Theodore Roosevelt and immigration quote on Lou Dobbs

[SeattleGirl]

What do you think of what Theodore Roosevelt said about immigration, that Lou Dobbs just quoted? Here is a link to the quote:

http://brokenborders.blogspot.com/2006/01/theodore-roosevelt-on-immigrants.html

I have mixed feelings. I do agree that if a person becomes an American citizen, then America should be their country of allegiance. However, the part about only speaking English bothered me. English is our primary language, but it almost seemed as if Roosevelt was saying that an immigrant should give up their native language. Also, I think that people who come from other countries, even though they become citizens, should be able to celebrate and honor their native culture, along with learning and celebrating American culture.

I'm curious as to what you folks think.

Edited to change thread title.

[melissinha]

1. so many communities are allowed to celebrate

the heritage of long gone ancestors, why shouldn't they?

If my hometown, a Norwegian American town can hold Nordic Fest and wave around antiquated Norwegian flags, throw around a few Norwegian words.... so can new immigrants.

[SeattleGirl]

2. I agree.

To me, one of the great things about this country IS the diversity of it's people. Going to festivals where different cultures celebrate their heritage is fun, and educational too.

[rodeodance]

4. I do not think that passage says immigrants can not celebrate their

own culture. Assimulation does not mean toss out the babe with the bathwater. But it does say that certain issues, such as the English language are necessary--

[SeattleGirl]

18. Well, the Roosevelt quote says:

"We have room but for one language here, and that is the English language." Isn't one's native tongue part of ones culture? That statement just seemed so narrow-minded. If you move here from another country where English is not the primary language, I think you should learn English, just as if I moved to Mexico, I'd better learn Spanish.

[mondo joe]

24. I really don't know that Roosevelt meant people would never

speak their own language - he may have simply meant that the national language standard would be English.

[proud2BlibKansan]

40. If you are poor and uneducated and most likely illiterate

in your native language, it is going to be pretty hard to learn English.

[melissinha]

39. OK you have a point, however

I have found many people to be increasingly intolerant of Mexican immigrants, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist immigrants and their rights to be here at all, which manifests itself in forcing Spanish speaking immigrants to learn English. I just find a lot of hypocrisy in people who have also descended from immigrants who don't wish to extend any rights to the new immigrants. As a person who is fluent in Spanish who gets into many arguments over immigration and the right to bilingual education I get really testy.... Usually the people I argue with do not know any language BUT English and don't know what foreign language acquisition is like..... :grr:

[BlackHeart]

3. Immigrants should never give up their heritage

but they should learn the language and customs of the land they move to.

One of the biggest events of my town is a St Patricks Day parade, even though most of the town is of Polish heritage. Go figure.

[SeattleGirl]

9. You are right on, both about not giving up heritage, and about

learning the language and customs of the land they move too. I would expect myself to do the same, should I move to another country, especially one where the primary language was not English.

I have a lot of clients who are immigrants, and while many of them have learned English, many of them have not. I don't mind using an interpreter, but I find myself wondering sometimes, why, if some of these folks have been in this country for years, they have not learned the language, either at all, or not well enough to communicate even on a basic level without the help of an interpreter. Every college and technical school in the area as low or no-cost ESL classes that people can utilize.

[proud2BlibKansan]

41. See my post #40

It really isn't that easy for many to learn a second language. Kind of like forcing me to learn quantum physics. LOL

[pinto]

5. I think the English issue is a straw man argument.

Immigrants pick up English as a matter of course over time, and as a matter of survival in the larger culture. Bilingual education's not about teaching children solely in their birth tongue, but teaching them in their birth tongue - especially when monolingual (duh) - *while* teaching them English as a second language.

Sure, the parents/grandparents may remain monolingual (and at times depend on their children for translation duties) but they will be raising a generation of bilingual citizens. Assimilation (and acceptance) isn't something you legislate, *today*, imo. It's something you support, as a society, over time.

[lovuian]

6. English should be our language... I'm ticked that jobs here in

Texas go Bilingual a must... thats descriminatory...

Its all over down here and if it keeps up we will be speaking Spanish as our native language!!!

[pinto]

11. I don't think that will happen, seriously.

"Opportunity" is primarily spoken in English. Not only in Texas, but across the United States and around the world.

And bilingual employees in local companies, especially in service related businesses, is just plain good business.

[ChiciB1]

7. I Was Just Going To Post The Same Thing!!

I haven't commented on this issue myself yet, but I as you have VERY mixed feelings. If they become citizens well and good and I do feel they should at least make an attempt to speak English!

Living down here in Florida I know of MANY, MANY, MANY companies who use what are called "migrant" workers. Most of them are illegals, but I also know that they have easy access to SS#'s and that there isn't very much pressure to check for legality! I know this FIRST HAND!

I'm not against any human being seeking to better their lives, but I also don't like the fact that we are losing our "middle class" because of this policy that looks the other way! And if anyone feels the Corporations aren't looking the other way, then they must be dumb & blind! It IS very very easy to hire an illegal!!

Furthermore, I really don't know WHAT good solution we can formulate! I know The Idiot is in bed with Fox someway, Fox is much too outspoken and there isn't a peep from the WH! This is where I have a BIG problem! They sealed something in blood a long time ago, I'm sure. But as with everything else, WE THE PEOPLE don't know what it is. I don't TRUST the WH and know they will stop at nothing to sell us down the river!

This is a HUGE problem here in America, I really think so, but I also feel a bit weak in the knees when it comes to turning people back to nothing but dirty water, sewage and a life of POVERTY!!

I don't think I could vote on an issue if it were put to a vote. I don't remember seeing this topic talked about too much here at DU, but then perhaps I might just have overlooked it at the time.

[SeattleGirl]

13. Over the years, I have had clients who, when they get into the

worker's compensation system, are discovered to be illegal immigrants. They then get reported (by Labor & Industries) to the INS, and some have been deported. But I don't think the companies who have hired them get in trouble, which they should. Why should the immigrant be the only one to get in trouble?

I feel bad for the ones who are deported. Obviously, they came here for a reason. Many of them have escaped horrible conditions in their homelands, such as Cambodia. Once client I had, from Mexico, had seen his family slaughtered before his eyes when he was a little boy. Do I blame him for wanting to leave that country? Hell, no.

I am not against people immigrating to America. But I do think they should be legal immigrants, AND I think corporations and little mom n pop companies should be punished if THEY break the law and hire illegals.

[ChiciB1]

16. This Is A Solution I Agree With Too...

Fining the companies SHOULD be a requirement and I completely agree with your assessment!

Always the little guy! I think this IS the scheme behind The Idiot's stance... just more help for BIG CORP!!

[SeattleGirl]

19. Oh, no doubt about it, it's always the little guy.

And it pisses me off to no end. Heaven forbid Big Daddy Corporation should have to take any responsibility for it's actions. Just go kick the littlest kid on the playground and that'll take care of everything, right? :sarcasm:

[LiberalEsto]

8. My parents came here from Estonia but spoke English

and Estonian and German and Russian when they arrived. They spoke British-style English because that was how it was taught in their country, but they got along fine with it, and improved as they went along.

I was born here but didn't learn English until I started school.
I went to Estonian Saturday school, scouts, folk-dancing and summer camp. Didn't hurt me a bit. I'm an American, and I love this country even though I don't like the way it's being run now.

I personally know people of Hungarian, Latvian, German, Chinese and Argentinian ancestry who have had similar experiences and attended weekend classes in their parents' native language.

Knowing more than one language is immensely enriching, and knowing another culture besides one's own expands a person's horizons greatly.

I also strongly believe that if a person wants to live in another country, it is simple courtesy (as well as a survival skill) to learn to communicate in that country's language. I would not dream of moving to Italy or Mexico or some other country without trying to gain as much knowledge of the local language as possible beforehand, and working to learn it better after getting there.

[Sapere aude]

10. Do we need to make a distinction between legal and illegal immigration?

[SeattleGirl]

14. The distinction is already there. Do you mean should we

continue to make the distinction? Right now, I think we should, not to punish the illegals so much as to hold companies accountable for hiring legal immigrants (and yeah, I know they are not being held accountable right now).

I don't really like the "guest worker" program that Bush proposes, but I would have no objection to cutting some of the freakin' red tape that immigrants who want to have legal status have to go through.

[LiberalEsto]

20. The companies should also pay for English lessons

instead of dumping those costs on our overburdened school systems.

If a company is going to make a profit by importing low-wage workers from other countries, it should share some of that profit by providing ESOL instruction.

Why should these companies make their profits on the backs and wallets of American taxpayers? The school budget in my county has skyrocketed in part due to the massive need for ESOL instruction for the growing number of families moving here from other countries. These kids come from many different countries, so the schools need to hire instructors who speak all these languages, and the cost is high.

[SeattleGirl]

22. That is a great idea, Lib!

They absolutely should pay for it, or for at least part of it. (All of it would be better.)

[verse18]

12. IMHO, People can be a allegent to America

and still recognzie their country of origin. I speak as the daughter of legal immigrants.

English should be the offical language, but why can't we encourage all people to learn several different languages?

[SeattleGirl]

17. I think learning at least one other language would be an asset

to everyone. Unfortunately, I have to admit that I do not know anything but English, though I do plan to learn another language. It will probably be Spanish, because I have a number of Spanish-speaking clients, and it would be nice to talk to them without always resorting to an interpreter.

[Marie26]

15. That's so ridiculous

By quoting that, Dobbs is implying that anyone who speaks another language, or identifies w/their ethnic ancestry, isn't a "real" American. So people shouldn't call themselves Irish-American, or African-American? People shouldn't celebrate their Mexican heritage on "Cinco de Mayo"? 2nd generation Italian-Americans shouldn't speak Italian at their family reunion? That's so bigoted. Dobbs is basically insinuating that only English-speaking WASPS are "true" Americans.

Here's the quote:
"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

Has Dobbs ever, ever, done a show that isn't about immigration in some way?

[SeattleGirl]

21. Immigration is Lou's issue, to be sure.

I like Lou, and overall think he's a pretty fair guy. I know what prompted him to use that quote was the footage of the demonstrators today, carrying flags from their home countries while asking for full American rights for illegal immigrants. I confess, I thought that was a little weird. But I don't think the quote was appropriate in some of the things that it said, like having room for only one language. It shouldn't be either/or, it should be both/and.

[Marie26]

25. You're right

You said it better than I could. It's a very either/or quote - either you're with us, or you're against us. And he seems to be placing anyone who speaks a different language into the "against us" group. I agree that illegal immigration presents a number of problems; what bothers me about Dobbs is how he conflates together illegal immigrants, legal immigrants, & speakers of a foreign language and presents them all as a "problem". That's where it crosses the line into a form of racism, I believe.

[SeattleGirl]

32. That quote is racists, particularly with how blantant the language

part of it was, and I was disappointed in Lou for using it.

[Marie26]

35. I'm disappointed that

so many don't seem to see the racism inherent in that quote.

[SeattleGirl]

36. I know. I thought it was pretty blatant.

:shrug:

[mondo joe]

23. Of course learning English isn't the same as "giving up" their

native language.

I used to feel more flexible about the language thing, but these days I feel somewhat more inclined to have a primary national language.

[Marie26]

26. That's not what the quote says

The quote Dobbs used says: "Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all." So, anyone who says he is an Irish-American isn't an American at all. Anyone who speaks English, but also another language, has divided loyalties & is not a real American either. The quote isn't about asking people to learn English, it's about asking people to completely reject their cultural, linguistic, & ethnic identity in order to fully "assimilate" as an American. Because if they don't do that, they aren't "pure" enough Americans. There's a really disturbing undercurrent to this passage, & Dobb's use of it, IMO.

[mondo joe]

27. I think much can be read into the quote.

I don't think one can definitely conclude that per the quote anyone who ever speaks another language isn't American. I can see getting that from it, but I can see something else as well.

I really don't think it calls on anyone to reject their heritage, but to make one's loyalty to the US.

[SeattleGirl]

33. Mondo, is the "something else" you see referencing your

last statement in your post, about loyalty to the US? Just wondering, because I'm not quite sure if that's what you mean.

[Terran1212]

28. Teddy Roosevelt the racist and eugenecist?

Just making sure here.

[Marie26]

29. And Dobbs' hero?

That's the one.

[SaveElmer]

43. He has to be looked at in terms of the Progressive Era...

Roosevelt's views on race mixing were mainstream. It was viewed as a way of improving the human breed. Many treatises by well respected scientists, university Presidents etc weighed in on this topic. Many states had sterilization laws...

It is horrific now, just as slavery was a generation earlier, but Roosevelt did not hold views substantially different than most Americans in that era.

[Marie26]

44. But it's being used now.

Roosevelt's views might not have been unusual for his time, but what does Dobbs' use of it say about the atmosphere now? I finally figured out why this quote bothers me so much. Roosevelt wanted purity - ethnic & national purity. He wanted people to identify themselves as "American" only; w/o all that messiness of multiculturalism. Dobbs is sort of the inheritor of that point of view today - he wants to preserve a "pure" vision of America. But that view is dangerous, IMO, because the desire for "purity" is behind much of the racism & religious fanaticism in the world today - whether that desire is for a "pure" race, a "pure" fundamentalist religion, or a "pure" country. I dug up a quote from Salman Rushdie, who expresses this idea perfectly:

"The mélange of culture is in us all, with its irreconcilable contradictions. In our swollen, polyglot cities, we are all cultural mestizos. So it is important to make a distinction between multifaceted culture and multiculturalism. In the age of mass migration and the internet, cultural plurality is an irreversible fact; like it or dislike it, it’s where we live, and the dream of a pure monoculture is at best an unattainable, nostalgic fantasy and at worst a life-threatening menace — when ideas of purity (racial purity, religious purity, cultural purity) turn into programmes of “ethnic cleansing” or when Hindu fanatics attack the “inauthenticity” of Indian Muslim experience, or when Islamic ideologues drive young people to die in the service of “pure” faith, unadulterated by compassion or doubt. “Purity” is a slogan that leads to segregations and explosions. Let us have no more of it. A little more impurity, please; a little less cleanliness; a little more dirt. We’ll all sleep easier in our beds."

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,1072-1918306,00.html

Dobbs may be talking about immigrants, but at heart, this seems to be about the opposition between multi-culturalism/doubt vs. monoculture/purity that's really sweeping across the whole world. In this sense, the neocons, Islamic fanatics & Christian fundamentalists are all on the same side. They all seek to create a "pure" world, in which their culture is imposed on others.

[SaveElmer]

46. Yes you are right about Dobbs...

And Roosevelt's views on racial purity are wholly inappropriate. ANd there is clearly an undertone of racism and xenophobia in what Dobbs is saying. I was merely pointing out that for the time. Roosevelt's views were mainstream, and actually looked on as enlightened.

Having said that however, folks who do come here cannot expect to simply set up a small version of their country here. They do have to make some effort to assimilate themselves to the American traditions. The recent riots over the Mohammed cartoon are an example of that. WHen you emigrate to a country with liberal traditions of free speech, you have to expect to be offended sometimes without resorting to violence (I know this is in Europe, I am using it to illustrate a point.) This is a more extreme example.

You need to learn English, and the government should help you do that. When you are out in public, and when you are conducting business with others, especially if you do not know them, you need to use English. You need to learn the history and foundations of our country, and make an attempt to internalize the most important of them.

Obviously our country is a cultural melange of many traditions, and each group brings something of their culture to the table. These eventually get incorporated into the culture and become an AMerican tradition. But, where I live at least, I see and talk to so many people who have no intention of doing any of this. Many frankly, are here until the situation in their home country improves, and then they intend to go back. I sympathize with them, and am not among those that think they should be treated as criminals, but if you decide to move here, it should be with the intention of becoming an American, not simply an exile.

[damntexdem]

30. It was the same in Teddy's time as today:

The first generation mostly speaks their home language; the second generation is mixed; and the third generation predominantly speaks English (hopefully without having lost their legacy language).

[Bad Thoughts]

31. Roosevelt's remark was wrong and illegal

The people annexed from Mexico <b>were not immigrants to this country</b>: they did not move, the border did. Their right to speak Spanish was confirmed by the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo. Dobbs should have thought carefully before using this quote.

[SeattleGirl]

34. Yes, he should have.

The quote really isn't appropriate to the time in which is was said by Roosevelt, nor was it's use today by Lou appropriate.

[Bad Thoughts]

37. Lack of historical sense

I have already said my peace here.

[SeattleGirl]

Excellent post, BT.

Thanks for linking to it. Very well said. :thumbsup:

[Marie26]

45. Great post!

Thanks for the history lesson. Sometimes I wonder how many Americans even know that the Southwest used to be part of Mexico. A college acquaintance once tried to argue that the Spanish names of many towns was "proof" that the Mexicans have taken over the US. He didn't know that America had actually taken over the Mexicans!

[Minnesota Libra]

38. Basically it boils down to "when in Rome do as the Romans do".............

....so if someone wants to be an American citizen they should learn American ways. That is not to say they have to give up a native language in their own home - of course they don't.

Just learn our language and use it in public, celebrate our July 4th instead of or at least equally to their native country's "Independence Day". (Believe there are some cities where Cinco De Mayo is a bigger holida than July 4th).

[SaveElmer]

42. I agree with the quote...but TR had views which were not enlightened

If you look at Roosevelts views on immigration, you will see he advocated a form of eugenics. He was dismayed at people from certain areas of the world interbreeding with Americans and diluting the stock. He worried about a diminuation of the frontier man.

[Disturbed]

47. "Fining the companies SHOULD be a requirement."

I believe that Prison Terms should also be imposed on top of large fines.