put out an Amber alert and now they found them.

[SoCalDem]

68. Amber alerts are great.. That's entirely a different matter

BUT even amber alerts are often local/state issues..
Grisly murder stories like this are just for the sensationalism.. They pretty much knew she did it, from early-on.. This is a local story..

finding children who might have crossed state lines IS worthy of national coverage..

[Vinnie From Indy]

51. Shouldn't this be posted in the "Who gives a rat's ass" Forum?

More bloody chum thrown to the weak minded by BushCo media to distract from the gargantuan crimes being committed daily by this administration.

[Clark2008]

65. Well, I do, but I don't, generally.

I do in this case because I know of the woman from friends and it's in Tennessee.

Maybe it should be sent to the Tennessee forum? :shrug:

[johnnie]

66. You don't need to read it

This is a discussion forum. There is a General discussion politics forum too you know.

[ecstatic]

54. I'm sure she had good reason for the murder. maybe years and years of

abuse. I wish CNN would stop the 24 hr coverage of this story!

[jarab]

63. And, MAYBE, he's better off after having tolerated all those

years of abuse at HER hands. Who the fuck knows?

I'm sure of one thing. Any scum lawyer will have to conjure some abuse strategy after the fact - whether true or not.
In the Democratic Party there are No criminals ... just fucking excuses. Why do we excuse every "criminal" act as medically or psychologically induced? Sometimes, certain people are just not worth breathing the air, and excuses are lame.
I'm glad she had a gun if he was indeed miserable. Try that one on for HIS need to die a quick death.
My theory is as good as another given the total lack of available information. Sheesh !!
...O...

[cynatnite]

55. MSNBC reports she confessed to shooting her husband n/t