Huge crowds march against immigration bill

[im10ashus]

PHOENIX, Arizona (AP) -- Thousands of immigrant rights supporters filled a major Phoenix thoroughfare Friday morning as they marched toward the office of U.S. Sen. Jon Kyl in a rally call for a more humane reform of immigration laws.

"They're here for the American Dream," said Malissa Greer, 29, who joined the crowd estimate by police to be at least 10,000 strong. "God created all of us. He's not a God of the United States, he's a God of the world."

Lawmakers have been considering bills that, among other things, would make it a felony to be illegally in the United States, impose new penalties on employers who hire illegal immigrants and erect fences along one-third of the U.S.-Mexican border.

The proposals have angered many in the Hispanic community.

On Thursday, more than 10,000 people filled the streets of Milwaukee in what was billed as "A Day Without Latinos" to protest efforts in Congress to target undocumented workers.

Hundreds of Los Angeles students walked out of their schools Friday morning to call attention to immigration issues.

cont'd...
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/03/24/immigration.protest.ap/index.html

[pstans]

1. We had over 100 in Iowa a couple weeks ago

The wind chill was close to 0 degrees out. It was very cold. There were well over 100 people at the candlelight vigil support a fair and compassionate immigration policy. I tried to count the people, but my fingers were too cold.

[im10ashus]

2. I didn't hear about that.

And in Iowa nonetheless. That's wonderful! :hi:

[Critters2]

52. No. It isn't

The lower wages brought by illegal immigration are doing real damage to rural Iowa. Who do you think works for DeCoster? And why?

[Name removed]

62. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[papau]

3. Dems need to get behind McCain/Kennedy on this - follow Hillary's lead

As the Bush/GOP criminalize Good Works - We have Hillary/Church fighting back for both security on our borders and fairness to immigrants.

Hillary Clinton (D-NY) said this week, "It is certainly not in keeping with my understanding of the Scripture because this bill would literally criminalize the Good Samaritan and probably even Jesus himself."


The most comprehensive reform proposal on the table -- the Secure America and Orderly Immigration Act proposed by Sens. Edward Kennedy (D-MA) and John McCain (R-AZ) -- http://immigration.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.shusterman.com/cgi%2Dbin/ex%2Dlink.pl%3Fthomas.loc.gov/cgi%2Dbin/query/z%3Fc109:S.1033:
includes a responsible plan to help undocumented workers become lawful, tax-paying members of our society. To earn citizenship, individuals would have to apply for a six-year temporary status, have a job, pay taxes, obey the law, learn English, and pay a $2,000 penalty for having come here illegally. Nor could they "cut in front of the more than 3 million 'green card' applicants who have obeyed the law." This is a rigorous but fair process. Many conservatives, however, including President Bush, support a limited temporary "guest worker" program, which allows undocumented to apply only for a six-year temporary residency. This strategy is impractical and irresponsible on its face: undocumented workers will have little incentive to expose their illegal status if they face mandatory deportation after just six years. It is also unpopular. According to a Time poll, the overwhelming number of Americans (76 percent) favor gaving undocumented individuals a path to earned citizenship.

[cantstandbush]

7. I think this is a losing issue for Dems. The protestor aren't voters.

I'm sorry, but most of the American public is not behind "amnesty." It's just the facts, folks. Flame me is you must but at some point even Dems have to face up to the facts of this issue.

[im10ashus]

14. How is this a losing issue?

We have to face the facts - we are going to have immigrants here - legally or not. How do you know the protester's aren't voters? I have seen a few threads/responses from DUers where they have attended rallies in Iowa and Wisconsin.

[Critters2]

55. Someone has to work in the factory farms

to keep your meat prices low. Not a good thing.

[im10ashus]

60. Well, I don't eat factory farmed meat, so that's a non-issue with me.

Don't you think we should make some reformations on immigration or do you think we should just seal the borders and not allow anyone into the country?

[Critters2]

67. I think we should pay workers a living wage

rather than bringing in people who will work as cheaply as possible.

[im10ashus]

70. I totally agree with you on that.

I have the same issues with labor. But I don't think we should seal our borders. :shrug:

[Critters2]

78. If we paid a decent wage, we wouldn't have to

American workers would take these jobs. Corporations want to underpay workers, and immigrants are willing to be underpaid. Paying a living wage would solve the problem. Why aren't you rallying for that?

[Strelnikov_]

206. Does The Following Story Ring A Bell?

Meatpacking jobs (in the midwest) paid a middle class wage ($20/hr) in the 70's. These jobs provided good health care and retirement benefits because they were unionized. As was related by a worker from this era, the social contract was that it was hard, dangerous work that left most workers crippled when they retired, and the compensation reflected this.

Over the 70's and 80's non-union plants were opened, and the unionized plants closed or the unions busted. As compensation was much lower at the non-union plants, U.S. citizens abandoned the industry, and the labor void was filled with immigrant's. Since the supply of this labor is virtually unlimited, compensation and workplace safety has plummeted.

The 70's era worker, in the interview I heard, indicated that there would be no problem attracting U.S. citizens to the industry if compensation and workplace conditions were similar to the 70's.

Here is an excerpt from a study that describes the change in the meatpacking industry in Storm Lake, Iowa:

Meatpacking And The Migration Of Refugee And Immigrant Labor To Storm Lake, Iowa
http://migration.ucdavis.edu/cf/comments.php?id=154_0_2_0

The Hygrade workforce was primarily male and of European descent. Only in its last few years of operation, in the late l970s to early 1980s, did a few women work on the plant floor. The plant’s workforce was from Storm Lake and surrounding communities. Prior to the mid-1980s, Storm Lake was almost exclusively Anglo, and this homogeneity was reflected in Hygrade’s workforce. Many of Hygrade’s workers put in thirty years or more at the plant, reflecting a low turnover. For many, their jobs supported a comfortable, middle-class lifestyle. Average annual incomes were about $30,000, but some senior workers earned up to $40,000 or more in Hygrade’s last year of operation.

In October 1981, Hygrade closed its plant and Storm Lake lost five hundred jobs. Community leaders immediately set about attracting a new buyer for the plant.

In April 1982 IBP announced its purchase of the plant for $2.5 million. After extensive renovation, this became the company's first pork-packing facility (IBP previously had processed only beef.) IBP’s move into pork processing signaled a major transformation of the industry.

When IBP opened its doors in September 1982, its workforce did not resemble the old Hygrade crew. Hundreds of former Hygrade workers applied, but fewer than thirty were hired. IBP would look beyond the Storm Lake community for its laborers. Beginning wages were only $6 an hour, and health benefits become available only after six months on the job. (Today, starting wages are $7 an hour.) The new plant had higher productivity expectations than the old plant. Injury rates climbed, and high employee turnover increased the strain on local labor supplies.


It appears to me that (uncontrolled) immigrant labor fills a void that it perpetuates, low wages that make the jobs undesirable due to an oversupply of labor, the classic supply/demand relationship. All the current immigration policy of this country does is create a black market for labor, exploiting those who are here illegally, and driving down the wages and working conditions so for legal residents and immigrants the job is a step backward.

Of course, from the lofty perch of a tenured teaching position or defined benefit/trust fund annuity, the impact of the labor black market on the middle and lower class working people of this country seems to be, well, no problem at all.

[Critters2]

258. That's the Iowa I know and mourn for

Requiring employers to pay a living wage would solve the problem. Of course, it would cause the cost of meat to rise, and we wouldn't want that!

[TheFarseer]

454. no they aren't

if you fine the holy sh*t out of anyone who employees illegal immigrants then no one will hire them and they will have no reason to come here. problem solved. but no one will touch corporations like that because who the hell do you think funds their campaigns? If you think immigrants are only taking jobs no one else wants, you aren't living in reality and you're not even TRYING to pay attention.

[Bridget Burke]

17. Some of them are voters.

"They're here for the American Dream," said Malissa Greer, 29, who joined the crowd estimate by police to be at least 10,000 strong. "God created all of us. He's not a God of the United States, he's a God of the world."

Odd how we're always being warned about "losing issues."

[mitchtv]

290. Watch and see when the MexAms get angry, here in SoCal

You'll see voters and they won't be voting red
there was a very large Demo here today in Coachella Valley.They don't want to be criminalized, as everyone has a relative or 2 who came over.They are attacking Mexican American citizens, along with their church

[EFerrari]

18. Ah, how do you know those protestors aren't voters?

THIS is how you lose the Latino vote. With THIS kind of thinking.

[fooj]

25. They are out there in the streets...

Americans...grab a fucking clue!!!!!!!!!!!

Peace.

[flyarm]

218. AHHH MY HUSBAND IS HISPANIC AND I ASSURE YOU NOT ONLY DOES HE VOTE..HE PUT

up big bucks in the 2004 election for kerry! and he gives big bucks for congress people..

his father was an immigrant and worked in the caves of this country, was in Pearl Harbor underground building the oil tanks when it was hit and his mom and dad both served our armed services!
his entire family votes dem..and they all go out and vote! and work for candidates!

do not assume hispanics don't vote , you would loose that assumption!

fly

[suffragette]

26. Thanks sfexpat2000. I was going to post the same comment,

then saw you already had.

Couldn't say it any better than you did.

[EFerrari]

36. I'm sorry to be shrill. But let's all try to get clear on this one.

1. The population that crosses back and forth between here and Mexico have been doing that since before this country existed and since before the United States launched a war of aggression against Mexico that gave the US the very states that are now having "trouble". :eyes:

2. The Latino community is a natural ally of working families and so, of the Democratic Party. They overwhelmingly share progressive values. Now, what I'm calling the "Latino Community" is not really a monolith. There are all kinds of views and political orientations but in sheer numbers, we are with you

3. Oh, but they are mostly Catholic and against abortion. Stop! If you know anything about Latino culture, you know one of the values we embrace is respecting the civil rights of other people.

4. Undocumented Latino workers are the natural allies of organized labor in this country. Where these groups have made alliances -- as in Los Angeles -- both groups have benefited.

Until Dems understand this as well as the lefter progressives have, the Republicans will play the issue like a Stradivarius and THEN it will be a losing, always losing unwinnable issue for the Dems.

:rant:

[suffragette]

49. You don't sound shrill at all to me.

You sound clear as a bell.

I think the RNC has been laying the groundwork for this issue to become the main divisive one of the midterm elections and the Democratic party and progressive groups need to wake up to that and not fall for it.

I'm beginning to wonder if some of the anti-immigrant threads and screeds which inevitably pop up on any thread to do with the topic are part of that attempt to test the issue and drive the wedge. And by the many posts from people who otherwise are progressive that concur with the anti-immigrant bias, we can see there is a wedge there to be driven.

The Democratic party has always been at its strongest when it is battling for the rights of people, for inclusion rather than exclusion. And that is at the core of this issue.

[EFerrari]

53. Exactly. And the way they pound the tip of the wedge in

is to divide workers.

When workers unite, we know that we win. Not just white workers, or brown workers, or Northern workers or women workers. All workers. They can't beat us unidos and that's why they want this wedge SO badly.

[suffragette]

72. That's it. They realize that the workers have more in common

than in difference and they fear our coming together. The bigger differences we have are between the workers and the corporate powers and those keeping them in power.

The last thing they want to happen is for us to unite. They fear the power that solidarity brings. They know what happened in Poland and in this, we are the Polish workers and they are the U.S.S.R.

That's why they've been working this issue.

Edited to add the words I left out the 1st time

[BuyingThyme]

57. This kind of dishonesty is disgusting.

Equivocating immigration with illegal immigration exposes dishonesty for what it is, and does nothing less than put an ugly shadow on legitimate debate.

[EFerrari]

75. I don't think I understand what you mean, and as I usually agree with you

ask for clarification.

[BuyingThyme]

89. Being anti-illegal immigration is not the same as being anti-immigrant.

This is a game played by dishonest people, and it's disgusting. With lies, they try to create divisions between people who need not be divided.

Logic wise, it's like saying that being in support automobile ownership is the same as being in support of automobile theft. Beyond nonsense.

[EFerrari]

120. Okay. This is my take: Illegal immigration

is a red herring designed to stir up the racist Thug base and totally avoid what is being done to the middle class and to the working class by focussing attention on brown people.

The aim is to try to divide workers. It's working pretty well.

Illegal means illegal, sure. But at bottom, that isn't the issue the Thugs want to solve with this bait.

/typos from hell

[BuyingThyme]

142. Yes, Republicans no longer have any conservative values,

so they have to use racism to play to the emotions of simpletons. Racism is all they have left.

But, at the same time, there are real issues which affect real people.

[EFerrari]

146. Yes! There ARE. But, notice: the Thug talking point

about brown people being the root of all evil / deprivation = dividing natural allies.

It's just really wierd to see DUers jumping all over poor people instead of recognizing our common cause. Because no matter how we cut it, it's dividing LABOR.

Maybe I should just take a break and stop pissing people off.

But I have to tell you, I love seeing those marches. Seeing mostly disenfranchised and exploited people having the sand to take to the street.

[BuyingThyme]

157. It's impossible for illegal immigrants to be disenfranchised.

Only citizens can be disenfranchised. That's what makes them citizens.

[EFerrari]

161. You're are making 2 assumptions.

One is about the composition of the march.

The other is about basic human rights.

/typin'

[Iris]

175. The way I see it, the disgusting game is being played by the Republicans.

The kind of "conservatives" they are trying to get really worked up over this do NOT make a distinction between illegal and legal immigrants. They hate all people who are different from them.

[EFerrari]

I believe you are right, Iris. n/t

[suffragette]

92. How is it dishonest?

I agree with having legitimate debate on this issue.
But I think that the RNC has seen an opportunity to use this issue as a wedge and is driving it between people, both those who generally disagree and those who otherwise do agree.

[BuyingThyme]

103. Direct me to some anti-immigrant bias in this thread.

BTW: By far, the largest threat to legal immigration is illegal immigration.

[suffragette]

118. I was noting that about the way it pops up on many threads on this issue,

not about anything I specifically saw in this thread. But if I wasn't clear, I apologize for that.

[im10ashus]

81. Not shrill at all.

In fact, that's a more succint way of putting it so people can understand it. Have I mentioned I love you? :hug:

[EFerrari]

85. Are you drinking on the job?

:)

:hug:

[im10ashus]

95. You mean for a change?

:-)

Don't I wish. But it's 5:30 here in Manhattan and I am heading home for a nice cold something with alcohol. I need to catch Stephanie outside and chat with her, but this conversation is getting good. I will be back on in a bit. :hi:

[EFerrari]

117. Cheers and thank you for this thread.

:hi:

[blondeatlast]

86. Excellent points. Thank you. nt

[im10ashus]

34. Amen, sister!

What the hell. Let's just shoot ourselves in the foot, or better yet, the head. "We can't win this. They aren't voters." It blows my mind. :shrug:

[proud2BlibKansan]

279. Well call me a simpleton but I don't care if they are voters or not

The DECENT thing to do is to welcome them and to help make their lives value. As for this wage debate, the guilty party is the employer, not the worker. What ever happened to Democrats working together to IMPROVE working conditions for laborers?

[im10ashus]

285. You are not a simpleton, my fellow DUer.

You are right on. It's NoT about getting votes. It's a human-rights issue. Let's not lose focus. Worker's rights.

[Critters2]

303. Yeah, whatever happened to that?

:eyes:

[kayice]

467. I live in Kansas and have worked with many honest, hard working

Mexicans that got their citizenship proudly when they were able to (surprise after 9/11). They learned the language, pay taxes, don't milk the system, raise good kids, and they were very kind to me as I was to them. (I became disabled a few years ago, and many still stay in touch with me.)

Frankly, it p.o.'d me when Gonzales got AG and they were so proud, then you had to explain that he really didn't have their best interests in mind. You could almost see the shame on their faces that one of their 'own' is like that.

Yes, they vote too, and they do influence the ones still applying for citizenship.

[im10ashus]

468. Thank you, kayice.

I appreciate a level-headed response. My condolences on your being disabled. How are you doing? :hug:

[kayice]

485. I'll survive, Mostly bad but I've already been to the bottom and .

forced to give up my pride and dignity, but not my mouth!

I know that some Mexicans may milk the system in big cities, I seen with it with Jehovah's' Witnesses types that milked the system where I worked. But for the most part, the ones I worked with, after 9/11---when they had a chance to obtain their citizenship, they studied and they were SO PROUD! You have to understand, these people are proud and they didn't get the chance in Mexico to even go to Jr. High. Think about this, I know for a fact---when their kids bring elementary school papers and books home, mom and dad are right there learning also. When one lady got her driver's license, we socked her husband in the arm and razzed his arse, but you could see the pride in his eyes.

I know for a fact that Mexicans may not have the education but they are not stupid, they know from working damn hard in the fields or whatever job they have where their pay is not equal because they are illegal.....they KNOW they are being MANIPULATED BY SOME RICH GUY MAKING A LOT OF MONEY FOR HIMSELF. In many ways, there are reminded, blackmailed and belittled by the those very people who do employ them for their own personal agenda and gains.

Perhaps, if they are told to apply for their citizenship (and they have to trust too); you might be surprised.

I had surgery back in 2002, and meanwhile the INS came in the place where I worked.....(I did office work also there) 4 or 5 people suddenly had new names then the ones they had before I left.... yet the employer let them continue working. Go figure. All of them did pay taxes all along but where was the SS taxes going for? When I asked my bosses, I was told 'don't worry about it'.

Same employer the very day of 9/11 that hiked his fuel prices up big time immediately, then found out the sheriff was taking names who in the county did that......."May I make a $500 donation to the Red Cross?" And to the employees.....a letter posted 'we grieve for the victims and their families....blah, blah....made mistake....DO NOT TALK ABOUT COMPANY BUSINESS AS STATED IN YOUR MANUEL.' Senator Sam Brownback is one of his buds.

[izzybeans]

73. I know what you call that kind of thinking

and...well...I'm speechless. not voters...this is laughable.

[blondeatlast]

88. Can we say the word on DU? I know the word I'm thinking.

Uglier than the F word, and said far too rarely even when appropriate.

[countryjake]

31. What makes you think those protesters "aren't voters"?

Dems should face up to the fact that they no longer support masses of people who work their fingers to the bone just to survive in this country!

The Americans who are against "amnesty" are being egged-on by the lackeys of our government who see the advantage in keeping working people divided over things like race or where someone was born. It was done with the Chinese and the Irish during the building of this nation's railroads...even the Okies suffered "origin discrimination" when starvation forced them to migrate to greener pastures.

The Democratic Party once stood strong and proud for Labor in this country and an attack on any working person back then was considered an attack on us all! As long as we ignore the strength that can be gained by unity within the working class and don't actively strike down the nationalistic, racist views that keep us all fighting amongst ourselves, you're right, it is a "losing issue". For everyone!

[proud2BlibKansan]

40. I sure disagree

Most of the people in this country are compassionate human beings who are repulsed by racism. Most Americans have ancestors who also immigrated to America to make a better life for their families. Many of our ancestors also came here illegally. Those are the facts in this issue.

[EFerrari]

44. That's what I keep saying. My people are the new Irish.

I should get free green beer for that, right?

lol

[proud2BlibKansan]

50. Well you would get free beer at my house

LOL

:hi:

[im10ashus]

56. How about a little sangria?

I make a mean sangria. :-)

[EFerrari]

63. I bet! And there's nothing like a 2X with some fresh goat stew.

Okay, that's over the top. But's birria is really, really good.

[im10ashus]

68. When I lived in San Antonio I dated a guy whose grandma made birria

I was not sure what to think of it, having grown up in the Midwest with all the crackers, but I tried. DELICIOUS. And it was great with Tecate. :-)

[EFerrari]

80. My head hurts just reading "Tecate"

lol

[Iris]

177. yes! This is the correlation I've been trying to point out everytime this

subject comes up. It was wrong then and it's wrong now.

[blondeatlast]

84. In that crowd, I guarantee they were overwhelmingly voters.

Google LULAC and La Raza.

BTW, I'm in Phoenix and know people who not only marched, but ORGANIZED the march.

[Ignacio Upton]

170. La Raza wants to have the southwestern states reunify with MEXICO!

They and the Aztec/Chicano nationalist group Aztlan should not be given legitimacy.

...That issue over the group aside. America is a sovereign country. We have the right to decide who becomes a citizen upon entering. Unfortunately, the xenophobic wing of the GOP looks like they're the ones talking about this issue, when it's perfectly acceptable to support tightening our borders for reasons that stem from the LEFT of the political spectrum. I want a country where American-born and legal immigrants can get honest well-paying, unionized jobs. Shame on corporations for hiring illegal immigrants as well, and shame on Vicente Fox for ENCOURAGING illegal immigration by giving out fucking pamphlets encouraging people on how to do it! The Mexicans treat Guatemalans like shit if they cross Mexico's southern border, but it's perfectly acceptable somehow for Fox to export the downtrodden of his country because he doesn't want to deal with them? With illegal immigration, your consumer goods will be cheaper, the poor of Mexico will be exploited in the U.S. for slave wages, and unions will ultimately continue to decline. All the while Bush and Fox benefit. Those two have in common a contempt for their country's poor.

[mitchtv]

296. Of course they should be denied legitimacy

California must be Independent from BC to BC
Baja to British Colombia

[EFerrari]

390. Lol! If things get much worse up here, MEXICO will build a wall.

:rofl:

[im10ashus]

391. Today is the march in Los Angeles.

We thought yesterday was "HUGH"? :-)

LOS ANGELES, California (CNN) -- As thousands of people were expected to protest legislation cracking down on illegal immigrants on Saturday, President Bush said he planned to toughen enforcement of immigration laws.

"America is a nation of immigrants, and we're also a nation of laws," Bush said in his weekly radio address.

"When illegal immigrants know they will be caught and sent home, they will be less likely to break the rules, and our immigration system will be more orderly and secure."

The president acknowledged it was an "emotional debate" but continued "America does not have to choose between being a welcoming society and being a lawful society."

cont'd...


http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/03/25/immigration/index.html?section=cnn_latest

[EFerrari]

432. Bushcr@p! I know many undocumented workers.

They try as hard as they can to just work and avoid any, any contact with law enforcement.

And that includes when they are assaulted, when they are raped, when they are ripped off for the ridiculous wages they get. :mad:

I bet it is an "emotional debate" for the impaired frat boy. :eyes:

Okay, will turn on cr@P not news. And have to scoot to work.

:hi:

[Critters2]

264. So why all the Mexican flags?

I really am curious about this.

[proud2BlibKansan]

286. Why do Italian restaurants have Italian flags?

Why did my Irish friend hang an Irish flag on his house last weekend?

It isn't that hard to understand why they had Mexican flags at their protest, now is it?

[Critters2]

289. Yeah, it is

This was protest to influence American policy. They weren't decorating an ethnic restaurant. Many here keep insisting that these are loyal American citizens with no intention but to voice their opinion. It makes no sense to fly a foreign national flag at such a setting--unless you aren't an American citizen. It wasn't a Cinco de Mayo parade, it was a protest of American policy.

So, try again...why all the foreign flags?

[proud2BlibKansan]

292. What is that flag you have for your avatar?

In case you hadn't noticed, this is a DIVERSE society. Just because immigrants want to be treated better doesn't mean they should forget their heritage.

[Critters2]

295. That's a state flag of Iowa

which is one of the United States. Maybe you hadn't heard. And I wouldn't fly it at a protest to influence policy in Minnesota. That wouldn't make sense.

[proud2BlibKansan]

299. So are you promoting Iowa or the USA?

You can't do both! :sarcasm:

[Critters2]

301. Sure I can

Unlike Mexico, Iowa is part of the USA.

So, was this an ethnic celebration or a political rally? And if an ethnic party, why do Democrats care? I didn't see long threads celebrating the size of any St. Patrick's Parades.

[proud2BlibKansan]

306. Ah but a huge part of the US was once part of Mexico

and much of the rest was Native American land. In fact, unless you are 100% Native American, your ancestors were most likely illegals.

And surely you know that saying about people who live in glass houses. :eyes:

[Critters2]

309. Actually, all of it was Native Land

and then some of it was Mexico, and some of it was French, and so forth. And being something other than Native doesn't mean your ancestors were illegal, or have you never heard of Ellis Island? People who came through there and other ports of entry were not illegal. One strain of my family came here other than through an authorized port of entry. Rather than undermine those already here, the men on that side of my family took no civilian jobs, until after the civil war. They fought on the Union side in the war, and were rewarded for their service with citizenship and 40 acres of land...which is still in my father's possession, and which a cousin farms.

So, I don't live in a glass house. My ancestors were not part of a wave of immigration encouraged by corporations to drive down the wages of workers and bust unions. How sad for you if your ancestors were.

[proud2BlibKansan]

361. Why is that sad?

Some of my ancestors snuck over here in the hold of a ship. They took jobs slave owners refused to assign to their slaves. Yes, my ancestors were treated worse than slaves. And they were illegal. I also have ancestors who were legal immigrants from England and they were slave owners. Then my great grandmother came here in the mid 1800s as a child from Germany. Her family came legally but she never learned to speak English because she and her siblings were refused admittance to the public schools in Iowa since they weren't 'Americans'.

So I can sit on all sides of this fence. The one thing all my ancestors had in common was wanting to give their families a better life. And I am damn grateful for that. It isn't the least bit sad. It is my heritage and it is quite diverse, kind of like this country. And I would like to believe that we have learned to treat immigrants, legal and illegal, better than many of mine were treated.

[im10ashus]

429. "Why is that sad?"

It is sad because we are seeing how the education system in this country has failed us.

Heaven forbid that poster did any fact-checking. :hi:

[proud2BlibKansan]

434. I am part of the education system

And as hard as we try, we can't force all of our kids to listen and learn.

[Critters2]

443. I don't believe you

Something doesn't ring true. My ancestors also spoke German in Iowa, and had no trouble going to publci school. German Americans were the majority in large parts of Iowa, and no one even considered turning them away from the schools. I've served in areas where Norwegian Americans were the majority and their ancestors attended publci schools, too. I'm from Davenport, which has always had a majority German population, and German Americans were never kept out of the public schools.

Do you think inventing "facts" makes you seem in solidarity with illegal immigrants?

[EFerrari]

427. Wow. Do you have some American history to learn.

Your kin came through Ellis Island?

What government set up Ellis Island?

Where did they get the authority to SET UP A GOVERNMENT?

And, so on.

Fair wages is the answer. Demonizing workers is not.

And, btw, your ancestors were answering the call of big business to "drive down wages of workers and bust unions."

There is a pattern here. :eyes:

[Critters2]

444. No my ancestors were excaping a drought and political oppression

They never worked for big business. They cleared farmland and worked it.

[Critters2]

446. I have a degree in American history

moran

[Scout1071]

404. They had a protest, not a parade.

Big difference.

Are you going to tell all those people driving around with those oval European stickers on their car that they are anti-American too?

[Critters2]

445. If they show up at a protest of American policies

waving French flags, I'm going to ask what gives.

Again, you haven't explained the logic behind it.

Oh, and it pisses off the people who are supporting this move by Congress and will bite immigrants and their supporters in the ass. Along with the Democratic Party next November.

[Iris]

172. And what are the "facts"?

Care to fill us in?

Because the way I see it, it's another example of the average man being duped by the Republicans once again. Last election it was gay-hating and now it's immigrant-hating. How is this any different than the way, say, the Irish were treated?

[Critters2]

456. Great

Now, when we lose in November, you'll have something new to feel smug about.

[im10ashus]

457. Oh sure.

This is going to cost us votes? Get a grip. I suppose you'd rather we follow the republican agenda? You do know this is a republican proposal don't you? The are trying to criminalize humanity.

[Critters2]

458. It's all a political game

and the Dems are on the losing side.

[im10ashus]

459. How are we on the losing side?

I don't see that. Elighten me.

[Critters2]

463. Pitting workers who can vote against workers who can't

and looking for all the world as if you're siding with those who can't is NOT a winning strategy. Karl must be ecstatic.

[im10ashus]

465. Karl is ecstatic because it's a republican bill and you are buying it.

My conscience is clean on this one. This bill is for all the big corporations. You, my dear critter, are sucking it up. Must suck to be you. :shrug:

[lovuian]

186. I'm with you this is a losing issue with Americans

Our system is being taken advantage of...

[Serial Mom]

4. In Milwaukee, they protested this - against senselessbrenner

the congressional rep from Milwaukee area who authored the bill.

Yet because most are Catholic, they vote (against abortion) in high numbers (based on Milwaukee area voting number last fall) for repukes!

When are the people going to stop being sheeple voting for creeps such as him based on one-issue, a wedge issue at that?!?!?

[EFerrari]

6. How do we know they voted against abortion?

Remember, after 2004, the Thuggery claimed they got the Latino vote (because they needed to find 3 million new votes for Junior) and that turned out to be an outright lie.

[Serial Mom]

33. I am not sure, but the Election commission

released info of who voted for whom in areas of the city.

Milwaukee is a very segregated city (sad to say), and the general population in highly latino neighborhoods voted highly republican, even though Milwaukee is mainly a blue city.

I was basing my suppositions on that fact, especially since reading about the book What's the Matter With Kansas and how people vote on one-issue, that may not affect them in any way.

[EFerrari]

41. Thanks! I'd be really interested in knowing what kind of

voting systems are used in those precincts, if you know what I mean.

Because I noticed in 2004 that the areas with the most fraud (of all kinds) were usually poor, immigrant or otherwise colorful neighborhoods. Oh, and college kids officially became colorful in 2004 because their precincts were also messed with outrageously.

I have some very conservative relatives that vote straight Thug tickets. But they do that for economic reasons, not because of abortion AT ALL. Most of my huge clan are bluer than blue. :hi:

[Serial Mom]

100. You are right -

all the repukes that cried fraud in Milwaukee were talking about some of the poorest areas of the city.

When it suits them and goes their way, no fraud, but if it goes against them, they cry louder than anybody else.

When the courts rule for them, they need these types of judges to be appointed - when the court rules against them, they are "activist" judges and need to be removed from the system.

[EFerrari]

124. Sounds like we could both go to work writing their dirty scripts.

That, of course, should be Plan B. :hi:

[IsItJustMe]

5. No borders. Whipie

That's what the Dems need to run on for one hell of a defeat for the next 20 years.

[countryjake]

12. So you support Frist's ''Border Security Only'' alternative?

How democratic of you! Ever hear of "Right to Work" laws?

[IsItJustMe]

29. I am stating the obvious. You will believe me sooner or later, probably

after the Dems loose big time in the next election. Open borders are supported my most Americans.

[Bridget Burke]

47. "Open borders are supported my (sic) most Americans"

So--where's the problem?

[IsItJustMe]

184. No way

[RB TexLa]

8. The requirement of people to learn English is enough to filibuster this

Good Lord, requiring a language to be learned for citizenship? How many citizens that are born here learn a second language?

[EFerrari]

9. We'd have to revoke Junior's citizenship!

:rofl:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

11. Is incoherence considered a second language?

[EFerrari]

16. No, that's his first language. He doesn't meet the English requirement.

lol

[im10ashus]

21. That's the truth.

Having heard him butcher the English language every time he opens his mouth, I would like to see him deported to Gitmo.

[EFerrari]

22. He doesn't speak Spanish, either.

:rofl:

[im10ashus]

28. LOL!!!

My friend and I just lost it when he attempted Spanish (or whatever the hell he was speaking) in 1999 during his campaign. Such a tool, that worm is. :rofl:

[Swamp Rat]

13. I know immigrants that speak better English than many Americans

in ADDITION to their native language. The U.S. Government won't even let my SO come visit me and she speaks FIVE languages! :eyes:

I'd be willing to trade millions of dumb Americans for a few smart immigrants. :D

[suffragette]

38. Yes and many who read and comprehend better than many

Americans as well.

Not to mention the many immigrants who have become citizens and who have a better grasp of small matters like the Constitution since they had to study it to pass the test.
How many Americans who disparage immigrants could answer these questions? http://usgovinfo.about.com/blinstst.htm
How many who can't can name contestants on American Idol or what Paris Hilton is up to these days.
Upside down priorities.

Sorry to hear about them not letting your SO in. That sucks.

[blondeatlast]

97. So very, very true--some very recent proof:

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/blondeatlast/4

[suffragette]

158. Great journal

Thanks for the link. And congrats to lionesspriyanka.

A long time ago, I attended one of these with a friend who was being sworn in as a citizen. I remember her smile during it. She kept trying to put on a more solemn face, but the joy kept bursting through.

[blondeatlast]

93. How sadly true.My hubby is an immigrant (citizen as of last Friday!)

who learned English in his native country.

I have to pay for my son to learn another language.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

10. Bravo! People over profits!

[Critters2]

59. What?!!

Illegal immigrants are here precisely BECAUSE of the profits they bring to corporations, by working for less-than-minimum wage and by underminng the work of unions.

Why do you think the US Chamber of Commerce is against border enforcement...because they've sudenly become the friend of the working man?

"People Over Profits" is a great slogan...in opposition to illegal immigration

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

109. So, go after the corporations not the poor people.

The unions should organize the undocumented workers instead of whining about them.

[Critters2]

123. Great idea!

I'll bet no one ever thought of that? Now, why do you suppose it hasn't been done?

[Strelnikov_]

212. Um, Because The Employer Would Simply Bust The Union By Closing Up Shop

sell off the plant, and the next owner simply hire the next, of limitless, waves of illegal immigrants at substandard wages?

Meatpacking And The Migration Of Refugee And Immigrant Labor To Storm Lake, Iowa
http://migration.ucdavis.edu/cf/comments.php?id=154_0_2_0

The Hygrade workforce was primarily male and of European descent. Only in its last few years of operation, in the late l970s to early 1980s, did a few women work on the plant floor. The plant’s workforce was from Storm Lake and surrounding communities. Prior to the mid-1980s, Storm Lake was almost exclusively Anglo, and this homogeneity was reflected in Hygrade’s workforce. Many of Hygrade’s workers put in thirty years or more at the plant, reflecting a low turnover. For many, their jobs supported a comfortable, middle-class lifestyle. Average annual incomes were about $30,000, but some senior workers earned up to $40,000 or more in Hygrade’s last year of operation.

In October 1981, Hygrade closed its plant and Storm Lake lost five hundred jobs. Community leaders immediately set about attracting a new buyer for the plant.

In April 1982 IBP announced its purchase of the plant for $2.5 million. After extensive renovation, this became the company's first pork-packing facility (IBP previously had processed only beef.) IBP’s move into pork processing signaled a major transformation of the industry.

When IBP opened its doors in September 1982, its workforce did not resemble the old Hygrade crew. Hundreds of former Hygrade workers applied, but fewer than thirty were hired. IBP would look beyond the Storm Lake community for its laborers. Beginning wages were only $6 an hour, and health benefits become available only after six months on the job. (Today, starting wages are $7 an hour.) The new plant had higher productivity expectations than the old plant. Injury rates climbed, and high employee turnover increased the strain on local labor supplies.

[Critters2]

267. Yep, that's why!

[countryjake]

324. IBP is Tyson, which owns the biggest monopoly on meats.

This falls under breaking up these mega-corps, reforming anti-trust laws to prevent these massive corporations from making sweet-heart deals with the likes of Wal-Mart. I'd venture to guess that packing plant has also edged out any other local meat companies...do they even process local meat anymore?

The Federal Farm Bill could go far in correcting what Storm Lake has suffered. If people concentrated more on actually improving the sources of the food we eat and the conditions under which it is raised and processed, and eliminating the humongous vultures of agri-business which reap incredible profit by supplying us with sub-standard edibles, we would go far in improving both living and working standards for everyone in this country!

[Critters2]

345. Indeed

If anyone were really interested in improving the living and working conditions. But the Repugs are only interested in giving the corporations carte blanche. And the Dems only care about courting the Latino vote. And nothing changes for the better.

[proud2BlibKansan]

284. Because in bush's America

corporations are more important than the workers.

[file83]

223. I'm going to have to agree with "mycritters2" on this one....

:thumbsup:

[Der Blaue Engel]

15. Once again, I say good for them

Flame me if you must, but I support this protest. I fail to see how liberals can be against a call for more humane immigration laws.

[Bridget Burke]

19. No flames from me.

We need to deal with all immigration in a logical & humane way.

[Critters2]

61. I'm in favor of more humane working conditions

and a better wage.

[Merlot]

20. "a felony to be illegally in the United States"

Interesting that it's now a felony. So does that mean we'll be throwing them in prision instead of deporting them?

Guess we better start building more prisions!

[High Plains]

23. Interesting that it's not now a felony.

And people keep calling them "illegal immigrants" and "criminals."

I guess "administratively unsanctioned immigrants" doesn't have the same ring to it.

[EFerrari]

24. Yes, there is prison time involved.

Who will get the no bid contract?

[Bridget Burke]

30. They can work in the prisons...

And be paid even less....

[MadJohnShaft]

27. The one in Chicago on the 10th was HUGE

went by my window for about 3-4 hours

[EFerrari]

32. That's awesome. Thanks for posting that!

:)

[applegrove]

35. Holy Cow! That looks like one organized crowd!!!

[Greyhound]

37. This issue is such BS.

As long time resident of the Southwest, I've known many, many hispanics, and the consensus (if there even is such a thing) is that the illegals have got to go, their continued presence hurts all of us.

The Democrats think they will vote for them (they won't) and the re:puke:s just want to keep the downward pressure on salaries and benefits. The losers are all of the rest of us, including the illegals. Want to see The Corporate Party's vision of our future? Go visit the maquiladoras along the border, they've been there since NAFTA and, not only are things no better for them it is usually worse.

[EFerrari]

42. That is such BS. We have always voted overwhelmingly Dem

including for Kerry in 2004.

The losers are people who believe the Thug bs and fail to see that.

[Greyhound]

66. Are "we" illegal or are "we" of hispanic decent? n/t

[EFerrari]

130. I'm a Latina. And I have papers, just like my Lab does.

If you want me to go back to where I came from, I'm afraid that will only be across the San Francisco Bay to Oakland.

Thanks for asking, even if you couldn't help but use the royal we.

:rofl:

[Greyhound]

148. Then why are you working against your own interests?

I never said anything against immigration and I fully support it. It's the illegal invasion that I object to.
And you are the one that said "we" vote overwhelmingly Democratic. Which is only partially true, depending on where you're looking.

[EFerrari]

152. No, the Latino vote went to Kerry in 2004. That's a fact.

"Illegal invasion" is a topic we could talk about at length but I think you'd probably hate it.

peace, greyhound1966

We need jobs and fair wages and for Labor to stop being fucked by the Thugs. We probably agree on that.

[Greyhound]

189. Indeed we do, and I think if we spoke in person we'd have even less to

disagree about. To me it isn't about where they're from or what the ancestral origin is, it is the illegality, and I don't even advocate doing anything to them, my solution is to punish those that hire them, severely. No fences, no troops, no "round-ups", just remove the motivation.

[proud2BlibKansan]

45. Send them to the midwest!

We treasure them here.

[Critters2]

69. We prefer them over workers who want to be fairly paid.

[EFerrari]

79. I don't know anyone who is against fair wages.

I think you're missing the point.

[Critters2]

83. Educate me

What is the point? Illegal immigrants are hired bcause they'll work at less than union scale. In doing so, they undermine those who want to work at a fair wage. They keep wages low, which damages the economy.

What is your point?

[blondeatlast]

107. Spend your energies fighting against Right to Work laws, then.

I'll happily join and support you in that endeavor.

[EFerrari]

164. My point is that undocumented workers

DON'T SET WAGES.

[file83]

232. Is that really a "point"? We live in a free market economy and when

a large population (it doesn't matter where from) is willing to work for fractions of the minimum wage, guess who gets the jobs: the lowest bidder.

Now, it's precisely because these people are FROM poor countries that they are willing to work for so little. Every illegal immigrant worker I knew when living in Phoenix (about 12) was sending money BACK to their family members in their native country . They lived in substandard housing with large quantities of people. They always complained but did it anyway, because they had no choice. It's either work for shit wages or go home, and there is NO WAY they would quit their jobs because the money was SO MUCH BETTER than what they could get in (say Mexico).

So, yes, it's the fact that they are illegal immigrants (their choice to come here) that they are willing to work for small wages (their choice too) AND business owners want larger profits which "sets their wages".

It's a free market, but the FIRST people to lose in a free market with unchecked illegal immigration are the low skilled laborers, which just so happens to be the largest segment of our society. This in turn drives ALL wages down, up the economic ladder, thus thinning out the middle class.

So why isn't illegal immigration stopped? Because it kills 2 birds with 1 stone for the Wealthy:

1) The Rich get richer
2) The poor get poorer

[EFerrari]

246. Exactly my point. Undocumented workers

don't set wages.

[Critters2]

263. Sure they do

by accepting low wages. The market will pay what the market can bear. Because of illegal immigration, the market can bear less than minimum wages. They'll accept low wages, so employers pay low wages. Thus, they undermine all the work unions did to guarantee a decent wage.

[Telly Savalas]

278. Union-busting and the absence of living wage laws keep wages low.

Building a $700 million wall along the U.S.-Mexico border doesn't really do much to help this.

[Critters2]

283. No

the presence of workers who will accept dirt poor wages keep wages low. The market will pay what the market can bear. Due to the presence of illegal workers, the market can bear a much lower wage. Requiring corporations to pay a living wage would kill the incentive to hire illegal immigrants. Illegal workers depress wages and damage the economy. Simple supply and demand.

[Greyhound]

121. Really? Would you like an introduction? I'm sure there are many

within easy commuting distance of you.

[EFerrari]

133. Really? People who want to be underpaid?

That's just nuts. :wow:

[Greyhound]

151. "I don't know anyone who is against fair wages"

Well I know many, every one of them is of the ruling class.

[EFerrari]

154. I stand corrected. n/t

[Greyhound]

71. Spoken like some one NOT in the construction trades.

and BTW I spent a large part of the last 17 years working in the mid-west, and I've seen first-hand how you "treasure" them. Give me a break. :eyes:

[Critters2]

76. Didn't you hear?

The Democratic Party is no longer the party of labor. It's the party of anything it takes to get votes. Principles were just getting in the way!

[EFerrari]

82. So, you don't know any Latino workers?

Get a clue. In communities where labor stops whining and makes common cause with undocumented workers, working conditions and wages go UP.

Why are we so willing to buy into the Republican cr@P -- like they EVER cared about working families.

[Critters2]

87. They don't care about working families

and neither do those touting this issue. This is a winning issue for the corporations. They're the ones who benefit from cheap labor.

[EFerrari]

91. mycritter, I am not "touting" cheap labor.

If you think that, you have misunderstood me or I have been unclear.

Try to think beyond the Thug talking points.

Who benefits from keeping undocumented workers in limbo?

Who benefits from building a wall that won't do anything but spend our money?

Who benefits from pitting workers against each other?

I'm off for a while but, I hope you think about these questions. They will be important, imho, in 2006.

peace

[Critters2]

102. I live in community being completely undermined by illegal immigration

I do more than think about these issues. I live with them constantly. Workers need to be paid a decent wage. Period. Anything that stands in opposition to that is not worth supporting.

[EFerrari]

113. Then we are in complete agreement. n/t

[countryjake]

126. Ever hear of union organizing?

The agri-business and it's move to bring in "guest" farmworkers from Thailand to do the work normally done by Migrant Latinos has done more to crush union activity than ever before. They falsely claim there is a "shortage of labor", which enables them to NOT hire those farmworkers who have been fighting for representation, better working conditions, livable wages, and benefits normally enjoyed by American working people.

Work in Eastern Washington for decades, picking fruit, and establishing an ongoing fight for on-the-job rights...then boom, suddenly this government decides they'd rather issue visas for workers who have signed statements that they WILL NOT ROCK THE BOAT, EARN LESS THAN MINIMUM WAGE, and RETURN TO THAILAND when the picking season is over. Please, tell me how that does one thing to end the exploitation of cheap labor?

Busting unions has been the main thrust of Corporate America since the first worker said to another, "Hey, we ain't gonna take this anymore!" They've used the tired old phrase, "These "aliens" are stealing your jobs!" specifically to keep working people from seeking common ground and uniting for real rights on their jobs, since long before the Civil War!

Siding with the corporations against an organized, strong Working Class, including every single person who sells their labor for a living in this country, is what will do the most harm to ALL working families.

Cheap labor must demand organization and recognizing your brothers on the job, no matter where they were born or how many "documents" they carry in their pocket, is the first step to that unity!

[Greyhound]

144. That my friend, is exactly how it works.

They get then here and terrorize them, threatening them with everything from deportation to kidnapping to execution if they say anything, so naturally when the union come in to organize they can't find any support. Eventually the word gets out that they won't be punished (at least overtly) and they begin to see the light, then they bring in the next bunch that they can intimidate into rejecting collective bargaining.

Same old, same old. What really pisses me off is the crass manipulation by "our" side to continue this scheme for the sake of the next election.

[countryjake]

193. I guess you're not familiar with any United Farmworkers...

Or United Food and Commercial Workers. You are misinformed to think that the unions get no support from these people when they attempt a union drive...it's the INS, in cahoots with the plants and farms, who take those measures...they've done it for decades, simply to keep their employees from organizing.

Ever hear of a "yoyo", the immigrant who is deported so many times that authorities essentially give up on trying to keep them from earning a living? Years at the same job, admired by his fellow workers for the determination to WORK, who bears every resemblance to any other working person, and struggles within that job for better conditions for ALL. Some are active Union organizers, they would guffaw at your premise that undocumented workers don't care about their conditions on the job and are content to work at sub-standard wages and huddle in fear, rather than support any union activity.

The only way to break the "scheme" is to continually recognize and point out that common struggle of anyone within a particular field of work. Combatting the discrimination and blatant rascism and calling out both the government and the forces of agri-business when they arrest, break, and divide us working people to increase their power and profit...uniting and forming solid ties with everyone who chooses to labor within an industry, regardless of where they were born or the color of their skin, is our only hope of defeating the chains of cheap labor.

[Greyhound]

200. Thus the workers being imported from Thailand.

The Latinos are on to us so we must find another group that can be intimidated into taking less that their due.
My experience is personal and not agricultural. It was in the hospitality industry in SoCal and I was management. It is too long a story to go into, but the upshot is that the workers that I tried to help organize hung me out to dry and to this day are not even making minimum wage, and needless to say, get no benefits.
I don't know what post you read, but it wasn't mine. I never said anything about the workers not caring about their working conditions. I never said they were content with sub-standard wages. I never said anything about race, nor country of origin.
I am intimately familiar with the United Farmworkers, in fact my parent were two of their most committed, vocal, supporters, I didn't even know what a grape tasted like until I was about 20. So save your rant for someone that needs it.

[countryjake]

294. Sorry!

I assumed that's what you meant when you said they wouldn't support Union activity. My experience has been that Chicano Americans and Latino immigrants are some of the boldest and fiercest voices for Union organizing in this country, going way back to those farmworker boycotts you've mentioned and also the Levi Strauss strikes and Farrah Pants boycotts.

My Ohio electronics plant struck 6 months way back then, for recognition in the IAM (we won) and gals from El Paso were some of the only support we received during that long and brutal ordeal. They shouted out in a mighty voice, getting us national media recognition, and could have cared less that most of our workers were of that hill-country, backward-seeming persuasion. When you get garment workers marching hand-in-hand with skilled machinists for a Living Wage and Worker's rights, that's when things start changing for the better.

[Greyhound]

314. Absolutely. Sorry for the crossed wires, we're on the same side.

a drawback in the technology, but it is amusing to watch all the replies to this thread that start contentious and end up with both people saying "oh, me too".

It is the corporations as tools of the ruling class against the rest of us and we'd better wake up to that fast. As Chris Rock said, "Black people and white people got a lot more in common, than rich people and poor people".

I get too wrapped up in this board sometimes. :blush:

[countryjake]

352. Ha! I still haven't even read most of just this one topic...

it has moved way too fast for me and I've already mistaken one person who jumped in for another I'd been "chatting" with.

I just cannot believe that some are actually aggravated that thousands are hitting the streets to protest these draconian bills the right-wing thinks it can thrust upon us.

If anyone would read the contents and then apply it to their own personal condition, I doubt most would be raising such a fuss here. And then to hear what Frist is offering as an alternative, I think workers just may have found that spark to unite all of us. I can't wait to see how the Dems actually debate this one on the floor.

[Critters2]

90. Can you document that?

Where I've lived, immigratn labor drives wages down, and actually contributes to population loss. Undermines both unions and family farms.

[Bridget Burke]

101. Why don't YOU document how population is being lost in your area?

(Wherever that is.) And how it's harming family farms? Surely your union's site will help with the other problem!

By "immigratn" labor do you mean ALL immigrants?

[Critters2]

104. You seriously doubt that there is population loss in rural Iowa?

And that the low wages of factory farms play a role?

Again, document your statements.

[Bridget Burke]

125. If people are leaving rural Iowa....

Are they being forced out by the "illegals"? (Guess the illegals don't count as "people.")

Or are they just sick of rural smallmindness?

[Critters2]

131. The area where I live is as progressive as my old

neighborhood in Chicago. They're leaving because of the industrialization of agriculture, made possible by the cheap labor of illegal immigration.

I don't expect you to understand. You've stereotyped all of rural America. An open-mind can be risky.

[Greyhound]

192. You're apparently still in Houston, so you are very familiar with

small minds. What I'm wondering is what point are you trying to make?

[blondeatlast]

110. Can you document your allegations? Do tell. nt

[EFerrari]

138. Really? Have you taken that up with the employers of these

EXPLOITED WORKERS?

Or, do they skate while poor people get demonized?

What is the RW position on this?

The progressive position?

[mitchtv]

318. You can't ignore the sheer immensity

of immigrant shops and small business in dead, blighted areas ,, and the revitalization of entire neighborhoods, the enormous $2b cross border economy,California needs the labor force, cause no matter how much you pay, Americans WILL NOT pick vegetables in the Imperial Valley in June,July, and August. The farmers must be regulated in their ability to pick up casual labor and buy licenses to import workers and fined severley for infractionss. We have been looking in the wrong direction,for a fix. Follow the money. On the other hand, Americans will do much of the work now done by others, if they are treated fairly .

[Critters2]

338. Let's try paying a living wage and see how that goes

for a change

[mitchtv]

437. more likely you'll see most farm products from

from Mexico anyway and Guatemala hasta Costa Rica. Most of the winter grapes and stone fruit are from Chike already. Asparagus from Peru , Mangos from Ecuador, Who needs people to worry about. Chilean wine does not disappoint.

[Critters2]

441. Being a net importer of food is a problem

But I see the Democratic "economic advisers" haven't figured this out yet

[blondeatlast]

108. Note how the question was dodged entirely... nt

[EFerrari]

127. Find a question in that post.

I don't need to dodge anything. I know what I'm talking about. :)

[blondeatlast]

180. Oopsie--I responded to the wrong post.

mycritters2 dodged what was I believe your question--so sorry.

[EFerrari]

224. Oh, never mind.

:)

[Critters2]

115. I know plenty of hispanics

They work in the factory farms, for less than minimum wage, at tasks that often violate OSHA regulations, in an industry known for its hostility to unions. Because they make so little money, they have less to spend in local businesses, many of which have closed down in recent years. The factory farms where they work concentrate livestock in huge facilities, bringing prices so low that more humane, better paying family farms, which better support rural communities, are being forced out of the area and out of business.

You think not? Read _Fast Food Nation_, so that you understand what you're marching for.

[Greyhound]

119. Quite simply that is BS

Labor is whining and the illegals are saints, merely trying to eek out an existence in a hard world, boo-hoo, what a load! C'mon fess up, what exactly is your stake in this issue?

[mitchtv]

307. For me, I think the solution is plain

It is already illegal to hire undocumented individuals. Sieze the employers, throw them in JAIL, Confiscate said businesses. We are doing the hiring here , just like the drug trade. I am union,and I agree with the SEIU position to incorporate ALL workers, but also to drive up wages, by forcing employers to hire "local".

[mitchum]

323. And yours is the sensible solution, mitchtv

[Greyhound]

112. Too true, and I am hearing it every day.

I chalk it up to pre-election panic. They see the Democratic Wing of The Corporate Party taking over, vetoing the people's choices for candidates, setting another pro-corporate agenda, siding with their re:puke: counterparts, and they are afraid.

[proud2BlibKansan]

277. We value diversity here

:eyes:

[Critters2]

297. No, we value cheap labor

which results in cheap food. Don't paint the pro-illegal immigrant movement as more altruistic than it is. This is all so your hot dogs and lettuce don't cost too much.

[Greyhound]

328. LOL!

Kansas... :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[proud2BlibKansan]

Excuse me?

You must not realize the Kansas board on DU is one of the more active state forums here.

[Greyhound]

431. I've no doubt that you value diversity, but to say that your state as

whole values it as well is one of the funniest things I've ever heard. :D

[proud2BlibKansan]

433. You obviously don't know much about Kansas

or its history.

[Greyhound]

435. Oh no, not at all. just because 5 generations of my family have lived

there is no reason to think I may know something about it. :eyes:

[proud2BlibKansan]

436. 5 generations of your family have lived?

Wow what an impressive statistic. :eyes:

[Greyhound]

479. Because you're here, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt try reading

the whole post.

[Critters2]

64. Exactly!!

Couldn't have said it better myself! Thanks!

[blondeatlast]

105. Funny, I live in the deep SW too and work and associate with many

Americans of Hispanic descent.

They overwhelmingly find the anger at illegal immigration--get ready, because I'm going to use the word--RACIST as all hell.

So do I.

BTW< they still vote overwhelmingly Democratic as well.

Guess we travel in a different social circle. :shrug:

[Greyhound]

128. Apparently we do. Admittedly, most of my hispanic friends live in SoCal

not here. Where I live here is so white you can see it from space in the summer.

[Bridget Burke]

136. Lots of Cubans in SoCal?

After all, they are "Hispanic."

[Greyhound]

187. That's true, but I don't understand what you're implying.

In fact, I believe the majority of my friends are Guatemalan, not Mexican.

[Bridget Burke]

132. Well, if the new Immigration Enforcers (or their Minutemen auxiliaries)

Begin combing the streets for "illegals"...guess who will be harrassed? Not I--although I've heard rumors of illegal Irish up North.

Greencards will be demanded of those whose ancestors crossed the River before mine crossed the ocean. How many people carry proof of citizenship at all times?

[blondeatlast]

139. My newly naturalized (as of Friday) husband has his GC in the safe

deposit unless he knows he'll need it.

He's of Indian descent, but is frequently mistaken for Hispanic and we've been hassled a number of times.

[mitchtv]

486. Someone's gonna get shot around here

pulling that shit. Most of the truckers in soCal are Chicano ie: American and Union. There will be trouble if the CHP tries to enforce selective citizenship proofs here

[Strelnikov_]

219. Agree. The Oligarchs Are Smiling, All The Way To The Bank

I have a big problem with the symbotic relationship between illegal immigration and the labor black market.

It appears to me that (uncontrolled) immigrant labor fills a void that it perpetuates, low wages that make the jobs undesirable due to an oversupply of labor, the classic supply/demand relationship. All the current immigration policy of this country does is create a black market for labor, exploiting those who are here illegally, and driving down the wages and working conditions so for legal residents and immigrants the job is a step backward.

Of course, from the lofty perch of a tenured teaching position, a defined benefit/trust fund annuity, or college paid by the parents, the impact of the labor black market on the middle and lower class working people of this country seems to be, well, no problem at all. The minute there is any discussion of tightening up immigration, a civil war revolving around accusations of racism breaks out, nothing gets done, and the Iron Heel (GOP Corporatists) laugh all the way to the bank.

What we need is a guest worker program to stop the exploitation of immigrants and end the flooding of the labor market due to uncontrolled immigration. This will address illegal immigration by dealing with demand (employers).

Hiring of guest workers by businesses would be coordinated through workforce development (unemployment) offices. These offices would maintain a set of procedures/surveys to verify a shortage of labor in a classification before guest workers could be hired. A wage rates system would have to be maintained to prevent low wages from being used as way to create a labor shortage.

All labor laws, including minimum wage rates and social security payments, would be strictly enforced for guest workers, with severe penalties for violators. After participation in the program over time, the guest worker would be eligible for a retirement SS annuity based on what they paid in.

Some thoughts on immigration policy from John Sayles which sums up my feelings on this issue.

John Sayles
From:A People's Democratic Platform

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20040802&s=forum

The Democratic platform should call for an end to the hypocrisy of our immigration policy. Our current policy, an enormously expensive cat-and-mouse game, most notably on our southern border, calls on the INS to enforce immigration laws that are openly expected to be ignored by countless US industries and private employers. Some sort of regulated guest-worker program is needed.

Once it is in place, if immigrants continue to enter the country illegally and can't find work, word will filter back and the numbers will decrease dramatically. While in our country, however, those guest workers need to be protected from exploitation--to be assured they will be paid for their work, that their working conditions will meet state and federal safety standards and that they will receive no less than the federally mandated minimum wage (which needs to be raised).

Employers would be required to withhold some percentage (perhaps the equivalent of federal taxes and Social Security) from wages to help defray the costs of the program. Penalties for hiring foreign workers outside of the program would be high enough (and sufficiently enforced) to end the black market in labor that is thriving now.

Protecting all workers in this country is an important first step toward the amendment or abolition of NAFTA and the protection of workers throughout the world.

[Greyhound]

227. What's this? A reasoned and reasonable response?

I'm dumbfounded. :wow:
This is what pisses me off the most about this whole issue, it is not very difficult to find and implement fair and reasonable solutions to it, but the two loudest sides just start their tirades and suck all the oxygen out of the discourse.
And that's just the way they want it.

[babylonsister]

39. And here's a rally from yesterday in Milwaukee!

Thousands rally in Milwaukee to protest illegal immigration bill

MILWAUKEE What was billed as "A Day Without Latinos" filled Milwaukee's streets with thousands of demonstrators today.

Police estimate more than ten-thousand people turned out to protest congressional efforts to crack down on illegal immigrants. Organizers say the crowd was closer to 30-thousand. About 90 Latino-owned businesses were closed for all or part of the day in support.

As one protester put it, "We want to be equal."

The demonstrators oppose a bill that would make it a felony to live or work illegally in the U-S. The measure approved by the House would also impose new penalties on employers who hire illegal migrants and build a fence along about a third of the U-S border with Mexico.

http://www.wbay.com/Global/story.asp?S=4674762

[EFerrari]

43. Under the bed, everybody! Us brown people are taking over!

:rofl:

:toast:

[rene moon]

48. Yay for us brownies

First America, then the world! BWHAHAHAHA!!! :evilgrin:

[im10ashus]

51. That's fine with me.

I happen to like a little latin flavor. :-)

[Midnight Rambler]

190. After all, it was our country to begin with

n/t

[EFerrari]

381. Sh! You'll scare the children.

:)

[Rainscents]

46. Can you imagine, add another 150 millions to it and take it to street

protest chimp? Guess who will win? We The People win!

[Critters2]

98. The underpaid, exploited people

Congratulations

[smomfr]

94. If nothing else is said about our brothers south of the border ........

it´s that they are a very passionate and nationalistic people. They don´t want to be away from home and family. Forcing them out of the U.S. will be a huge huge mistake. You saw the price of gas go up wait till you see what a head of lettuce is going to cost if you can find one. Did you know Mexicans feel slighted when you tell them your an american? Know why? They´re americans too.

[Critters2]

99. That's the real issue--cheap food

No matter how many union workers lose their jobs to help you get it.

[Rainscents]

54. How fast people forget... Mexico people were here long before

America was born. How fast had we forgotten! TX, NM and AZ was part of Mexico country until 1930's.

[EFerrari]

58. That's right. See my #36.

The heart of the Democratic party hasn't been about exclusion since the War Between the States, has it?

:)

[ecstatic]

65. What's wrong with waiting in line like everyone else?

Sorry if this post comes across as freeperish... but I have immigrant relatives who had to wait in line. I think people from *all* countries should be able to get in.

[EFerrari]

77. Nothing. But at bottom, that isn't the issue but the bait the Thugs

use to divide working people.

[Ksec]

96. My grandparents waited in line

This aint about hispanics or africans or europeons or any group, its about the rule of law. You come in illegally, you are a criminal and should be in jail. Period.

[Bridget Burke]

111. My grandparents just showed up....

No obvious evidence of disease or feeble-mindedness? Welcome to America!

You don't think that undocumented workers should be deported? You want to put them in prison?

(Congratulations on your new word: I'm sure some of my Irish ancestors were considered "europeons.")

[Ksec]

116. Yes, prison.

As far as yer euro comment, I didnt think hispanic or african was real definitive either. Thats my point.

[Bridget Burke]

141. No, I don't get your point.

But, your opinion that deportation is "too good for them" is all I need to know.

[Ksec]

147. Anytime.

[Telly Savalas]

280. So we should imprison pot-smokers?

They break the law.

[proud2BlibKansan]

291. Do you know anything about the process?

Do you realize how hard it is to even get an appointment to talk to immigration authorities to become a legal immigrant? In my area, there is an 18 month wait.

Now tell me if you had a family to feed and no hope for a decent job in your native country, would you wait around to be 'legal' before you emigrated to the US?

[Vinca]

114. Ditto what you said.

This entire brouhaha has me puzzled. The last time I checked we HAD an immigration policy. Someone CAN come into this country legally to work. What's wrong with following the existing laws? What's wrong with securing the borders so we know who's coming in?

[Bridget Burke]

137. The Democratic bill does not exactly open all the borders....

The Republican bill is being protested.

Guess you're guarding the border to keep out the Quebecois!

[mdmc]

74. Kick for the cause

the streets!

[Festivito]

106. THE ARTICLE CHANGED. (Hid the R deeper, focus on melee.)

PHOENIX, Arizona (AP) -- Thousands of people across the country protested Friday against legislation cracking down on illegal immigrants, with demonstrators in Phoenix, Los Angeles, California, and Atlanta, Georgia, staging school walkouts, marches and work stoppages.

Congress is considering bills that would make it a felony to be illegally in the United States, impose new penalties on employers who hire illegal immigrants and erect fences along one-third of the U.S.-Mexican border. The proposals have angered many Hispanics.

The Los Angeles demonstration led to fights between black and Hispanic students at one high school, but the protests were largely peaceful, authorities said.

Chantal Mason, a sophomore at George Washington Preparatory High, said black students jumped Hispanic students as they left classes
...
same:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/03/24/immigration.protest.ap/index.html

[EFerrari]

122. I told you. We're dangerous.

BUT THE PROTESTS WERE LARGELY PEACEFUL.

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[blondeatlast]

135. It was likely two young men fighting over a pretty girl--note that they

didn't tie it directly to the marches, just put it conspicuously in the story ABOUT the marches. Implication is all that matters. :puke:

[EFerrari]

140. The Smear and the Fear.

Well, we should expect it and be good readers. :)

[blondeatlast]

129. You're right, they did change it. Un-effing-believable.

Someone convince me they don't serve their corpwhore masters well.

[im10ashus]

155. GOOD CATCH!!!

I have seen it change twice now. What is up with CNN? I noticed it happens with local papers picking up AP wires, they modify or delete statements, but CNN should know better.

[savemefromdumbya]

134. GOP not going to get many Latino/a votes

[malaise]

143. Watching the protests

on Lou Dobbs. Great turn out.

[DeaconBlues]

145. when they respect our country by coming here legally like everyone else

then I will be concerned about the issues they present. Until then, I don't give a damn if a million illegals march.

[EFerrari]

150. Ay ay ay.

How do you know who among those marchers is undocumented?

and

"everyone else" didn't come here "legally".

Look, do you want the fastest growing minority voting block to vote Democratic or not?

Just asking.

[DeaconBlues]

160. over 40% of Hispanics voted for Bush in the last election

a majority of Hispanic voters are socially conservative (pro-Life, anti-gay rights, etc.).

The dream that a growing Hispanic population will save the Democrats is just that...a dream. Anyways, we shouldn't just support a position cause it may garner more votes.

Before anyone accuses me of racism (which they probably already have before I post this): I am full favor of immigrants who come here legally and become full citizens. This has reinvigorated and strengthened our country from the beginning. But if you can't be bothered with following the rules and coming here legally, I really can't be bothered with your so-called grievances.

[EFerrari]

165. Really? Legal immigration?

Then you'd pretty much have to throw out most of your Murican history.

And while you cling to these watered down thug talking points, I register progressive Latinos.

Let's see which strategy works best. :)

[DeaconBlues]

174. so its "thug" talking points to believe that people who want to come here

should do so legally. No wonder Republicans win elections.

[EFerrari]

185. Really, no wonder. When you buy into their propaganda

and ignore the fact that the Latino community votes Dem.

[Telly Savalas]

281. Over 58% of white people voted for Bush in the last election

http://edition.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/US/P/00/epolls.0.html

[Bridget Burke]

153. How do you know all the marchers were illegals?

Some of the marchers might even have been (gasp!) white.

The march is not protesting ALL immigration laws, just the draconian Republican bill.

[lovuian]

182. Remember Mexican corporations take advantage of

their Mexican workers... So Mexican company owners here have probably used ilegals so they can become rich...

this is a very ugly cycle we are in...

[Name removed]

156. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blondeatlast]

169. And you know they are "illegals" how?

A friend of mine helped organize the Phoenix protest. He's born and bred here as are the overwhelming majority of the membership of his organization. The rest have green cards and are in the process of naturalization.

I want to say that horrible word, but surely it hasn't raised it's ugly head at DU.

[Scout1071]

149. Holy Shit! I just watched footage of a huge protest in Kansas City!

They showed signs in local businesses that were shut down for the day because no workers showed up.

[Bridget Burke]

159. Look: These marchers are protesting the REPUBLICAN Immigration Bill.

They are NOT saying "open all the borders immediately!"

The Democrats also have a bill, but I guess it's not tough enough for some "Democrats."

[EFerrari]

162. Why aren't you under your bed yet!

lol

[Bridget Burke]

166. Why should I be under my bed?

My posts on this thread have not exactly been anti-protest.

In fact, since the march was against the Republican bill, we've learned a lot about those who are frothing at the mouth about "the brown peril."

[EFerrari]

168. That's right. n/t

[lovuian]

163. Why don't they fight this hard in Mexico to get their people

higher wages... Cheap Labor is a crime and Employers who exploit the poor immigrant should be arrested!!!

Get a look America of the coming anger ...

If these people protested in Mexico they would have been shot... They need to go fight for their families there...

I don't want them undermining our country...

Do these people vote???

[EFerrari]

167. This is probably a stupid question but, how can people

marching for human rights undermine *your* country?

And yes, there are Betty Crocker approved, pedigreed American citizens marching. Because most undocumented workers avoid any contact with law enforcement whatsoever. So, my guess would be, you are watching American citizens that are pissed off beyond enduring.

[lovuian]

173. You guess You don't know who is protesting???

We don't know who is protesting... maybe its people who realize that they may have to give up good paying jobs in America... Yes thats something to protest all right...Maybe those are all employers of ilegal aliens that will have to pay decent wages!!!

Cheap Labor is a crime...

Where is Mexico's responsiblity why aren't they protesting in Mexico...thats where the real evil is!!!

[EFerrari]

179. Evil? We don't know where THE EVIL is?

I think we should slow this thread down.

I thought we were talking about rational categories.

Evil?

[Bridget Burke]

183. Apparently, the EVIL is in the Democratic Immigration proposal.

Since the Republican bill is being protested today.

They're really crawling out of the woodwork, aren't they?

[EFerrari]

191. The Thug media is pretty effective if even DUers

are overlooking this protest is about a REPUBLICAN bill.

[im10ashus]

198. I thought so too.

I guess we have hit a sore spot. Quite strange, considering most out ancestors were immigrants. :shrug:

[pinto]

266. Evil?

[Bridget Burke]

171. Not everyone at the protest is an "illegal"

In fact, some are probably native-born. They just don't care for the Republican Immigration bill. I guess you do.

By the way, plenty of Mexicans ARE fighting in Mexico. Here, they are supporting the Leftist candidate for President, Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador.

[lovuian]

178. Then why our their citizens coming across the border and

becoming ilegal immigrants here???

Let their President give them the wages they deserve!!!

Take a look at mexico and its lifestyle of the Rich elite and the poor and you will see America looking like that!!!

[suffragette]

204. I already see a division between the rich elite and the poor

in the U.S which has everything to do with Republican policies prioritizing corporations and squeezing the workers.

The people marching are doing it to voice opposition to the Republican immigration proposal.

[Bridget Burke]

214. Isn't it odd how many on this thread appear to support the Republican....

Proposal?

Or maybe it's not odd.

[suffragette]

235. Yep,and given that

it's no wonder that the Republicans are pushing that proposal, and bringing up the topic again and again, including Frist's recent attack on Reid.

[blondeatlast]

176. "Tehese people?" Yes, the marchers do vote--they are AMERICANS of Hispanic

descent.

And they overwhelmingly vote Democratic.

"These people?"

[EFerrari]

181. This response is just -- no word.

:shrug:

[lovuian]

188. Hispanics don't overwhelmingly vote Democratic

have you seen Texas lately!!! Its Republican...

[EFerrari]

194. LOL!

:rofl:

[Bridget Burke]

196. Texas is not YET overwhelmingly Hispanic....

Most of the Republicans I've met are White. There are quite a few Hispanics in my precinct & they're mostly Democratic.

Besides, the REPUBLICAN bill is being protested today. So--perhaps--those people on the street don't love Republicans.

[im10ashus]

199. I don't see how people are missing that point.

:hi:

I lived in San Antonio for 2 years. I voted my first Presidential election there in 1984. All the hispanics I knew were overwhelmingly democrat.

[lovuian]

203. Texas has a Huge Hispanic population its Republican

do I have to get the numbers for you and really I'm not
its got a huge Hispanic population... remember its a big state
hispanics don't overwhelmingly vote Democrats

States and Counties
49%
The percentage of the Hispanic-origin population that lives in California or Texas. California is home to 12.4 million Hispanics, and Texas is home to 7.8 million
Heres the link

http://search.hp.netscape.com/hp/boomframe.jsp?query=Texas+hispanic+population+numbers&page=1&offset=1&result_url=redir%3Fsrc%3Dwebsearch%26requestId%3Df09cdc1326228822%26clickedItemRank%3D1%26userQuery%3DTexas%2Bhispanic%2Bpopulation%2Bnumbers%26clickedItemURN%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.census.gov%252FPress-Release%252Fwww%252Freleases%252Farchives%252Ffacts_for_features_special_editions%252F005338.html%26invocationType%3D-%26fromPage%3DCompaqTop%26amp%3BampTest%3D1&remove_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.census.gov%2FPress-Release%2Fwww%2Freleases%2Farchives%2Ffacts_for_features_special_editions%2F005338.html

I read somewhere that in a couple of years it will be the majority in Texas... they don't overwhelmingly vote democrats...

[Bridget Burke]

211. Texas is a big state? Gosh, I forgot!

The Hispanic population will be the majority in the future? Look, this is my state. Don't feel that you must enlighten me.

Why does the sight of so many people protesting a REPUBLICAN bill make you so nervous?

[rinsd]

202. "overwhelmingly vote Democratic"

Not overwhelmingly but a solid majority do.

The latest exit poll data I have is from the recall in 2003 CA (a flawed test case to be sure but for the purposes of example)

Ahnuld got 31% of the Hispanic vote against a Hispanic candidate after vowing to not give illegal immigrants driver licenses. The mind boggles.

[lovuian]

205. They voted for Arnold

because there is the reality that they don't want to endanger their jobs to lower wages!!!

[rinsd]

209. Ahnuld's a freaky case in studying public reaction

Too many weird things going on at the time and when I say weird I don't necessairly mean underhanded.Tthe political climate around that time is difficult to describe.

[blondeatlast]

207. My bad--I was referring to the Hispanics I know.

I realize and freely admit my booboo here.

[rinsd]

208. No, boo-boo

You were correct in your assumption just not in the degree you thought ;-)

Like I said, I still can't believe 30% voted for Ahnuld with the driver's license situ and he also met with the Minutemen.

[Critters2]

274. So, again, I'm curious

why are these American citizens flying Mexican flags in a protest march? Someone explain this to me.

[countryjake]

282. Same reason some drink green beer & dance jigs on St. Paddy's Day!

It's a common thing called heritage. Haven't you ever been thru a Little Italy or Polish area? There exist in this country entire neighborhoods where immigrants read the newspapers from their original countries, eat only their native foods, speak the language they are most familiar with, and celebrate that culture from which they sprang, including treasuring the flag of their homeland.

We live in the freakin' melting pot of the world...always have! Being proud of one's heritage is normally considered a good thing, except when we speak of the self-esteem of Brown people.

[Critters2]

288. Not the same thing at all

St. Patick's Day IS a celebration of Irish heritage. Were these people celebrating their Mexican heritage, or were they holding a political rally? I understand Mexican flags on Cinco de Mayo, but if these are American citizens trying to influence the American political process, they'd be flying American flags.

So, again, why all the Mexican flags?

[countryjake]

384. What have you got against flags...you're flying one from Iowa...

for crying out loud! In the footage and pictures I saw, there were just as many friggin US of A rags waving as there were Mexican ones! The marches I've participated in, to support the farmworkers in my area, are overwhelmingly seen as red, white, and blue...some go so far as to DRESS in those colors, others choose to display both flags.

And just to make it clear, I am an American citizen and at this juncture in time, I would just as soon burn my flag as to display it. I am so deeply ashamed of the death and destruction my country has wrought, both within this nation and out, I would never be so bold as to waggle the thing with any semblance of national pride. I also don't consider that a requirement of anyone who lives here.

This week's marches were ones of solidarity with immigrants, who will be unjustly punished by an extreme, right-wing measure that is about to be shoved thru Congress. They were demonstrations against attacks on simple human rights in this democracy, protesting the imminent discrimination that will be sure to follow, (directed at ALL of Latino heritage, whether they be citizens or not) should the Republicans succeed at passing this bill.

The Mexican flag was waved. Live with it! Anyone who judges a person by the colors they display must surely be so bigoted, that they are beyond any hope or reason.

[proud2BlibKansan]

397. AMEN!!!!!

Great post! Thank you.

BTW, I took my US flag down the day they invaded Iraq. It was on my dad's coffin and I don't dare dishonor his memory by flying that flag now. It will go back up the day we leave Iraq.

[Critters2]

448. Interesting

Not relevant, but interesting

Still doesn't explain the thinking behind flying Mexican flags at a rally over American policies.

[im10ashus]

399. Hear, hear!!!

Great response! :hi:

[Critters2]

449. Not relevant, though

[im10ashus]

478. Wrong. Completely relevant.

What is it with you and the fact that everything you say you believe as gospel? What flavor was that kool-aid?

[Critters2]

481. You don't believe what you say?

You post things you don't believe? I'll see if I can find that in the DSM. Gotta be there.

[im10ashus]

483. I said "wrong, completely relevant.

What is it with you and the fact that everything you say you believe as gospel? What flavor was that kool-aid?"


WHAT IN THE WORLD ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? You make NO sense to me. And I really have tried to give you the benefit of the doubt. But dude...

[Critters2]

442. I just don't understand American citizens, in a political rally about Amer

policies demonstrating loyalty to a foreign nation. I've asked for an explanation. Instead, I've gotten flames and attacks. But not an explanation.

I've got nothing against flags. Sometimes flags are appropriate. But a foreign flag in a protest of an American policy make no sense.

[countryjake]

472. I don't know how to explain it any clearer...

and I don't quite see how you can characterize my responses as either flames or attacks. That bill that is about to hit the floors of Congress is an out-and-out attack on every single person in this country who is of Mexican heritage...can you imagine or just try to put youself in the shoes of anyone who might be affected by this law? Have you read it?

Granted, the bill speaks in general terms, but the fact is that our border with Mexico is where the problem mainly lies. Can't you understand that? Those of Mexican heritage are in the crosshairs of this law, if it passes, even though the discrimination that will surely result includes every American with brown skin.

When I was young, I carried the flag of North Vietnam to many a protest against my own country's policies of that time. I wasn't demonstrating loyalty to any foreign nation, I was demonstrating utter disgust with my own nation's treatment of the peoples of that foreign nation. I saved up cardboard cottage cheese containers and poured red and blue wax to make candles, carefully adding the little yellow star; these represented the flag of North Vietnam and I passed them out to friends, recommending that they be lit for the people of Vietnam, in solidarity and support and hope that the offenses against their nation would end.

I think you may misunderstand the feelings and fears that those demonstrators you've watched carried in their hearts. Marching for solidarity brings a rush of emotions on a person and when I saw clips of those young protesters yesterday, waving their Mexican flags whilst chanting "USA", I felt nothing but pride and appreciation for the courage and determination they all exhibited.

You need to understand what it means to be an oppressed minority in this country, if you want to understand why they were protesting.

[countryjake]

488. I'm so glad you've finally figured out that working people...

are working people, no matter what flag they carry!

No Human Is Illegal!

Viva La Huelga!

[Midnight Rambler]

489. It's about heritage, not "loyalty to a foreign nation"

They are protesting policies which affect, more than anybody else, Mexicans. To those protesting who are not illegal immigrants, they are still Mexican Americans, many of whose parents or grandparents came here illegaly. My grandfather came here illegaly.

We are a people who are proud of are heritage. And one of the ways in which we display this pride is to fly the Mexican flag. I'm sorry if you have a problem with that, but that's the way it is, and it's not going to change anytime soon. It doesn't matter whether or not one is a citizen, or born here, we are not gonna just forget or deny where we came from. Especially when protesting policies which affect our people in an unjust way.

[RebelOne]

195. I am certain most here would not agree with me, but I support

this illegal immigration bill. I lived in Miami when Carter let all the Mariel refugees into South Florida. Our crime rate jumped 100%. The women were rude, the men were male chauvinists and they refused to speak English, so I have a legitimate gripe. Now, in Georgia, I live among quite a few Latinos (whom I am sure are illegal) and I have had some Latino neighbors from hell. If I could have proved that they were illegal, I would have had them deported in a heartbeat. Luckily for them, they moved after my multiple complaints to the mobile home park manager because they were making my life hell with their loud music and encroaching on my property like it was their own.

[Bridget Burke]

197. So--you support the REPUBLICAN bill.

Although DU is supposedly a Democratic board, quite a few on this thread agree with you.

It would be rude to assume racism from someone named "RebelOne." So I won't.

[mdmc]

201. So there is someone here that supports immigration rights?

:hi:

[im10ashus]

210. Apparently only a few of us.

Who knew? :shrug:

[mdmc]

215. Were did all these other merikans come from?

Are they Cherokee? Are they Iroquois? I bet that some of them came to this country from somewhere else.

[EFerrari]

216. Intelligent design. n/t

[im10ashus]

222. Oh. My. God!

:rofl:

That is 'effing hilarious!!!!!

[mdmc]

225. LOL !!!

Fuck yes!

[im10ashus]

229. Isn't she great?

Best response yet. :hi:

[mdmc]

234. so true

:)
:patriot:
:hi:

[im10ashus]

237. God forbid anyone cross land or sea to look for better opportunity.

You know? We wouldn't want another human being having a decent life. As long as the corporations aren't held accountable for their crappy working conditions. :hug:

[mdmc]

364. accountability

:kick::)

[EFerrari]

226. I think I and the rest of the tacos lovers in my family are going to sit

this set out.

Wild but probably useful airing out.

:loveya:

[im10ashus]

230. I think I need that drink now.

Jeopardy is over. I can concentrate now. :loveya: more

[Bridget Burke]

236. A shot of tequila & a pint of Guinness....

I did the whiskey on St Patrick's day but really prefer the multicultural combination.

[im10ashus]

240. Yes, I will have to agree.

Cross-cultural drinking can be fun, kids.

I believe a Vodka Martini (Russian) followed by a nice Cabernet (American) for dinner and then a snooty Grand Marnier (French) for dessert.

[suffragette]

244. Ok if I join you at the bar?

I could use an Armagnac and the good company of the people on this sub-thread.
:toast:

[EFerrari]

247. I personally would be honored.

:toast:

[suffragette]

248. And I am honored to join you.

:hug:

Salut!

[mdmc]

250. I'll treat you ladies / dude to a round

:toast::toast::toast:

[EFerrari]

252. And thank you for that.

Women keep the world sane. But that's another flame war. lol

:toast: my dear friends

[suffragette]

253. And I'll catch the tip

I just realized - one more post and I'll hit my 1,000th one. What a thread to hit it on.

[mdmc]

256. thats a pretty cool deal-i-o

I'm glad that I was a part of it.
:yourock::patriot::yourock::patriot::yourock::patriot::yourock::patriot::yourock::patriot::yourock::patriot::yourock::patriot::yourock::patriot::yourock::patriot::yourock::patriot::yourock::patriot::yourock::patriot::yourock::patriot::yourock::patriot::yourock::patriot::yourock::patriot::yourock::patriot::yourock::patriot::yourock::patriot::yourock::patriot::yourock::patriot::yourock::patriot::yourock::patriot::yourock::patriot::yourock::patriot::yourock::patriot::yourock::patriot::yourock::patriot::yourock::patriot::yourock::patriot::yourock::patriot::yourock::patriot::yourock::patriot::yourock::patriot::yourock::patriot::yourock::patriot::yourock::patriot::yourock::patriot::yourock::patriot::yourock::patriot::yourock::patriot::yourock::patriot::yourock::patriot::yourock::patriot::yourock::patriot::yourock::patriot::yourock::patriot::yourock::patriot::yourock::patriot::yourock::patriot::yourock::patriot::yourock::patriot::yourock::patriot::yourock::patriot::yourock::patriot::yourock::patriot:

[suffragette]

262. Here's to humanity

in all its kaleidoscopic shades, in its rich cacophony of voices, and in its intricate weave and pattern of cultures.

I embrace its diversity and acknowledge how that has enriched my life through the coming together here of my immigrant ancestors.



And that's my 1,000th post.


:woohoo:

:party: :party: :party:

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

[EFerrari]

268. What a great 1000th post!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thank you for being here!

:party: :toast: :bounce: :toast: :bounce: :party: :toast: :bounce: :party: :toast: :bounce: :hi: :kick: :hi: :kick: :hi: :kick: :loveya: :headbang: :pals: :loveya: :yourock: :woohoo: :yourock: :woohoo: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[suffragette]

273. Thank you

Guess that English Lit degree paid off finally :D

Some of my ancestors on my mother's side were Catholic French and some on my father's side were Huguenot. If ever two sides would seem like they could not get past their divisions, those are the ones. Yet, by taking very different paths to arrive here, they did. And here I am.

And glad to be in the community of DU.

[EFerrari]

293. My husband and I are both Heinz 57 but most lately from Cental and

South America.

Our genes are at war with each other.

It's so amazing to find some peace here, at DU.

DU, where the circus animals only pretend to dessert . . just to keep us on our toes.

Shanti

[suffragette]

305. I'm Heinz 57 as well.

Though more French than I realized while growing up since I didn't know my father's genealogy then. Was fortunate to go visit the small village in France that the people on my mother's side left awhile back and see things like the baptismal font from their time - the 1600's! Still need to go to Quebec since that's where they migrated in the mid 1600's before eventually making their way here.

I dated a guy from El Salvador for quite a few years. Closest I ever got to Central America. Loved his auntie's pupusas and sweet corn tamales.
Yum

:9

[proud2BlibKansan]

298. That is awesome!

:yourock:

[suffragette]

308. Ahh, thanks

I try.

[mdmc]

367. great post

:patriot:

[im10ashus]

249. You certainly may.

:toast:

This is a big tent. :-)

[suffragette]

251. Here's to big, beautiful tents

My favorite kind.

:toast:

[EFerrari]

254. Mine, too!

Absent friends and present company.

:toast:

[im10ashus]

271. And back at ya' again.

My b/f is watching Good Night, And Good Luck for the first time tonight. I've been excused from the room because I am projecting the next lines. I'm so bad. :spank:

[suffragette]

276. Love that film

love it, love it, love it

It would be hard not to say the lines with it having watched it before. They resonate so strongly.

[countryjake]

265. Bwahahaaaaha!

[Iris]

238. yes! yes! yes!

[Name removed]

213. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bridget Burke]

217. I think I do understand.

Living in Texas, I've seen a few Rebel flags.

[im10ashus]

220. And my partner is from Georgia.

I thought they were going to have to muzzle me the first time I went to visit the family there and saw a neighbor house with the flag. I was certain I was hallucinating but alas, there it was. Flying high. This damn yankee was just about apoplectic.

[lovuian]

233. You know I saw a bunch of ilegal aliens cleaning up

New Orleans and the government didn't pay them...

America isn't the dream place they thought

Cheap wages is a crime and Employers need to be jailed...

[suffragette]

242. If Bush had given the contracts to local companies

instead of to his cronies, this might be different.
I remember seeing a CBS report on this, can't remember if it was on 60 minutes or news, where the reporter pressed a union man from New Orleans to blame this on the undocumented workers. He wouldn't. He laid the blame where it belongs, on the administration.

[mdmc]

228. I hear THAT

I live in Newburgh, NY. The illegals that are here work their asses off, and cause no trouble. They get the shit beat out of them and robbed all the time because they have jobs and often need to cash checks in the inner city check cashing place.

I know that other places have other problems. Newburgh has no METH drug problem - AT ALL (the crack, coke, and heroin dealers have kept meth out of the city).

I stand by my assumption that all humans were created equally in the eyes of God.

[Iris]

239. Well, there is the debt thing.

They don't incur any because they pay with CASH! How DARE they come here and not participate in the great American game of leap frog credit card payments?

[mdmc]

255. bad merikans

Newburgh has a bunch of immigrant groups - they all seem to keep their dept down, even when they become successful. One of the biggest problems for the police in Newburgh is that illegals won't tell the cops when they get beat. The cops keep busting gangs that have cash that the cops can't account for (usually, the cops have the gang on lock down - well infiltrated, well documented activities).

Thanks for the post.

[Iris]

388. Yes, that's become a problem in Georgia as well.

Horrible stories of home invasions by people who know the immigrants have cash.

[im10ashus]

389. My friend has a cabin in the North Georgia Mountains.

There is a meat-packing plant there that employs a large number of immigrant workers. This is a beautiful town, story-book even, and with the influx of so many immigrant's, people in that little sleep town started freaking the hell out. My friend says they are the best neighbors she has ever had. Honest, clean, take care of their property and look after hers when she is not there, which is usually through the whole week. She is normally only there on the weekends. It's horrible that they, or any human, would be subjected to the police shakedowns and being harasses because of the color of their skin. It brings me to tears.

[proud2BlibKansan]

395. I teach in an urban neighborhood that has become mainly Hispanic

in the last 5 years. They have cleaned up houses that sat vacant for years. Property values have gone up. Crime has gone down. They are great neighbors. The parents are also very supportive of the school; we really have very few problems with their kids.

[lovuian]

241. If they took your job and you became unemployed

and couldn't find a job...and lost everything how would you feel about that???

[EFerrari]

243. I would feel like a resentful 10 year old that got stuck

on the playground while my best friend was elsewhere.

Think about this scenario. Really, think about it.

The Thugs are counting on you to take this bait and to alienate the Latino voting block.

Just a thought.

[mdmc]

259. pretty poor. I would feel pretty impoverished and poor.

And that is a very awful feeling. I wouldn't wish it on anyone. Really.

[pinto]

270. In all honesty, I don't buy the Mexican takeover you fear.

I may be off base. Did you lose your job to an immigrant?

[EFerrari]

221. Well, here's to your crusade to deport Cubans.

It will surely be a credit to the progressive movement. :sarcasm:

[mdmc]

231. I am so glad that your are not anti-immigration sfexpat2000

you give me hope.:kick:

[EFerrari]

245. We will be okay if we stick together.

Used to be, that's what the Democratic party did.

I will hang in if you do, as will many progressives.

:hi:

[mdmc]

257. kick

:)

[EFerrari]

260. patada

:)

[mitchum]

317. Used to be, the Democratic party was also concerned about Labor

Apparently, there is a lot of "used to bes" out there

[EFerrari]

322. Used to be , we recognized our brothers and sisters when

we saw them.

[mitchum]

327. I guess one sees everyone as "brothers and sisters" if one belong...

to that christian cult, but I'm not a member.

It's going to take a better metaphor than that to sway me.

[EFerrari]

330. I hope you find a better metaphor to keep you warm

as you alienate an important voting block.

[hedgehog]

261. Focus on a living wage first, and the rest will follow

I've worked side by side with folks who had papers that were all in order, social security cards and everything, but they walked through the Arizona desert to get to this job, so somehow I suspect that their paperwork was bogus. Good enough to cover the employer should INS come through, but bogus nonetheless. The fast is, if the US government focused on enforcing labor laws, none of us would give a damn about illegal immigration. The illegals are a threat to the rest of us only as long as they can be underpaid and overworked.

[im10ashus]

269. Hear, hear!!!

Let us aspire to a living wage for all.

It's always been and always will be about the American dream. Coming to find your dreams - isn't that what it's about? We need to take care of our human beings and not let them be exploited simply because they are here illegally. Can we fault someone for wanting a better life? Let's examine why it is we crossed land and sea, at least ancestor-ely(?), and then ask ourselves, "would we not take the same risk to cross a land or sea to find a better life?" It is a HUMAN plight. Not a political one. But it has been exploited politically. I am going to get off my high-horse now. Thank you for letting me vent. Good Night, And Good Luck. :-)

[countryjake]

272. Thank YOU, for your voice!

[countryjake]

275. That's the solution to outsourcing, also.

If labor laws were enacted worldwide, instead of all these "SHAFT-A" pacts our government keeps promoting, corporations wouldn't find it profitable to use the runaway shop as a threat to bust unions, and conditions in those nations we "deal" with wouldn't become so impossible to work and thrive within.

[im10ashus]

287. And that would be a great thing, IMHO.

If these corporations are so bent on NAFTA, let's lay down some human-rights laws. Plain and simple.

[mitchum]

300. That photo warms the heart of all CHEAP LABOR CONSERVATIVES

[Critters2]

302. Yep!

Yet we keep hoping it'll win us Democratic votes.

Logic is hard.

[im10ashus]

335. Yes. Because hard work belongs to the repugs.

:sarcasm:

[EFerrari]

304. Sure. And the hearts of workers who want to get out from under.

Your challenge is to distinguish between these groups.

[Critters2]

311. Out from under what?

How does driving wages down get anyone out from under?

[EFerrari]

316. Might want to ask that question from the folks that set the wages. nt

[Critters2]

321. Those who work the most cheaply set the wages

The market pays what the market will bear. If you're the lowest bidder, you get the job. Illegal immigrants are the lowest bidders. They set the low end of the scale.

[EFerrari]

325. And that is the Thug talking point.

Poor people don't set the wage.

Please.

[Critters2]

326. That is simple economics

An excess of workers, willing to work cheap, will drive down wages. Basic supply and demand.

[EFerrari]

329. But we don't live in the wild

Do we?

Supply and demand, my @ss.

I guess "supply and demand" is why undocumented workers were bussed into New Orleans. Because there was no one else who wanted those jobs?

The corporations regulate everything that suits them.

Get it. The enemy of Labor is not other workers.

[Critters2]

331. If illegals, or anyone else, refused to take jobs for less than minimum

there'd be no jobs for less than minimum. Certainly the corporations are grateful that the illegal immigrants will work for shit, but it's the workers who accept the jobs at those wages.

And without strong unions and good regulation, we do live in the wild. And illegal immigrants undermine both strong unions and good regulation.

[EFerrari]

332. Good thinking! Let's blame workers for taking the jobs they can get.

Make the GOP happy. Go for it.

[Critters2]

333. Your little parades are what are making the Repugs happy

They love cheap labor! Holding parades advocating for it leaves the corporations who fund the GOP just all smiles, I'm sure.

And it'll lose us more votes. Good thinking.

[EFerrari]

334. You have no idea that these marches are against

a Republican bill, do you?

And, is this the way you hold up the big tent?

Nice.

[Critters2]

337. I do know what the marches are about

I also know what the net effect will be. Showing people, many of whom are not citizens, marching against tighter security and law enforcement is a loser for us. Count on it.

[EFerrari]

339. Marching against security? Lol!

You're right!

Those al Qaida stroller pushers and gardeners MUST BE STOPPED.

:rofl:

[Critters2]

341. Have you decided which losing Dem's concession party you're going to?

There'll be plenty!

[EFerrari]

348. Have you decided which Thug concession party you're going to?

There'll be plenty.

:hi:

[Critters2]

350. Not if we keep playing into their hands on this issue

Karl is gonna have just lots of fun making Dems look like the party in favor of illegal immigration. And he'll hardly have to raise a finger. Dems are doing all the work for him.

[EFerrari]

353. You still don't get it. This isn't about Karl.

This is about Democratic values that are so vital, so strong, thousands of people hit the street.

Do you think Karl or Junior have a fucking prayer against that kind of commitment? :)

[Critters2]

355. Cheap labor is NOT a Democratic value!

Or at least it wasn't until recently. And again, how many of those thousands are voters? And how many other voters watched these rallies, with Mexican flags and illegal workers, and were put off? More voters didn't march today than did.

[EFerrari]

360. Correct. Cheap labor is not a Democratic value.

And, I have no way of knowing how many DINOs bailed today.

:hi:

[im10ashus]

342. So we should remain silent?

That's your plan?

[Critters2]

344. My plan is REQUIRING employers to pay a living wage

And punishing them for hiring from the labor black market.

What part of that is so difficult to comprephend?

[im10ashus]

349. At what point did you reveal your plan?

And you have yet to make a comprehensive argument for any argument, pro or con.

[Critters2]

351. This has been my argument all along

Pay a decent wage, and we won't need undocumented workers. Pay what the work is really worth. Im not sure why this is so hard to get. A decent, living wage. That's all I'm asking for. It used to be the goal of the Democratic Party.

[im10ashus]

356. And I am not sure why you haven't got that most of us agree.

Pay a decent wage. Take a look back at your arguments. You have been arguing with yourself. And as far as "paying what the work is worth." Who decides that? You need to make a better argument for whatever the fuck it is you are trying to say. Understand?

[Critters2]

359. Unions used to decide it

before illegal immigrants who could be cowed away from the unions became a major labor force. Now, the corporations and cheap labor decides.

[im10ashus]

365. And your point is?

Make a cognitive statement, for chrissakes. If you are going to represent MY party, I want you to have a fucking clue. What is your point? Let's educate us if we are to carry a movement forward. If that doesn't interest you, then I don't know what to say.

[im10ashus]

340. And what the fuck is the alternative?

complacency? Explain to me because I am apparently too dense to understand how remaining silent has served anyone!!!!

[Critters2]

343. The alternative is paying a decent wage!!

Not encouraging workers to come here to work at the lowest wage possible, and celebrating when they do!!
Holding big fucking parades to show just how many workers are willing to undo the work of unions and undercut the wages of citizens only pisses off citizens. And, see, they're the ones who get to vote.

[im10ashus]

346. You are being condescending.

And that is serving only yourself. "Encouraging workers to come here." Um, that's the American dream. You don't own it. You didn't patent it. Get over it. Honestly.

[Critters2]

347. Corporations are encouraging it.

And you're helping them.

Real progressive of you.

[im10ashus]

354. Are you SERIES?

:sarcasm:

You honestly are starting to reveal some seriously latent repuglican viewpoints and I recommend a good dose of Jameson's.

[Critters2]

358. So corporations DON'T benefit from cheap labor?

And voters will vote against their own economic interests? Yeah, that's likely.

[EFerrari]

362. Yeah. They'd just as soon vote for a frat boy like George

oops!

[Name removed]

363. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Critters2]

368. How am I confused?

Corporations want to make as much profit as possible. To do this, they want to pay workers as little as possible. Illegal immigrants are willing to work for less than unionized citizens. By hiring them corporations drive wages down, and displace workers who were making better money. The more illegal immigrants, the lower the wages, the bigger the profits. And the more resentment from those whose wages and/or jobs have been undercut by illegal immigration.

By holding parades in favor of loose borders, with tens of thousands of presumably illegal workers marching for rights they are not guaranteed, the Dem Party alienates those who resent the presence of these workers. Those citizens vote Republican, because they see that as in their economic interest.

The only way this is good for the Dems is if there are more voters in favor of these workers than against, which isn't likely.

Dems lose elections, giving the corporate Repubs (who are also undermining US workers) more latitude to write more laws that give corporations more power.

No one wins but Wal-mart.

[im10ashus]

371. How?

How are we giving latitude? We are bringing labor issues to the forefront. How is that giving latitude?

[EFerrari]

376. Wal-mart will not win.

They have done the unforgivable.

They have fucked with el pueblo.

[im10ashus]

387. So we should just sit back and let the GOP have their way?

No protests or parades to show solidarity? Good thinking. We need more leaders like you. :sarcasm:

[proud2BlibKansan]

400. You must not be paying attention

These parades are NOT advocating cheap labor. Get a clue.

[Critters2]

440. They certainly are

[mitchum]

313. Your challenge isn't my job...I don't work for INS

[EFerrari]

315. True, but you (hopefully ) vote your values. n/t

[QC]

310. The Cheap Labor Liberals are pleased as punch with it, too. n/t

[Critters2]

312. Cheap labor and easy votes

Nothing is every really cheap, or easy, though. And we always learn that too late.

[EFerrari]

319. I agree. n/t

[Name removed]

336. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[EFerrari]

320. What the fuck is a cheap labor liberal?

[EFerrari]

357. Why does this thread only have 12 votes?

:)

[im10ashus]

366. Because we are 12 people talking about it.

:-)

But that makes 12 angry jurors.

[EFerrari]

369. I just love you. And I hope we get out of this Okay corral alive.

:)

[im10ashus]

370. Me too.

And I love you too. :loveya:

[EFerrari]

373. All will be well and all manner of thing will be well.

There has been a ton of fear seeded.

Boo!

[countryjake]

372. I nominated it before lunch, ha!

I have a feeling some would rather not have their positions known by the general flock. And those other posts have dropped into the netherland so far I can't even find them.

[EFerrari]

374. Sanity will prevail, countryjake., We just have to give it tiempo.

:)

[im10ashus]

375. And it is 1:15 a.m. on my coast.

I need to put on some nice music. A little Miles Davis perhaps? :-)

[EFerrari]

377. A good choice. I'm retreating into Van Morrison.

Thanks.

[im10ashus]

378. OHHHHHH!

There is nothing like cognac and "Moondance" to finish an evening. LOVE me some Van Morrison. Warm and fuzzy. I am actually, headphones on so as not to wake the b/f, listening to a version of "Moondance" by Michael Buble. :-) Guilty! Miles is next.

[EFerrari]

379. Next time we do this, let's remember to take some echinechea

:wow:

[im10ashus]

380. LOL!

I feel you, sister. It's exhausting fighting crime. :D

[EFerrari]

382. You were great. That doesn't happen every day.

I'm going to fall over now and be grateful.

:toast:

[im10ashus]

383. So were you.

Here's to us! :toast:

To the cause! :toast:

To us! :toast:

Repeat. :-) Why do I feel so infinitely sad? This is really a hot-button issue we must discuss when we are more rested.

[EFerrari]

385. I'm dead but agree. So many seem to have bought into the fear.

As if al Qaida nannys and gardeners are just waiting to burst the bubble, somehow. As if some economy of lack will eat us all up.

Night and thank you. :hug:

[im10ashus]

386. And many happy returns.

:0

Nothing like Miles to take away the blues.

[Iris]

452. hey, you! I see you've been fighting the good fight all afternoon.

A little Van Morrison will do ya good.

Sorry I missed all this. I was on fire last night but have a big deadline I'm working against today.

[lonestarnot]

392. Here is another link

http://www.azfamily.com/news/local/stories/KTVKLNews20060324_immigration-march.58b160cf.html

[im10ashus]

393. Drat.

Do I "have" to register? :-)

[lonestarnot]

394. Yeah but it's no big deal really. Worth a read, they finally got numbers

in attendance pretty close. Amazing!

[im10ashus]

396. WOW!

That's a LOT of people.

PHOENIX -- Phoenix police estimate that 20,000 people participated in today's immigrant rights march in Phoenix. The city says it's one of the largest marches in Phoenix history.

Phoenix police say the marchers were peaceful and there are no reports of arrests or other misconduct during the march up 24th Street.

The Phoenix Police Department says march organizers didn't have a permit and grossly underestimated how many would be participating in the massive march.

Many marchers say they turned out to protest an immigration reform proposal approved by the U.S. House in December that would make unlawful presence in the United States a felony.

The marchers clogged 24th Street as they walked from McDowell Road to the uptown offices of Sen. Jon Kyl at Camelback and 22nd Street. Kyl is co-sponsoring a bill that would give illegal immigrants up to five years to leave the country.

[lonestarnot]

398. Some local businesses bent because they lost business.

[EFerrari]

403. Can't blame them. But, they'd be more bent

in the long run, when they lose their civil rights.

[lonestarnot]

405. I'd be willing to wager that they don't know what civil rights are.

[EFerrari]

414. I know. I have several friends that are small business owners.

What they do is very tough and we try to rally the 'hood for them.

Who has time to think when you're fighting for your life.

[lonestarnot]

415. Well I don't entirely blame them. You have no time for anything but the

business when you own it, you sleep it, read it, eat it, drink it.

[EFerrari]

423. You got that right. And, these small business owners MAKE

the neighborhood they are in.

We have an couple around the corner that operates a surfer coffee house. They give so much to the community in all kinds of ways. The 'hood looks for ways to support them because they are treasures.

We were able to come together and tell Starbucks to go somewhere else. That was cool.

/typin'

[lonestarnot]

430. Starbucks take a hike! Way cool!

[EFerrari]

401. WOW! I wonder what the numbers will be in our MIssion district

this weekend.

The sleeper issue seems to be awake long before the Thugs want us to wake up. Oops!

[im10ashus]

402. Yep. The Ambien has worn off.

Bastards. :-)

Today in L.A. is going to kick ass!!! 500,000 or more expected.

[lonestarnot]

406. woooodamnwhoo! Do they have a permit?

[im10ashus]

408. I am not sure.

My guess would be yes. They would most likely need one.

But take a look at THIS little spin. See how the conservatives are spinning this? "Pro-illegal immigration" my ass. :mad:

Saturday Pro Illegal Immigrant Marches Planned
March 25, 2006 08:30 AM EST

By Sher Zieve – The pro-illegal immigrant contingent organizers are planning for “hundreds of thousands” to march through downtown Los Angeles on Saturday. They are reported to be working toward shutting down commerce in the city.
The organizers, said in part to be sponsored by left-wing groups including Open Borders and MEChA, are protesting the border security bill that passed the US House of Representatives in December and is still awaiting passage by the US Senate. One of the organizers Javier Rodriguez said: "It is a crusade to force the right-wing government to give us legalization, and we are not going to take anything less!"

Saturday’s Los Angeles protests are part of a larger plan of organized country-wide demonstrations of illegals and illegal-supporters, scheduled for the rest of March and throughout April.

http://www.theconservativevoice.com/article/13344.html

[lonestarnot]

410. There's talk of fining local organizers for failure to secure a permit

here. Fuck the finers I say!

[im10ashus]

413. This must be what they meant when they said "give me your poor...

...your downtrodden." :sarcasm:

[EFerrari]

417. Gimme your credit card number . . . . n/t

[im10ashus]

418. Should I give you my SSN too?

:-)

[EFerrari]

420. LOL! Okay, but it better be Migra proof. n/t

[im10ashus]

421. Sure thing.

But what does the Michigan Gay Rodeo Association want with it? :rofl:

[EFerrari]

424. Lol!

:rofl:

[im10ashus]

425. Don't you just LOVE Google?

http://www.migraonline.com/

:rofl:

[EFerrari]

426. I hafta call all the illegal humans I know and hook them up!

:rofl:

[EFerrari]

409. Lol! Would you want to be the poor cop that tells thousands of people

"Go home, you have no permit."

Movie suggestion for this weekend: Beg, borrow or rent "The Milagro Beanfield War"

It will make you happy. Robert Redford directed it. It's a comedy with stuff in it. :)

[lonestarnot]

412. Cop with bullhorn, "Go home and get your friends and come back."

[EFerrari]

416. Lol! I hope everyone stays safe today, in or out of uniform.

:)

[suffragette]

447. Great film

How about a double feature with "My Family/Mi Familia"

http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/19950503/REVIEWS/505030301/1023

:popcorn:

[EFerrari]

407. Well, lol, that means a LOT of scared people will be calling in

to WJ. Gosh, I haven't been paying enough attention.

In some ways, San Francisco is 'way more straight than L.A. We sing "diversity" up here but there are still many fewer productive alliances than there are in L.A.

Or, HelLA, as my saxguy brother calls it. :)

[im10ashus]

411. If I had to choose between the two...

...as to where to live, San Fran wins in a landslide. That's just me though. :-)

[EFerrari]

428. SF has the "village" thing going where L.A. doesn't.

But in my limited experience, L.A. is more flexible, really does have a stake in the Big tent.

I can get actions put out nearly immediately in L.A. Up here, it has to go through a committee.

Maybe I don't get the fine points.

/spelllin'

[im10ashus]

438. HOLY CRAP!!!!

Look at all these people:



Thousands of people stream into downtown Los Angeles for what was expected to be one of the city's largest pro-immigrant rallies, Saturday, March 25, 2006. Many of the marchers wore white shirts to symbolize peace and also waved U.S. flags. Some also carried the flags of Mexico and other countries. 'The crowd is estimated at 25,000 and growing,' said police spokeswoman Sandra Escalante. (AP Photo/Matt Warnock)

[tjwash]

419. "God created all of us. He's not a God of the United States..."

"...but a God of the world."

I like that. I wish more people in this arrogant country of ours would actually remember that.

[im10ashus]

422. I LOVE your Murrow pic.

We just watched Good Night, And Good Luck again last night. :hi:

[im10ashus]

439. A big turnout in LA today.

As the Senate prepares to debate legislation increasing penalties for undocumented aliens and people who hire them, tens of thousands of immigrants rights activists are launching rallies across the nation.

The House of Representatives has passed legislation that would make it a felony to be in the U.S. illegally, impose new penalties on employers who hire illegal immigrants and erect fences along one-third of the U.S.-Mexican border. The Senate is to begin debating the proposals on Tuesday.

On Saturday, thousands of people streamed into downtown Los Angeles for what was expected to be one of the city's largest pro-immigrant rallies. Many of the marchers wore white shirts to symbolize peace and also waved U.S. flags. Some also carried the flags of Mexico and other countries, and even wore them as capes.

"The crowd is estimated at 25,000 and growing," said police spokeswoman Sandra Escalante.

Elger Aloy, 26, of Riverside, a premed student who was pushing a stroller with his 8-month-old son, said of the proposed law, "I think it's just inhumane ... everybody deserves the right to a better life."

cont'd...

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-protest26mar26,0,3771225.story?coll=la-home-headlines

[suffragette]

451. "Many of the marchers wore white shirts to symbolize peace"

Looking at the photos, I would say the majority of marchers did this.

What a great double whammy: For peace and against the Republican legislation.

Though you wouldn't know it's Republican legislation that's being protested against unless you already knew. Interesting that the article only calls this "federal legislation," mentions proposals by Bush and Frist and doesn't mention the Kennedy proposal at all. I guess the AP doesn't find it worth noting that.

[im10ashus]

455. I heard someone on the news call it the "war on humanity."

I thought that seemed about as descriptive a term we could apply. The Kennedy/McCain proposal is being trashed in the media. I saw Bay :puke: Buchanan on CNN chirping the repug meme.

[suffragette]

469. Why does that not surprise me?

It does piss me off, though.
:mad:

Interesting headline and 1st paragraphs from the BBC article on it here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4846032.stm

US activists rally for immigrants

Ten of thousands of activists have been rallying in Los Angeles in the US state of California to protest against plans to criminalise undocumented workers.

Organiser Javier Rodriguez said demonstrators wanted a immigration system that was humane and not racist.

My italics added, but the bolding is from BBC.


It also notes counter protests are scheduled next week. First I've heard of that.

[im10ashus]

470. Counter-protests?

WTF? The rally in Boston? That's going to be interesting. All the Irish immigrants protesting against the Mexican immigrants. The new wedge issue is going to be race this season? I knew this outfit was all wrong.

[suffragette]

473. Yeah, when I saw that I said

:wtf: as well.

[im10ashus]

474. We are coming to a crossroads in our party/platform, suffragette.

It's not going to be pretty. :hug:

[suffragette]

476. Agree

It's already gotten damn ugly in some of these threads.

But from what I've seen the leaders I admire, Senator Boxer and Governor Dean today for example, are setting out on a path which I can take. too.
And that gives me hope. As do you :hug:

[im10ashus]

477. Don't lose focus.

As I was saying to my friend Beth, this is the new fight. We can't let them divide us as a party. :hug: Fight the power!

[suffragette]

480. Yep, no matter how hard they try,

we can't let them succeed in dividing us.

:hug:

[im10ashus]

482. As my friend Patsy would say.

"We rock, bitches!"

[suffragette]

484. Oh, yeah.

And together, we make a loud and joyful noise.

[im10ashus]

471. It no longer surprises us because we have seen it all.

That's the sadness of it all. We have seen all acts of gall with this administration.

[suffragette]

475. Yep, and looks like their nasty little bills have even more surprises

I posted about it here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2188514&mesg_id=2188514

Looks like they've tucked in a provision to move immigration cases which would swamp the judges, strain the legal system and likely lead to people being delayed and/or denied justice.

They get a two-fer: attack immigrants and the justice system at the same time.

[bridgit]

450. the time of the white power elite, oligarchic, european male...

is coming to an end.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

453. And, it's long overdue.

Speaking as a white, European, male. Non-oligarchic, and certainly not in the power elite.

[im10ashus]

460. It is the white power elite who are trying to pass this bill.

Let's hope it blows up in their face and this block of voters sends them packing.

[bridgit]

461. that will work for me just fine, friend, they are not impervious...

in spite of whatever delusion they harbor :hi:

[im10ashus]

462. Me too.

:hi: There are some who think making them felons is the answer. On this board. Unbelievable. :shrug:

[lovuian]

464. We will see what happens... this picture just confirms that

the Borders have been wide open for years and millions have come into california compliments of Bush... I hope these people fight for higher wages ....... I can only hope they are ready to vote the Republicans out... I'm definitely for that what irony that the guy who let them in is the guy they are now fighting...or are they???

america is a land of Immigrants but controlled immigration where we make sure we are not bringing in a army of taliban drug dealers or thieves... We want the immigrant whose going to be a tax paying law abiding American.......and want decent wages for their families.......

We are looking at a sea of have nots and hopefully they will turn this country into everybody being a have... Thats what makes this country beautiful...

[im10ashus]

466. Thanks for that.

I firmly agree. :hi:

[radio4progressives]

490. Millions have been "entering our borders" for over a century and half

In California, I would venture to hazard a guess that undocumented workers from Mexico have been working our fields since the establishment of huge Agricultural Businesses in the interial valleys of California, such as the San Joaquin and Imperial Valleys which was nearly, or just under a hundred years ago.

Whatever the actual historical stats, this is probably the only issue that President Bush happens to be on the "side of the angels", remarkably as i just heard it stated on KO.

the issue of undocumented workers in this country did nto begin with either Bush administration.

Also, it is interesting to note, that a significant part of the Latino/a voting block went to Bush in the last two elections, according political analyst Charlie Cook (i think he said 25%)...

[4freethinking]

487. You may want to re think that

I have 4 friends I have known from my old neighborhood and high school who all run successful contracting businesses who are millionaires that employ illegal aliens and are male and white.

I don't know if you noticed. Our politicians have a tendency to listen more to people who have cash and give it to them. I say their numbers may be going down but their power and influence is going up because their able to exploit the situation.