On AAR: "I'm not concerned about *'s circumventing the Constitution

[Ladyhawk]

because he's a Christian."

I almost fell off my chair laughing. My other choice would have been to cry for a lot longer.

Discuss

[BrklynLiberal]

1. These "believers" would be funny if they were not so scary!!!

:scared:

[Beelzebud]

2. Please Jesus, protect me from your followers.

[degreesofgray]

3. Because, as we all know

Christianity is a free ticket to breaking the law.

[AndyTiedye]

4. Who Said That?

We know the Repugs want to impose a theocracy on us, but they usually aren't so obvious about it.

[Ladyhawk]

7. The last caller on the Al Franken Show being hosted by Sam Seder.

It actually had to do with limits to the Patriot Act signed into the act itself, which Bush said he doesn't have to abide by. But by not staying within his role defined by the Constitution, the weed is saying he is above it and above any law.

I just wanted to add that to clarify. :)

[BOSSHOG]

5. So the "christian" will not abide by a piece of paper

he affixes his signature to? Wow real honest. Nor will he testify under oath? Any American who says bush is a "christian" is a fucking dumbass, ignorant, constitution hating bastard.

[Ladyhawk]

14. Well, BOSSHOG, I've decided to let people label themselves.

I think it's quite possible shrub believes he is a "Christian." I know a lot of people who sincerely call themselves "Christians" who believe the same way shrub does. The dogmatic Christian right are very religious and very serious about imposing their beliefs on the rest of us. Saying they aren't Christians isn't going to help the matter much.

Jesus as described in the Bible was a contradictory figure. According to him, if you don't believe, you'll go to hell. Eternal torment is even worse than the genocide practiced on the Canaanites at the behest of the Old Testament god. Jesus wasn't much of a pacifist, either, if you're to believe this verse:

Luk 19 : 27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay before me.

Yes, that's Jesus speaking. Combine the violent Old Testament god with Jesus's bizarrely contradictory teachings and Paul's homophobia and misogyny and you get a really whacked-out religion, at least for those who claim bible inerrancy and literalism. The whole thing is so contradictory that it's easy to find verses supporting your own prejudices. The inconvenient "love thy neighbor" verses can be explained away.

However, when I was a fundamentalist Christian, liberal Christians were the first to reach me. I discovered that there are many kinds of Christians. It made it especially hard to swallow because these liberal Christians were kind and patient with me. :) I probably wasn't very easy to get along with. I consistently got the highest grades in my class and very vocally challenged anything the professors said. Still, over the course of my education, they made an impact which eventually allowed me to question anything and everything. My own decision was to discard religion entirely.

One thing we have to keep in mind: These fundy Christians are deadly serious about what they believe. Whether or not * believes is up in the air as far as I'm concerned, but the right-wing Christians believe in him. Now THAT is scary.

[BOSSHOG]

18. Very scary

and I was not referring to you in my post. I have an incredibly hard time justifying the citizenship of those who would destroy the constitution based on their religious beliefs. They want to pass laws which will have no effect on them all because they hate certain segments of our society. A president of the United States who says he is a "christian" can surely be targeted as such by his actions. I saw a great relative bumper sticker, "Don't tell me you are a christian, let me figure it out all by myself." I stopped going to Mass because every Sunday the Priest always had time to trash those not in the audience and direct his flock who to hate and how.

[Ladyhawk]

30. It's very sad to me.

Even though I am an atheist, I realize that it is unrealistic (and hypocritical, too, probably) to expect everyone to arrive at the same conclusion I made. I saw Sam Harris interviewed in the documentary The God Who Wasn't There and what he had to say scares me. People who believe that if they die and kill in the name of their god they will go to eternal bliss are very, very dangerous. This includes fundamentalists of all the Abrahamic religions: Christians, Muslims, Jews. I'm sure it also includes other dogmatic religions.

There seems to be a psychological need in some people to believe things they can't prove in order to remove fear: mostly fear of death and fear of things out of their control. They seem to need assurance that everything is fine now and will be fine after they die, as well. This same fuzzy thinking leads to fuzzy thinking in other areas. "Faith is not the result of fuzzy thinking; it is the cause of it," Dan Barker wrote in Losing Faith in Faith. If a person really believes that killing infidels will get him or her into heaven, all bets are off. So what if they destroy the world with nukes? This world is not their home; they're just a'passin' through. Their treasures are laid up somewhere beyond the blue. :(

So, what do we do? There will always be adherents to fundamentalist religions and I have a damned hard time telling them they shouldn't think the way they do because I hate it when they do the same thing to me. However, I am worried their fuzzy thinking is going to be the death of us all.

I also find myself being very angry with them (hating them?) and I don't want to feel that way. Part of me feels sorry for them, but it's hard to feel sorry for people whose ideals might destroy the planet.

What a conundrum. I don't know how to fix it.

[SPKrazy]

32. Two Things I Dislike About People Who Quote Scripture:

1. Those that take it literally (like you said)
and
2. Those that take a line out of context (like you've done, taking a line from a parable about the conversion of Zaccheus)

Fundies take scripture out of context to suit their needs at the moment.

Liberal Christians take nothing out of context and study the Gestalt of the reading, look at the symbolism, and the context it was written, look at other gospels or scripture that references this to determine meaning.

That is not to say that the bible isn't full of contradictions and homophobia, and misogyny.

The bible is a book, parts may have been divinely inspired (or not depending on your beliefs) but it is a literary masterpiece in many ways. It has stood the test of time, and those who wanted to destroy it.

It stretches back several thousand years to show us how cultures, centuries ago, believed in a monotheistic God. In context you realize that these were desert nomads, people who had all kinds of backgrounds in spiritual beliefs, in a time when people were tuned into the natural rhythm of life much more than we are today.

Anyway, I respect your decision to be an atheist, can you please respect those who are not fundies who choose to believe in a spiritual dimension to life?

[SammyWinstonJack]

17. Any American who THINKS bush is a "christian" is a

fucking dumbass, ignorant, constitution hating bastard. Oh and delusional too! bush's "christianity" is as fake as his Texas accent is.

[BOSSHOG]

19. And as fake as his woodpile

[SammyWinstonJack]

22. Yeah, that too! And as fake as his brush clearing photo ops complete

with dirty T-shirt. :rofl:

[BOSSHOG]

24. I'd wear his sorry ass out

in one afternoon on my one acre of land raped by Katrina. We are somewhat of a standstill in South Mississippi because there is still a burn ban on (justifiably so.) All the big stuff is gone but the brush piles are getting bigger. Come on down george, I'll pay ya 10 bucks an hour.

[SammyWinstonJack]

25. First I am sorry to hear of your property being affected by Katrina.

:hug: And paying george 10 bucks an hour is overpaying him. :rofl: You wouldn't get your money's worth there.

[BOSSHOG]

26. We're doing alright

We lost lots of trees and now have more sunshine in the back two thirds of our property. Once we get it cleaned up it will be fine and dandy. Just very minor damage to the house.

He'd probably want to be paid in advance, then slip on down to the gas station and get a twelve-pack.

[SammyWinstonJack]

28. Well that is good to hear!

:-). A tweleve pack, a good start for george, gateway to the hard stuff. :evilgrin:

[Ladyhawk]

21. The fundy Christians don't think liberal Christians are real

Christians, either. :shrug:

This is just splitting hairs.

Whether or not * is acting like a fundy Christian or really is one, he is telling his religious base what they want to hear. There are a lot of people who really believe this crazy right-wing religious tripe. I live in a town full of them.

On another forum there was argument as to whether Hitler was really a Christian or just pretended he was in order to get German Christians to go along with him. The point is moot, don't you think? Most of those who happily executed Jews, homosexuals, gypsies, etc. were Catholic or Lutheran Christians. You can say they weren't "real" Christians until you're blue in the face, but they thought they were.

Fundy Christians can say liberal Christians aren't real Christians until they are blue in the face, but the liberal Christians believe they're true Christians.

As an atheist outsider, these accusations by various kinds of Christians toward one another--"they aren't REAL Christians"--would be amusing if the stakes weren't so very high. It just reinforces my view that religion divides rather than unites. I just hope we all--religious or otherwise--can find a way to get along with one another before it's too late.

[0rganism]

6. I saw a good response to this kind of thinking yesterday

"You put your hand on the bible and swore to uphold the constitution. You didn't put your hand on the constitution and swear to uphold the bible."
edit -- quote is from Jamie Raskin, professor of law at AU, March 1, 2006, in a legislative hearing about gay marriage

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=731555
http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/raskin.asp

[walldude]

27. Now that is a great quote! Keeoing that one! n/t

[Ladyhawk]

31. I'll have to remember that one. :) Thanks. n/t

[Emit]

8. OMG! That reminds me of this animated video I posted last night

One of the strangest Bush animations I've seen yet

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=740434&mesg_id=740434

[liam_laddie]

9. more paper

Hey, the Bible is just a bunch of pieces of paper (well, okay, parchment
and vellum and papyrus...) so why should George base any opinions
or polices on that old thang? I mean it's so old! The Constitution
(1787) and FISA (1978) are...heh, heh...kinda old now, too, so..heh, heh
we don't need no stinkin' laws on paper...

[unblock]

10. i'm not concerned about serial killers either.

at least not the ones who are christian.
the rest should fry, though.

:sarcasm:

[FlaGranny]

11. Actually, I would have

liked Seder to ask, "What has Bush done that makes you believe he is Christian?"

[The_Casual_Observer]

12. What makes them think jr is christian?

because he says so? jr says a lot of things.

[LaPera]

13. Hillary is a Christian would it be OK for her to change the Constitution?

The liar Bush knows, lying about being a Christian, (and how in the fuck is this killer a "Christian") brings in an extra 20 million votes all around this country...Bush will lie and pander to any group that votes, and sends in millions in donations to him and the republican party.

Bush's actions speak louder than his bullshit words!!!

[SeattleGirl]

15. Sometimes laughter is the best medicine. Otherwise

there'd be a whole lot of us ready for the mental wards.

[Ladyhawk]

16. Yep. These people are serious, which makes them seriously nuts.

I'm around them on a day-to-day basis and I have to keep reminding myself that although they seem normal they are NOT to be trusted. The last fundy I trusted will hopefully be the last one to backstab me.

[wryter2000]

20. Ye gods

I heard that moron. For a minute, I thought he was one of Sam's plants. You can't parody this stuff.

[aden_nak]

23. The Spanish Inquisition was performed by Christians.

And that is not an attack of Christianity. That's a simple statement of fact meant to illustrate a point: That people who believe they are doing god's work can inadvertently wind up serving a much crueler master.

[walldude]

29. Oh god this guy was dumb as a post...

He started by saying "now I don't want you to think I'm a conservative, I really like your show. But we..." Sam: "We who?" "The conservatives... think using Hitler comparisons takes away your credibility". Sam: "Um.. I never brought up Hitler," then Sam proceeds to run off quotes from the administration comparing people to Hitler, it was beautiful. Then the idiot made that comment that we should trust Bush because he's a Christian. What's scary is these people are ready to give up their freedom to this man. I bet if the administration came out and said "we are going to implant ID chips in all Americans to insure your saftey" these morans would be lining up.