CLOSE THE BORDERS!

[debbierlus]

America is BROKEN. We are a debtor nation. Our own people are struggling. Working two or more jobs to get by...

Our infrastructure is crumbling. Our health care system is broken.

Our jobs are profusely bleeding out of the country.

We are in NO POSITION to take on millions of impoverished people when we don't even take care of our own.

This country is no salvation. It is on the verge of a depression. Literally.

We need to shut the borders down, and fix our problems internally. We can't help the world when our back is broken. American's should be doing the jobs of the illegal immigrants. American employer's need to pay its workers a living wage.

We do not have the money to support impoverished people coming into this nation. This nation is on the verge of being completely impoverished without the additional weight.

They don't pay taxes. They use services that the people who are working multiple jobs are being denied. That isn't right.

We don't have endless resources.

America is in crisis mode right now. If we don't address our problems SOON, we will BECOME the third world nation these people are trying to escape from....And, then we will not be able to help ANYONE, including ourselves.

[RagingInMiami]

1. Yes, let's blame the immigrants

Rather than the corporate kings who run the country

[debbierlus]

5. I did not ONCE blame the immigrants

Not ONCE.

I said we don't have the resources or ability to take on all these people in the midst of the crisis this country is in right NOW.

The corporations have stolen our treasury and bankrupted us.

I do not fault the immigrants. I would much prefer to spend our money on all the issues that I wrote about in the above post.

But, the REALITY is that the money has been stolen. And, American is broken.

[BuyingThyme]

11. If you ain't got anything intelligent to say, play the race card.

[RagingInMiami]

25. If you got something to say about my intelligence

Make it a direct response to my post.

[BuyingThyme]

110. Okay, why do you make the case that the OP blamed immigrants

when he clearly didn't. What is the argument you're making?

[RagingInMiami]

129. Sometimes you have to read between the lines, but I doubt you will see it

The word "blame" may not have been used. The word "fault" may not have been used.

But the OP states that "America is broken" and the only solution the OP offers is to "Close the Border!"

After all, the OP argues, "They don't pay taxes. They use services that the people who are working multiple jobs are being denied. That isn't right."

In the above post, the OP insinuates that the immigrants are here milking the system while American-born citizens are slaving away at "multiple jobs." But the OP fails to give specific examples and I know those statements are far from true.

The OP heavily implies that if we don't close the border, then the country will no doubt collapse.

The OP fails to provide any other reason why America is broken. The OP fails to offer any other solution to this crisis. It is obvious that immigrants are being used as a scapegoat for the country's problems.

But of course, a person with your high-intelligence doesn't have to read the actual post when you agree with the initial subject line.

[BuyingThyme]

143. The facts don't change no matter who is to "blame."

And, no matter how hard you try, you just can't seem explain how immigrants are to "blame" for not closing the borders (whatever that means), now can you?

So, when the poster "blames" people for an inadequate border policy, you, unwilling to discuss the issue intelligently, go to great lengths to argue something that has no basis in fact or otherwise.

Why is that?

[RagingInMiami]

149. Please clarify this statement

no matter how hard you try, you just can't seem explain how immigrants are to "blame" for not closing the borders

Why else would you close the borders if not to keep immigrants out? To keep Americans in?

So, when the poster "blames" people for an inadequate border policy, you, unwilling to discuss the issue intelligently, go to great lengths to argue something that has no basis in fact or otherwise.

Please give examples of how I'm "arguing something that has no basis in fact or otherwise."

How would you "discuss the issue intelligently"?

You're barely making sense right now. Are you doing this deliberately or are you actually trying to make a point?

[BuyingThyme]

164. I'll make this easy for you:

1. The OP was about border policy.
2. Illegal immigrants don't make border policy.
3. Illegal immigrants can't be blamed for border policy.

Yet, somehow you decided that the OP, in demanding a change in border policy, was blaming immigrants. That doesn't make sense, now does it?

I know you understand this, and you just wanted to play games, but why? Why do you have to be dishonestly hostile?

[RagingInMiami]

167. Let me simplify it for you

"Border Policy" is a very abstract term. It doesn't define anything concrete. Kind of like "family values".

What do you think the republicans mean when they talk about "family values"? Do you think there might be a tinge of homophobia in that phrase?

Now tell me what is your definition of "border policy." And please don't talk to me in abstract terms because I tend to relate more to concrete terms.

Keep it real. Save the nonsensical rhetoric for someone more gullible.

[BuyingThyme]

175. For this "border policy" see the OP.

If you want to see nonsensical rhetoric, read your post. (Really, read it.)

Look, in your world, if somebody blames Bush for a horrible immigration policy, you say, "Yes, let's blame the immigrants."

That doesn't make sense. You understand that, right?

[RagingInMiami]

183. Are you reading the same OP as I am?

I can't find the part where the OP blames Bush for a horrible immigration policy.

The only human subjects mentioned are "we" and "they" and "these people" and "our own people" and "impoverished people" and "Americans" and "illegal immigrants" and "ourselves."

Get it? It's either Us or Them.

Oh yeah, "American employers" is mentioned once, but no mention of Bush. Not once.

But here are your words from your previous post:

Look, in your world, if somebody blames Bush for a horrible immigration policy, you say, "Yes, let's blame the immigrants."

Well, yes, I did say "Yes, let's blame the immigrants," but it wasn't in response to an OP where "somebody blames Bush for a horrible immigration policy."

If you don't mind, please cut and paste the part where the OP is blaming Bush for having a horrible immigration policy.

[BuyingThyme]

184. So, what do you think the OP is saying when he says

"CLOSE THE BORDERS!"? Do you think he's telling you to go close the borders yourself?

Is it the word policy that's giving you trouble? How about if. Do you know what if means? Do I need to explain every word? I'm starting to feel sorry for you.

Good luck.

[RagingInMiami]

186. First of all, the OP is a she

That's the second time you referred to her as a he. If her username, Debbierius, didn't give you a sense that perhaps the OP is a she, then you should have clicked on her profile, which further confirms that the OP is female.

Now I know it's not always that easy to determine the sex of DUer, but in those cases, such as an androgynous username, or a vague profile, then you should not automatically speculate the person's sex.

But of course you will never let actual facts keep you from making your inane assumptions.

[Bridget Burke]

40. Yes, there are white "illegal immigrants"

But they aren't the "impoverished people."

Anything to deflect the blame from Bush & his pals.

[blondeatlast]

56. CLOSE THE BORDERS--except to rich folks. Actually that would

make things just swell in Debbie's world, don'cha think?!

[RagingInMiami]

20. And reality is that immigrants do pay taxes

But unlike citizens, they are not allowed to claim a tax refund at the end of the year.

They pay income tax because their employers give them a made-up SS number, they pay sales tax, they pay gasoline tax, they pay tax on car registration, they pay taxes when they purchase a car, they pay state tax, they pay property tax.

Do you honestly believe if they were not being taxed that the federal government would have such a lackadaisical attitude toward immigrants?

[babylonsister]

64. But the immigrants are the ones who would suffer. How do you

justify that?

[Telly Savalas]

152. The U.S. is the richest country in history

and the labor of immigrants only adds more value. Our economic troubles are entirely related to distribution of that wealth, not the amount of it. This has everything to do with Washington's unwillingness to promote a pro-labor mixed economy and nothing to do with the level of immigration.

[JeffR]

8. I've read the OP 3 times

And I don't see any blaming of immigrants here. I don't agree with the idea of closing the borders, but there are plenty of indications that the country is poised for an economic catastrophe. One result of that would be a severe drop in the number of people who would even want to come to the United States.

And without the continued influx of immigrants, the country will eventually die.

It would be nice to see a poster share thoughts about immigration without automatically being accused of a "blame the immigrants" position.

[debbierlus]

16. Thank You VERY much.

[JeffR]

26. I knew you'd get flamed for this thread

But I figured people would do so on the basis of what your wrote, not on what they THINK they read.

[RagingInMiami]

75. The OP's post is obviously being interperted based on where people

stand on the immigration issue. It's an argument that has been voiced for more than a century. Kind of like the argument of higher taxes for social programs. You're usually either for it or against it.

Most people who have an opinion will rarely budge from that opinion, unless provided new information or a new argument, which would allow them to see things in a new light.

But the OP's post is something I've heard thousands of times in my life. I grew up in Miami during the 70s and 80s when swarms of immigrants were coming from Cuba, Haiti, Nicaragua and South America, and the same exact argument was being made.

In fact, my mother came from Colombia not speaking a word of English during the 1960s and experienced the same attitude.

But the truth is, the immigrants don't come to this country to milk the system. They come to work and start a new life. They come to allow their children to grow up in a land of opportunity. And I, the son of an immigrant, am thankful for that.

[JeffR]

86. And I'm thankful for it too

I grew up in Miami during the 50s and 60s, and all the Cuban kids I knew understood the attitude you're talking about.

Debbie may have made some unfortunate choices of words, but I think the intention of her post was to focus on the idea that the economically challenged, uncompetitive America Bush & Co have so diligently worked to bring about will benefit no-one, whether they're already here or, like my ancestors, desperate to come here. And on that, I have to agree with her.

[RagingInMiami]

100. Then you understand the real issue stems from the top, not the bottom

It is the sons and daughters of todays immigrants who will lead our country to a more progressive future, as has been done so many times throughout our history.

The only difference is that the offspring of this generation's wave of immigrants might have a bit darker skin than the offspring of previous waves of immigrants.

And that, I know, is what really bothers many people.

[JeffR]

109. Of course it stems from the top

I understand that, and I'd guess the OP does too, though I don't want to put words in her mouth.

How are things in Miami these days? Haven't been back for many years.

[RagingInMiami]

112. More than 50 percent people living here are foreign-born

Traffic is atrocious. There is a huge division between rich and poor.

But we will prevail as a city. Eventually.

[JeffR]

114. I hope so

I miss Miami, especially at this time of year.

[RagingInMiami]

119. It is the weather at this time of year

That makes up for the rest of the bullshit.

[QC]

165. We are not supposed to discuss this issue.

There's a small but very loud and vehement group here that makes it their business to silence any discussion of illegal immigration by throwing around accusations of racism. Some of them have already checked in and the others will, no doubt, drop by later.

[JeffR]

168. The Rovian notion of using immigration as a wedge issue

Starts to look pretty shrewd. Damn.

[QC]

171. The GOP is going to kick our asses with this issue in a few months.

It resonates with people whose wages are falling. Of course, the Pubes won't actually do anything about it--that might offend their corporate owners--but they'll play the issue for everything it's worth and we will come out looking--once again--out of touch with working-class voters.

[Marie26]

172. It's what they do best.

Divide & conquer.

[JeffR]

178. NanceGreggs & I were just talking about "divide & conquer"

As we trudged upstairs to our computers to see how the circular firing squad was progressing here.

[JeffR]

177. Your sig line

Is uncomfortably pertinent to all this squabbling.

[blondeatlast]

2. How? BTW, my husband just swore his oath to the US on Friday.

I heartily disagree with you.

[RagingInMiami]

78. Why do you hate your country?

Why couldn't you marry an American?

[blondeatlast]

101. It's those damn Irish again...

They born and bred me to hate REAL 'Merkins.

I say we throw 'em all out! And when we're done, let's help Canada ditch the Quebecois--damn "parlez-vousers."

:sarcasm: for the humorly-challenged...

Hell, Mr. BAL knows more about the workings of Washington than anyone I know--including me!

[RagingInMiami]

111. As the son of a Colombian immigrant mother

And Virginian-born father of German descent, who was born in Miami.

I was welcomed with open arms when I lived in Dublin just over a decade ago.

I worked, lived and partied with the Irish for two years. I don't have a drop of Irish blood in me, as far as I know, but they made me an honorary Irishman. We shared a passion for writing, drinking and laughing.


I still wear the silver Celtic ring given to me by an Irish lassie.

[CBGLuthier]

3. wow

so much racism so little time. How about you leave the country and then there will be room.

[JeffR]

13. Please point out the racism in her post

I didn't notice it.

[blondeatlast]

18. Try this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=747452&mesg_id=747535

[theliberalavenger]

169. Sad.

Time for a manshake

[cynatnite]

4. Americans don't want the jobs illegal immigrants do...

Most of them do the work that many Americans refuse to do. Employers prefer cheap labor.

What services are they using that Americans are being denied? That makes no sense.

Let's get back to reality here. The illegal immigrants aren't the problem. This regime is.

[BuyingThyme]

7. Americans will do ANY job at the market rate.

Let's get back to reality here.

[cynatnite]

23. Some will...not that many

I've seen college age girls who needed the money walk off the job because they didn't want to dirty their hands washing potatoes. Think about the jobs illegal immigrants wind up doing. Picking fruit and veggies, cleaning and other blue collar mininum wage work.

Employers get breaks from the government that gives them more cash. The tight wads don't want to pay full wages, workman's comp and other benefits. They can pay them cash under the table well under minimum wage.

Americans will not do ANY job at the market rate because it doesn't exist for most. There are a hell of a lot of jobs out there that should pay far more than they do.

[BuyingThyme]

37. By definition, Americans will do ANY job at the market rate.

No offense, but you have been brainwashed.

The way things work in this country is you pay as much as you need to pay to get somebody to do the work. That's all there is to it. It's not a trick or a talking point; it's just a fact.

You believe that difficult or uncomfortable work should pay less than white-collar work when the truth is just the opposite. You are campaigning against working people, and you don't even know it because you've been tricked into believing that up is down.

[cynatnite]

44. But who decides how much that work is worth?

The fact is most jobs don't pay their worth. I worked as a nurses aide for a while before going into the army. The work is hard and difficult. I was paid minimum wage and to this day I believe I should have been paid more.

Ask the guys serving in Iraq right now about what they make and if it's worth the work they do. They average $2000 a month and that's putting their lives on the line. Private contractors can go in and make that much in a week doing much less.

There are plenty of people who work their asses off day in and day out. They don't get paid their worth. That's the way it is.

I believe people should be paid fairly for the work they do whether it's behind a desk, in a field, or in the military. I have no idea where you got that I believed that hard work should pay less than white collar. :shrug:

[BuyingThyme]

54. If there had been a lack of nurses willing to do the work at minimum wage,

they would have paid more.

That's the way it works.

That's the way it should work with picking potatoes, also.

The reason I know you think hard work should pay less is because you believe Americans won't do hard work at the market rate. You actually believe that people should be brought in from outside of our country to do the work at less than market rates to the benefit of the rate payers and to the detriment of the workers.

[cynatnite]

70. How do you read so much into the very clear language I use?

I never said that Americans won't do hard work at the market rate. I believe people (all of them)should be paid fairly for the hard work they do.

In the real world, we need the illegal immigrants in this country. They are an important part of our workforce. Don't be in denial about this. Go to places like the California lettuce fields, the potato fields, and other places similar. It's the work available to these people. I'm sure if they had their choice, they'd be working in an air conditioned office making 150k a year...hell, I would :)

You won't look at the complexities of this issue and see that your blanket idea won't work. Rather than tear into people's lives, this economy and Mexico's economy, why not find a feasible solution that's beneficial to all?

To be honest, I find 'close the borders' rationale very racist.

[BuyingThyme]

85. I didn't offer an idea. I simply explained that the

Americans-won't-do-it nonsense is nothing but nonsense. Nonsense fabricated by people who want to screw the workers.

Now that you've run for the race card, I don't think anything can come of this.

[cynatnite]

98. You don't think there are people in this country...

who see certain work as being beneath them? You don't think there are snobs who don't want to dirty their hands?

They exist. There are people who do NOT want to do certain kinds of work for various reasons. Among them is because they think they're too good for it. It does exist no matter how much you want to deny it.

"Close The Borders" was the title of your original post...therefore your idea. Don't deny it now. I do consider this kind of thing racist.

As I mentioned before...my father and grandmother came to this country illegally. They came from a destroyed Germany after WWII after my father recovered from TB. They had to lie about their accents and claim Switzerland rather than Germany.

Most people don't have a problem with this when I tell them. That's because I'm white. If I had a brown face, dark eyes and black hair, you can bet they'd have a problem with it.

It's fucking racist. Paint it up to sound logical, reasonable and progressive as much as you like. I know what it comes down to.

[BuyingThyme]

102. You're not very good with your fallacies and race baiting.

Am I supposed to believe that you thought my argument was that everybody wants to do the same job? Enough already.

[cynatnite]

108. Huh??

Did I say that?

Geez, you're not very good at reading between the lines :eyes:

I'm giving you personal experience and knowledge. You just don't like it because the common sense of it goes against your short-sighted views.

Sure, I'm done, because I don't do flame wars and we're treading too damn close as it is.

[BuyingThyme]

120. BTW: I didn't write the OP, so, yes, I have to "deny" that I wrote the OP.

[cynatnite]

122. I apologize for that n/t

[Horse with no Name]

137. Nurses make $30 and up an hour

and we still have a shortage.
Why? Because there are a lot of folks who won't clean other people's shit and vomit, etc. even at those above market rates.
Funny thing is...nobody says a word when hospitals go to other countries and gives visas, etc to foreign nurses to come over and do the work here.
You are wrong. There are many American's who feel working hard is beneath them--even at the market rate.

[cynatnite]

142. There are nurses who delegate the shit and puke to the aides

I got delegated to a lot :)

In the trucking industry, a lot of companies have been recruiting overseas. There is a high rotation rate in trucking. Many drivers go from one job to another and never stay long. There are a variety of reasons for that, but more and more companies are looking to fill the void by bringing in people, training them and sending them out on a truck with little to no experience. Some of those guys have never been behind the wheel of any vehicle before.

Maybe it's a combination of some Americans who won't work hard and view some jobs as being beneath them.

[Horse with no Name]

147. But what is happening in a lot of hospitals across the country

is that they are having to pay such premium prices for nurses, that they are cutting back on aides, which in turn, will weed out the nurses who "tend to delegate more than others".
I started out as an aide 25+ years ago--and worked with nurses that would hunt me down for 15 minutes before they would empty a bedpan.:eyes:
Nurses can, by licensure, do the job of a phlebotomist, aide, X-Ray Tech, Respiratory Therapist and some of the other ancillary positions, so as the shortage worsens, nurses will be doing much more.

[BuyingThyme]

145. I didn't say anything about whether or not many Americans

feel that "working hard is beneath them."

But thanks for stopping by.

[Nikia]

173. In my area of WI, the nursing schools are full

Part of the nursing shortage is because they aren't turning out graduates fast enough. Some nurses who graduate find that they don't like the work, sometimes because of the shortages-having to do the work of a few people. Since only people with a specific degree can become nurses, there is a limit on how many nurses can enter industry in a given year.

[cynatnite]

176. Are you talking about those with BA's or Associate degrees?

It seems to me that it's more than a nursing shortage. We've got aging baby boomers, people are living longer and able to surive traumatic injuries and catastrophic illnesses due to scientific advances.

Even with what I said earlier about nurses doing a lot of delegating to aides, they still carry a huge portion of the burden when it comes to providing care. I've seen plenty of nurses who get tired after some years of hard unappreciated work and quit. Plus, a lot of them hope to get in a clinic with more normal working hours and not the backbreaking work a hospital or an ER takes.

[Horse with no Name]

193. The reason for the limits

Is because you don't have other nurses willing to teach and train new nurses. The nursing instructor, by her license, is responsible for each student in the hospital and stands to lose her license if there is an egregious error committed unsupervised.
The risk isn't worth the reward.
There is a nurse:student ratio in nursing school that is mandated by the state boards. One of the other reasons is clinical space. The hospitals decide how many student nurses that they can allow in the hospital at any given time because there is a certain liability attached to allowing non-skilled persons to do a skilled job.
The majority of nurses who get into nursing school strictly for the money are usually weeded out once clinicals begin.
Out of a class of 30 nursing students, you will generally lose 8-10--either to voluntary withdrawal, academic performance or malpractice.
When I went to nursing school, it was unheard of for a graduate nurse to go into a specialty area out of school. You had to "do your time" on a Med/Surg floor to help develop you into a well-rounded nurse. It was thought by seeing all of the different disease processes, it would sharpen and enhance your assessment skills.
With the shortages that has gone by the wayside. Many nurses leave school now with internships from medical centers in specialized fields. That is tragic, IMO.

[mitchtv]

230. No, you close the farm and import from Mexico

Americans won't pay for the higher priced agri product

[sandnsea]

59. That is a load

Because one person refused to do a job, it doesn't mean ALL people will refuse to do a job. My daughter emptied trash, cleaned toilets and picked up shit off shower floors in State Parks for 2 summers. She is the most girly girl you'd ever want to know. After that, she worked as an aide in an assisted living home for 2 years while she went to school. It is complete bullshit that we have to have the numbers of foreign workers we have to do these jobs. Businesses shouldn't be able to bring these workers in at $5 an hour, that's the problem. This is a labor and human rights issue and goes to the core of what kind of country we're going to be.

[cynatnite]

76. I don't think it is...

I've seen people refuse to take jobs they consider beneath them.

I've done some shitty work to put food on the table, but there are plenty who will walk the other way rather than lower themselves.

I don't blame the people coming here to look for a better life. My father and his mother came here hoping for a better life...illegally. I'm glad they did.

I do agree with you on this. It is a labor and human rights issue. That's what needs addressed and I think it's getting ignored in preference for the simpler 'close the borders' answer.

[sandnsea]

115. You've done the shitty work, I've done the shitty work

My husband's done the shitty work, as have every one of my kids. Do you know about half of the wildland firefighters are immigrants now too? My son in law makes good money in construction which didn't used to be called shitty work. But now that immigrants are doing it, it's suddenly shitty work too. I just reject that as a legitimate argument to support immigration.

I don't have a problem with anybody coming to this country to work. It isn't the issue to me. The issue is upholding our standard of living and we need wage and labor laws to do that. It isn't the immigrant's fault that our businesses constantly try to undermine them, and I don't want immigrants treated like second class citizens any more than I want to be treated that way or want my kids treated that way when they do shitty work. Shitty work makes this country function.

[cynatnite]

121. When I think of shitty work...I think of bedpans

Sorry, I don't specify that. And yes, I know about the firefighters. My cousin's station in OKC has been battling the wildfires in OK.

Shitty work is a very subjective thing. Medics I worked with considered crawling in the mud pulling a litter with a patient behind them as shitty work. It is shitty, because it's tough and dirty. It didn't mean we wouldn't do it. We would in a heartbeat.

Really, sandnsea, I do agree with you. There is work in this country a lot of Americans consider beneath them...aka shitty work, if you will. You're not in agreement with the terms that I used.

Illegal immigrants are an important part of our work force and should be valued.

I think the govt. can and should do more for these people and those who want to come here.

[NMMNG]

203. I do sh*tty work

I change adult diapers, clean up sh*t and puke, wipe snotty noses and drooling mouths, bathe adults, get hit/scratched/kicked/bitten by them, and so on. I've done this for eighteen and a half years and still don't make a living wage. I'm a lilly white American.



The notion that Americans consider "dirty work" beneath them is a stereotype.

[mitchtv]

231. Try picking Grapes in the Imperial Valley

in July 115+ degrees .For prevailing wages (or piecework)

[Nikia]

174. I think that wages are an issue

For example, I was contacted about a quality assurance position at a meat packing plant that starts with slaughter. The interviewer mentioned that 90% of the workforce there was Spanish speaking. I noticed on a website they were advertising for production workers there starting at $9.00. I thought "Here is an example of a job that Americans won't want to do, since they probably could get a job that doesn't involve killing, blood, and guts for the same or higher wage." I mentioned this to someone about how they found enough people to do it before the influx of poor immigrants to the area. Evidently such plants had been union and paid about twice that amount in the past.
In another example, I did seasonal quality assurance for my first job. The seasonal shift was mostly immigrants. That plant paid $2/hour less for general production than the company I work for now and that $2/hour does make a big difference at low wages.

[SPKrazy]

89. Not If The Market Has Been Pushed Down By Cheap Labor

Then you've got people working for peanuts to do jobs that most people don't want to do.

The real issue is the fact that immigrant workers are being EXPLOITED by corporate interests who love illegals because they will work for cheap, do just about anything, and will show up and work hard. That's exploitation.

I don't happen to believe that immigration is hurting our economy at all. In fact, it is supplying the labor force with lots of workers. Now, if we could stop exploiting them and pay them a fair wage for what they do, then maybe it wouldn't be such a crime.

[RagingInMiami]

95. The truth is

There has been a serious workforce shortage due to the reduction of births in the 1970s from the previous baby boom years.

It's no coincidence that our immigration rates skyrocketed during the 1990s when our economy was booming and the kids born in the 1970s were coming of work age. There were simply not enough people to fill the jobs.

If the jobs were not available, the immigrants would not have come. Why would they come to this country to be jobless when they can be jobless in their own country? They filled a serious economic void.

[treestar]

131. Exact;l;y and the immigration laws are so stupid, they even put

limits on people who are PROVEN TO BE NEEDED, just for the sake of keeping foreigners out, even if it hurts American companies!

Too stupid for words. Shooting ourselves in the foot, for what? To prove what?

This nation has always been of immigrants, and that is why it is the most prosperous!

This country is going to fall behind the EU, Australia and Canada if we spend too much time worrying about this crap!

[Beelzebud]

141. That is a bunch of BULLSHIT.

I worked at a local corn farm. Yeah I know. Real galmorous.

Guess who I lost my job to? Guess where they ended up moving that plant?

I lost my job because migrant workers were wiling to take 2 dollars LESS than me.

I lost the entire plant when they decided to move it to Peru to grow year-round.

This was after Monsanto bought DeKalb.

So you take that "they do the work we won't" and stick it where the sun doesn't shine, because I am unemployed right now, and I HAD a fucking job that they TOOK from me because people were willing to do the work I did on the cheap.

FUCK THAT BULLSHIT

Democrats used to be for the AMERICAN worker. what the fuck happened?

[RagingInMiami]

195. So if they moved the plant to Peru

Shouldn't we be blaming the corporate owners rather than the immigrants?

[Beelzebud]

213. I blame everyone invovled. From the cheap migrant workers, to Monsanto.

This isn't a simple issue, for sure. But if the workers didn't offer their services for below minimum wage, it would never have gotten started.

[Nutmegger]

6. This country was / is built on immigrants

It's Bush Inc we all loathe.

[debbierlus]

10. Will you PLEASE read the post!

It wasn't a RASCIST post in any way, shape, or form.

It talked about the problems facing this country.

I did NOT say I hate, loathe, or have any other negative emotion towards immigrants.

I am talking about the reality we face as a country.

Question:

Do you want limited resources going to help your local community and family or do you want them directed at illegal immigrants?

WE ARE FRIGGIN FALLING APART AS A NATION.

We DO NOT have unlimited resources. We have been bankrupted by the corporations.

And, yes, this country was built on immigration. So, wasn't the rest of the globe at one time or another. These are different times. If you haven't noticed, for the majority of Americans, the possiblity of the American dream in this time is dead.

[blondeatlast]

21. Try reading your post with "Irish" replacing the pronouns.

As I say downthread, if you'd gotten your way then, you wouldn't be reading this now.

Which I suspect you won't anyway.

[debbierlus]

126. I don't care if they are Irish, Spanish, French, Italian (Which I am)

Because the post is NOT ABOUT RACE!

It is about this country being bankrupt, having a broken health care system, a rising poverty rate, infrastructure falling apart and NOT being in the position to take care of the people already here - let alone more impoverished people.

For the UPTEENTH time.

America has been bankrupted and broken. Yes, the corporations did it. Yes, it sucks. Yes, we SHOULD have done things so much differently.

I am talking about the state this country IS in...not what it WOULD be like if Bush never happened...Yes, we can get him out. But, he has left us with a utter disaster and the consequences of his actions have YET to be faced. Now, we are faced with putting a broken country back together. We don't have the resources currently for the people HERE. Get angry with me all day, that is the FACT. We have to address the REALITY of the situation we are currently in - and we are on the fast track to a third world status. Some salvation it will be for those who came here in hopes of escaping that life only to find they have found it all over again.

We have to address our problems and heal.

Then, we can talk about how to address global issues again. I wish it weren't the case. But, that is where we are.

[Marie26]

170. What do you mean?

I don't think you're racist. But I don't understand some of the points you've made. Would you like to stop legal immigration as well? How would closing the borders solve the bankruptcy & debt of America? How will stopping immigration result in more resources for Americans, under a Republican government? I don't exactly see the cause-and-effect between immigration & the problems you've mentioned; or how halting immigration will solve those problems. But that could be my own mistake - so I'm asking in total seriousness. But I totally agree w/what you've said about needing to heal this nation; I guess we just differ on what the remedy might be.

[NashVegas]

206. It's Just So Much Easier to Fight Individually Powerless Immigrants Than .

It is to fight corporations, isn't it?

[Beelzebud]

144. This country was built on LEGAL immigrants...

[proud2BlibKansan]

179. who STOLE the land from Native Americans

[RagingInMiami]

194. And from the Mexicans

[babylonsister]

9. And what about the people already here? Any plans for their

future? And what's with 'they' and 'these people'? This issue is going to be really divisive for everyone and I fear alot of common sense will go out the door, and the creation of racism will blossom. I think that's a really bad idea and another way this country will be going backwards instead of forward.
I don't have an answer, but I think the immigration issues have to be resolved in a peaceful, humanitarian manner.
What will you tell the soldiers and their families who fought and/or died for our country that are not citizens? Now we just discard them?
Were it not for those open borders, BTW, most of us wouldn't be here.

[niallmac]

12. Well, yeah we are a debtor nation spiraling into the dirt but

I don't think, as your message could be taken, that it is the fault of illegals.
At one time this nation had enough wealth to handle health care for everyone.
This nation could have provided a college education to all who qualified.
We could have been the innovators of new transportation and urban living.
Instead those who feel it's all about them and that they are god's chosen
consumers and who could give a damn about the community of man and woman
have ripped off the productivity of this nation. They have thumbed their noses
at the international community because after all it's all about them.
That family that came over here to pick the lettuce and the grapes and
sew the garments at slave labor wages that you, I or anyone in our realm
of acquaintance would never do are not the cause of this nations problems.
Now? Yeah. We can't even tolerate them.

[debbierlus]

41. I didn't say it was the illegals fault

I COMPLETELY AGREE THAT IS WHERE WE SHOULD HAVE SPENT OUR MONEY.

But, that is not HOW we spent our money. And, now we are in a CRISIS.

AT ONE TIME...

I agree with you! Those are the choices WE SHOULD HAVE MADE.

Now, we are left with a nation in utter CRISIS and decreased ability to help anyone, including ourselves.

We are NOT taking care of our own poor. One in five children in this nation lives in poverty.

We live in a world of finite resources.

And, I am sorry, but I give the priority to taking care of those in my local community.

Perhaps, if we address the reality of what we can do and afford and heal this nation, we could once again serve to lift up the globe. And, do the wonderful things you suggested in your post.

But, WE CAN'T RIGHT NOW.

[Dogmudgeon]

14. Nonsense

We're fine.

There is more than enough material, intellectual, and "spiritual" wealth in this nation to go around.

It's our idiot "leaders" who are the problem.

Get rid of them, and within a decade, America will be strong AND beloved again.

Relax. Get involved. Join us as we kick the bastards out.

--p!

[EFerrari]

15. Care to back up all these allegations with actual facts?

Geezus, Joseph and Mary.

Who's next? Rush on abortion?

[BuyingThyme]

22. Facts:

America is BROKEN. We are a debtor nation. Our own people are struggling. Working two or more jobs to get by...

Our infrastructure is crumbling. Our health care system is broken.

Our jobs are profusely bleeding out of the country.

We are in NO POSITION to take on millions of impoverished people when we don't even take care of our own.

[EFerrari]

Dear Buying Thyme, that is opinion and concern.

Not facts.

[BuyingThyme]

38. Then you live in a factless world.

[EFerrari]

47. No, sadly, I don't. Go back over what you said.

It's perfectly valid concern. But there are no facts there.

[Iris]

55. oh, I thought you said she lives in a "Foxless" world

Those are FOX News style facts. Where are the statistics? Where are the studies? Or is this just all what "some people" say?

On edit: I'd especially like to see something about the "millions" of immigrants flowing into this country.

[BuyingThyme]

67. So which segment of our infrastructure is not crumbling?

Why do you believe the health care system isn't broken? Is outsourcing myth in your world? Are you in a position to take on the financial needs of millions of impoverished people? (Yes, there are millions. No statistics say otherwise.)

I don't think you really believe what you write.

[Iris]

71. I think I really believe that I'd like to see some actual numbers.

And until you can provide them, your opinion and ideas are just that.

[BuyingThyme]

99. Actually, it's from the OP. But I would love to see

the "actual numbers" that in any way support whatever it is you're selling here. Here's a start for my side of reality:

...a new estimate on illegal immigration released Tuesday shows the number of aliens has grown to about 12 million -- up about 8 percent in the past year -- with California once again expected to lead the nation.

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/local/14045863.htm?source=rss&channel=mercurynews_local

[Iris]

209. ok. And how about how this is affecting the infrastructure?

Because the immigrants who live around me, including on my block, take very little from the infrastructure. They're hard working people who take care of each other and the property they live on, whether they own it or not.

on edit: And I don't see how this is prohibiting anyone from fixing the infrastructure. The problem is the Republicans have created an oligarchic state and THAT'S why the infrastructure is fucked up. Want to fix healthcare? Fight the real culprits - the insurance companies and HMOs. They're the ones that made medicine a BUSINESS rather than a profession.

[blondeatlast]

17. Substitute "Irish" for "they," "illegal immigrants," and "impoverished

people"--and I wouldn't be typing this post.

[JeffR]

48. Substitute "Irish"

And the discussion would be about something else entirely. Since we're not discussing WHAT SHE WROTE, why don't we substitute "turnip" or "global warming" for those words?

[Bridget Burke]

57. Whatever we do, let's not blame the Robber Barons for our problems.

[blondeatlast]

65. Missed the point entirely--my ancestors came over in starvation

and poverty. I wouldn't be here if they hadn't.

The same rants were leveled at "their" kind, "those people."

But God bless 'em, they had the foresight to be white. :sarcasm:

[Clarkie1]

159. It is a fact they probably came legally, though. After a review process.

I'm not saying how this pertains the current discussion, just pointing out a fact.

[proud2BlibKansan]

181. And the legal avenues they took

do NOT exist anymore.

[Beaverhausen]

19. Why not blame the employers?

If no one hired these workers, would they still try and come here?

[debbierlus]

30. I wasn't blaming ANYONE

I was pointing out that we do not have the resources to take care of all of these people due to the state we are currently in...

The corporations SUCK. I would have MUCH preferred to take all the friggin money that they stole in Iraq and give it to help all the poor and struggling of the world.

But, that money is gone and spent. They have brought us to near ruin.

And, now we have to deal with the situation we are left with..

[NashVegas]

207. Resources to Take Care of These People?

I have to question whether you've spent any real amount of time among the immigrant community.

If you did, you'd have some idea of the amount of resources they don't take up, compared to their American-born counterparts. The simple fact of language barrier often keeps them from calling police when they should, keeps them from visiting a doctor until they are truly, undeniably, sick. The medical staff they do keep in business are GPs, not plastic surgeons.

[GRLMGC]

215. Not to mention that they are terrified of calling

the police for fear of being deported. Yeah, they have it so easy here :sarcasm:

[Lefty48197]

87. Hell, let's blame the people that eat lettuce

after all, if people didn't insist on paying $1 for a head of lettuce, then farmers could afford to pay union laborers to harvest their crops.

[mdmc]

24. GET RID OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS

we can't afford liberties! (if we became a third world country, what would the third world be called? Wouldn't we become a second world county?)

[brokensymmetry]

27. You've got a point.

The problem is, illegal immigration doesn't hurt the top 0.10% - on the contrary, it swells their profits. No, illegal immigration makes everything harder for the poor and working people. Their presence, and the exploitation of their status, suppresses the wage structure. Cheap labor is the guiding principle of the * misadministration, and it is the thrust behind globalization. To raise up the working men and women of America, we must bring wages up.

There is an elegant solution. Put any employer that hires an illegal alien into prison.

[MichiganVote]

49. Agree

[debbierlus]

28. It is a question of ALLOCATING RESOURCES.

We are TRILLIONS of dollars in debt.

We have nearly 50 million uninsured Americans. Our health care system does not accomodate the poor who already LIVE here.

We are on the verge of a depression. LITERALLY.

I believe we should address the issues that are breaking this country's back.

And, I do NOT appreciate being called a racist.

I am NOT a racist.

I am worried about the poor, struggling people who live here already and we don't take care of...

If we don't take care of them, how on earth are we going to lift up the impoverished who come here for help?

[Beaverhausen]

29. We could take care of everyone here...

but the administration has decided to send untold billions of dollars over to Iraq instead of spending it here.

I think our problems have very little to do with immigration.

[EFerrari]

33. Now, there's a thought. n/t

[debbierlus]

46. For the millionth time...........

We COULD HAVE...SHOULD HAVE...

WE DIDN'T.

It is a horrible reality.

It is a crying shame.

Now, we have to deal with what they did.

It sucks. I wouldn't have chosen it. I have fought Bush tooth & nail since the beginning

[Beaverhausen]

73. Ok, so when we close the borders and we are still in a huge mess...

...because of Bush and the BFEE, then who can we throw out? Who will we blame our problems on then?

And don't say this isn't about blame. It is. You are blaming immigrants for taking jobs that americans could have, but I have a big newsflash for you...very few americans would do many of the jobs these people do.

[cynatnite]

39. Closing the borders is too simplistic...

This is a complex problem that tears at the insides of a lot of people. If the govt. decided to deport every illegal immigrant they could find there would be some harsh repercussions. We'd lose an important part of our work force for one. No matter how you slice it, many Americans will not do those jobs. Not only that, families would be torn apart. Some are legal and others are not. Many times they follow loved ones who went before them.

Many of the illegal immigrants send money to relatives and that has become an important part of the economies of countries like Mexico.

Then you have corporations who want the undocumented workers because of the cheap labor. They don't have to pay them that much and can kick them to the curb if they get hurt on the job. Usually the corporations are in bed with the likes of bush and cheney who got them the big tax breaks. Why would they want to screw with that?

Saying close the borders and kick out the illegals will in no way solve the problem. It exacerbates it. I do think we need to find a way to help the workers already here and I also think we need to have some kind of program set up so immigrants can come here and work. It would protect them and us.

[Lefty48197]

91. If we deport all the Mexicans...

...will the man suddenly give living wages and health insurance to the rest of us? Hell, let's deport the Canadians too, maybe then we can shore up Social Security.

[Marie26]

31. CLOSE THE BORDERS!

Stop the corporations from leaving. Stop the Administration from selling US debt to foreign companies. If we don't address these problems soon, we will become a debt-ridden third-world nation. THIS is the problem. Why are people so eager to blame immigrants who contribute to the economy, instead of off-shore corporations that suck the economy dry?

[blondeatlast]

42. Dead-on perfect reply. Thank you for the stroke of sanity. nt

[AlCzervik]

32. they pay sales tax, they buy plenty of our stuff and immigrants will

continue to come here for as long as this country exists and plenty of americans don't have health care either so would you deny them as well when they go to the emergency room?

[Marie26]

52. They also pay property, & income taxes

I've seen this myth repeated over & over that undocumented immigrants "don't pay taxes." They do pay taxes. Undocumented immigrants receive a "Taxpayer Identification Number" through their employer that allows the IRS to tax their wages. They also pay property taxes on any property they own. And, undocumented workers pay into the Medicare & Social Security programs, even though they cannot use these programs once they get older. Yet, the mantra is still repeated that "they don't pay taxes." Why is that?

[AlCzervik]

72. i think it's easier to blame someone else for our countries ills then to

hold ourselves responsible.

[Bridget Burke]

34. Why don't we kick the Republicans out of Washington first?

(And I'd love to kick them out of Austin.)

Don't you think the deficit, the wars & obscene taxcuts for the rich are causing most of the problems you mentioned?

Or would you rather just blame the Brown Folks? (Yes, I know what you mean by "illegal immigrants.")

[AlCzervik]

36. where do i sign that petition?

[blondeatlast]

35. DAMN THE IRISH!

Wait--my greats and grands were Irish...

And they heard the same damn arguments directed at them...

Can we at least be original in our tired rants?

Edit: I LOVE killing threads!

[Bridget Burke]

43. They talk funny, they go to a weird church & they breed like rabbits.

Let's not blame the Robber Barons.

[Marie26]

62. Me too

Irish & Hungarian. My immigrant grandparents had some horror stories about how Irish & Hungarian immigrants were treated in America. Now, I guess, Irish & Hungarian people are OK. It's those MEXICANS!

[blondeatlast]

66. I thought she meant the Quebecois!

(Just kidding, of course!)

[foreverdem]

128. Irish Were Considered Bad News

My great grandfather had to pick up horse manure off the street and make fertilizer out of it to make a living (true story, Irish Need Not Apply sign hung in every place of employment). He did it to feed his family. My point is that people who come here will do whatever they have to in order to survive. They did then and they will now. They are not the problem.

[AndyTiedye]

45. There Were Plenty of Jobs For Everyone When We Had a REAL President

[cynatnite]

50. But this 'close the borders and deport them all' has been around a while..

I remember hearing about it during Reagan's term. It was all the same old tired rhetoric. The illegals are taking jobs (that most wouldn't want), they're draining our resources (we've done a fine job of that ourselves) and we've already got plenty of poor here (which not many seems to care about anyway).

No one has an answer to this because it's a complex issue that will take a smarter person than me to figure out.

[AlCzervik]

53. when the economy is bad the first that happens is the blaming of

immigrants. God forbid corporations pay a fair wage or---pay some god damn taxes.

[Iris]

60. when the Republicans are trolling for votes, the first thing they do is

find a common enemy. Last election, it was gay people. Now we've moved onto immigrants.

[AlCzervik]

63. and the really amusing thing about the gop using immigration is that so

many of their donors are paying them to look the other way so they can keep hiring cheap labor. It reminds me of Jack Abramoff working with one tribe to keep another tribe from getting a casino and then working for that tribe as well.

[Iris]

68. EXACTLY. There was a thread about "onion pickers" here the other day.

Everyone acted like it was a pick joke, but the onion farmers are always trying to get permission to hire "guest workers" to get their crops out of the fields within a certain time frame. And you can just guess how they vote.

[Marie26]

83. Everyone likes a good scapegoat. nt

[Iris]

90. You got it.

[IndyOp]

204. Not quite right. While there was job growth, he was busy laying

the foundation of international monetary policy that has contributed to where we are now. NAFTA and GATT and free-trade zones -- our jobs left because of those policies - put in place by him.

Seeing the past with a rosy glow won't help us create a better tomorrow.

[AndyTiedye]

219. But We Had Full Employment Anyway

It is OK to blame Clinton for NAFTA, though I will admit even I thought it was a good idea at the time.
I was wrong, obviously, and so was he. That said, not many of our jobs went to Mexico, compared to
China and India.

We had full employment anyway, with rising wages and prosperity and peace.
I'd take that over where we are now any day.

GATT has been around since 1947. In the post-WW2 environment where Europe was still rebuilding,
such an agreement would have been greatly to our benefit. It is less clear now, but GATT stil
includes most of the worlds industrialized countries. Are you advocating that we pull out
of GATT?

I am not sure when the *tax incentives* for offshoring came in. Do you know?
We certainly are not under any treaty obligations to provide those.

Reversing those tax incentives was one of the things Kerry campaigned on.

I am not necessarily opposed to international trade agreements.
They just don't go far enough.
If we export our jobs, we should be exporting our labor and environmental regulations too
(as well as maybe IMPORTING some better labor laws from Europe).

International trade should not be a race to the bottom.

Trade agreements COULD be a mechanism to raise these standards instead of lowering them.

[Festivito]

220. Won't help to look back with stained glasses either.

AndyT.. is quite right. There were plenty of jobs.

Those agreements are like double-edged swords, they can cut new jobs in either direction, if swung properly. Clinton swung properly. Bush and RepubliCONs in general, do not. If you don't agree with me on this, fine. Just one thing.

When in controversy, state your ideas very very clearly.

Let's not look back and miss what we both can see together.

[Iris]

51. Are there really MILLIONS of impoverished people coming here?

In what time frame? Every year? Every month? Every decade.

This is a bullshit crisis made up by Republicans to play on the xenophobia and racism of the kind of people who will vote for them.

[babylonsister]

58. And others, apparently.

:eyes:

[Iris]

61. yes, no shit. This makes my stomach hurt.

Seeing crap like this here.

[babylonsister]

69. I've been reluctant to jump in

because there are many people at DU who feel this way. The repugs have stirred up a hornet's nest which is as big of a wedge issue as I've ever seen. Five years ago, I never heard a peep about this.

[Iris]

74. Well, I find it hard to sit by and let an entire group of people be

demonized while the very people I would expect to see through it jump right in.

[mdmc]

79. This is DU for fucks sake

start acting like progressive liberals or shut the fuck up.










(obviously not directed towards you - Iris):yourock:

[Iris]

80. AMEN!

My God. Is this the party that fought for Civil Rights!?!?

[debbierlus]

132. How does addressing the fact that

America is taxed beyond her resources degrade the fight for civil rights?

I am absolutely appalled at so called 'liberals' (and I consider myself to be a liberal) who get angry that we address the reality that America is on the verge of economic collapse and we can't RIGHT NOW...

The Republicans SUCK & DINOS who stole the treasury. It is TERRIBLE that the money was not put into raising the poor and working class out of struggle and allowed us to reach out to those who need the help & come here.

But, THEY DID. They stole it. Broken health care. Broken infrastructure. Not enough resources to take care of our own local communities needs.

Shouldn't be that way...

Terrible, awful thing. COMPLETELY AGREE.

BUT IT IS THAT WAY...

So, you choose:

Local elderly lose programs or services

Illegal immigrants get benefits.

Shouldn't have to be either or....TERRIBLE that it is...

BUT IT IS...You are ALL RIGHT. 100%. SHOULD HAVE done it differently. Should not have put ourselves in a position of debt and political weakness. So weak that we are just trying to keep it from falling over the edge....

I am not a racist.

I am not a neo-con.

I am a liberal who works with the homeless in my community, a nurse, a mother of two, a volunteer....

I work my azz off for liberal causes.

I say to this board - 'I don't think the country can handle the cost and stress that illegal immigrants put on the system'....

For now....

Do to the fact that we are in a fiscal, political, & constitutional crisis...

And, I am friggin crucified.

By people who put themselves above the Republicans because they can't debate.

Look in the friggin mirror.

[proud2BlibKansan]

182. ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS PAY TAXES JUST LIKE WE DO

You have been told this fact over and over in this thread, yet you continue to say they are the problem.

That is why you are being crucified. sheesh. Talk about playing the victim. :eyes:

[babylonsister]

82. As you can see, I'm coming out of my

silence, too. If all those brave people the past few days can march and express their disgust, so can I, dammit! :toast:

[Iris]

84. Yep. I drove past the state capitol in GA today for chrissakes and if

those folks have the guts to hold up a sign in this state, then I'm not gonna sit by and let them get trashed by people who should know better.

[mdmc]

94. to the street!

:kick::patriot:

[blondeatlast]

96. DAMN STRAIGHT!

:patriot:

:bounce::bounce::bounce:

[mdmc]

92. go!

:patriot:

[Marie26]

158. Yeah

No, people here don't believe the MSM & don't buy the stories reported on TV news. We see through propaganda instantly - unless it conforms to our own personal prejudices, of course.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

77. The problem with you simplistic idea is that it won't work.

"Closing the borders" won't save the American Dream.

The capitalists need cheap labor to make a profit. If they can't make the bottom line the corporations will die or be killed by the competition. If the American workers aren't prepared to work for less, then the corporations will continue to import labor or export the jobs. And, the American people will continue to buy foreign products because American products are over priced on the world market.

The further problem is that we depend on foreign trade. Not just Sony and Toyota or even Chinese made boxer-shorts, but little items like oil, tungston, copper, tin, steel, lumber.

If we "closed the borders" to immigrant labor and foreign goods it would lead to massive inflation. Are you willing to pay $10 per pound for tomatoes? What happens when the $5 per hour undocumented workers are replaced by $15 per hour "legal" citizens in hospitals. Think health care is high now?

The truth is that America has been living off the backs of the rest of the world's peoples since the end of WWII. We've exploited their resources and labor on the cheap. The bills are now coming due.

Welcome to the "free market".

[Lefty48197]

81. absolute bullshit

The "Mexicans" were in Texas, Arizona, and California about 10,000 years before white people set foot there. I think we whities are the invading army. Should we be deported back to Europe or something?

[cynatnite]

88. Your post made me wish I was French :)

Hubby is part Sioux, so we might get to stay here. Then again when I think about it, his great grandfather came from Russia.

Damn, I think we're screwed.

[RagingInMiami]

103. And don't forget New Mexico and Colorado

[Clarkie1]

157. It is also a fact that many areas of the U.S. were once part of Mexico.

Not saying how this pertains to the issue at hand, just throwing a fact out there.

[Lefty48197]

234. IF you're suggesting that we give Texas back to Mexico

then I concur.

[Clarkie1]

235. California was also once part of Mexico. What about that? n/t

[Lefty48197]

236. No.

We can give them Wyoming and Utah as compensation.

[arcos]

93. LOL!! Do you have ANY clue about the situation of other countries??

The US is the richest country in the world. You have MORE than enough resources for yourself and many, many millions more. The thing is that most Americans simply don't care enough to vote and actually make things better for everyone, where people have more power than corporations and not everything is money related.

[JeffR]

104. Best comment on the thread

Well said!
:toast:

[RagingInMiami]

105. Yeah, but we don't have "Pura Vida!"

[KamaAina]

97. CLOSE THE BORDERS!

Barnes and Noble has a better selection and more knowledgeable staff, anyway. :eyes:

[blondeatlast]

107. And they're BLUE!.

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

This thread has actually turned into quite a funny one!

[RagingInMiami]

135. who's blue

Barnes and Noble?

How about Borders? I always thought of Borders as more Blue and B&N as more Red.

[blondeatlast]

148. I used to work for B&N--they are very blue.

http://www.buyblue.org/node/326/view/summary

And for a retailer, they treat their employees better than average.

[radio4progressives]

106. oh puhleeezzeee..

let's put the blame on poor people! don't ya just gotta love it.

[Canadian Socialist]

113. Right, there goes MY shopping trip

to Montana... thanks for the heads up...:sarcasm:

[blondeatlast]

118. Hey, you're next if you don't do something about those Quebecois...

They're French, you know! :sarcasm:

[Canadian Socialist]

123. Actually, they're not...

they are Pequistes... heeee...

[BlooInBloo]

116. Um, not to breakup the racism party or anything.....

... but those immigrants are the only thing keeping this country profitable.

Practically none of them are unemployed, and practically all of them work for very low wages.

Hence, profitability of American companies.

The healthcare system wouldn't be any less broken without them - there would just be slightly fewer people to bitch about it.

Tell me why, exactly, do you want to hurt American profitability?

They don't drain our resources, the PROVIDE resources.

Is brown skin really so awful that you want to hurt our resources and profitability?

[Clarkie1]

117. I think an enforceable guest-worker program is the best option.

We cannot close ourselves off to the world, but neither can we undermine the integrity of our laws and our nation.

[leftstreet]

125. Wow. That's what the Bush Admin wants.

They want to have "guests" in our country so that corporations can exploit them.

[Clarkie1]

150. No. Not at all.

I want an ENFORCEABLE guest-worker program so corporations CAN'T exploit workers.

[leftstreet]

185. But why should ANY worker in America be a "guest?"

Labor is larger than nation states. Any legislation that would prevent corporations from exploiting workers, would be legislation that guarantees ALL labor access to the same protections. And we already have those laws in place.

[Clarkie1]

196. When someone comes to your home, they are your guest. n/t

[Clarkie1]

198. But those laws don't work because the people are not here legally.

Thus, the creation of a "labor underground."

We need a guest worker program to stop the exploitation of guests in our country.

[leftstreet]

199. So make them legal. Give them the same protections we have.

And let the corporations solve their own problems.

If ConAgra can't figure out how to get a product to my fingertips at a competitive price without exploiting labor or manipulating the legislative process - that's not my problem.

I support Labor, not Corporations.

[Clarkie1]

201. Mexico has an overpopulation problem. They need to address it. n/t

[leftstreet]

202. "they"

Well there ya go.

"There are no nations. There are no peoples. There are only corporations."

It's us (labor) vs them (corporations).
How hard is that to understand?

:shrug:

[Clarkie1]

214. I disagree. Nation states need to be responsible for themselves first.

Just as people must first take care of themselves; it is only then we are able to reach out to others in compassion.

[Ksec]

124. I agree

It makes no sense driving the US into third world by becoming third world.

Theyve driven their own countries into the ground and elected leaders who are corrupt and do NOTHING to change it. Then they come here and bitch about the way we run our country.

[cynatnite]

133. More blaming

:eyes:

How did 'they' drive their country into the ground?

Please be specific. I want to make sure there is no misunderstanding.

[Clarkie1]

153. Overpopulation.

I don't agree with the poster, but overpopulation is what is driving a lot of these issues.

We need to recognize that non-citizen immigrant labor benefits both sides of the border. However, we need an enforceable guest-worker program to prevent exploitation of workers and secure our borders.

[lonestarnot]

127. We are still searching for bodies in N.O.

and on edit, we can't afford crime scene tape, because the city hasn't been taped off!

[treestar]

130. America is the most prosperous nation on earth, because it

allows for economic movement.

Who cares who was born where? The best person for the job, and the company and the economy benefit.

What a waste of time and energy to worry about this stuff.

Just give them visas so we know who is here.

[Ksec]

134. No problems with them driving down wages?

How is that good for the country and its economy other than enriching the corporate world at American labors expense.

You flood the labor market with people willing to cut my family out of a decent wage. Thats killing the economy by killing people with wages that are able to buy things. How is a guy making 2 bucks an hour good for me, the economy or any other US laborer? It makes brocolli cheaper? Big deal. The downside is much greater.

[NNN0LHI]

136. Lou Dobbs? Is that you Lou? n/t

[Generator]

138. Borders go both ways

You might want to GET OUT someday, you never know.

That was my first thought.

Secondly, I understand we cannot support endless immigration BUT the real sources of your blighted America is the money pit that is the military. I hope those trillions we will never seen again are worth it since you are "safe" from those damn Iraqi's and that Hitlerian Saddam. Not you personally, you are probably against the war, know it makes you no safer. But immigration is a major canard. It's WAY down the list on my list of the top few things we need to fix to say America is a good place again. I'd start with the blank check to the military for phony wars. Then I'd find a way to make sure the corporations kept jobs here or no fat paycheck and tax breaks and all the other things that Congress makes sure they get so we can send our jobs to China. Why aren't you worked up over China? We have much less in common with them then our sweet neighbors to the south. CLOSE the border with China is what I say! No more plasic shit. Let's make our own plastic shit.

Solve those and I think we might even be able to help those that want to work those shitty jobs and send a few bucks back south and get health care and gasp-we could get health care too!

I'm not holding my breath, however, which brings me back to the open border.

[cynatnite]

140. Best post of the entire thread!

Well said! :patriot:

[Horse with no Name]

139. The problem isn't immigration

The problem is the economy. The immigrants just make good scapegoats.

[Kansas Wyatt]

146. Sorry, the Democratic Party missed a golden opportunity

And just gave it to the Republicans to do as they please.

ILLEGAL Immigration (NOT anti-immigration) has been undercutting and destroying the American Worker, with an overwhelming abundance of cheap labor to make Republicans happy. Many choose to believe that illegal workers only take low wage farm jobs or dirty low wage jobs, but that is a false belief. Illegal workers can be found on many construction sites, factories, and labor positions all over the country, and American Workers are pissed about it. Illegal workers have undercut wages so much, that Working Americans cannot afford to compete in those job markets anymore and still have anything to show for their labor. Job markets that use to provide for them and their families, before cheap illegal labor came along. Even though the Republicans get exactly what they want in their cheap illegal labor, many Democrats still do not give a shit about the blue collar worker who watches his future go to cheap illegal immigrant labor.

Before anyone rises to advocate for illegal immigration, put yourself in the shoes of the American Worker who now has to compete with the flooded cheap illegal immigrant labor market, for the remaining jobs that have not been outsourced. Working American's lives are being decimated, yet that is suppose to be meaningless compared to allowing illegal immigrants taking what blue collar jobs are available because illegal immigrants deserve a job too. Just piss on the American Worker, they can sink themselves in student loans and go to school for a risky false promise in their future. In the meantime, compete for rock bottom wages, just like the Republicans want. Before anyone advocates allowing illegal immigration to continue unchecked, give up your livelihood and economic welfare first, then you can advocate with some credibility.

Many Democrats wonder why working people vote against their best interests. Watch your livelihood and economic well being go to illegal immigration, while Democrats advocate giving illegal immigrants free wage cutting access to the labor market, then you can understand why.

[RagingInMiami]

151. Sorry, that "golden opportunity" would have divided the democratic party

Just like it's dividing DU.

It's not sbout illegal immigrants, it's about worker rights.

[Clarkie1]

154. Yes, which is why we need an enforceable guest-worker program.

That really protects the rights of workers.

[alittlelark]

155. The R's are beholden to corporations that LOVE cheap labor....

'nuf said.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

156. Closing the borders is not addressing the true problem at the...

...root of all of our current problems.

Who engineered the massive election fraud during the elections of 2000, 2002, and 2004?

Who allowed the attacks of 911 to take place?

Who engineered the hugely repressive Patriot Act?

Who gave huge tax cuts to the rich at the expense of our social programs?

Who got us into the massive military mess in the Middle East that's draining our treasurey dry?

Who failed the citizens of the Gulf Coast after the successive hammer blows of Ivan, Katrina, Rita, and Wilma?

Who is currently trying to get us into additional conflicts in the Middle East?

Who has turned virtually all of our former allies against us?

Every damn bit of the multiple issues facing us today can be traced back to the actions of the NeoCons over the last two decades. These people didn't come out of nowhere...they gained their power little by little until they controlled the Legislative Branch, the Judicial Branch, and finally, the Executive Branch. Since taking power in December 2000 with the help of the U. S. Supreme Court, they've been replacing key civil servants in all branches of government with people loyal to the NeoCon cause.

Blaming immigrants for what's happening to our nation today is just plain barking up the wrong tree.

IMHO, it is going to take massive civil disobediance to restore this country to what it once was. It may even take some massive overhauling of the government and how elections are funded.

BUT, SOMETHING HAS GOT TO BE DONE SOON!!

[RagingInMiami]

163. Yeah, but that means we're going to have to get off our asses

And take our country's destiny into our own hands.

It's so much easier to blame the country's woes on Jose Luis Chaves Vasquez, who works from 6 a.m. to 6 p.m. cooking the food we eat when he dine out, cutting the lawns in our middle-class suburbs so we can keep up appearances and picking the lettuce we eat in our Ceasar Salads (which was invented in Mexico, by the way).

[WillyT]

160. Open Your Mind !!!

:grouphug:

[im10ashus]

161. "America is in crisis mode."

We were in crisis mode in 2000 when they stole the election. They are stealing our votes and creating paranoia out of thin air. That is a crisis.

[suffragette]

162. Shutting out the world won't fix these problems since they are internal.

They are a result of choices made: in distributing money to already wealthy corporations and individuals through war contracts and tax breaks, in having our scientists focus on the creation of new killing machines and ways to track us instead of alternate energy sources and sustainable habitats, in siphoning money to insurance companies rather than instituting Universal Health Care, in breaking the backs of the unions, chasing out the dedicated civil servants who form the core of a functioning government and diverting resources away from education and social programs where we most need it.

As long as these people are in power, they will make these same choices, immigrants or none, legal or not, walls or no walls.

[DaveinMD]

166. immigrants pay more in taxes than they take in services

they buy stuff that is taxed and they create more jobs through their labor. We need more immigration, not less.

[countryjake]

180. I prefer to take care of those living in my own area...

and closing the borders would put an enormous strain on many of my friends and neighbors, both emotionally and physically. Being walled away from and unable to visit family puts an incredible burden on people, as was learned by the severe separations caused when the Berlin Wall was built. Penalizing those with kin in foreign lands, by taxing the support they offer to those far away and criminalizing them for simply trying to "visit" or help their loved ones really doesn't sound much like anything a democratic nation would ever do, does it?

[John Q. Citizen]

187. What do you mean they don't pay taxes? Will you source that please?

[im10ashus]

188. Don't waste your breath, J.Q.C.

There apparently is little difference between the republican and "democrat" point-of-view on this topic. Strange as it may seem. :shrug:

[John Q. Citizen]

189. Thanks, that's probably good advice. When xenophobia takes hold,

rationality is out the window.

[im10ashus]

190. Exactly!

Herd mentality. :-)

[John Q. Citizen]

191. I think we need an immigration policy. But when I read "They don't pay

taxes" I realize the OP doesn't have a clue about what the reality of the situation is.

"Close the boarders" is the rallying cry of the so called "Minute Men" isn't it?

[im10ashus]

192. It is the rallying call of something.

But I just don't get it. Listen to your heart. You seem to get the bigger picture. :-)

[OzarkDem]

197. Agree

our health care system is overloaded to the point of collapse. We can't keep doing this. Maybe we can open them up again some day when things get better, but I agree, otherwise we're on our way to becoming a third world country.

[B Calm]

200. Raise the minimum wage to $16.00 an hr and fine employers

who hire illegals!

[rman]

205. There are no borders for big corporations,

who do the outsourcing of US jobs and wealth.

And they don't pay taxes either.

[debbierlus]

208. I did some research....And, learned a few things.

Here are some stats...which were interesting and included some facts I did not know.

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

I am not sure of the answer to this complex problem. I should not have made a blanket statement to close the borders entirely. But, I do believe illegal immigration is a huge tax on a broken system.

This thread was interesting for me.

I learned that I should not make blanket statements out of frustration.

And, I learned that after hundreds of thoughtful posts and recommendations by many people, one post that people do not agree with and you are toast! Leave the country. Racist. Read the thread....

To everyone that responded to the content of the post and offered thoughtful counter points. Thank You. I appreciate the perspective and information. We need to have a dialogue about this issue.

And, to the rest of you. I will admit that I struggle with this issue. But, some of your comments were WAY out of line.

[doublethink]

210. Your 'Research' source is ..... well dubious ..... keep researching .....

CIS ...

" The Center for Immigration Studies (CIS), an anti-immigration advocacy group that masquerades as an objective “think tank,” has issued yet another “study” that concludes with the same “findings” and “policy implications” as virtually every other CIS report.

Let’s be clear: CIS was birthed by FAIR, the militant anti-immigration group. The CIS Executive Director moved from FAIR to CIS to head up the organization. Although now independent, the two organizations share the same basic agenda: an American version of what in Europe is called “zero immigration.

In this particular report, what CIS leaves out is notable. According to Frank Sharry, Executive Director of the National Immigration Forum, “Where is the honest appraisal of how narrow-cast fiscal studies miss the larger and more important contributions that immigrants make to economic growth, competitiveness, and productivity? Where is the acknowledgement that overall immigrants pay more in taxes than they use in services and contribute billions to our national income every year? Where are the estimates of how much the U.S. benefits from the education immigrants receive in their countries of birth? Why don’t they acknowledge what honest studies found: that after the legalization program signed into law by President Reagan wages for immigrant workers increased and English language and jobs skills increased, and productivity increased? And how does CIS square the “findings” of its “studies” that portray immigrants as an economic drain on the U.S. economy with the incontrovertible fact that this nation of immigrants has the strongest economy in the history of the world?”

Immigrant Contributions to Economic Growth and Revenues ... -snip-

read rest of article here .... http://www.ilw.com/search/documentFrame.asp?Request=+Frank+Sharry&nPage=1&sort=Date&MaxFiles=25&Fuzzy=&Phonic=&Stemming=Yes&NaturalLanguage=No&HitNum=4&cmd=getdoc&DocId=2448&Index=%5c%5cilw%5cwwwroot%5cdtSearch%5cILW%20Web%20site&HitCount=6&hits=40+41+f4+f5+56c+56d+&hc=92&req=+Frank+Sharry

a couple of other links that might interest you ...

http://www.mediatransparency.org/recipientgrants.php?1147

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=93

Peace. :)

[phusion]

211. good follow-up post...

:toast:

[RagingInMiami]

212. Interesting study

It was very well-researched and unbiased. Thanks for taking the time to research the issue.

According to the study, illegal immigration created a net fiscal deficit of $10 billion in 2002. An astronomical amount of money for people like you and me.

But if you take into consideration that the entire federal deficit was $157.8 billion for that same year, you can clearly see that illegal immigration is responsible for less than 7.5 percent of the entire deficit for that year.

On the links below, you can see that the federal deficit fell below $300 billion in 2003, and below $400 billion in 2004, breaking all previous records.

But during the late 1990s, when illegal immigrants had been sneaking into this country for almost a decade in record amounts, we twice had a surplus of more than $100 billion and $200 billion for one year. Of course, we had a different president, but the immigration laws were still the same.

http://www.kowaldesign.com/budget/ (This link leads to a simple graph)
http://www.gpoaccess.gov/eop/tables05.html (This link leads to a chart with more specific numbers, but you need to scroll down to B-78 to read it)

In other words, our country may be broken, but I think it's a stretch to blame illegal immigrants. And yes, I know you said you never blamed them, but that is how I interpreted it. And I'm not trying to restart a flame war because I think by now, we already know where we both stand on the issue.

The truth is, the issue of immigration ignites the same passion in me as abortion does to some female DUers or gay marriage to some gay DUers.

It's a very personal issue. It's a very humanistic issue. It's not just about numbers.

[doublethink]

218. Unbiased? CIS? ......

research the source of this study RagingInMiami .... before giving the OP the benefit of the doubt on this one. Seriously. Please read the articles in post #210. All the best, and Peace. :)

[RagingInMiami]

222. I didn't know they were funded by FAIR

I read "non-partisan" and "independent" so I guess I fell for the hype. However, it did seem like a pretty honest assessment of the situation.

I'm a realist, I realize that the immigration issue is no bed of roses. But I'm also well aware that it is not contributing to the downfall of our society. I blame the pigs at the top for that.

As far as me giving the OP the benefit of the doubt, I don't believe she is deliberately trying to mislead us with biased facts. She acknowledged that she made a broad, sweeping statement in the initial post, as so many unaware Americans tend to do about this issue, and she sought out further research.

I would like to see the reports that answer the questions that were asked by Frank Sharry of the National Immigration Forum:


“Where is the honest appraisal of how narrow-cast fiscal studies miss the larger and more important contributions that immigrants make to economic growth, competitiveness, and productivity?

Where is the acknowledgement that overall immigrants pay more in taxes than they use in services and contribute billions to our national income every year?

Where are the estimates of how much the U.S. benefits from the education immigrants receive in their countries of birth?

Why don’t they acknowledge what honest studies found: that after the legalization program signed into law by President Reagan wages for immigrant workers increased and English language and jobs skills increased, and productivity increased?

And how does CIS square the “findings” of its “studies” that portray immigrants as an economic drain on the U.S. economy with the incontrovertible fact that this nation of immigrants has the strongest economy in the history of the world?”

[doublethink]

223. Before we get to that (I hope you read the whole article)

..... go to the second link on post 210 .. never mind ..... I'll re-post it here http://www.mediatransparency.org/recipientgrants.php?1147 and go to the column Funder (right hand column) and click on some of those donors to CIS. Anyway I agree with you that the OP hopefully isn't trying to mis-lead with biased (bs) non-inclusive facts this narrow study trys to argue. I have seen a few other posts by the OP on other threads and respect probably every other thing quite highly I've ever read her say. She made quite a courageous stand on trying to keep Alito off the bench awhile back, which was just awesome. I just think on this issue She is wrong, oh so wrong. But live and learn, we all do. :hi:

[doublethink]

232. Okay ....

"I would like to see the reports that answer the questions that were asked by Frank Sharry of the National Immigration Forum:"

go here and take your pick ..... http://www.immigrationforum.org/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=146 Peace again.

[4freethinking]

216. The LA Times had

an article on legal and illegal immigrants wages a few years ago. Illegal immigration will keep their wages and standard of living low. There is no need for profit minded employers to improve the wages of legal/illegal immigrants when illegal immigrants are coming over the border everyday that will do that same job and not ask for an improved wage. So long as we continue on the same path their economic condition as well as their children's will never improve. In the past European descendants in this country drew the line on immigration when it came to European immigration during the Great Depression for economic reasons. Immigrants in this country may want to consider doing the same when it comes to their current and future economic condition.

[Deja Q]

217. Maybe it's intentional.

More than just profit at work...

[radio4progressives]

221. Wake Up Sheeple! This so called "crises" is Manufactured Psy Ops!

The White Supremacists Ruling Class has manufactured this so called crises in order for the Middle Class to dump on and blame all of our national woes onto the wage earning, working poor -

when THEY, THE RULING CLASS ARE RESPONSIBLE for our economic, and environmental problems! Hold accountable the real perpetrators, and stop blaming the poor and the underclass for the conditions that we find ourselves due to our fucking ignorance, our gullibility, our own sick blindness to racism and xenophobia.

[4freethinking]

224. The Democratic party

in the future is going to have to make some tuff choices when it comes to illegal immigration.

I live in the southern California area and can see the social ramifications of illegal immigration. Relations between African Americans and Latinos in this area are almost at a breaking point. Their have been racially motivated murders in this area in the past few years. Large scale fights/physical combat between African Americans and Latinos in our schools and jails are common. This can't be ignored when talking about illegal immigration no matter how politically incorrect the subject may or may not be in how it relates to illegal immigration. It will take only one incident IMHO, as many others I know who live in the area, for this social time bomb to explode.

I have been talking to many African Americans in So. Cal and the vast majority are becoming more concerned about illegal immigration. It has also been stated that a very high percentage of African Americans in California voted for Prop. 187. This presents a future problem the DP is going to have to contend with: If the DP continues to take a softer line on illegal immigration they risk losing/alienating it's most loyal voting base long term. The DP needs to realize it can't have it both ways on the issue. Some African American leaders/ political figures in the southern California area have gone so far to say that they view continued illegal immigration deluding African American political power.

[doublethink]

226. I really think 'Katrina' .......

supersedes any thought of African Americans voting Republican any-time in any big numbers in the near future. Peace.

[4freethinking]

228. Who says they will vote republican?

They can just as easily not vote or support a candidate(not a republican or democrat) that supports their views by doing so takes votes away from a democratic candidate.

[Justpat]

225. Prior to 1990, people who came here as immigrants

went through a PROCESS where they were required to learn about the responsibilities of US citizenship and study to become one.
There is a DU poster who just went through this process and ceremony of citizenship.

Citizenship entails more than an economic opportunity - it also entails making the psychological shift from a citizen of
Mexico/Cuba/Somalia etc to that of a citizen of our country. The oath of citizenship swears loyalty to: "any foreign prince,
potentate, state or sovereignty" and asks the person to express an obligation to support and defend the Constitution and laws
of the US against all enemies, foreign and domestic." The person who did away with requirements for citizenship was Bush Sr.
He felt he was streamlining the immigration process by simply doing away with it. He made it so that anyone from any country
could come here without learning about our history and our laws. The fact that I do not agree with this method of immigration
does not make me a racist. It makes me worried for our future when we have millions of illegals here who have no loyalty
to our nation, have expressed no intention to obey our laws (and, yes, I know that the majority of people do obey our laws but what is wrong with demanding that as a condition of being here?) and whose idea of economic opportunity entails sending most of their
money back to their country of origin.

Our immigration policy was instituted over 200 years ago when this country was a wide open expanse with opportunity for all
brave enough to come. Why is it so hard to face that this is no longer the case? By having an immigration policy that demands
loyalty and responsibility the country is made stronger. Simply allowing millions of undocumented people to come here and
demand rights of citizenship is to give up hope of a country with a united purpose.

[Justpat]

227. The oath of citizenship renounces loyalty to any

foreign prince, potentate, state etc. Editing my own post.

[Nikia]

229. I think that companies, not immigrants should be punished

Immigrants depress wages because companies recruit them for a low wage. In some cases, the company may not be fully aware of which of their employees are illegal because some have forged documents and others are legal immigrants. In other cases, the employer may be very aware of the workers illegal status and may even use threats of reporting the worker to keep the worker in line.
Companies in the latter category should face stiff penalties.
I am not sure about companies in the former category. Perhaps it is not their responsibility to go on a witch hunt of their employees, even if they might be suspicious, and would be rather insulting to legal immigrants to have to go beyond what is legally required to prove that they have the right to work in the U.S.
Regardless, low wages for both American workers and illegal immigrants is detrimental to the U.S. economy. Low wage worker, especially those with families, qualify for government assistance in some form. Why is the U.S. government subsidizing businesses who pay a low wage by giving their workers food stamps, reduced lunches for children, or other aid because these businesses are unwilling to pay a living wage? I am not blaming low waged workers. I am blaming business.

[DavidDvorkin]

233. Silence the xenophobes!

The sooner, the better.