Church members beat, hog-tie burglary suspect

[TX-RAT]

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/localnews/content/local_news/epaper/2006/03/24/0324burglar.html?cxtype=rss&cxsvc=7&cxcat=17

[gratuitous]

1. Absolutely nauseating

I guess reading the Bible isn't required at the Church of the Nazarene in West Palm Beach, Florida.

"At about 1 this morning, a man broke in. Church members were waiting for him inside. They beat him with their bats and tied him up with tape."

Shame.

[LisaL]

81. Nauseating? WTF were they supposed to do? Gather up

their belongings and give it to the guy? If he broke into the private residence, and got beaten up and tied up, people would be applauding the private citizens who apprehended a burglar. Hey, they could have killed him and people would still be applauding them.

[MODemocrat]

94. I'm not an attorney, but if their lives were not being threatened

they might have detained him and called the authorities. It does tend to make one angry to have someone stealing what does not belong to them; (I've been through that just recently), but had they killed him, they would have been in a heap of trouble. He needs to go to jail and rot.

:nopity:

[ProdigalJunkMail]

101. not in many jurisdictions

In GA if someone has broken into your home or place of work you are within your rights to shoot them. You have no reason to expect that if they will take your property they might not take something more important...so, shooting them is justified.

sP

[MODemocrat]

166. Thanks for that, I wasn't aware of that

A friend of mine years ago, shot and killed a burglar as he was crawling in through a window, and it took all kinds of legal manuevers to find him not guilty of murder. As you can tell by my username, I'm from Missouri, and I've never been proud of the Missouri laws on that scenario.

[ladjf]

120. Good post. Further, had the burglars been armed, a massacre

could have occurred, all for the price of a few objects and perhaps a sense of pride.

I have read all the posts in this thread. It alarms me to read the amount of anger that seems to be driving the posts. A lot of people are just looking for excuses to be brutal and a lot of people are living on constant fear that something is going to be taken from them.

Something has been taken from all of them. The Government of the U.S. has be captured by a band of thugs known as the Republican Party. Their right to vote in an honest election,to communicate without
eavesdropping, to work at fair wages,to afford trans portion on other necessities and many more things
have most definitely been "taken from them" by people infinitely more dangerous than the church burglars. I'd like to see their sense of territorial rights focused on the Bush administration with the same passion.

[MODemocrat]

164. Way to go ladjf, Bush's government is stripping us of so many things

They're threatening the livelihood of poor children, and the ill people, as well as sending innocent peolple to fight a battle they, themselves would not touch with a ten foot pole. I've no use for anyone who lies or steals, and in my opinion, Bush and Cheney top the list of both of those crimes.
:argh:

[Clark2008]

218. Did you ever think this may be WHY people are becoming

more brutal?

The burglar may have lost his well-paying job or, in the alternative, never could have any hope of finding a well-paying job because student loans have been cut over the course of several years. Or, perhaps, his time spent growing up was a constant struggle since his, perhaps, single mother, had to work three jobs to survive (granted, I have no idea about the burglar's life and am not making excuses for him, but understand that growing up hard lessens one's choices in adulthood. Doesn't mean he shouldn't be responsible for his actions as an adult - it's just that his childhood may have become the causation of his actions as an adult. If he is truly guilty, he should have the book thrown at him).

And, the church members? Well, perhaps the gloom of the current bully pulpit has caused the nation to slip into a malaise that manifests itself in a "me, me, me" attitude by the citizenry of this country: there's no justice, no hope and no recourse for the stripping away of our civil rights, so people turn to "protecting" themselves in the most simplistic forms - protecting of baubles and property - since they don't feel they can protect their American rights. These same church members probably supported ShrubCo. after a years-long series of propaganda designed to set up greedy Republicans as somehow holders of the faith. These church members may not even be aware that they've been brainwashed by a controlled corporate media and neo-conservative propaganda.

I don't blame the church members for protecting their property and holding the allegedly guilty party responsible, but it does seem they went a bit overboard in their defenses.

[NaturalHigh]

229. In Sunday School this morning...

our teacher taught about the importance of loving our wives and meeting their emotional needs. In church service, our pastor talked about the importance of forgiveness and not holding grudges and praying for those who have wronged us. There was no mention of politics and no "gloom and doom" that I can recall.

[Eric J in MN]

209. They had him outnumbered. They could have tied him up without

beating him with baseball bats.

[Taxloss]

2. A faith-based initiative?

Their approach strikes me as a bit - how to put it - over-zealous.

[BOSSHOG]

3. Over zealous zealots??

[danalytical]

10. Poor criminal just wanted to steal

from a church. Honestly I don't like the fact that these people actually beat a man with baseball bats, but on the other hand how do you know these people weren't scared out of their wits but sick of being burglarized? Imagine a bunch of church going family men waiting around a church at night with bats, and then someone breaks in... These people were probably a lot scared, yet determined to stop their church from constantly being burglarized while the criminal kept getting away. I would err on the side of the church goers first, I bet they just wanted to subdue him with as little risk to themselves as possible, and at the same time stop the constant break ins. I know when dealing with someone crazy and desperate enough to risk harm to themselves by robbing someone else, that I should avoid any potential bodily fluid contact. I was robbed in Vancouver BC when I was a teen on a road trip, I found a heroin addicted bum the next morning with my sweatshirt on and it was covered with blood. On one hand I wanted to beat the guy to the ground, on the other I didn't want to risk being infected with some disease. All I'm pointing out is that, these people might just have been scared and fed up. It is also possible that they are a bunch of fundie wackos, I'll concede that.

[EstimatedProphet]

29. Dude, THEY TIED HIM UP!

Any kind of claim to self-defense or reacting out of fear stops when they tied him up! He became non-threatening at that point. Legally (and ethically) the right thing to do is then to call the police and have him charged.

[danalytical]

46. Why do you keep inferring the man was tied THEN beaten?

It doesn't say that anywhere in the article. There is no basis for that, in fact the opposite is most likely true. They probably had to use force to restrain him, e.g. baseball bats.

[kestrel91316]

177. I think you're right. They probably whacked him soundly to

disable him so they could get him duct taped and restrained. I can't say I wouldn't have done the same thing. Actually, I might very well have kept whacking under the circumstances.

Hope he still hurts. I bet this taught him more of a lesson than the courts do.

[LisaL]

82. And they did call the police. If he broke into a private home,

he could have been legally shot and no one would blame the shooter.

[gratuitous]

34. My church building has been broken into

I've attended my present congregation for about 13 years. During that time, we've been broken into on numerous occasions, had the front of the building egged, just recently had a pentagram and 666 spray-painted on the front wall of the church. We've had windows broken, the church sign graffiti-ed, the back parking lot graffiti-ed, the basketball hoop in the back broken down completely (and this with a steel basket support filled with concrete), lights smashed, the office broken into, several television monitors and microphones ripped off, and just about every other sort of vandalism and theft you can name.

Yeah, we're fed up. We don't like it. But scared? So addicted to our worldly goods that we would hurt another person over them? Not a chance. No way. Uh uh. I can't identify with a Christianity that would say it's okay to beat another person and hog-tie him for any reason, and I don't condone what the folks in West Palm Beach did in any way.

[Rose Siding]

39. Thank you

They BEAT him. I can't believe anyone can condone that. What happens to people's perspective?

[LisaL]

83. Then your church is going to have the same fun for the next 13 years.

Obviously you are prepared to deal with it. Some people are not.
And frankly, I am fond of my property and see nothing wrong with apprehending a burglar.
Again, if this was done by a private citizen, people would be applauding him for his bravery in apprehending a criminal.

[gratuitous]

158. There's a BIG difference

There's a big difference between apprehending a burglar and beating and hog-tying a burglar. If members of our church came upon someone in the midst of walking off with yet another set of microphones, of course we'd try to intervene. But to beat that person with a baseball bat? Sorry, that's just beyond the pale if someone is going to hold himself out as a Christian.

[ladjf]

143. I don't think your case is one of burglary. Seems more like a

serious disagreement about philosophies. Somebody is very angry about something related to your church. That needs to be addressed.

[gratuitous]

159. You may be right

Standing against the concept of war and redemptive violence, as the Church of the Brethren does, lets us in for all sorts of wild reactions from people who want to justify things such as . . . well, beating a man with a baseball bat for breaking into your church building.

[ladjf]

161. There was a national poll last week that showed that among

all groups of people, including convicted felons, religious groups, atheist were trusted by Americans less than anyone on the list. Their concept of atheist is that since they don't believe in God that they will automatically be without morals, as though the road to morality is through the belief in God or Gods. I wasn't surprised.

[Clark2008]

221. If atheists in general, are like some of the ones on this board,

I think it's not that people think they have no morals - it's because they're rude and unaccepting of other peoples' beliefs.

Atheists here tell the people of faith that we believe in "fairy tales." If they'd just keep that nougat of opinion to themselves and accept - like a progressive should - that other people have different beliefs and opinions and stop trying to force their beliefs on us by being rude, it would go a long way to their being accepted as "trustworthy."

The adverse is certainly true, as well, so don't get me wrong. I don't like fundies forcing their version of the Bible down my throat any better than I like being told I believe in fairy tales. The difference is we expect, by definition, that most fundies are closed-minded and not of the allegedly progressive mind-set that many atheists say they are. Progressives - atheists or not - should KNOW not to be so rigid and should learn to accept that, just because they think God is a myth, that others don't and have well-adjusted views of religion. Not every Christian is a fundie, not every Muslim is a terrorist and not every Jew thinks Israelis should kill or confine Palestinians.

Edited to add: My son's soccer coach heads a support group for homeschooling parents who are agnostic or atheist and I think he's a wonderful and moral man. But, he doesn't stand at the games and tell me I'm an idiot who believes in fairy tales, either.

[NaturalHigh]

227. When an atheist tells me that...

the church and the criminal are "pretty much the same," then I understand that poll completely.

[gollygee]

160. It's the "waiting around with baseball bats" part that freaks me out

Why couldn't they have waited outside in a van with a cell phone ready to call 911?

[NaturalHigh]

167. Then the criminals would more than likely...

have gotten away with the church's property long before the police arrived. As it worked out, one of them is in jail on burglary charges and will not be out robbing anyone tonight.

[gollygee]

168. Why do you assume that?

Around here anyway, if you call in a robbery in progress the cops show up right away. Was there some reason they thought the police would not show up?

[NaturalHigh]

208. Probably because the cops hadn't done anything...

to help up to that point. If you've read the story, it did say that they had been broken into several times.

[gollygee]

211. Yeah but it didn't say if

they had tried to contact the police as it was happening before. I mean if they were waiting there with baseball bats, they could just as easily been waiting outside with a cell phone.

If they'd tried that and the police *still* hadn't done anything, I can understand them wanting to do something themselves, but I still think they "lost it" this time. Emotionally I mean. That's the problem with vigilante justice, people (naturally) get emotional and what was supposed to be simply stopping a crime and some intimidation turns into a guy being beaten half to death by a bunch of baseball bats.

[NaturalHigh]

213. Sorry, I can't work up any sympathy for this turd.

The impression that I got was that the criminal was beaten when he tried to get away, not that he was tied up and then beaten. I don't know where so many people here got the impression that the parishioners tied this guy up and then beat him for kicks. It probably has something to do with their bias against churches and religion in general.

[gollygee]

219. That's not the impression I had

I figured he probably got beaten and then got tied up. I just think that many people could have tied him up without him being beaten to that excess.

This has nothing to do with religion. It could have been someone's house or business just as easily. Why do you think it has to do with people's opinions about religion?

[NaturalHigh]

225. Have you even been reading the posts on this thread?

Have you seen the posts from people who have ridiculed religion? What about the posts from people who have said that this might have been fine in a home but not in a church? The church-bashers have been out in force on this post.

[gollygee]

230. I've read part but not all

I must have missed those. I'll have to read more of the posts in this thread I guess.

[Clark2008]

222. Yep - see my post above about so-called progressive

atheists on this board: those that ask that we respect their rights not to believe, but call us idiots who believe in fairy tales in return. That's not progressive or liberal.

I think too many people here think that all Christian churches are chalked full of fundie nuts. Granted, there are many of them - too many of them - but I know a great number of Christians who follow Jesus' word and not the Old Testament, like fundie nuts seem to do.

[immoderate]

233. I see nothing about atheists in the original story.

Why would you bring it up?

--IMM

[Big Kahuna]

4. Beat the love of Jesus into that sinner!

Brother Maynard, consult the Book of Armaments!

[valerief]

5. When madness reigns, mercy wanes.

[MADem]

6. Oh, how lovely, they took PICTURES!!!

What a friend we have in ... Louisville Slugger????

[LisaL]

180. As evidence.

[MADem]

196. If it were evidence, the police would have it--those were a souvenier

Hey, the jerk shouldn't have been breaking into a church, but if that was evidence, it would be held for trial, not published in the paper.

[NaturalHigh]

214. You don't think the police have a copy?

Lots of evidence photos are published in the paper.

[MADem]

224. Really? I've never seen one in the paper before a trial. After, yes n/t

[IdaBriggs]

7. Good for them. Bad things happen to burglars.

I'm a fan of "Law & Order" and I approve of their actions.

Moral of the Story: DON'T STEAL (because people with bats might get you).

And I'm glad they didn't use a gun on him.

[MrSlayer]

8. I don't see the problem.

If no one else is going to deal with the problem you have to do it yourself. No one told that guy to break into the church. He was trespassing and is lucky they didn't just shoot him. I'm guessing no charges will be filed against them.

[TomInTib]

12. I agree. Under Florida law they could have shot him on the spot.

[LisaL]

85. Exactly. Does "stand your ground" law rings a bell to anyone?

They could have shot him and wouldn't be charged. All they did is beat him up -maybe the next time he will think before breaking and entering someone else's property.

[ladjf]

121. And maybe next time he will show up with an AK47 based upon

the "lesson that he learned".

I have an idea that will doubtlessly crack you up because it will seem so silly.

Obviously, the church members outnumbered the burglars. After the burglar climbed through the window, what would likely have happened had they suddenly turned on the lights? He would have probably fled out of the window. What lesson would he have learned? That the church members were on the look out for burglars and that he had better not rob them any more. Isn't that what they wanted him to learn? If, on the other hand, he had been armed and willing to use it, bad things There plan to tie subdue him and tie him up was an unnecessary and for them, a needless risk.

Or, if the burglar did not flee immediately, what if the good Christians ask him what his intentions were? Would he have told them that he had intended to rob the church and proceeded to do so if not stopped?

[LisaL]

129. I really don't know what he would do. Why don't you find him

and ask him?

[ladjf]

135. The church people could have installed a burglar alarm after

the previous burglaries, or perhaps beefed up the window situation.

[NaturalHigh]

138. Waiting for him to break in and then "subduing" him...

seemed to work just fine. Another criminal in jail and off the streets - too bad they didn't catch his buddy too.

[LisaL]

182. Exactly. Police never catch anyone.

We have some guy from the street coming into my place of work, stealing everything he thinks he can sell. Police knows who he is-but did they arrest him-hell no. We caught this guy in the act-of course we didn't have bats handy, but I sure wouldn't be crying if someone else beat the crap out of him. As for waiting for police to do something-you will grow old and die before that happens.
The police don't even take crimes like this seriously.

[Telly Savalas]

220. By that line of thinking, it would have been even more effective

if the church members castrated him with a dull butter knife. That'd certainly make him think again before he considers breaking and entering. Would you advocate that?

[ladjf]

32. What ever happened to due process? The said he was a suspect.

[MrSlayer]

36. They caught him red-handed.

What would you have liked them to do? Say "Halt! In the name of the law" or what? Like he would have hung around for the police to arrive. They grabbed the guy, subdued him and called the cops. Again, he's lucky they didn't kill him. I have no problem at all with what happened here.

[ladjf]

37. The problem is a matter of establishing precedents of

vigilante action. So, they caught the guy red handed. (1) Did they know his identity? (2) Was it possible to restrain him until the cops arrive? (3) if not, they should have let him flee but called the cops. With that many witnesses, the cops could have located him.

I know it sounds like good justice to catch the guy and beat hell out of him. But, the fact is, if they were able to tie him up, why not wait for the police. If they have the right to administer justice without the court decision, then where will the line be drawn?

Had he fled the church, what property did he have on him at the time? What was the loss to the church had he left? And, do you really think killing him would have been justified for his crime? and, what authority would they have had to decide that? I don't think we're on the same page here.


I was reading a Vicksburg, Ms. newspaper from around 1875. An incident occurred where a young girl claimed that a street person paid her a quarter to "touch her". (those were her words). Within one hour a vigilante group apprehended the man and lynched him, solely on the word of the child. It might not have even been the right person. This isn't the same as the church robbery, but, it shows how dangerous vigilante action can be.

[Sawber1001]

70. As mentioned above

There is nothing that indicates they beat him after he was secured. They beat him to subdue him. They did tie him up and waited for the police.

Why in the world would they care what his identity was? He was climbing in the church window with burglary tools at night? It doesn't matter whether his name was "Bob" or "Joe".

And why would they let him go just to have the police have to spend our resources to have to go track him down again and possibly bring in the wrong guy?

And there is a huge difference between taking the word of a little girl versus catching the guy in the act.

[ladjf]

95. I meant that if they hadn't captured him, there would be a need

to identify him for the police in case they were unable to restrain him.

[Cobalt Violet]

64. I know. I thought I was on a conservative forum for a moment.

I hope they will be charged with assault and battery.

[ladjf]

96. And what if the burglars happened to have been armed with

automatic weapons and were crazy enough to use them? A massacre. It was far to dangerous for the church members to take it upon themselves to make the capture. They were fortunate the the burglars
were not expecting the welcoming committee. And what about the local police? Had they been notified of other burglaries?

[LisaL]

86. When someone breaks into your house, maybe you can demand

a jury trial first before deciding if they guy meant you harm or not.

[ladjf]

97. The primary concern in the case of someone breaking into your

house is that you not be killed or wounded for the price of some property in your home.
If you are armed with a gun and know how to use it and believe that the burglar is likely to hurt or kill you, then use the weapon. Otherwise it would be better, in my opinion, to let the burglar steal the stuff and leave rather than trying to take him on with an inadequate weapon. The church people were very fortunate that the burglar was unarmed. If they were convinced enough that the burglars were coming to do a multi-person stakeout,then a policeman should have been with them.

[ldf]

110. you say "otherwise it would be better, in my opinion"

obviously your opinion is not the law.

and, as so frequently, the "law" doesn't do squat, except release the offender for yet more criminal acts.

we are going to go through a transition in this country with regards to "criminals getting away with just about everything". we, as citizens, have some responsibility in letting it get this far.

when the initial act results in immediate justice, the number of initial acts will decrease.

there will be people hurt in this transition period, both criminals, AND those who are defending their own.

we can let an overloaded court system continue to fail, or we can let lawyers continue to get criminals released on technicalities. or, we ourselves, can do something about it.

as i said, some people will be hurt in the process, but in the end, fewer will be in danger.

too bad it is has sunk to this.

[ladjf]

113. The "law" must be doing something , otherwise the jails wouldn't

be so overcrowed and we wouldn't be doing executions by the hundres.

If you want to lose your life protecting some property in your house go for it.

[ldf]

116. thank you. i really needed you permission/approval

i WILL protect my own, rather than sit back and wait for someone else to do it for me.

we all know how often THAT works out.

[ladjf]

117. I guess that I'm not a very precise writer.

My position was that unless one is armed and knows how to shoot, it would be safer to not confront the burglar. Your argument was that you would defend the home. I just meant, if that is your wish then OK, there is not further need for debate. I wasn't trying to give you permission. Obviously, none would be required.

[Vidar]

41. Thank you. This was entirely justified.

[DetroitProle]

79. Agreed.

If someone breaks into my house, I'm going to hit them with a baseball bat, if they're lucky. Someone broke into their place, and they were ready. They didn't hunt him down on the streets and beat him to a pulp.
Of course, I guess plenty will jump at the chance to attack the Jeebus crowd.

[canetoad]

118. These folk had no problem either and they dealt with it.

"I don't see the problem.If no one else is going to deal with the problem you have to do it yourself."


From: http://www.americanlynching.com/infamous-old.html
Suspected of killing a white plantation owner, Luther Holbert - a Negro sharecropper - attempted to escape from his home in Vardaman's Mississippi with his wife before a lynch mob could dispense its own form of "justice." Catching up with the Holberts, the mob bound the couple to convenient trees. While the mob's ringleaders forced the Holberts' to hold out their hands in order that their fingers could be chopped off one by one -- the audience of 600 spectators enjoyed treats like deviled eggs, lemonade, and whiskey in a festive atmosphere. Next, the Holberts' ears were amputated and those severed appendages, along with the disconnected digits, became much-prized souvenirs. Mr. Holbert was beaten severely enough so that his skull was fractured and one eye was left dangling from its socket. When someone in the crowd produced a large corkscrew, that instrument was used to alternately bore into husband and wife, each time gouging out "spirals...of raw, quivering flesh" when withdrawn. Finally, the tortured man and woman were burned alive like Christian martyrs. This final imagery - juxtaposed against a tableau of picnic treats -- demonstrates the sheer dehumanization of lynching for both victim and perpetrator.

[Sammy Pepys]

9. I've got no problem with that.

The guy is burglarizing a church of all places.

[Eric J in MN]

210. It doesn't make it right for a crowd to beat him with baseball bats. (nt)

nt

[TallahasseeGrannie]

11. Guess that's what they mean

when they put "Don't Tread on Me" on their flag.

[AndyA]

13. This is wrong

They should have detained him, with force if necessary, and let the Police handle it. There was no need for bats or a beating. This is disgraceful.

The man was breaking the law, which is wrong, but that does not open the door to beating someone. I'm sure God is thrilled with this behavior from the congregation.

[Sawber1001]

71. From the story

I gathered they used the bats to subdue him so they could let the Police handle it.

Obviously they were scared and had no idea what weapons the guy had. I'm sure they just started beating the guy when he got through the window until they could tie him up.

[Retired AF Dem]

75. That is what they did

they detained him with force than called the police.

[spindrifter]

14. Look at the poll w/ the article!

I know that people have the right to defend their property if they are being burglarized, but holy smokes! I am not sure what religious principles these people have.

[MadHound]

15. Faith based vigalante justice

Sorry, but this is wrong. If you have a problem, call the cops. Don't take the law into your own hands and beat the shit out of somebody with a baseball bat. You are leaving yourself wide open for a lawsuit from the suspect for one thing, and frankly, since he wasn't threatening anybody, these folks could very well be liable for assault.

This is a nation of laws, not mob justice.

[danalytical]

18. unbelievable

So they should have called the police and waited for the guy to rob the church again and run away? It's obvious this guy was a regular, why else would the church goers be waiting there with bats? The place must have been broken into repeatedly around the same time spans, and the police probably just kept filing reports and occasionaly driving by the church.

Another poster said they should have forcefully detained the man. How would YOU in a similar situation detain a large criminal that just broke into your church? Would you give him a bear hug? When you are in danger you use force, these people used force. A bat is a lot safer for yourself to hit someone with than your hands and feet. What if he got a hold of you and bit you whjile you were trying to man handle him. Then you are at risk for Hepatitis or HIV. No thanks, I'll wack him with a bat in the legs and wait for the cops. It's a mean world when you steal from honest men.

[MadHound]

25. Again, you let the police handle the situation.

We have no clue from this article whether or not this congregation did indeed try to enlist the help of the police. If they had all this great information as to when, where, how the burglar would strike, why not turn it over to the cops, let them do their job?

Instead, you're advocating vigilante justice, mob rule. What's next, winging your neighbor with a .22 because he keeps playing his stereo too loud.

And frankly, putting yourself in a position of danger is a foolish thing to do unless absolutely neccessary. What if this man and his accomplice had a couple of guns? The parishoners would have looked mighty foolish, and mighty dead, showing up to a gun fight equipped only with baseball bats.

But then again, judging from the tenor of your post, you probably think that the parishoners should have brought guns along and popped the burglar a couple of times, whether he happened to be armed or not:eyes:

Oh, and what is the penalty for burglary? Five to ten, somewhere around there, certainly not getting the shit beat out of you with baseball bats.

[Sawber1001]

73. And when

the police bring in the wrong guy (which is a likely situation) would justice be served?

Or is it better to catch the guy in the act since you know there is no question that the person was involved. The judge will then determine if he was actually guilty.

[DetroitProle]

84. where the fuck do you live?

Where if you think somebody's gonna break into your place you can enlist the cops for a stake-out? My father works for the police department. THIS-DOES-NOT-HAPPEN.

It's not vigilante justice. No one hunted this dude down. This is all most likely within the framework fo the law, I hate to break it to you.

Next time some punk kids break into your garage, why don't you call the police and cry into the phone while they make off with all your shit?
Some of us just aren't pushovers like that.

[ladjf]

119. I have got to get out of the dumb argument.

If you guys want to risk your lives over some property no one is stopping you. I was merely voicing my opinion about the situation.

Over and out.

[ladjf]

33. The dangers of vigilante justice far outweigh any simple

application of punishment administered by the members. That sets a precedent that has far reaching disastrous repercussions. If you don't understand, I'm sorry. I'm not going to write a dissertation on the subject for your enlightenment.

[mac56]

62. Once they had the guy tied up

there was no longer any risk that would require "self defense".

These boys was just havin' fun at that point.

[QC]

76. How do you know that they beat him after restraining him.

The article linked above does not say that. Have you read a different article?

[Swamp Rat]

16. GROSS!!! They are supposed to be Christians?!?

:puke:

How come they didn't OFFER HIM FOOD or at least try to save his soul?

They had a perfect opportunity to proselytize while helping someone, yet they CHOSE PREMEDITATED VIOLENCE!!!

[Cobalt Violet]

67. Last time I checked assault with a deadly weapon and kidnapping...

Are much more serious crimes than B & E.

I hope they are charged accordingly.

[Maine-ah]

91. Fine, then lets just eliminate our right

to protect our home, family and property. I'm sorry but what you're saying is total BS. Next time someone breaks into my home, I'll be sure to hand him all of my goods, feed him dinner and then thank him fully for his fucking visit.

Don't fucking think so. Anyone breaking into my house is going to get shot at. It's my right to protect my family and property. The same as those people had the right to protect their church.

[LisaL]

126. Ever heard of self-defense?

[NaturalHigh]

133. Charged for protecting the church's property?

You're joking, right? What gives this criminal the right to break in and take what isn't his? If he had broken into someone's house, they would have had every legal right to shoot his worthless ass.

[ladjf]

137. They won't be charged. they had a right to defend their property.

However, a good burglar alarm might have been a safer and better strategy.

[NaturalHigh]

139. Seems to me the strategy they chose worked just fine.

[ladjf]

145. It worked. However, had the burglars been armed, the outcome

could have been tragic. I maintain that their strategy was not worth the risks. They should have equipped the church with a burglar alarm and strengthened the entry points.

[NaturalHigh]

148. Then the guy would have just run off and broke in somewhere

else. Right now, he's cooling his heels in jail and pondering how he screwed up.

[radio4progressives]

107. We are a backwards nation, how in the hell did we manage to convince

ourselves we are a righteous, moral, "christian" nation? To explain that is to explain how it was ever possible to string together "God, Guns and Country" together in one phrase and to use that as a slogan containing a modicum of logic, reason, & intellect.

a dumbass moronic and dangerous nation we will continue to be so long as we allow the southern white man to continue to rule the land and our country.

[TX-RAT]

17. Was he beaten before or after he was tied up?

If i had a bunch of people facing me with bats, i'm pretty sure i wouldn't have to be beaten to cooperate.

Just don't smell right.

[danalytical]

20. That's a good question

I would offer that it's very possible the man was jonesing for whatever drug he was addicted to. That can make a man damn near insane. Insane enough to try to run from the men trying to detain you.

[TechBear_Seattle]

19. Do unto others, before they can do unto you

And if they have already done unto you, no matter how trivial, make sure you beat the tar out of them, just as Jesus commanded.

[Rocknrule]

21. Who would Jesus pistolwhip?

[NaturalHigh]

22. Oh, pity the poor criminal.

If he broke into my house, I would have no problem beating him with a bat. He gets no sympathy from me.

[guinivere]

23. Who Would Jesus Beat/Bat

Stealing from a church is pretty damn low, but they should have held the guy and called the cops.

[CBGLuthier]

24. I've been robbed a few times

And honestly I would gladly kill anyone who tried to rob me again. Maybe the punishment wouldn't fit the crime but that's just too bad.

[LisaL]

130. Exactly. I used to work at a gas station. That place has been robbed

time and time again.
People who think robbery is a harmless crime, better wake up.

[TlalocW]

26. Well...

A lot of baseball players in Florida are named Jesus. Maybe they got confused on which one they were supposed to emulate.

TlalocW

[The Stranger]

27. Looks like Abu Ghraib.

[ContraBass Black]

30. That's hog tied?

I thought hog tying was binding the hands and feet together behind the back.

[The Stranger]

228. They must have forgo to use the hoods.

One of the minister's robes would do I'm sure.

[T Town Jake]

28. Boo-'effin-hoo.

(n/t)

[EstimatedProphet]

31. There is a big point here people are missing

This is a CHURCH, not a HOME.

Legally, a home is considered ultimate sanctuary. You have every right in the world to use force to defend your home, because it is by definition the last place you can retreat. A church, on the other hand, is communal property and is therefore limited as a last refuge. These are people that CHOSE to stay overnight so that they could beat up someone, not people that were at home where no one else is supposed to be.

[NaturalHigh]

40. Are the burglars just allowed to break into a church then?

You seem to think that nothing should be done to stop these worthless shitheads. Obviously, the police hadn't done anything so far. Maybe the parishioners should have just left the doors unlocked and layed out a welcome mat?

I have no problem with a low-life criminal getting an ass-kicking, and I bet he will think twice before he ever breaks into this church again. Any scumbag who would break into a church deserves a good beating.

[EstimatedProphet]

42. Legally they are not the same

Homes are defensible legally because there is always the threat of implied bodily harm. Churches do not have the same connotation.

I never said nothing should be done. If the parishoners waited overnight, caught the guy and tied him up, then called the police, that would go a very long way to keeping people from breaking in again. Instead they tied him up and beat him.

[NaturalHigh]

43. I got the impression that they beat him...

when he tried to get away. Regardless, I don't feel much sympathy for a worthless criminal who decides to break into a church. Maybe the ass-kicking he got and the time he'll spend in prison will motivate him to re-think his career choices.

[Maine-ah]

92. where does it say in that article

that they beat him *after* they tied him up?

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

47. They could have been armed with video and cameras, but it was more fun

to beat a black man.

Those people make me sick.

[NaturalHigh]

48. How did this become a racial thing?

He broke into a church, which makes him a criminal. Why is it that when a criminal gets what's coming to him, the race card gets pulled?

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

50. Even disregarding race, cameras would have worked as well

as a good old Xtian beating. They didn't have to do it. They wanted to beat someone with bats.

IMO, the church has been stealing from the ignorant masses since the first Pope. A burglary here doesn't bother me any more than if he broke into RNC Headquarters. Whatever he would have taken had he succeeded was garnered by fraud in the first place.

[NaturalHigh]

51. You've proved what I said in another post.

It's your disdain for religion that leads you to support the criminal in this case. Criminals good, church bad, eh?

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

77. No... Pretty much the same.

[NaturalHigh]

104. Gee, I wonder where people get the idea...

that Democrats are anti-religion? Probably from people who make jackass statements that churches and criminals are "pretty much the same."

[danalytical]

102. EIther you are poking fun or

you have down syndrome.

"A burglary here doesn't bother me any more than if he broke into RNC Headquarters."

Thanks for that wonderfully stupid statement.

[Name removed]

141. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NaturalHigh]

151. Bashing religion must be a fun hobby for you...

so much that you think it's okay to break in and rob a church. Someone has really hurt you to make you this bitter.

[QC]

52. It's always a good day for racebaiting!

Why spoil the fun?

[MADem]

198. It appears that either it was Hispanic Night for guard duty, or the church

has a large hispanic population. From another article, same event: http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/palmbeach/sfl-cpchurch25mar25,0,807502.story?coll=sfla-news-palm

...So while Thomas, 47, climbed up on the roof about 1 a.m. and eyed a second story window, Juan Delfin was wide awake, listening and looking for any signs of prowlers.... "The guys called us from downstairs from a cell phone and told us that they saw two men trying to break in."

Delfin, 26, woke the other two men on his floor, Esteban Mendoza and Aristeo Paxtor. They got baseball bats and broomsticks and waited. "That was the plan," said Delfin, who could hear Thomas talk to another man and called police....Thomas ducked back in the room and held the door shut. Delfin, Mendoza, Paxtor and the three parishioners from the first floor tried forcing the door open but it wouldn't budge.

...But Mendoza, who stuck around on the second floor got into the room, saw Thomas' feet hanging on the windowsill. He gave Thomas' ankles a few whacks with a bat and called his buddies for help.
Some of the men hit Thomas with a bat until Mendoza and another man tied his hands with some white rope and waited for police....

[Sawber1001]

74. Sure

cameras work great at night when a person is running away.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

144. Never pass up a chance to dish out a good beating at church, eh?

[NaturalHigh]

146. Would you be less offended if this guy had been...

breaking into a private home and gotten his ass kicked, or would you still be offended that he wasn't allowed to walk off with someone else's property? You've made it clear that you don't like churches, but do you always feel the need to defend the criminal who is trying to victimize someone else?

[sproutster]

234. I certainly would. A man I knew was shot by a homeowner - it was tragic

He crawled into the wrong house, accounts later showed his girlfreind lived next door.

It was tragic, it was sad, but in the end - the man who shot him had a family he was protecting. He had no idea this was a confused harmless guy.

[NaturalHigh]

238. I don't understand your post.

Are you saying that you would be less offended if this were a private home we were discussing, or are you saying you would still be offended that the criminal wasn't allowed to make off with someone else's property? Either way, I still don't understand being more sympathetic to the criminal than the church.

[Cobalt Violet]

68. I thought Christians turned the other cheek. Not get out the bats.

:shrug:

[LisaL]

124. Hah? What about an eye for an eye?

[GreenArrow]

136. "What about an eye for an eye?"

It ends up making everyone blind.

[fishwax]

183. That's Old Testament thinking

And when jesus said to turn the other cheek, he was directly and explicitly countering "eye for an eye." So for christians, the turning of the cheek should theoretically trump the taking of the eye.

[Cobalt Violet]

193. That's not one of the things Jesus taught.

That's old testament.

[VOX]

35. "Love your enemies, do good and lend, hoping for nothing in return..."

"and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is kind to the unthankful and evil."
"Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful."
"Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven."
"Give, and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be put into your bosom. For with the same measure that you mete, it will be meted back to you."
- - - - -
Just a little something that J.C. himself put out there a couple thousand years ago, give or take a month.

It's a sentiment apparently lost on the members of the Church of Nazarene at 5312 Broadway in Palm Beach, Florida.

[converted_democrat]

78. Thank you for posting that.. People seem to forget how a Christian is

supposed to act in the first place.. This mob beating is nothing that Jesus would've approved of.. It was wrong all the way around..

[fishwax]

105. you must really hate religion/christianity

to actually expect people to follow the words of their messiah. :sarcasm:

[Cobalt Violet]

195. I thought Jesus said "lay in waiting with baseball bats...

if you think someone might break in to church".

:sarcsm:

[fishwax]

243. that must be the gospel according to ty cobb

if i remember right, most religions consider it apocryphal :rofl:

[ladjf]

38. I have read the article about the burglary incident.

1. Not only was their act of capturing and assaulting the man illegal. ( a borderline lynching. ,
2. They were MOST fortunate that the burglars weren't armed with automatic weapons, which they easily could have been. (and in the future, most likely will be.) In that case, the two burglars, if serious or crazy enough, could have easily killed all of the ambushers. It could have been a blood bath. Then the church members wouldn't have felt so "cool" about their escapade.

This unnecessary amateur operation will undoubtedly encourage others to do the same. And it will alert burglars that they had better be packing some artillery.

I was disappointed to see that only 13% of the people polled thought that the matter should have been handled by the law enforcement authorities.

[GOPNotForMe]

44. Good. He was breaking in and going to steal stuff.

I am glad they stopped him.

[Minnesota Libra]

45. Darn - all he wanted was to steal something that wasn't his, what's.......

......wrong with that???? :sarcasm:

[NaturalHigh]

49. I think it's a general disdain for religion...

that has some people fired up here. I don't understand why so many people here are anti-religion and pro-criminal.

[Minnesota Libra]

53. I think the anti-religion you see is due to neocons insisting......

.....on cramming their brand of religion down everyone's throats. It isn't anti-religion in general, it's the neocons version of it that has everyone saying HELL NO!!

There are in fact some very devote Christian Democrats who realize that Jesus was a liberals liberal, which is why the neocons (Pharisees) of his day insisted on killing him.

[NaturalHigh]

58. While I agree with part of what you say...

I've seen plenty of posts about hating "organized" religion or referring to religion as "the opiate of the masses," in a hats-off salute to Marx. One person in another post on this thread said that the church has been stealing from people since the first pope. These people are free to express their opinions, of course, just as I am free to say that I think they're full of it and looking for attention. Rough childhood, I would imagine.

[Minnesota Libra]

69. Some lumping together and also some assumptions here that..........

.....could use some straightening out but only time and further learning will take care of that.


In the meantime, I have a question based on one statement you made.
"......One person in another post on this thread said that the church has been stealing from people since the first pope."

What part of that statement is a lie?? Read some history about the Catholic Church and then you might have a different view.

[NaturalHigh]

108. I have a degree in History, so I've read all about...

the Catholic Church. My wife is also Catholic. I know of many unsavory things that church leaders have done that are pretty reprehensible, but I won't make a blanket statement condemning the church. The Catholic Church has done a lot of good with money that it has collected, and I don't consider taking donations from parishioners to be "stealing." That doesn't mean that a lot of the money isn't used in ways with which I don't approve, but I still won't call it stealing.

[misternormal]

55. This is not a question of religion, nor is it a question...

... about protecting a criminal...

This is a question of due process of law...

We here in DU condemn the bush administration for thinking that they are above the law, yet some virtually pat the parishioners of this church on the back for a job well done...

This man could just as easily been walking by, and sat on the steps for a rest... We have no way of knowing the mindset of those that beat and hogtied this man. We have no way of knowing how far they would go... if they would think that a tired man on the step was a potential burglar, casing the joint, and beat him and drug him in...

Actions such as these, unless one's life is in danger... which clearly it was not in this case... should be handled by the proper authorities...

Even in a citizen's arrest, if the arrestor uses too much force, they can be charged with assault, just as can an officer of the law.

The way of the vigilante is not the way to handle things.

[QC]

57. "walking by, and sat on the steps for a rest"

Apparently you didn't read the link. I'll paste the relevant part here to save you the trouble of clicking on the link:

Parishioners fed up with a string of burglaries at their West Palm Beach church took matters into their own hands by capturing and hog-tying a man who climbed in through a window early this morning.

[misternormal]

59. I read the link, thank you...

... I was merely stating that the mindset of the parishioners could, one day, send them into such a spiral of paranoia, that someone stopping to rest on their steps could meet their wrath.

I know the man broke in, and I know they were tired of the breakins... I was stating something in the abstract.

[QC]

103. Ah yes, the slippery slope argument.

Kinda like the one about how same-sex marriage inevitably leads to adults to marrying children and pets.

[danalytical]

112. and a panda bear might eat your pop tart

before you come down for breakfast.

What in the world are you talking about? Paranoia? These people thought they would be burglarised "again" which tells us that it must have happened at least one other time, and even leads us to believe it probably happened multiple times.

This isn't about paranoia, race, religion, republicans, or any other inserted excuse. Many of you are jumping overboard into the ocean of irrationality. Let me break it down into bullet points so we can all see more clearly.

. church burglarized at least once, probably multiple times
. police to date are unable to apprehend suspect or prevent further breakins
. parishoners decide to stake out their church and wait
. criminal climbs through the window
. parishoners forcefully subdue criminal and tie his hands
. they call the police and the break ins stop

Hooray for parishoners.

[LisaL]

125. I just saw on a local news-local church got burglarized.

Maybe more people should start defending what is theirs, considering waiting for police to do something makes for a very long wait.

[QC]

56. If someone were repeatedly breaking into a Democratic headquarters

office somewhere, and the police were useless, so a group of Democrats stayed around one night and kicked the crap out of the thief, people here would be high-fiving and fucking-a'ing like there was no tomorrow.

There's every bit as much cheap, simpleminded kneejerkery here as one finds at that other site that shall remain nameless. This thread is a prime example, but only one of many.

[misternormal]

60. Watergate maybe????

[QC]

65. Yes, if Nixon's henchmen had gotten a good beating

at the hands of some righteously angry Democrats, we would still be telling the story.

[Yupster]

187. Yes a lot of life's opinions

seem to revolve around the question of whose ox got gored.

It's hysterically funny when your neighbors ox gets goreed, but outrageous when it happens to yours.

[QC]

191. Yeah, funny how that works, isn't it? n/t

[BlackVelvet04]

72. I'm a Christian, and as a Christian I find the behavior of the church

members reprehensible. They could have detained the man and called the police. It isn't an either or situation where you either beat the man or let him steal.

[NaturalHigh]

106. What makes you think they didn't try to detain him?

Maybe the criminal (let's all remember that's what he is) tried to get away. Maybe he was high and took a swing at one of the parishioners? The impression I got from the story was that he wasn't exactly cooperative as he was being detained. Regardless, I can't work up a lot of sympathy for a scumbag who broke into a church and got the ass-kicking that he so richly deserved.

[converted_democrat]

80. That isn't it at all.. That's not how a Christian behaves.. The thief was

a thief, but these people were supposed to be Christian, and true Christian people don't act like that..

[GreenArrow]

134. i think it's disdain for people who call themselves

Christians and then act in ways completely antithetical to the teachings of the central figure of their religion.

[THUNDER HANDS]

61. the tying up part isn't the bad part

If they just caught him in the act and detained him that would be one thing. But they beat him with baseball bats. That, IMO, is unnecessary and cruel. All he wanted was money. As far as I could tell he wasn't a violent criminal and therefore should not have had violence done to him.

I'm no church-going Christian, but that seems fair to me.

[LisaL]

87. All he wanted is money? Give your money to whoever you please,

but many people are rather fond of their money.
The guy could have been armed. He also had an accomplice that run off.
They could have had guns instead of baseball bats, shot him and still claim self-defense because he was trespassing.

[malaise]

54. Onward christian soldiers n/t

[mac56]

63. Marching as to war, With the bat of Jesus going on before!

:rofl:

[malaise]

181. I nearly choked with laughter

reading this response:rofl: :rofl:

[theHandpuppet]

66. Who would Jesus hog tie?

"You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away"...

... "Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."

[Judi Lynn]

89. Couldn't be clearer. If these people don't want to respect the teachings

of the one they claim to follow, they should find something else to do with their Sundays.

[DetroitProle]

88. this is a curious board.

If this were a shopowner who did this, I believe there would be an entirely different tone here.
But because it was a church, here come the pot-shots. So they were defending what was theirs. Aren't they allowed to do that, just like the rest of us?

I generally dislike religion. However, a massive amount of people around here sound like disgruntled high school kids who say they're atheists just to piss off their parents. They're giving atheism a bad name.

[salin]

90. I find it an interesting thread

in the sense that there are several subthemes ... that seem to be working on folks gut level.

Some in the "church folks as hypocrits" who are suspicious of religion theme. Some in the "church folks as hypocrits" from the religious folks who find the actions in opposition to their beliefs. Some in the concern for vigilantism (the okay to detain - but beat? lines). On the other side the "defend from those perceived to be bashing religion" theme, and the property rights theme.

Me, I would need to know more; count me in the concern for vigilantism crowd. If the guy was caught - but was not threatening - then detain and wait for the police... however if the guy was caught, and physically dangerous (striking out at folks and needing to be subdued in order to be detained) then I would consider actions as self-defense rather than vigilantism. But I don't know that my theme is nearly as interesting as the back and forth I see elsewhere on the thread.

[Retired AF Dem]

93. You are correct

the main objection here is because "religious" folk did this. If you had some redneck asshole constantly breaking into a gay bar and stealing stuff and he was beat up, hog tied and the police was called that would be ok. Double standards run rampart here.

[fishwax]

98. I think respect for religion would encourage the same conclusion

If you expect a group of people deliberately gathered in a church to act the same way as a random seller of sporting goods, then it doesn't sound like religion is worth much.

Sure, there are some people on this thread who are hostile to religion generally, and that may well be coloring their view of this. But there are plenty of earnest believers on this board who would react in much the same way, I think.

btw, welcome to DU :hi::toast:

[ladjf]

100. Had the burglars been armed with AK47's as well they could

have been, a massacre could well have been the terrible outcome. For what? A few hundred dollars worth of church property. I suggest that the church people planned and executed what amounted to a token lynching if the did beat up the burglar with the ball bats. I'm concerned with the thinking that is happening in Florida. They are getting meaner by the day. It is now legal to fatally shot someone who you think might harm you. There will eventually be some horrible repercussions from this lame brained and mean spirited law. It's already enough to stop many law abiding people from moving to Florida. But, will attract right-wing nuts.

[radio4progressives]

111. I thought any Christian Church was the "House of God",

simply a place of worship, and I thought Jesus scorned materalism? I mean, what would Jesus have done? The pro-vigilante responses on this board is a perfect illustration of the hypocrisy of Christian "values".

:puke:

[Bluebear]

122. They beat him with fucking bats.

This is more than "defending what was theirs" and no, if a shopowner did this with a posse he assembled it would not be right either. All they had the right to do was detain him.

[NaturalHigh]

128. How were they supposed to detain him?

"Sir, would you mind waiting right here while the police come to arrest your sorry ass? Thanks kindly."

[Yupster]

188. And I hope you don't have

an AK-47.

Better to hit him with a bat in the dark. Then the conversation will go better.

[LisaL]

132. When someone tries to rob you, you can detain him with

milk and cookies.
The robber is lucky they didn't shoot him.

[DetroitProle]

155. and how would you "detain" someone?

Ask them nicely? Arm wrestle them? Rock/paper/scissors for it?
Man, some people just have no REAL LIFE experience. Welcome to reality.

No where does it say they beat him, brutalized him, tortured him, or imposed their own form of punishment upon him. As far as I can gather they subdued him with bats and tied him up. The police were then called who took him into custody.

If I was in the same situation, I would have done the exact same thing. If I had the element of surprise, I would use the opportunity to gain the upper-hand over a burgalar and detain him until police came. I wouldn't have a showdown with an armed robber, but if I had the element of surprise over someone endangering my property and what could be my life if I did nothing, I would take it.

Good luck with whatever you do if someone breaks into your cozy house in the suburbs. You could cower under the bed and whisper sweet nothings to the police on the phone while the dude makes off with all your shit, provided he doesnt hear you and bust in and beat the shit out of you. I wouldn't take such a course of action, if possible.
Then again, you could always "detain" him with your magical powers.

[Bluebear]

204. The HEADLINE said they beat him

Beyond that, nothing to say to your rude post.

[LisaL]

123. Or if a private citizen did that to a burglar that broke into his home.

Poor criminal got beaten up. Well, too bad, but being a burglar is a dangerous job.

[ladjf]

142. Dumb occupation.

[Raine]

170. Yeah really

the double standard here is troublesome. Just cause you don't like the religious side to basically side with the thief :shrug: what are we becoming to be so kneejerk. :-(

[fishwax]

184. I don't see where anyone has sided with the thief

Has anybody said the thief was in the right? Personally, I think both were in the wrong. According to some of the posters on this board, that makes me anti-religious :eyes:

[Raine]

205. Yes you're right

I misspoke no one was siding with the thief. That was a silly statement on my part, don't know why I said it. :spank:

[fishwax]

206. it happens

it's easy to forget in such a lively discussion that it might not all be either/or, or that there might be more than two sides to every story :)

:hi:

[Solly Mack]

99. "The power of Christ compels you"

(quote from the Exorcist - I couldn't resist)

Detain - I can see.
But beat?

Was he carrying a weapon?

[GreenArrow]

109. as Christians, I believe the churchmembers

should get out their Bibles, and focusing solely on the words of Christ, determine exactly where it is that Jesus would justify this sort of thing. They will will find nothing that Jesus said or did will justify this sort of thing. NOTHING.

[danalytical]

114. I think they should have gotten out their bibles

and proceeded to beat the snot out of the burglar until he saw the terrible image of christ in his nightmares for the rest of his life.

Oh no what if the man was simply trying to climb through the window to leave a donation? Maybe he just really needed some cheerios from the food pantry for the poor?

Who are those evil christian vigilantes to decide whether the man was trying to steal from the church or simply climbing through the window to fix the squeeky door? Shame on them!


My favorite so far has to be "this was just a lynching." Simply unbelievable.

[NaturalHigh]

115. Calling this a "lynching"...

is an insult to the victims of real lynchings. I wonder how someone who had the shit beaten out of him just for being in the wrong part of town after dark would feel about being compared to a lowlife asshole who decided to rob a church?

[GreenArrow]

127. the point is

that what these folks did is not supported by any of Jesus Christ's teachings.

[LisaL]

131. Not everyone can be as good as Jesus was.

:eyes:

[ladjf]

140. True, but I don't get the feeling that many are trying.

[LisaL]

149. Jesus did not end up well, did he?

[ladjf]

162. Since he was reputed to be immortal, it wouldn't have mattered.

Further, like Socrates, he could have concluded that his martyrdom would ultimately benefit his cause, which it did.

[LisaL]

179. Considering nobody else but Jesus is immortal, I have no clue

how anyone else can be like Jesus.

[ladjf]

197. Personally, I'm not a Christian. But, if I were, I would consider

Jesus's behavior to be the goal and would try to come as close as possible.

Anyway, we've about beaten up on this issue long enough.

[Yupster]

189. I bet they will pray

for the man who got his ass kicked, and also ask forgiveness for kicking his ass. There will probably many a discussion on this topic throughout the church's Sunday school classes.

[GreenArrow]

147. they can't?

And if one doesn't even bother to try, then what is the point of the religion? To get together once a week all dressed up in dandy clothes and listen to a bunch of fancy talk that no one pays any attention to? To gossip? To make business connections?

Maybe it makes sense; "if I'm saved, I can do whatever the fuck I want, even if my very own holy book and deity speak against it".

[LisaL]

150. What is the point of religion? If you are asking me, you are

asking a wrong person. I am an atheist.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

152. LOL. I love it! Now you advocate using the bible as a weapon!

[danalytical]

157. Yup I do

I think they should glue their bible pages together, and carve them into daggers using a band saw, then sharpen them with holy sand paper from the tomb of christ, and stabbeth the criminal until he sees the light of jesus in his life. Or at the very least use th epages to give the man paper cuts, and then pour lemon holy water on the wounds.

[Yupster]

190. Does lemon juice

unholize the holy water?

Not Catholic here.

[danalytical]

199. Lemon is a neocon torture fruit

only acceptable to use if the criminal is browninsh in appearance, and non christian. It's been called the chinese water torture of Washington. I'm surprised it's not in the "librul media. You know how those pinkos like to reveal our state secrets.

[earth mom]

153. My how "Christian"-NOT!

:puke:

[sakabatou]

154. Let ye who has not sinned cast the first stone...

:puke:

[FlaGranny]

156. Oh, hell, I suggest that

everyone unlock their doors to their homes, offices, and churches, and put help yourself signs outside. It's what Jesus would have done, after all.

[Blue Diadem]

165. Good one!

:yourock:

[noiretextatique]

163. perhaps they should have just called the police

:shrug:

[sproutster]

172. What and show mercy? The crowd wants blood, and blood they shall have

[LisaL]

178. And what would the police do? The burglar would have run off,

and police would never catch him.

[Yupster]

192. In my experience, the police

are more like insurance adjusters than law enforcers.

They take down the information on official paper so the insurance company will have it, and you never hear from them again.

That's from my personal experience.

My parked car got trashed by a car. Car limped off with bumper dragging in the street.

Neighbor got the make and license number. We called the cops. Nothing.

The car dealer that sold the guy the car (small town - personal friend) accidently left the guy's name and address on his desk which I brought to the police. Called them a week later. Nothing.

Called a week later, and they told me not to call any more that they'd notify me when they had something.

Obviously they never called.

No time to waste on minor property crimes when they can get $ 75 a shot for a no seatbelt ticket.

[LisaL]

200. In my experience as well.

They don't care much for thefts or robberies. I guess someone has to end up dead for the police to investigate something.

[noiretextatique]

194. ms. cleo...is that you again?

that crystal ball of yours is working overtime today.

[Raine]

169. GOOD

I got no sympathy for thieves. :thumbsup:

[sproutster]

171. I cannot believe what I am reading on here

There appears to be a small minority of which I proudly put my lot in, that believe detaining him for the police should have been enough.

They knew he was coming, they were lying in wait.

It's one thing if you are defending yourself, but to sit there with a plan and bats ready?

If they knew he was coming they could have called the police in advance.

What the hell - in this mean, dog-eat-dog country of ours, he should by rights be punished with the death penalty huh?

Oh that is too much! Let's just chop his f'ing hand off.

Give me a break.

He was a thief -- There will be more and more. People have to live. But I guess you all know in advance this guy was pure evil.

We know he didn't lose his job recently, we know he didn't have precriptions to buy, we know he didn't have kids to feed.

Church as salvation? F that - Church as a good ol' ass kicken! Teach that boy some manners. Guess they showed him.

God do I even belong here?

[Judi Lynn]

173. It's probably not the "A" crowd, we can hope!

It's a slap in the face to the being these people claim to worship. They have absolutely no respect for his teachings, and are unable to understand them.

[NaturalHigh]

216. Because we know that the "A Crowd"...

is pissed off that a church would dare to protect its property from being stolen by a burglar. We know that the "A Crowd" understands that the poor, unfortunate criminal really, really needed someone else's property and that nobody had the right to stop him from taking it. Maybe the "A Crowd" can invite him over to their neighborhoods once he serves his time (if he serves any time at all).

[Blue Diadem]

174. Oh what a dream world..in the real world the cops don't

sit waiting for a burglar. The people called the police after apprehending him..and who knows how many nights they stayed in wait, waiting for the CRIMINAL to come back. These people wacked him with a bat..he was treated and released to jail where he belongs. The reporter chose the words beat. We don't know if they hit him once or ten times. You don't know anymore than I do that if he was feeding his children or if he was feeding his drug habit. I'm betting on the latter.

Good gosh the church already had bars on the windows. It's pretty bad that people will go into a house of worship to steal and destroy. Who knows how many people this church was helping that didn't get what they needed..because some selfish thief kept taking it for himself. Hmm..maybe he was so down on his luck he could have gone to them and said..Pastor..I need a job, Paster I need to feed my family.

I'm beginning to understand now why the other side says we're soft on crime and we feel sorry for the criminal.

Oh..I bet his friend that got away was trying to feed his family too.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

175. Here's A Better Article On It. Broken Ribs, Broken Fingers, Lacerations

on the legs. I think they probably overdid it, but I can't say they weren't well within their rights to defend their property. Here's the link:

http://www.nbc6.net/news/8234140/detail.html#

[LisaL]

176. They beat him up before they tied him up.

Clear case of self-defense, IMO.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

186. Well, Yes And No.

At first, yes. After he was trying to escape and wasn't threatening with a weapon, but was just trying to get out the window, it was no longer self defense it was being vigilantes. I'm somewhat torn on whether the subsequent swings were appropriate or not, but I'm leaning towards 'he shouldn't have been in there and that's the risk you take when you try and burglarize so that's his problem'

[Blue Diadem]

185. It appears to be two pretty hefty wacks..1-chest and 1- back

that would account for the broken ribs, fingers broken most likely when he tried to block the bat. Lacerations are probably from broken glass from windows he broke.

I can't say they over did it. I kinda figured it was a wack or two..just enough to stop him. There was no mention of any head injuries or broken limbs so it does appear it was just the two guys who hit him..even though 6 had bats.

[sproutster]

202. Dude, last time I noticed -- punishment for burglery wasn't being beaten

I guess justice doesn't mean shit unless it's for your cause.

These guys can be above the law coz of god and you've been burgled before.

Welcome to Bush America

You are buying right in.

[Blue Diadem]

203. I get it, stopping him is considered punishment. LOL

Hitting him two times is punishment. Ohhhh..poor thief got his ribs broke..poor thing. Hell you're right..the church people were wrong..they should have invited him in and helped him load up..took him to their homes and let him have that stuff too. Replaced it all and invited him back.

Look, they didn't kill the guy, they didn't maim the guy..they hit him TWICE to apprehend him. Hmmm..they wouldn't have hit him at all if he hadn't broken in..but yeah..that's their fault too because they have stuff that some criminal wants.

If the cops/prosecutors thought they went overboard, I'm betting they'd be charged with assault.

Sorry dude..I just don't feel sorry for creeps.

By the way..just how do you think cops would have stopped him? Taser? Gun?

[sproutster]

212. I don't stand corrected... what's a couple broken bones?

Especially when he was a homicidal... wait, oh yea, he didn't hurt anyone.

He was armed! Oh wait, he wasn't.

There were children there! Oh wait, no there wasn't.

In bushamerica we deserve blood for our material things.

In church too - we just misunderstood the jesus guy.

[Blue Diadem]

223. The blood was created from his own breaking of the windows

I suspect you've never met a criminal face to face..nor have you had your home broken into, your property stolen or been assaulted by a thief. I've come face to face with a few and been assaulted and threatened and it's not pleasant.

I bet you'd wait and ask if they had a weapon when you're looking at them eye to eye.

What makes you think stealing isn't hurting someone and what makes you think he wouldn't have assaulted someone if he had the chance?

[sproutster]

231. Too bad his ribs didn't puncture his lungs and he died for his sins eh?

Murder is good in the name of God and America!!

[Blue Diadem]

245. You're the only one saying that..no one here has said they wished death

on the criminal.

[sproutster]

235. You have no idea what I have been through

I assure you, I know that there is evil in the world - but pardon me for not buying into the BS that this was justified.

He harmed NO ONE.
He was LEAVING.
He was pulled from the window and beat with bats until he was tied up.

I have no idea if he was going to assult anyone - NOR DO YOU.

We only have his actions, which to date - was breaking and entering, and trying to leave.

Propogate the hate.

I prefer peace.

[LisaL]

201. Did you even read the article? They didn't know "he was coming".

He didn't call them in advance to announce he was coming.
People have to live by stealing other people's property?
Well, sorry, that is kind of frowned upon in every society.

[gollygee]

207. If they didn't have some idea he would come

they wouldn't have been waiting for him with bats

[opihimoimoi]

236. But the Burg was doing exactly what the BushCo Guys are doing...

stealing our money and future no less.

It is they who should be punished for their crimes

[NaturalHigh]

239. How does this have any relation to this thread?

Does your post let this criminal off the hook for breaking into a church? I can't see that this thread has anything to do with politics, just a lowlife who broke into a church and tried to rob it.

[opihimoimoi]

244. Its a simple analogy is all....

Nothing to do with politics...Both commits a crime is all....My post does not in anyway let off the Burg.

[NaturalHigh]

215. This church had been burglarized repeatedly.

Whether or not it was the same burglar, I don't know. I DO KNOW that this particular burglar won't be breaking into anyone else's house tonight, as his worthless ass is sitting in jail.

Was he trying to feed his family or just trying to get money for drugs? I don't know, but if it was the former, he should have ASKED the church for help rather than breaking in through a window to steal property. I can't work up any sympathy for some asshole who broke into a church to steal.

[Judi Lynn]

217. You can use this address and this phone number, if interested,

to congratulate the church members, or to send them a message pointing to the words of Christ.

West Palm Beach Belen Church of the Nazarene
Rev. Galo E. Poveda
Church Address:
5312 Broadway
West Palm Beach, FL 33407
UNITED STATES

Mailing Address:
5836 Westfall Road
Lantana, FL 33463
UNITED STATES

Contact Information:
Phone:[phone]

My father was a minister, and I spent my entire childhood in church. I even attended a church school he opened.

I've heard the teachings of Christ since I was only a couple of months old.

This matter concerns a CHURCH, not someone's private residence. No one's life was in danger.

If some DU'ers don't understand the message Christ brought, that's fine. Don't take your primitive, self-centered, self-serving behavior to church and lie in wait to beat someone up who has broken in. Don't prove to the world that you spit on the meaning of Christ's whole life on earth.

Growing up INWARDLY is hard. Not everyone is willing to do it. The message Christ brought demands it.

[NaturalHigh]

226. I'm glad we have you...

to point out our flaws and tell us how to behave. Thank you for being here for those of us who aren't quite progressive enough to favor the criminal over the church.

Oops, almost forgot my :sarcasm:

[sproutster]

232. I'm glad we have you...

To show us how to beat the sh*t out of the riff raff and justify it to ourselves. We are apperantly dumb enough to think you beat people only when you are in danger. Now we know we can plan it given the right justification.

It is dangerous times.

[NaturalHigh]

237. These people were confronted by a criminal.

What makes you think he wasn't violent? What makes you think they weren't in danger? I said nothing about beating "riff raff," but I simply can't work up any sympathy for someone who steals from others, be it a church or a private citizen, and gets his ass kicked. Burglary can be a dangerous job sometimes.

[NaturalHigh]

240. For all of you who...

seem to think that the parishioners tied this criminal up and then beat him with baseball bats for their own amusement, please check out this paragraph.

WPTV, NBC 6's sister station in West Palm Beach, reported that the church members used baseball bats to subdue a robber, and then tied him up while waiting for police to arrive.

Link

That's a long way from beating and torturing someone. These people detained the criminal breaking into their church and called the police. This is hardly "vigilante justice."

[sproutster]

241. You are living Bushamerica reality.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/palmbeach/sfl-cpchurch25mar25,0,807502.story?coll=sfla-news-palm

But Mendoza, who stuck around on the second floor got into the room, saw Thomas' feet hanging on the windowsill. He gave Thomas' ankles a few whacks with a bat and called his buddies for help.

Some of the men hit Thomas with a bat until Mendoza and another man tied his hands with some white rope and waited for police.

Police charged Thomas with burglary and possession of burglary tools.

-- What if? What if?

What if my neighbor has a gun and might shoot it through the wall accidently? I fear it might happen, and I suspect he has a gun - plus he plays his music too loud after 10pm.

Should I wait in the stairwell and beat him with a bat - he's nothing but a f'in criminal.

Everyone is above the law if they follow YOUR PERSONAL VIEWS. This is nothing better then what is going on in the US today. Practice what you preach and we will soon all be singing the same song. Or is that what you are singing? :)

[NaturalHigh]

242. This is not a hypothetical crime we are talking about.

This criminal was caught in the course of an actual crime. He was breaking into a church with burglary tools. That is a far cry from you worrying that your neighbor might do something criminal. That is not my personal view; it is a fact that nobody has disputed.