Let's Talk About Mexican Hypocrisy

[John Barrett]

Right now on CNN Mexican President Fox demands that he have a big say in any guest worker program that the USA implements. He wants to be a FULL partner in how we run our country and share our economy.

But let's look at Mexico and how they would handle such a situation:

1/ THEIR constitution says that Mexicans must be given priority for all jobs in their country.

2/ THEIR southern borders are kept VERY secured.

3/ THEIR constitution explicity forbids any country from meddling in the politics or affairs of their country.


To which I say to Vicente Fox stick your hypocrisy where the sun doesn't shine. Down with globalism and corporatism.

It's Americans and America first and foremost.

[paul_fromatlanta]

1. We need to keep the immigration issue focused on fairness

And not on Mexican bashing. Our country has been built on immigrations and we need immigration.

The current problem is that the border is insecure and that all those honest people who want to come here are being displaced by line jumpers.

[msgadget]

46. I saw only (deserved) Fox bashing

The immigration issue does not have a comfortable solution from either side of the political spectrum.

But, why does the term 'Mexican bashing' apply to criticism of Vincente Fox? I saw nothing against hard working people encouraged to come and seek employment here.

Vincente begs scrutiny and to be criticized at every opportunity. It is HIS responsibility to create an environment of prosperity IN Mexico but, instead, he badgers the US and Canada to open up their borders so his constituents can make and send back money to float his economy. First of all, what kind of cockeyed economic policy is that? Where's his accountability? How is such a 'plan' respectful of his people, their dignity and their family values? Pointing out his wrong-headedness is pro-Mexican, imo.

Edit to add: That's ALL I agree with. I'm not anti-immigrant. I'm anti-exploitation and, imo, Fox damned near encourages exploitation of his people.

[Bridget Burke]

274. Then why does the thread title refer to "Mexican" hypocrisy?

New to the thread. I'm sure I'll know as I continue reading.

[Peter Frank]

206. The OP has an agenda... n't

[John Barrett]

233. You're correct my friend

It's called defending the standard of living of this country and putting the interests of working Americans first. Yes these are same Americans who are being relentlessly squeezed in the "vice of globalism" by financial and corporate interests.

You've been sold a bill of goods my friend if you buy into an agenda whose mission is aiding and abetting globalism.

We either stand united on this or we will watch poverty in our country expand and we will lose our middle class.

If interested please see my post # 251 for another perspective.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=754004&mesg_id=757345

[LostinVA]

258. giggle

[countryjake]

261. Working Americans are working class...

you're the one who is buying into the myth if you think that your standard of living makes you "middle" anything. Sell your labor...you're a worker, just like the poorest picker out there. Until we realize we have more in common with those who are classed as "illegal", than we ever will with those who buy and sell-off our labor, nothing will be gained.

Your standard of living was earned by those immigrants who came before us, fighting and dying to organize into unions, and demanding the right to be respected for their labor.

If you truly are "middle class", then you, my friend, are part of the problem. How much in fair wages and benefits do you pay out to your employees?

[LostinVA]

256. Yup... like glass

[madeline_con]

300. IMO, part of the problem is language.

"Immigrants" now means anyone crossing the border to get here in some schools of thought. Whether they do so legally seems to be irrelevant.

The legality of their entry makes the law breakers indistinguishable in dialogues from those who work hard to obey the laws in order to become citizens.

Maybe the word "insurgent" can be used in this instance.

[proud2BlibKansan]

2. Um they are Americans too

So are Canadians.

Remember that continent we share? It's called North AMERICA.

[BlackHeart]

3. I wonder

do Canadians or Mexicans ever refer to themselves as Americans?

[Vincardog]

5. Mexicans refer to us as North Americans

[Fozzledick]

253. Canadians call us "damn Yanks"

As in: "You damn Yanks think you own the whole damn continent!" :eyes:

[proud2BlibKansan]

6. Well a Canadian corrected me for assuming I was an American

and he was a Canadian. So I am guessing yes.

[LWolf]

105. We recruited teachers from Canada about a decade ago.

They considered themselves "Canadian Americans," and considered it an example of U.S. self-centered arrogance to claim the title "American" solely for U.S. Citizens. They acknowledged, though, that "United Statesian" is an awkward, unlovely title. They called us "the yanks."

[BlackHeart]

115. I would expect

someone moving here from Canada to call themself a Canadian-American, much like Italian-American or African-American.

[LWolf]

229. They weren't making a permanent move.

Just here to do a job. They were still citizens of Canada, and all but 2 went home within 3 years. Other than the 2 that stayed because they married a local, none of them became citizens of the U.S..

Candadian American is what they considered themselves as citizens of Canada.

[proud2BlibKansan]

166. Thank you

A voice of reason!

[OnionPatch]

181. It is sort of awkward and

presents a problem for us even if we aren't trying to be self-centered. What do we call ourselves? In all fairness to us, "America" is actually a part of the official name of our country: "The United States of America." At least it is a part of our name and so I think that gives us a wee bit of right to call our selves Americans.

[LWolf]

231. We have as much right as any in the Americas, of course!

I think the feeling from outside the borders is that the arrogance comes from considering ourselves "THE" Americans, rather than "some" of the Americans.

[RagingInMiami]

280. It just doesn't sound to right to say

United Statesman

[Clark2008]

242. I hate being called that... "Yank."

As a Southern-American, I wince when I'm called that abroad because I'm more Irish than I ever have been Northern-American (even though I adore the liberal Yankee I married, so it's more an accuracy matter than a bias toward that region of my country).

Besides, it just sounds derogatory when someone from another country uses it, like Canooks or Limies or Krauts. :shrug: I don't use those terms, why should they toward me?

[RagingInMiami]

279. My family in South America says the same thing

They are Colombians. They are South Americans. They are Latin Americans. They are Americans.

We are North Americans. We are Americans.

[Critters2]

130. That's one Canadian out of how many?

I went to seminary with a bunch of Canadians. Lived with 'em for three years. Never heard one of 'em call hirself an American. ALWAYS referred to us as Americans.

[arcos]

73. Sometimes...

In the same way Chinese and Indonesians (for example) may ocasionally refer to themselves as "Asian".

[Adelante]

245. No

As North Americans, yes. I actually think this issue is nonsense. The name of the country is United States of "America." Its citizens are "Americans." Just as citizens of Estados Unidos de Mexico are "Mexicans." It's a little late for people of other nations to want us to be changing our name.

[Bridget Burke]

275. "Viva Mexico, in America"....

A popular song in Texas....

By the way--Mexico is in "North America"--which ends at the Isthmus of Panama.

"Central America" is a "region"--but it does not include most of Mexico--just the part south of the Isthmus of Tehuantepec.

[paul_fromatlanta]

8. My French teacher used to get mad at me for calling myself an American

But you know, I don't tell French people or Mexicans or anybody else what they are allowed to call themselves... And I don't see why they should be able to tell me what I am allowed to call myself.

Not to mention we are the only country name with "America" in the nameand that's how we choose to shorten our name.

[proud2BlibKansan]

16. Your French teacher apparently understood the complexities involved

[paul_fromatlanta]

31. Well the French do have a habit of naming other countries

But in the modern era, the people of the country select the name.

[rockymountaindem]

10. That's hardly the point

Semantics usually don't make for a good argument. I'm with the OP, I don't want Mexico telling us what to do. Our borders and border policy are the domain of *our* government.

[proud2BlibKansan]

14. No it is precisely the point

The OP doesn't even understand that America includes the countries south (and north) of our border too. If you want to argue an issue, get the terminology right.

[rockymountaindem]

20. Since we are all citizens of the United States of America

I believe it is widely understood among us that "America" refers to the country of which we are citizens, since our is the only country to use it in our name. Other uses are geographical, not political. For instance, calling our country, the United States of America simply "The United States" in this particular discussion might lead to confusion with that other "United States", the United States of Mexico. Then where would we be?

Saying something like "The United States of America does not take orders from The United States of Mexico" or the like all the time in a discussion such as this might give the impression that a porcupine has crawled up our collective ass, and I'd hate to give that impression.

[proud2BlibKansan]

26. How many Mexicans do you know?

How many Canadians?

They consider themselves Americans too.

[Jara sang]

37. What about Greenlanders and Icelanders?

Some maps put Iceland in North America others have it in Europe. What about Hawaiians? Clearly Hawaii is not a part of the North American contient. What about American Samoans? They have America in their name are they Americans? They can't vote.

[proud2BlibKansan]

52. America is a large place

It stretches from Canada and Greenland all the way to the tip of South America.

[LostinVA]

259. Proud2 is correct -- "America" does not refer to the USA

[KamaAina]

57. U.S. Out of North America!

graffito seen in a Yale men's bathroom stall circa 1984...

What about Hawaiians? Clearly Hawaii is not a part of the North American contient.

Indeed not: in fact we are considered part of Oceania, that is, Australia and the Pacific Islands (Polynesia, Melanesia and Micronesia) considered as a geographic unit.

One would have thought that would have left us outside the bounds of "manifest destiny"...

[rockymountaindem]

48. I go to the University of Toronto

If I tried to call Canadians Americans, I wouldn't have more than 2 friends.

[QC]

263. Toronto is in America.

But Beijing is not. Neither is Kathmandu. Des Moines is, though, and so is Chihuahua.

[rockymountaindem]

265. Let me clarify

If I go up to a citizen of the Dominion of Canada (who, may I remind you, is de jure a subject of Her Royal Highness Queen Elizabeth II) and say "Are you an American?", I'd wager you $500 that said Canadian would reply "No, I am a Canadian". Just ask the executives at Molson Beer:

http://home7.swipnet.se/~w-72891/CanadianClub/CCsales/ad.html

Toronto is in "North America". "America", when referring to a political entity, is an abbreviation of "The United States of America". They are two different things.

[QC]

266. I know, was just making a little fun of the pedantic and utterly pointless

little geography lectures we have received in this thread. You're quite right--most Canadians would be incensed if someone insisted on calling them Americans.

[rockymountaindem]

267. Oh, sorry, I didn't realize it was you

I enjoyed your posts in this thread.

If you liked the first video, here's another one:
http://homepage.mac.com/phil_giltner/pix/quebec.mov

[QC]

301. Thanks! Glad you enjoyed them.

Did you know that Arkansas is in America?

[ronnykmarshall]

293. Is that $500 US or $500 Canadian?

[Critters2]

295. $500 American!

Keep the change!

[kiraboo]

120. Born in Canada. Never considered myself to be an american

and never knew any other compatriot who did either. Maybe I just don't know the right people! When we criticized americans, we meant the citizens of the U.S.A. and nobody else.

[QC]

182. Yeah, but you're all wrong!

You need to be more careful about these things.

Fortunately, there's someone right here on this very thread who will be happy to correct your errors in national self-identification.

[Critters2]

183. LOL!!

I really need to go to bed!! Stop!

[Zookeeper]

131. I grew up across the border from Canada....

and I don't remember any Canadians who called themselves, "Americans."

[Critters2]

132. I guess you don't know the right Canadians....

the ones proud2belib knows.

[QC]

149. Yes, we really should consult her before speaking,

so that we don't say the wrong thing and force her to reprove us for our own benefit.

[podnoi]

226. Cindy, I disagree

I travel to Canada frequently. And I have asked this question. Canadians consider themselves "Canadians" and do not get put off by US people (how awkward) calling themselves Americans. I would say they are more concerned with our policies than our using the continental name.

[proud2BlibKansan]

239. See posts 105 and 248

[noiretextatique]

32. america and americans first, dammit!!!

except mexicans and canadians :silly:

[Maru Kitteh]

40. I don't think a silly little picky tribble over semantics nullifies the

fact that Fox is being a major-league hypocrite on this issue.

I agree with the OP, Fox can go Cheney himself, big time.

[John Barrett]

49. That's been overlooked......Thanks.

I used to think neocons were experts at deflection....but now I see it is not based upon any political ideology.

It's a tactic used to marginalize the views of others regardless of political beliefs.

The issue is pretty simple....AGENDAS not ideology.

My agenda is simple. I want the best for our country ..... call it AMERICA...USA...whatever turns you on.

There is nothing in it for me period....as there is with our politicians, unions, churches, Bush, educators, businesses, illegals, etc. that are pushing pushing pushing. Yes there is something for their benefit, but be assured it screws many Americans...accept it or not.

[redphish]

11. The immigration issue is a delicate one for those on the blue side.

On the one hand, there are many people that should be welcomed into this country and given the opportunity to become productive American citizens. On the other hand, our borders are insecure and the processing of illegal immigrants is a joke. Our government needs to focus on both the security AND the processing sides of the equation. A much as some immigration activists would like us to ignore it, there are a lot of people entering this country that do not deserve to be citizens of this country. The bush policy of putting up a fence and hoping the problem will go away is as big a joke as the Maginot line was for France. The Democratic Party must come up with clear policies that address all aspects of the immigration issue fairly.

[Zookeeper]

134. Well said, redphish. It certainly is a touchy subject...

on DU.

[Clarkie1]

214. I agree with that. n/t

[enlightenment]

28. Semantics aside, Mexico is actually in

Central, or Meso, America. Geography wise . . . but I get your point!

[proud2BlibKansan]

33. Good

I just find it incredibly arrogant that WE think we are Americans and they aren't.

[John Barrett]

41. PLEASE - May I Explain Something?

We are Americans in the USA and they are Americans in Mexico. We run our country by our Constitution and they run theirs...

That is unless you believe that corporations should run all the countries as one to their benefit?

[proud2BlibKansan]

55. Explain this from your OP:

It's Americans and America first and foremost.

[John Barrett]

59. What's To Explain?

If your name was John Smith and you said the John Smith family, first and foremost, it would be expected. Look after and protect your own family first in its needs. Once that is taken care of then care about others. It's straight forward common sense behavior to me.

I'm American and I support policies that aim to improve the standard of living of all Americans first and foremost. I don't support policies that make corporations like Wal-Mart first and foremost, or Mexico first and foremost.

Hope that explains my ideology and hopefully it agrees with yours.

[proud2BlibKansan]

62. If you support policies that improve America

then you are talking about Mexico too, since it is also in America.

[John Barrett]

64. Sorry ....Wrong Again

Mexico is not America and never has been. Quit trying to deflect and concern yourself with the issues.

[proud2BlibKansan]

68. You must not know any Mexicans

They consider themselves Americans.

Get your rhetoric right. It affects your credibility.

[Name removed]

135. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jim Sagle]

142. His credibility is fine, yours is deader than Biden's presidential run.

[proud2BlibKansan]

168. LOL you are defending

a freeper.

[Jim Sagle]

169. And you know this how?

[Name removed]

171. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Critters2]

174. Are you refering to me?

[ulysses]

86. "We are Americans in the USA and they are Americans in Mexico."

-- you, post #41

[John Barrett]

90. Whatever

If it makes you feel good then say it.

[ulysses]

92. I quoted you!

:D You're funny.

[proud2BlibKansan]

170. Not really THAT funny

Only in a sick twisted way. :)

[me b zola]

123. Huh, but parts of the US were Mexico....

...until we stole it and then stole the land that the wealthy Mexican-American land owners ranched. I'm just sayin'.

[Zookeeper]

139. But, most of the U.S. never "belonged" to Mexico or Spain...

yet Fox believes he has the "right" to encourage his citizens to move anywhere in the U.S. illegally, work for wages that undercut U.S. citizen's jobs and have them send their money back to Mexico to prop up his corrupt administration. And he is outraged that anyone has a problem with this.

[LostinVA]

257. You're wrong -- it is considered part of America

And, we are the ones concerned with the issues, not concerned with seeing how long we can strew the memes around....

LIke fish in a barrel...

[izzybeans]

128. People in Uruguay are also Americans and...and...and...

there is this whole big land mass, two of them in fact, seperated by only a human made canal.

[Critters2]

133. So do we have that cleared up now?

The grown-ups are trying to discuss important issues.

[pitohui]

79. central america is part of north america

so that is not really much of an argument

there are two continents -- north/central america is one commonly called north america, and of course south america

[enlightenment]

106. True; I tend to refer to them separately

when discussing history -- for clarity's sake. However, my bad -- in the landmass sense you are absolutely correct!

What's where (and there is a foul grammatical construction) pretty much depends on how you're looking at it -- physically, historically, sociologically, politically, etc.

[Toucano]

208. Well perspective aside, there are all sorts of definitions that

are fairly concrete and can't really be changed.

If I'm in California, I can't refer to Deleware as the Far East or Tennessee as the Middle East. It just isn't done. :)

The continent of North America begins at the Columbia-Panama boarder and extends north to the Arctic Archipelago and Greenland.

Other descriptions like Anglo-America, Central America, etc. are subsets that may be political, social, cultural or economic and those distinctions may be useful for purposes of discussion.

Since Mexico and Central America have language, cultures, and economies more similar to South America, it's easy to be lazy and begin to think of the USA and Canada (Anglo-America) as North America. Especially when you're in the USA, the 48 contiguous states seem very distinct.

[enlightenment]

249. Hmm?

I don't recall referring to the US and Canada as North America -- I suggested that there are occasions to refer to the area that include the nation/state of Mexico to the north and the nation/state of Panama to the south as Central or Meso America.

So we agree, yes? If I am talking about physical geography, that area is part of the North American continent. If I am discussing history or archaeology, it becomes Meso-America -- more accurately, it is defined by whatever social/cultural or political entities it encompassed during the period of time under discussion. As does remainder of North America and South America.

What is lazy is to conflate the physical fact (the landmass) with its geo-political divisions, when the discussion concerns the divisions that humans have made (rather arbitrarily) on the landmass.

[Toucano]

270. Of course.

That's a very good way to think of it.

I wasn't calling you lazy, of course, I was just referring to the habitual way of thinking that affects discussions about topics like this.

[enlightenment]

297. And I didn't think you were directing the comment at me --

I was finding the relentless pendulum swing of the discussion a tad annoying and that feeling infiltrated my post.
Please pardon my crankiness.

[Toucano]

304. Not a problem. n/t

[John Q. Citizen]

175. No, Mexico is part of North America. Central America starts at the

Southern border of Mexico and extends through the ithmus of Panama.

I'm a geographer.

Main Entry: Me·so·amer·i·ca
Pronunciation: "me-zO-&-'mer-i-k&, "mE-, -sO-
Usage: geographical name
the parts of S N. America that were occupied by advanced peoples during pre-Columbian times
- Me·so·amer·i·can /-k&n/


A little enlightenment for you enlightenment!

edited for the spelling (but not for geography)

[proud2BlibKansan]

178. Now why did you have to go and bust their talking point

with some pesky ole facts?

:rofl:

[John Q. Citizen]

184. I just couldn't stop myself....

[Critters2]

186. Well, if we're correcting irrelevant facts

You misspelled "border"

[QC]

190. My grandparents used to have a boarder.

But one day he groped Aunt Pearl in the kitchen, so he had to move out.

[Critters2]

193. Now THAT's what I call irrelevant!

[QC]

195. It was very relevant for Aunt Pearl, though.

She was never quite the same after that.

[John Q. Citizen]

191. You got me. I'll go back and correct it.

[enlightenment]

250. So the Aztec, Toltec, Mixtec, Olmec, etc., etc.

Did not occupy that part of S. N. America, John Q.?

Where the heck were they, then?

I'm an historian.

We call it, broadly, Meso-America, particularly when talking about the ancient civilizations that peopled that portion of the landmass at that point in time -- as we refer to the ancient peoples to the north of that as the desert Southwest cultures (Hohokam, Anasazi, Pueblo, etc.).

Pedantic? Hell, yes -- and different from your description. But it's all hair-splitting and off-topic for this discussion, in any case.

Oh -- thank you for the actual definition. I'll add it to my lecture (one more thing they'll have to write down (evil chuckle . . .)!

[John Q. Citizen]

251. From the Central Plateau to the Guatemala Highlands, the Yucatan,

and down into Honduras, roughly.

La Mejica, (The Aztec) began in the in the Desert Southwest and migrated over a number of years down to the Central Plateau where they became one of the last great Mesoamerican cultures, founding Tenochtitlan in the valley of Mexico. The term Mesoamerica refers to human geography as opposed to physical geography.

Yes, it's only tangentially related to the OP, yet I posted long after the discussion had veered from the original.

Central America is a physical geographic description which excludes Mexico.

Give those student hell!

[enlightenment]

268. Thanks again -- one more question:

can you point me to the study that shows the Aztec came out of the desert southwest? I've seen it suggested, but not proven.

And you can bet I'll give the students what for -- especially this week (101, the Constitution and Bill of Rights. yee hah!)

[John Q. Citizen]

271. My source for that is the book

The Hummingbird and the Hawk: Conquest and Sovereignty in the Valley of Mexico 1503-1541 (Torchbooks TB1898) (Paperback)
by R. C. Padden

It's a great book that traces the orgins of the Mejica empire on through the conquest.


And then there is this: http://www.indians.org/welker/nahuatl.htm

"The Náhuatl Language of the Aztecs

The Aztecs spoke a language called Náhuatl (pronounced NAH waht l). It belongs to a large group of Indian languages which also include the languages spoken by the Comanche, Pima, Shoshone and other tribes of western North America. The Aztec used pictographs to communicate through writing. Some of the pictures symbolized ideas and other represented the sounds of the syllables."

[enlightenment]

296. Thank you John Q., I appreciate it.

Just checked my library catalog -- I'll give Padden a whirl!

[John Q. Citizen]

303. You are welcome.

[Adelante]

247. Mexico is in North America

Geography wise.

[Critters2]

248. Where have I heard that?

[Bridget Burke]

277. No, Mexico is in North America.

The continent stretches from the frozen North to the Isthmus of Panama.

"Central America" is a region stretching from the Isthmus of Tehuantepec to Panama. It's a "subset" of the continent & only includes the far South of Mexico.

"Mesoamerica" is mostly used to describe the region of high pre-Colombian cultures in North America. It includes the old Olmec sites, the territories of the Mayan city-states & extends up to Teotihuacan.

[Beausoir]

164. I learned that the hard way when I was 17.

A lovely Mexican young lady came to our school as an exchange student. She lived with us for a year.
We took an immediate liking to each other.

The FIRST thing she taught me was that "America" does NOT = USA.

Her name is Lorena and 25 years later, I still keep in contact with her.

What a beautiful soul.

[Deja Q]

225. NAFTA be why they are considered Americans.

Those lines of land clearly ensure "Canada" and "Mexico" are their own entities, despite being on the same continent conveniently named "North America".

Remember, the names are out of historical context; the "New World" and all...

[Vincardog]

4. As long as our government is controlled by foreign Corporations we have no

reason to look down our noses at anyone. Why not get back on your high horse and ride it somewhere else?

[proud2BlibKansan]

7. But I was hoping we could play with him for awhile

:popcorn:

[im10ashus]

9. Mind if I join you?

I will bring the beer and another bag of popcorn.

:popcorn: :toast: :hi:

[proud2BlibKansan]

13. The more the merrier!

Oh, you ARE American, aren't you? This is an exclusive club. LOL

[im10ashus]

15. LOL!

I am not sure anymore. Let's see. Did my ancestors come here legally? I guess I would have to take a look at the laws at that time, but, they did sneak over in the galley of ship from Ireland. They must be dug up and prosecuted! :-)

[proud2BlibKansan]

18. So did mine!

Maybe they were shipmates!!

Hell yeah, you can party with me :) :woohoo:

[im10ashus]

22. That's so hilarious.

:woohoo:

Erin Go Bragh!

[RB TexLa]

148. I had at least one who did make the trip hidden in the bottom of the boat

He was caught once he got here and guess what!! Handed a gun and sent to fight in a war he knew nothing about. I'm waiting for the current wave of thought to get to the point people are saying those of us who descended from illegal immigrants should have to leave. :scared:

[proud2BlibKansan]

173. Oh I am sure that's coming

I guess we better start organizing an underground railroad, 21st century style.

[John Q. Citizen]

196. What about all those Africans who were forced into being illegal

immigrants?

They didn't need or want a job here, but at the time they couldn't find any Americans to do plantation work. So they were forced to come. Now, people want to come and work, but they can't?

Make up your minds, people!

[John Barrett]

23. It's Easy - BUSH Likes It So It Must Be Good - LOL

If BUSH and corporate America likes it, I don't. The Chamber of Commerce and others are working hard to assure that they get a continued stream of cheap labor. If you think they are on your side better think again.

I don't look down on anyone. Mexico has their country and we have ours. I don't enter their country uninvited and don't expect them to do likewise in our country. We have immigration laws and they have theirs, but apparently they don't respect ours. They do nothing for their economy so that their citizens have a better life. Instead they send them north so that they can send dollars home and further increase our already HUGE trade deficit.

Vicente Fox tells us to do it their way, when if the situation was reversed you can see what their constitution says.

This whole issue is about globalism, corporatism and loss of US sovereignty. If Bush is pushing this issue, I can assure you that there's nothing in it for average Americans. It's all about more profits for big business as our American standard of living goes down the tubes.

[John Barrett]

70. To REPEAT...I accept.

OK...I accept, but will not EVER agree with some in the Democratic Party or Republican Party that buy into a pro-globalist society/economy that brings our country, America/USA, down to the level of a third world country so that corporations can earn more profits.

[John Q. Citizen]

200. Let's kick out the corporation first!

[John Q. Citizen]

199. Any US citizen can just drive or walk into Mexico any old time

they choose. I've done it many times. You don't need an invitation, honest.

[Moochy]

240. Corporate Citizens Too!

"Any US citizen can just drive or walk into Mexico any old time"

US-based & transnational corporate citizens do it all the time.

[RagingInMiami]

282. Not even a passport

[AX10]

12. I agree. Foreign leaders have no right to tell us how to...

run our government, just as we have no right to tell foreign governments how to run their countries.

[proud2BlibKansan]

35. But when they have a cruel dictator,

we can invade them and impose democracy.

[Critters2]

136. No one here has advocated that

If you're trying to pick a fight with freepers, it would be easier if you went to their site.

[Name removed]

163. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Critters2]

165. I was about to ask you to do that

Really. My next post was going to be:

"Do me a favor. Put me on ignore."

You say it like it's a bad thing.

(And I'm not sure I believe you anyway)

[Critters2]

167. No, I've worked long and hard against the war

I'm a strict, religious pacifist. And, as I've said, NO ONE HERE has said anything in support of the war. I'm guessing it's just another silly red herring to help you avoid a rational discussion...like your whole "Mexico is America" canard.

[Redstone]

17. Oh, sure, fuck the Mexicans. How DARE THEY want to have a say in

an issue that affects them so profoundly? They're just another group of those brown people, so they'll do what we tell them to, and like it. Right?

Hope your Granite Chiclet tastes good.

Redstone

[proud2BlibKansan]

21. Granite Chiclet!

ROFLMAO

:rofl:

[Redstone]

27. I guess that's not a meme yet. I thought it would be after I first

used it about six months ago. Feel free to spread it around, and remember who invented the term.

Redstone

[proud2BlibKansan]

29. Will do!

:rofl:

[Kolesar]

34. who said anything about skin color?

[QC]

43. Nobody, but racebaiting is a popular way to silence discussion

of immigration around here. There is only one acceptable position on the issue, you know, and anyone who doesn't share it is obviously a racist. Therefore, there is no need for discussion, and a small but loud clique here is determined that there will be none.

[Kolesar]

47. We learned that in Communications Class. Throw in a "hot word" and

Kaboom! :nuke:

[Critters2]

138. It's true

I discovered just alst night that I am a racist, because I believe workers should be paid a living wage. I'm still a bit puzzled, but it must be true. A REAL democrat said so.

[ThomasNewton]

228. Thanks QC n/t

[John Barrett]

38. This Is About Racism and Unfairness Against Americans

This is about our country, our standard of living, and about poor Americans that are getting screwed by "elists".

BTW I call them "elitists" because that's how an unskilled American seeing his standard of living being eroded by every illegal whom he/she has to compete with for a job, considers those who tout this "brown people" bull crap that you and others try and push as an excuse.

When as the last time that you personally faced competition for a job by an illegal?

Redstone...by chance are you Sumner Redstone, the multi billionaire who can well afford to marginalize Americans that are just looking to make a fair living and survive in THEIR country?

[im10ashus]

45. This is about a republican bill that will support the big corporations.

eom

[John Barrett]

61. Agreed

It's a bill about making more money for those who have and about LESS money for those AMERICANS who don't....while some are not impacted at all sit on their elitist butts claiming it is about racism.

[im10ashus]

65. It's criminalizing humanity.

This is a republican bill that is quickly becoming a wedge issue with democrats. Rove must love all of you who are pissed at these immigrants for no reason other than your own paranoia. Nice job. :eyes:

[proud2BlibKansan]

71. Amen

Couldn't agree more.

[John Barrett]

78. Too Bad...It shouldn't Be a Democratic Wedge Issue

If the Democratic Party still represented American workers as the Party did for three-quaters of a century I wonder what the political situation would now be in this great country.

Would the Democrats now be in power, and would the map of the USA be predominantly blue, would Americans once again be voting their economic interests, and would we be having this discussion now?

It's cut and dry to me. Either you favor the rich "have mores", the corporate interests that control this country, or you favor American workers. There's nothing fuzzy there.

Once we have a country that isn't sliding into "third worldism" without a middle class as we are now, then we can once again help others, as we did in much of the 20th century.

[im10ashus]

101. Then with that argument...

shouldn't you be supporting the plight of the immigrant worker? You favor American workers. These people are working for a living. Not selling drugs or arms. :shrug:

[proud2BlibKansan]

76. Keep on calling them 'illegals'

and you will get a chilly reception from me and a few others you have met in this thread.

As far as your "their country' remark, you must be forgetting (or maybe you don't know) that much of the southwest USA WAS Mexico until we took it away from them. And much of the rest of the USA was Native American land until we stole it from them.

We have no business being all high and mighty on this issue. It just makes us look like hypocrites.

[Critters2]

140. Yeah, you've mentioned that

It's a silly argument, no matter how many times you repeat it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

161. And go on ignoring history

Seems to be working well for you.

[Critters2]

162. Yeah, so far so good

Thanks for caring

[Zookeeper]

154. Spain stole Mexico from the native people...

we could play that game forever.

[Critters2]

155. It's true

Someone tried that on me last night. I pointed out that most of this country was Louisiana Purchase land, so we should all be speaking French. I was then told that THAT land belonged to the natives, who only learned French from the oppressors. To which I offered one word..."Cortez".

[Redstone]

82. No, I'm not him. I do make a lot of money, though, so winter lettuce at

eight bucks a head wouldn't bother me.

I'd gladly pay that if that were the price of having American pick the lettuce, and get paid a fair wage for doing so. and would not complain about doing it, because it wouel be good for my country.

Would you? How many other Americans would, or would they bitch about it? Would they support fair wages for their fellow Americans only to the point where they would no longer have cheap fresh vegetables in the winter?

I'd pay the price. But I have the luxury of being able to, so that takes me out of this discussion. Would the AVERAGE American be willing to pay triple the current cost of vegetables in order to support a decent wage for other Americans?

I suspect they would not. And that's a shame.

Redstone

[John Barrett]

88. I Buy American and Support Americans

I buy American cars and make every attempt at supporting US manufacturing and farming and rarely if ever go in Wal-Mart. It would be a bargain at $8 a head if I saw Americans making a fair wage which should be the way our economy works.

Wal-Mart is an example of a process similar to the "support guest workers or illegal immigration" where we as a country are in a race to the bottom.

If it happens it won't be because I haven't attempted to do my part to keep us and the middle class afloat. Too bad the Democratic Party hasn't seen fit to make that their mission, instead of the hodge-podge of policies that represents the Party.

[Redstone]

95. Well, good. I'm glad to hear that you'll pay extra to support your

beliefs. How many other Americans do you suppose will do so? How many CAN AFFORD to do so?

We don't HAVE to shop at Wal-Mart. But we'd never condemn anyone who does, because they may not have the luxury of being able to make that choice.

And the Americans who work at Wal-Mart (who do so because they have to, so I'd never insult them for soing so) do not get to have the luxury of saying "I'll pay extra for vegetables if they're picked by Americans." So do we condemn them? Not me.

(PS: A Honda Accord is an American car. So is a Toyota Camry.)

Redstone

[QC]

125. "I do make a lot of money"

Do you think that maybe that shapes how you see the world?

[Critters2]

141. I already do buy locally grown foods gorwn and produced by those I know

I'm willing to pay the price, and would gladly pay more. Better paid workers would improve the economy and everyone's purchasing power. As opposed to underpaid workers depressing the economy.

[proud2BlibKansan]

176. I am with you on that thought, Redstone

Just don't mess with the price of coffee, okay? :)

[Critters2]

179. You buy cheap coffee?

Do you know what that does to brown people in Central America? They're Americans, too, ya know.

Me, I only buy fair trade, organic, bird safe coffee. More expensive but better all around.

But if cheap coffee is what matters to you...

[QC]

188. My coffee is grown by a Nicaraguan collective of differently-abled

Marxist performance artists. They're also vegans.

The coffee's expensive and really not very good, but my sense of moral rectitude increases with every cup!

[Critters2]

192. ROFLMAO!!!

Moral rectitude...that's what matters! You're a true progressive!



:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Bridget Burke]

278. So you accept the Republican bill 100%?

That is what sparked the protests, you know.

[RagingInMiami]

284. Speaking of Brown People

You know how many Americans got computer-related degrees in the 1990s because computer jobs were going to be in such abundance in the future?

Well, those jobs are abundent all right. They went to a bunch of Brown People in India and Pakistan.

[Balbus]

69. Wow, you were real quick to bring skin color into this...

Why is that the first thing that pops into your head when talking about immigration?

[Jim Sagle]

143. If they tombstone him they can tombstone me too. Goddammit.

[Zookeeper]

150. This "Brown people" card you and yours keep playing...

is getting really old...it's simplistic and entirely too easy.

Perhaps because I'm a rust belt native, I'm much more concerned with creating opportunities in education and employment for African-Americans. The fact that wages are dropping (due to this surplus of cheap labor) and labor unions are being destroyed, means that there are even fewer opportunities for Black U.S. Citizens (I wouldn't want to say, "Americans," would I?). I also know poor whites from chronically economically depressed areas who missed the boat by being born too late for a Union job that could have helped them better their circumstances. What do you think the rural meth epidemic is all about?

Frankly, I think this attitude that Mexicans should be able to come here illegally because they're "brown," is just bizarre. It's racist to assume that someone is good and entitled just because they have brown skin, instead of white.

And as far as Mexicans having a say in U.S. immigration policy...they shouldn't...THEY AREN'T U.S. CITIZENS! (Do Canadians get a say in our immigration policy?)

[Critters2]

152. Exactly

if ANYONE is adversely affected by illegal immigration, it's African Americans. Ignoring that seems racist to me.

[oasis]

19. Fox is offering a solution. If you have a better idea, let's have it.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[K8-EEE]

209. Solution To Fox: Stop Exploting The Workers Of Mexico

If they were given a fair shake there, they wouldn't come here. They have cities with half a million people living in the US. Mexcan politicians come HERE to campaign. It's nuts!! This is the result of a LARGE amount of the resources going to a FEW families at the top of the socio-economic heap and no regard for Unions or working people. In short, Bush's ideal.

Anybody who resents Mexican workers coming here should hope that they become the next country to vote in leftist leaders, like Venezuela, Uruguay and Chile. That would better solve the problem than any stupid bill ShrubCo could come up with.

[UTUSN]

24. All governments have a role in advocating for their nationals in other cou

countries. And FOX kept Mexico out of joining Shrub's Iraq Attack because it was a violation of sovereignty.

[0007]

30. Argh!!

[Minnesota Libra]

36. Oh but don't you understand, it doesn't matter how Mexico handles.........

.....its own border matters. We are supposed to keep our own borders completely porous so we can be seen as "fair" and "inclusive".:sarcasm:

Hey, now I'm all for the US being a "melting pot" but what some people don't seem to understand is that Fox (President of Mexico) is PURPOSELY and SYSTEMATICALLY emptying the streets of Mexico onto American streets. Fox distributes maps on how to get through checkpoints along the way, etc. This reminds me so much of the "Cuban Boat People" and Castro emptying out jails etc sending them all to America and laughing the entire time. As I said, I'm all for America continuing to be a melting pot but within reason, and DEFINITELY not to our own detriment.

[radio4progressives]

50. oh god... don't believe everything the CM is reports on this ok?

please please please... Question what is reported on this and then challenge your own conclusions.

[Minnesota Libra]

56. I also mix in first hand experiences for realistic not idealistic view nt

[Elwood P Dowd]

39. Fox and the wealthy ruling class is simply exporting their problem

rather than doing something about it.

Here in the south, the standard of living for blue collar working people is falling like a rock. The immigrants make it even worse. Construction and landscape workers who use to make a decent wage have been replaced by immigrants who will work for 5 bucks an hour ($3.50 an hour under the table). In many areas black males have a 30-40 percent unemployment rate. They come by my house all the time asking if I need any yard work done.

I wonder what will happen to these immigrants when the housing bubble bursts and the economy tanks? Most of their jobs here are in construction, landscaping, paving, and such.

Another thing I wonder about: What would be the actual unemployment figure for American citizens since millions of immigrants are counted among the 140 million listed as employed?

[Kolesar]

51. Last I heard, the immigrants are not so much desperate as opportunistic

By that I mean they can do a bit better going to the United States and looking for work. I don't mean to say they are preying.

[proud2BlibKansan]

77. The immigrants I work with are pretty desperate.

I would also love to hear your ideas of how they can do a "bit better going to the United States and looking for work". What do you propose they do? Hire limos to bring them here?

[Dunedain]

102. I think its implied by their presence

Someone does indeed have to be pretty desperate to travel thousands of miles for work.
But isn't the whole point of immigrating based on the premise of a "better going"?

[proud2BlibKansan]

236. Maybe we are interpreting "better going" differently

:shrug:

[Kolesar]

112. Quit being a smart ass

Read the fucking newspaper.

I was trying to start a discussion based on reporting I heard on NPR

I am sure there is some other god damn forum like yahoo where you can go pick on people and pick a fight if you want to .

[proud2BlibKansan]

185. Aye aye captain

I's so sorry. Noboby told me you were the boss today.

[Kolesar]

219. typing prodigiously on the internet does not count as activism either

snazzy siglines notwithstanding

I see you cannot resist mocking me like a smarmy creep

[proud2BlibKansan]

235. Well if you act like a smarmy creep

that's what you'll get in return.

[Kolesar]

302. you're the sarcastic flame baitor

limos

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=754004&mesg_id=754614

[Zookeeper]

187. I would propose that they rise up and demand justice...

from their own government. Work to make their own country better and not just by coming here and sending money back home (which doesn't change anything as far as corruption in Mexico).

I've lived in California and worked with Mexicans. I know Mexican citizens living illegally in Minnesota. They consider themselves Mexican. They aren't particularly interested in being part of the larger community here, hate the weather and really maintain the attitude of being transient. Learning to speak English (we're talking Minnesota here, not Arizona) is not high on their list of priorities. They don't care whether or not they are undercutting local workers. I don't BLAME them, but I don't know why I should care more about them than Minnesotans (black, white, Native American and legal immigrants from Somalia, Ethiopia, and Laos) who are falling farther down the economic ladder because wages are being driven down.

[proud2BlibKansan]

238. No one is asking you to care more about one group than another

It's a big country. There's room for all of us.

[Zookeeper]

243. I'm not sure that someone who loses a job...

to a Mexican citizen who is here illegally would agree with you. Yes, this situation is ultimately the fault of greedy corporate profit-mongers, needs to be changed, all of us DUers seem to be in agreement on that fact. But, the reality is that this problem is happening in real time, it's not theoretical. I think we do have to make some choices.

BTW, it's 2006, not 1806 or 1906. Our country ISN'T as big as it used to be. Citizens have right to give some thought to and plan how to use our nation's natural resources (land, water, energy). We can't do that adequately without control over how many new people are entering the U.S.

[Bridget Burke]

281. Gosh, what a novel concept!

The leftist candidate for President is currently leading. However, the last Leftist who was predicted to win had 1988 the election stolen from him in broad daylight. (That was Cuauhtémoc Cárdenas, of course. But you already knew that.)

Mexicans ARE supporting him in order to get better lives. Would you prefer they begin a bloody war instead? Like the 1910 Revolution that killed about a million Mexicans? (And sent many more across the Border.)

From 200 to 300 students & workers died in the Tlatelolco Massacre of 1968. Compare that to the 4 who died at Kent State & tell me Mexicans don't know how to struggle.

[Zookeeper]

290. I just reread my post...

I didn't say that Mexicans don't know how to struggle.

And as for your sarcastic "Cuauhtemoc Cardenas" comment, you're right I don't know much about that particular election, although I'm certainly aware that the U.S. government has suppressed democratically elected Leftist governments in South and Central America. So, are you saying that because they've fought and lost, they should give up on the idea of changing their own homeland and just move to the U.S.?

So, do you know the details of the struggles of the Sioux and Chippewa people of the Upper Midwest? There is more to this country than the Southwest and California.

[Bridget Burke]

292. The Mexicans have not given up the fight.

Quite a few Mexicans are politically active. In Mexico.

I'm NOT saying they fought & lost. The fought, lost (sometimes) & continue to fight. Yes, many have moved up here. But Mexico is a big country.

I would be sure to learn more about the Sioux & Chippewa before condescendingly instructing them how to go about their struggle.

[Zookeeper]

294. This thread has become very, very long...

but if you go back, you will see that I was originally responding to a very snarky, flippant post.

I'm not instructing Mexicans on how to go about their struggle, it's actually not that high on my list of priorities. But, I do have a right to care about the well-being of American workers (of all races), in MY community. I do not see the huge influx of Mexican citizens into Minnesota benefitting local citizens (check out the labor union struggles at Hormel, those one time, livable wage, union jobs are now held by underpaid Mexicans.) And, unlike the Southwest, there is no historical connection or claim to be made by Mexicans to the upper midwest. Mexican citizens are in Minnesota for JOBS and to send money "home."

BTW, I do know Mexican citizens who are here illegally. I don't report anyone, I don't want to see the Rethuglican bill pass, but I don't have to like it.

[John Barrett]

84. All They Want Is A Fair Shake

There is a vociferous crowd on here that believes they are right. They believe we need to help more illegals, and poor Americans that are being screwed are wrong for wanting a fair shake from our country.

[proud2BlibKansan]

194. Nobody is advocating ignoring poor Americans

How about a fair shake for ALL? Not just those born here in the USA, but those who immigrate here too. The Democratic party I belong to is inclusive and champions rights for ALL, not only the ones with green cards.

[Zookeeper]

172. And what would the actual unemployment figures be for....

American citizens if we counted the ones that have just given up on ever finding a decent paying job?

[Warpy]

42. I'd change that last sentence

"Americans first IN AMERICA!!!"

This whole thing is corporate bullshit. They want to beggar the American people by driving wages down so far we'll have a majority homeless! They don't have a FUCKING CLUE that they're slitting their own corporate throats by destroying the consumer economy!

Protectionism NOW. Save American jobs NOW. Punish offshoring NOW. Living wages NOW.

Anything else is simply unacceptable from either party.

[John Barrett]

97. "THEY" Don't Grasp It....yet.

That's what "they" (the corporate elite and I hesitate to call them the liberal elite but I will) don't seem to grasp. Once we've lost the middle class to outsourcing for cheap labor, and insourcing (guest worker) for cheap labor, we've lost our country and the comfortable standard of living that many enjoyed.

This is not the same ole same ole anti-immigration debate that has been perpetuated in America for a 100 years, it is about a new world where corporations are forcing sovereign nations to compete with each other for their favors, much as we've seen in the USA with cities competing with other cities, to build ever larger stadiums at taxpayer expense to host their football teams and to be able pay players millions. Or as another example taxpayers subsidizing Wal-Mart with economic development if they build a distribution center.

Yet some try and divide and falsely say it is about "Browns"

[raccoon]

286. Well, you've certainly shown your true colors now...

"I hesitate to call them the liberal elite but I will)"

The liberal (LMAO) elite doesn't care a rat's ass about anyone outside their small circle.

How do YOU define liberal? Is it anybody who thinks differently than you do?

[radio4progressives]

44. This is both silly and pathetic..

In the not so distant past, I've heard it said repeatedly, over and over again, that most so called "libruls" are as just as white supramists as any so called "racists" right winger...

I've argued indignantly that such a charge was a slap in the face of the very ideals of Liberalism, and how dare such an egregious charge be made!

I would never ever have dreamt that any self respecting Liberal would resort to Nationalistic reactionarism. Not ever!

But ever since this so called "Illegal Immigration" has been brought to national attention (vis a vis Right Wing racist zenophobic and Nationalistic media stu-punditry) DU has been awash of this reactionarism on a level I would never have imagined seeing on a Liberal blog site.

Nationalism has always been anathema to Liberalism, and so is xenophobia and racism. I fear that my peers may have been correct after all, and that is pathetic and shameful testimony.

[rockymountaindem]

53. Nationalism and liberalism aren't mutually exclusive

For instance in Russia, the official Communist party as well as the far-right party both use similar nationalist rhetoric. In the Spanish Civil War, most of the leftist movements, ranging from what one might call today "Christian democrats" all the way left to anarchists despised the foreigners from Germany and Italy who aided the fascist cause almost as much if not more than Franco's Spanish followers.

Wanting a liberal domestic policy does not preclude wanting to put American citizens ahead of foreign nationals and trans-national corporations.

[radio4progressives]

60. You're right. We have a Black Nationalist Movement here in the U.S. and

it's Leftist. I should have said Right Wing Nationalism..

On Edit. Leftist Nationalism isn't necessarily Liberalism in contemporary times - though i think America's founding fathers were certainly Radical Liberals, since they were Radical Revolutionaries....

by definition, that makes them radical leftists, i suppose.

[redphish]

54. There IS a problem with immigration in the US.

(please read my post above). Democrats should be able to discuss this issue without being labeled racist or xenophobic. The last thing that is helpful in finding ways to fairly resolve the problems related to the way our government handles the issue of immigration is name calling.

[Kolesar]

58. thank you ... eom

[OKNancy]

66. Thank you

Illegal immigration is a threat to the Democrat's natural constituency: the blue collar worker and the union worker. It has to be discussed in a rational manner and maybe a humane solution can be worked out for the immigrants and the American worker who is getting screwed by cheating businesses.

[radio4progressives]

75. I agree with this point.

what is happening is a lot of piling on of reactionary speech against the "illegals" ... placing blame on THEM as opposed to the Policies and the Policy Makers who created the conditions that we are ALL subjected to and are victims of.

In other words, the evil doers, the true Culprits of this problem is the Ruling Class (all that implies from heads of state to heads of Multi-National corporations) who were given the gift of John Negroponte's brain child: NAFTA Agreement, which he managed to make Clinton force Congress to pass.

However the problems existed long before NAFTA ever existed.. it was just made far more worse, and more difficult to ever deal with the issues because of it. Putting the toothpaste back into that tube is going to be interesing.

But people really need to know, that we are all slaves of the same masters, and once we get through our heads we will stop blaming the "illegals".

One day, we too may end up becoming "illegals", if this fascist state gets any worse.

[Zookeeper]

201. DUers seem to be perfectly aware of the greedy corporate...

profit-mongers who are at the root of this issue. But, that doesn't change the reality of a union worker, carpenter or landscaper who is replaced by someone willing to work for a third of their wage.

So, imagine you are replaced in such a way....will you just say, "Shucks, I'm really mad at John Negroponte and the members of the ruling class!"

[John Barrett]

98. Why Bash Americans?

That is a core issue and I can't understand the bashing and claims of racism and ridicule because some of us call United States citizens Americans. There are many needy American citizens and I put their needs ahead of Mexico's....sorry. The OP discussed Mexico's hypocrisy on immigration....and that should still be a core concern.

The issue we should be focusing on is what is going to be best for this country, not what is going to benefit George Bush, Vicente Fox, the Chamber of Commerce, or General Electric. Corporate interests in this country have exorbitantly benefitted over the last 25 years since Reagan was President. It's time to reverse the pendulum and it is going to have to start with giving American workers leverage with wages.

[QC]

99. But it can't be discussed in a rational manner

so long as people loudly insist that everyone who does not share their position is a racist, and that's the usual course of immigration discussions at DU.

[OKNancy]

108. I've been thinking about this for a while

especially when I read DUers go on and on about how their job, their white collar job has been outsourced to India. I've read a lot of snotty comments about people from India here and how terrible it is that their jobs are in jeopardy because they are being moved overseas.
These same white collar workers don't seem to have the same feelings about their blue collar brothers and sisters who are threatened by illegal immigration and "insourcing".

It's all about whose ox is being gored. Their heart bleeds all over the place when the tech people lose their jobs, but there seems to be a lack of understanding about the construction worker, the laborer, the union guy. If I didn't know better I'd think there was some elitism going on.

[QC]

114. Exactly--outsourcing and such went on for years but weren't an issue

until they affected the middle class. Then they suddenly became The Most Important Thing on Earth.

I share your suspicion that there's some elitism involved here, and I think it's gonna cost us big this fall.

[John Barrett]

117. What do you think?

What do think would be the outcome if the Democratic Party had a united position that essentially said....."we will oppose outsourcing and we will oppose insourcing via guest worker programs if it harms the standard of living of American workers".

Do you think that the Democratic candidates that took that position would take or lose votes?

Would most Americans tend to support such candidates or would they vote pro-corporate GOP?

[QC]

118. I think that returning to our roots as the workers' party would win big.

I've been hoping to see it for years, but today's discussions on DU make me wonder if it could ever happen.

[radio4progressives]

215. The Workers Party is exactly what our party should be about...

run on the platform of workers rights, and the bill of rights and the rest of it, from the workers point of view and interests in mind.

yep.. get to the core of these concerns and the rest solves itself.

[Critters2]

144. Well, first, a lot of DUers would scream bloody murder

What they'd really scream is "Racism!"

:eyes:

[QC]

153. They would shriek, "You just don't like BROWN PEOPLE!!!"

Funny, but George Bush also used the "brown people" phrase when he tried to racebait those who opposed his little adventure in Iraq. But then, he also loves to talk about "jobs Americans won't do," so maybe it's not so odd.

[johnnie]

157. The race card is played a lot here on DU

Whenever there is a discussion about anyone other than "the disgusting white man" it becomes a race issue. Or should I say that the race card is used when someone has nothing else to add to the discussion.

[QC]

159. Immigration is going to be Issue #1 this fall, but we can't discuss it

here because of a small but very vocal clique that tries to silence all discussion of any position other than theirs by accusing anyone who disagrees with them of being down on "the brown people." They've been very busy tonight.

[im10ashus]

127. The laborer and the union guy are being hit hardest by corporate America.

Not by immigrant workers picking grapes in California. We have to see this for what it is. A divisive topic for the democratic party. You'd rather we turn our back on these workers who want a fair shake?

[im10ashus]

126. It is no more an isssue now that it was 20-30 years ago.

We are playing right in to this republican meme and turning against one another. This SHOULD be about fair wages and fair and decent labor for workers.

[John Barrett]

232. Democrats' Natural Constituency

I agree so much with what you said.

The historical and natural constituency of the Democratic Party has been American workers and has been to push for policies that improves their lot, and to enlarge the middle class. Yet somewhere between JFK and LBJ the Party began to lose that priority and core mission. It could have been a natural chain of events or it could have been the shrewdness of the GOP that began to frame Democratic policies in a way that forced the Party chose between supporting workers, or supporting other issues....but the bottom line is the Party changed. As proof, we had a Democratic President that supported NAFTA, which royally screwed the unions and other Americans to the benefit of every other entity...internal and external.

Workers have lost an important advocate when we lost the Democratic Party. But the Democratic Party has lost the support of its real core base, the worker. The country used to be blue instead of red.

We must get back to our core historic principles of advocacy for American workers so that we can make this country great and prosperous and fiscally secure. Then we can once again help other peoples of the world.....but it begins with consistency of action internally. To quote Bush's words....you're either with us or against us...with "us" being American workers.

[radio4progressives]

67. Immigration has always been a problem , it isn't anything new..

skipping over the transgressions of the early colonials land grabbing and thieving - on through the mid nineteenth centry and beyond, we've had serious problems with immigration - on huge massive scales...

there is absolutely not a wit of difference in the problem that has existed over 150 plus years, to the present day. and with every mass immigration events, the same reaction is seen and the same responses are made and argued, with the exception of "terra-ists" and Illegal drugs.

absolutely nothing new.

[Raksha]

158. I think the difference is in the scale of the problem.

It's true that American workers (especially blue-collar workers) always felt threatened by the newest wave of immigrants, but we didn't have the large-scale outsourcing of white-collar and customer service jobs that we have now. Fifteen years ago, or even ten years ago, an American company having a customer service center in India was unheard of. AND we have the immigrants (legal and illegal) displacing American workers in construction jobs just like we've always had, but on an even bigger scale than before.

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[John Barrett]

103. Sorry...Liberal Means I Don't Have To Agree

Liberalism isn't marching lock step to some ideology like the neocons. I don't accept anyone telling other liberals that they aren't liberal because they don't agree on ideology.

Opposition to these guest worker programs whose only goal is to make the rich richer SHOULD BE core Democratic Party policy, that is assuming the Party wants to be consistent in supporting American workers. You can't say I support American workers on one hand, and say I support policies that will screw American workers on the other hand. That inconsistency is why blue collar American workers are voting Repub as much as Democratic. To the double latte set... put yourself in the position of those who are being hurt by these policies for a change.

Inconsistency equals lack of credibility.

[radio4progressives]

109. I neglected to make myself more clear... let me put it in another way.

when we point the finger of blame for the conditions that we are suffering, on to another group of workers for the set of conditions we are struggling with, we are in fact giving a free pass to those who are responsible in the first place - Big Business, Multi-Nationals and public officials (who crafted legislation to allow it like NAFTA)whose loyalties are only to Wall Street - not America or American Citizens.

[Critters2]

145. Well said!

:toast:

[Name removed]

237. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

244. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tritsofme]

83. How is it reactionary to wish that immigration laws be enforced?

[radio4progressives]

110. First Priority should be a Living Wage to Any Worker...

make that the law of the land... and the people who are going to get the jobs first, will naturally be Americans..

Enforce Immigration Laws? Do we even know what they are? Do you know that businesses actually RECRUITworkers in the tech industry not from Mexico, but from India and China and other places far from our shores and our borders?

[pitohui]

85. either one cares abt protecting the american worker or one doesn't

crying racism because the american worker cannot compete with slaves willing to work for pennies on the dollar and live in tents while we as americans are required to comply w. housing standards so that we can't even take the slave jobs if we wanted to...it is just plain shitty and wrong

the racist is the supporter of illegal immigration, come on, we all know it is no secret the whole purpose is to get the mexican for $3 an hour with a side helping of the black man is cheated of being given any job at all, THAT is racism, not pointing out that mexicans and all other illegal immigrants should comply w. the law or be deported

[radio4progressives]

104. workers of the world against workers of the world while the slave masters

continue to profit..

So, let's do the bidding of the slave masters, and continue continue pointing the finger of blame on other poor workers, instead of pointing to where it belongs

the issue isn't about "illegal immigration" ... It is indeed being legally able to pay low wages and no benefits .. if we managed to legistlate laws that dictated a living wage (as a minimum wage) I guarantee you, "illegal immigrants" from Mexico will NOT be the first hired.

It's because businesses (big and small) are legally able to hire "cheap labor" (read legalized slavery) wherever they can find it, rather than pay a living wage to anyone, much less an American citizen..

Today's Business have no "loyalty" to Country, theirs belongs to the almighty Dollar and they march to the drum beat and dicatates of Wall Street.


Shouldn't it be the FIRST ORDER of priorities to legislate a LIVING WAGE (as a minimum)?? Once such a legislation weree the law of the land, we'd be moving in the direction of solving the problem of mass migration as these workers prospects is severely reduced.

Also, when businesses are made by law to pay a living wage,(here in this country) that will force Mexico's hand to deal with the problem of poverty, over population and so on.

There's a lot that needs to be done in order to solve the problems that have been institutionalized for a long time. Blaming other poor people though, other workers is really missing the target and it divides people and creates hate.

That's exactly what the Ruling Class Slave Masters want to have happened. Look away from them... and let's just kill each other off with blind hatred and ignorance.

'we are after all a fungeable and expendable product'...

[Zookeeper]

211. You're right, but...

that doesn't help the person who just lost their job to someone who will do it for less money. What are American workers supposed to do while waiting for our government to legislate a living wage (with corporate funding of politician's re-election campaigns)? Although that is something to fight for, I don't think it is going to happen any time soon.

[NNN0LHI]

63. Vicente Fox is a right wing pig trying to keep his conservative party...

...in power. Fox is big buddies with Bush too. His party is down in the polls to a liberal challenger. Fox will say anything to keep his fellow right wing pigs in power. Smart Democrats don't fall for the type of flame bait put forward in the OP.

Don

[radio4progressives]

81. well put..

:thumbsup:

[Elwood P Dowd]

91. Fox gave little George a saddle for his little horsey

Little George, the manley hero according to Limbaugh, is scared shitless of horses and will never use it. However, little George does rent horses for photo ops. I once saw one walk by his favorite brush pile and that 5-year-old bale of hay.

[radio4progressives]

111. you mean in person?

:rofl:

[ulysses]

74. you have an interesting habit

of taking progressive points (opposition to corporatism) and putting them in terms of the worst of the right wing (America first). Why is that?

[radio4progressives]

80. Thomas Paine put it best

Independence is my happiness, and I view things as they are, without regard to place or person; my country is the world, and my religion is to do good.

[pitohui]

87. thomas paine didn't have a real job

i'll take his thoughts on the subject when he has spent a few years in construction or in poultry

there is no independence where employers are encouraged to hire slaves for they make slaves of all who must compete with them for jobs

[rman]

221. What, Paine had (or has?) a fake job?

Does he not have an income by virtue of his own labor?

[John Barrett]

107. You Got Me

That's the way I think. I'm patriotic, I'm pro American, I hate Bush, I hate corporatism, I'm pro-middle class. Is there something wrong with that picture?

[QC]

116. They're accusing you of being a freeper, but doing it

in an indirect way, since that's against the rules here.

[John Barrett]

119. So What Do You Think?

Hopefully there isn't a DU kool-aid. If so as a proud independent thinker, I'll be damn disappointed.

[QC]

122. Kool-Aid's not terribly popular here, but those who like it like it a lot.

In general, this is as smart a discussion board as you will find anywhere, but there are some issues that one cannot discuss rationally here. You have discovered the biggest of those issues.

[rockymountaindem]

264. I disagree

The biggest issue is either gender stereotyping or the Israeli-Arab conflict and the US role therein.

[radio4progressives]

156. not so....

i'm not doing anything of the sort, i'm sorry if i'm not able to be more clear.

blaming other workers instead of the Ruling Class where the "blame" (responsibility) should be assigned - is a very serious mistake, which hurts all workers north and south. it's a very old syndrome.
i wish we were more advanced in our collective conscienceness and reasoning (as a nation)..

i thought we would have long before now..

But the very fact that such a dangerous, incompetant idiot could even be allowed to occupy the most powerful office on the face of the earth for 1 year, not to mention 5 plus years, in light of the most incredibly regressive domestic policies put forth by this dangerous fool's party and leadership, clearly means that we as a nation have a long long long way to go - before the workers of this country understand that we should be in solidarity with the workers of the world..

The reason is because our enemy - is their enemy too.

Until the day arrives, when that single fact is clearly obvious, that it rarely (if ever) even needs to be stated - only then will there ever be real socio-economic justice and equality for any of us.

Seal up the borders, put up a multi-trillion dollar wall that goes 1000 feet above and below the ground - fortify that with a sentry gaurd outfit every 10 yards - go ahead.. but if you think that's going to be solution to the problem regarding jobs and decent pay and a decent way of life, you're fooling yourselves and you haven't really looked at the root of the problem we are struggling against.

[ronnie624]

212. Alas friend,

There are many who will not be swayed no matter how logical and well reasoned your case may be. The pull of tribalism is simply to great.

[rman]

222. You exclude the poor and the exploited both in the US and elsewhere.

That's what's wrong with that picture.

[Balbus]

89. I'm a big fan of Janet Napolitano..

and she's very wary of that hypocritical piece-of-shit named Fox. I'll trust her judgment on this.

[GRLMGC]

94. Fox is horrible

He hasn't changed anything in Mexico and it's no wonder people are leaving the country. I still think the OP reeks of xenophobia considering his other posts.

[The Straight Story]

93. How to immigrate to Mexico:

To apply for an Inmigrante Rentista visa, you must be at least 50 years old and have an established and dependable income of at least $1,000 a month, plus $80 a month for each dependent (including spouse) over 15 years old. This can be proven through Social Security records, a statement from a corporate pension fund, or evidence of a bank trust. Proof must be submitted to the Mexican Consulate nearest the retiree's home in the United States.

Once five years have passed, the Inmigrante Rentista visa may be changed to Inmigrado, which gives the right to work and to own other types of property in Mexico.

The Visitante Rentista visa is available to retired people who do not wish to immigrate. It requires less income than is required for an Inmigrante Rentista visa. The visa allows a stay of six months, renewable for three additional periods of six months each. After two years, the retired person must leave the country and begin the process again. Under this visa, multiple entrances and exits from Mexico are permissible but are taxed.

To enter Mexico, all immigrants must obtain a permit from the Secretaria de Gobernacion, Subdireccion de Inmigrantes y Inmigrados, Albaniles No. 18, Col. Morelos, C.P.15270, Mexico, DF.

Send the application through the Mexican Consulate in the area where you live, since it must be accompanied by other documents, some of them to be legalized by the consulate. Documents must be translated into Spanish, including the application. The consulate does not do translation work, although it will give advice.

http://www.retirementhavens.com/livingbetter/immigrating.html

[Critters2]

147. That sounds like a great little law they got there

Do DUers call them racist?

[The Straight Story]

160. Only on weekends :) (nt)

[kurth]

96. America is being used as a safety valve and a dumping ground

by the corrupt Mexican ruling class. Painful truth is there are not many future Einsteins among these poor illiterates, many of whom have a criminal background. We do have a need for seasonal agricultural workers, however.

Heck, it's not just Mexicans who are streaming across the border. There is a huge list of other nationalities - most notably the Arab kind.

We're like a freaking open house with a broken door. What kind of country allows MILLIONS of people to just walk across, no questions asked?

[im10ashus]

121. "What kind of country allows MILLIONS of people to just walk across"

Oh. My. God. This has become the norm here? We are now going to start bashing people because they wanted a better life? What kind of country allows people to cross the borders? America. That's who. Remember America? I know it's been a long time since we've seen any semblance of a democracy here, but try to remember. My ancestors came here for a better life. Unless you are full-blooded Cherokee or something, you should check yourself.

[magellan]

151. People are allowed to cross our borders

...as long as they do it legally. That's the law. Are we supposed to become like BushCo and say the law only applies when we think it's fair? Not me. Bush** should have worked to change the FISA law if he didn't like it. Likewise we should work to change immigration laws and hiring practices we don't like.

[imlost]

177. Are you an Einstein? NOT!

You sound very paranoid and worried about your job.

How could these poor illiterates take your job? Where are your stats for them having criminal backgrounds?

so sad, so sad!

[Critters2]

180. I'm guessing your job's pretty safe, tho

or does daddy support you?

[imlost]

198. You better believe it. My sugar daddy that is!

[proud2BlibKansan]

197. Not many future Einsteins?

Many have criminal backgrounds?

Where do you get this crap?

[upi402]

100. Right on! most of the world is like that to some extent k/r

Except this corporatocracy!

:toast:

[Ignacio Upton]

113. Fox also treats Guatemalans who cross Mexico's border like shit

Illegally crossing the border in Mexico can get you thrown in a Mexican jail. Now, if I went down to Texas and tried to cross into Mexico, I would be wasting away behind bars! It's not racist to support applying the law. Fox only wants to export the poor of his country as a way of getting rid of them and to make some money off of their menial labor.

[proud2BlibKansan]

202. I have crossed the border from Texas into Mexico many many times

and I have never been thrown in jail.

[Ignacio Upton]

218. Crossing the border is also illegal in Mexico

just as it is in crossing from Mexico into the U.S. The border between us though, isn't well maintained, but neither is the one with Canada.

[proud2BlibKansan]

234. Huh?

So I can't go across the Mexican border?

[Fountain79]

273. I think he means...

Crossing the border illegally.

[me b zola]

124. Share with me how your declaration helps Dems draft a platform

I agree with some of your OP (anit-globalism, anti-corporatism), but in the context of Congressional races heating up along with the issues of immigration, I am more interested in us defining this broad & complex issue in Democratic values. Pointing the finger at Mexico's immgration hypocracy seems, er, pointless.

[izzybeans]

129. Let's talk about irrelevant flame bait.

[Tom Joad]

137. Americans first? Did i just tune into the Pat Buchanan channel by mistake

[sam sarrha]

146. Mexico advertizes for people to cross illegally, exporting their poor to

raise the standard of living for the have it alls, which is second only to France.. minimum wage in Mexico is $4.80 DAY !!!!

[lovuian]

189. This is a True story from Mexico

The Cruise ships that go on jaunts to Cancun with many Americans went to Cancun off the boat and Americans decided to rent motorcycles. An accident occured and American entered the hospital there... The boat was leaving and the American who was patched up in the Mexican Hospital was told they needed to pay $10,000 in cash no credit cards or be imprisoned... For those who have not been in Mexico lately thats the standard threat pay up or go to PRISON...The American had to have money wired to the hospital before released

So that cheap trip to Cancun was quite expensive...

But this is what Americans have experienced for themselves... Now the Mexicans come to our hospitals give false addresses have no id No insurance and our hospitals take care of them and without paying their bill because in America we don't imprison people for not paying their bills... but in China Mexico India ... you go to jail...

What I'm saying this is not a one way street...

Lets give All Americans healthcare Socialized Medicine... and Americans will have no bills to pay like the ilegal immigrant does
fair is fair...

[knitter4democracy]

227. Medjet.

Never travel without Medjet insurance, even on a cruise. I don't.

[Thtwudbeme]

252. Your "true" story reeks of being an urban legend

I had a friend with me who had heatstroke in a small town (at the time...this was in the eighties)....the town is San Miguel de Allende....and the hospital people were completely professional.

I adored them.

The payment was fairly cheap, and my friend paid in travelors checks, I think...or cash....I can't remember.

Extortion? Well, I call bullshit on that.

Stephanie

[Peter Frank]

203. I could not agree more with your statement...

"...Down with globalism and corporatism. "

The only problem is that the corporate globe has no conscience. The hypocrisy of power is already global. Americans need to look homeward, and work internally for change.

[lovuian]

205. They need to take example from these Great Protestors and

take to the streets and DEMAND HEALTHCARE FOR EVERYBODY!!!

and lets get out of IRAQ!!! I'm tickled with this Protest... its Bush's nightmare... :rofl:

[rman]

223. Corporatism is a global problem, isolationism won't solve it.

Work internally for change, yes - but don't forget the rest.

[Peter Frank]

204. Would I be "unpatriotic" if I disagree with you on any level? n/t

[lovuian]

207. No PeterFrank I would adore you for it... This country was

founded on disagreement!!!
Your a patriot and I salute you...:patriot:

[Peter Frank]

210. Unfortunately, the OP (Original Poster) is John Barrett...

He's the one I have more than one issue with.

But thanks for the good thoughts lovuian.

[John Barrett]

255. May I ask what are your "issues" with me?

Peter Frank....May I ask.....what are your issues with me other than we disagree on this issue of ILLEGAL immigration?

[Clarkie1]

213. #2 is rather irrelevant, as this is an economic issue.

Mexico does not have any jobs that Americans are going to cross the border to try and get.

We need to control our borders, while allowing for farmworkers and other foreign workers who do work Americans will not to be treated with dignity and respect.

Right now, the situation is out of control. We need much better enforcement of existing laws in order to only allow those who are working here access across the border.

[Critters2]

246. I don't believe there are any jobs Americans won't do

if paid a decent wage.

[Name removed]

216. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[QC]

217. Joe McCarthy, is that you? n/t

[rman]

220. The USA is the front runner in globalization and corporatism

The situation in Mexico is a result of that.

I gather the Mexican constitution doesn't say Mexican corporations have priority over foreign corporations in operating in Mexico, given the large number of US corposations operating in Mexico. Or maybe it does but then it's overruled by the practicalities of US foreign policy.

Also i gather Mexico doesn't enforce the part about explicitly forbidding any country from meddling in the politics or affairs of their country - after all the US has to look after it's own interests everywhere, and we know what happens to those who oppose that.

Mexican President Fox is a RW/corporate tool if nothing else, as his support for W's "guest worker" program demonstrates.

[countryjake]

224. So is El Presidente Fox a worse fascist pig than our own prez?

You really should flip off that tube and try marching out there with people who are earnestly concerned with improving the rights of workers in this country...lots of demos happening this week to choose from, all over the place, probably millions of Americans, and they are all hoppin' mad at the outrage being thrust on us by our own ruling hypocrites.

Those masses of people that are hitting the streets are doing what it will take to bring down corporatism and end imperialist globalism. If you are sincere in what you say, they are showing you the way.

America was built with the sweat, blood, and backs of the Working Class...WE are the majority in this nation and when WE walk off our jobs and crowd the streets and raise our voices with the shout of "HELL NO", then and only then, will bastards like Bush and Fox and every other power-crazed politico pay attention to us.

Try joining your brothers and sisters out there today...you'll be amazed at what we can accomplish!


Viva La Huelga!

[Maestro]

230. All rhetoric aside in this thread, here is what I understand

Fox wants to have input in how a possible guest worker program would affect Mexicans working in the US. I see nothing wrong with this. If some want to believe that Fox wants to be a FULL partner in how we run our country and economy, I believe this belief to be an exaggeration, but since Fox is dealing with the Great Morans, I could understand the overreaction. Perhaps more anger should be directed at our Great Morans Leader than the poor Mexicans coming here to work and their president asking for input. These sorts of diplomatic conversations are normal as far as I can see.

The original OP stated that the Mexican constitution gives priority for jobs to Mexicans. Okay, well, what would you want it to say? This is nothing abnormal. Mexico has also allowed for much foreign investment in the form of cheap labor conservatives of this country picking up and moving operations there so Mexico may have created some new jobs for Mexicans but nothing that would help the lower classes earn better wages. A very small percentage is allowed to work in upper management in these American corporations so the everyday day common Mexican still is suffering economically. Thus, they still come here to find work. They find it illegally because, yet again, cheap labor conservatives mostly, provide the work. It will always happen until our government attacks these cheap labor conservatives. So again I do not understand the anger with Mexican or Central American immigrants.

The original OP stated that the borders are very secure in southern Mexico. What? I work with immigrants on a daily basis and many are from El Salvador and Guatemala. The southern border is pretty porous I would opine. There may be more troops in that area but it may because of the rebellion down in Chiapas that causes problems from time to time.

The third part of the Mexican constitution to which the original OP refers is a joke. Mexico has allowed the US to meddle in its government for decades stretching back to the early 1800s right after its independence from Spain.

The United States DOES need to protect our workers more, but directing anger at immigrants and other countries is not correct. Here are a few facts on immigration:

SPL Center

Six myths explained

More here

[proud2BlibKansan]

241. Ah an informed voice of reason

Maestro -> :yourock:

[countryjake]

254. Thanks for a coherent explanation! "The Great Morans"...ROTF!

Until people realize that they are taking advantage of us all, none of us will gain a thing.

[Fountain79]

276. The myths....

Does that relate to simply illegal immigration or immigration in general?

[Maestro]

285. Immigration in general

In regards to illegal immigration, I still contend that no amount of "reform" in immigration will help until cheap labor conservatives are smacked down hard for hiring undocumented workers. These are the ones that are propagating the continuation of a near or below poverty sub-strata of our society. The reasons so many risk so much to come here is that there is work even if it is at slave wages. It's better than nothing which is what they had in their home country.

Democrats need to foucs their attention on corporations like Brinker, Inc here in Dallas for example that continue to hire undocumented workers. When an occasional INS raid takes place in one of their kitchens, Brinker receives a small fine and the undocumented workers gathered up like cattle and shipped off splitting up families as if they were so some sort of criminal. The real criminals are the cheap labor conservatives who refuse to pay Americans a decent wage with benefits and rather pay slave wages to undocumented workers.

Much of the anger here at DU is not aimed at the responsible parties. All culpability lies in these cheap labor conservatives. I just hate seeing at DU a Pat Buchananesque "close the borders" mentality. Blaming those that are least responsible and least capable of fighting back is a repiglican technique; not a democratic one.

Respectfully submitted....

[Zookeeper]

288. "Cheap labor conservatives"

You are absolutely right about that and I think DUers on both sides of the debate agree that businesses that exploit cheap illegal labor and use "them" to suppress wages for Americans need to be held responsible, fined and shut-down if necessary.

Perhaps we ALL (myself included) need to emphasize cracking down on BUSINESS, when we write and call our Congresscritters.

[Name removed]

260. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zookeeper]

269. LOL! Who made you the captain of the "progressive"...

police?

My reasons for opposing illegal immigration ARE progressive. My loyalties lie with chronically undereducated and unemployed African-Americans, Native Americans, poor whites who live in historically impoverished communties and our new LEGAL America citizens from all over the world. We have an obligation to provide opportunities for our own citizens.

Class issues have a lot to do with these disagreements regarding illegal workers, but I'm certain that a large part of this is also a regional difference. People from the Southwest and So. Cal. tend to believe that their "reality" applies to the rest of the country. I lived in California for ten years and was appalled at how arrogant and provincial California "natives" were and how ignorant regarding the vast space between Las Vegas and New York. I'm getting really tired of the suggestion that Mexican citizens have the right live anywhere they want in the U.S. just because the Southwest used to belong to Mexico.

:banghead: :rant:

[LostinVA]

272. Nobody made me captain of anything

If you honestly think some very unprogressive attitudes aren't showcased on this thread, then I honestly don't know what to tell you... because there are some very nasty comments that could almost ahve been lifted from some John Bitrch literature. And, this has nothing to do with American NA's or African Americans... period. They've been disenfranchised economically before this "problem," and will afterwards. Not too many Mexican "illegals" in urban Detroit or Pine Ridge Rez in SD...

And why the talk of California? I live in VA.

[Zookeeper]

287. There have been all kinds of stupid comments...

made on both sides of the immigration debate. Last night I read a comment to the effect of, "As soon as the subject of immigration is raised, people start complaining about losing their jobs." I don't consider that comment very "progressive."

IMHO, millions of illegal workers coming into this country willing to work for less than a livable wage DOES affect opportunities for chronically undereducated and unemployed Americans of all races. And there are now MANY Mexican illegals in Detroit, Chicago, Minneapolis (I know a few)....really anyplace that there are jobs. BTW, a Mexican consulate opened in Minneapolis last year, which will give you some idea of many Mexican citizens are here.

As far as my talk of California...it was just a general rant, :rant: , not directed at you.

[Vidar]

262. Considering how much of our county is stolen Mexican territory, they are

entitled to all the bitching they like. A few thousand Pancho Villas woundn't be a bad idea either.

[Bridget Burke]

283. So the supporters of the Republican bill are still out in force.

Thought this was a Democratic board.

[Zookeeper]

289. Maybe I've missed something...

But, I haven't seen any DUers support the Rethuglican bill.

[Bridget Burke]

291. In many threads about the Protests....

Quite a few DU'ers were livid at those who dared march.

Guess it slipped their mind that the protests were against the Republican bill.

[ulysses]

298. let's talk about American stupidity.

Why are we letting them pit worker against worker???

[madeline_con]

299. Vicente could build his own sweatshops, then export the goods

to the U.S. That way, he'd kill two birds AND make a profit!