Fair discussion of the immigration issues on DU.

[redphish]

I originally posted this as a response to another thread.

<snip>

The immigration issue is a delicate one for those on the blue side.

On the one hand, there are many people that should be welcomed into this country and given the opportunity to become productive American citizens. On the other hand, our borders are insecure and the processing of illegal immigrants is a joke. Our government needs to focus on both the security AND the processing sides of the equation. A much as some immigration activists would like us to ignore it, there are a lot of people entering this country that do not deserve to be citizens of this country. The bush policy of putting up a fence and hoping the problem will go away is as big a joke as the Maginot line was for France. The Democratic Party must come up with clear policies that address all aspects of the immigration issue fairly.

<snip>

It distresses me to see people who are trying to discuss ways to solve the problems of immigration and border security intelligently being dismissed as racists and closet right wingers. It is obvious to many people in DU that a problem exists and fair solutions must be found. I have only been a member of DU for a short time, but feel it is a place for candid discussion of issues without resorting to the tactics of posters on another board on the dark side.

[bahrbearian]

1. I didn't know immigration was a problem,,??

I thought ill-legal immigration was the problem at the borders.

[existentialist]

2. agreed

I don't have any solutions, but I do think that DU should be a place where the issues can be discussed without be called named, and without being asked to leave because someone interprets a statement as being not Democratic enough.

I was somewhat disappointed by the tone of some of the comments yesterday, but did not persist in pushing the discussion not because I felt abused, but because I really didn't have much by way of substantive proposals to offer.

[treestar]

3. Immigration is a non-problem

America is made up of immigrants.

It is prosperous because it took those willing to work, period.

It has always been that way.

America can absord any group and make them into Americans. That is America's greatness.

The history of immigration to America is the history of America.

[redphish]

6. Immigration is not the problem.

The way our government handles it is. I don't have any sweeping answers to give. But I do expect our party leadership to address the issue. Like it or not, this is going to be a big issue in upcoming elections and our candidates had better have some damned good suggestions to bring to the table. Unless you want bush to build his wall and shoot everyone that tries to cross it.

[Strelnikov_]

12. Taking Indigenous Peoples Land Is Also The History Of America

Times change.

All indications are that fossil fuel energy sources are at or near decline. If so, we are probably at or have exceeded the population carrying capacity of the country. The effects of accelerating climate change are a looming unknown.

I have no problem with carefully controlled legal immigration. I have major problems with the open-borders unlimited immigration some here seem to be promoting.

And the 'America is a Nation Of Immigrants' meme is jingoism. Why do you think the Chimp is using it.

The most prosperous time in America for the middle class was the post-war period up to the mid-70's, a period with very little net immigration onto the country.

Who worked all those jobs 'Americans Don't Want' during this period?

[Vetinarii]

16. America is vastly under-populated

Look at Britain. One-fifth of the population of the USA, living in one-fortieth of the land area. Are they starving? Are they short of fuel? Nope. On the contrary, they support a standard of living quite comparable to the USA on barely half the energy use per head.

And the whole of western Europe is like that. France is slightly less densely populated, Holland slightly more so, but all of them support many, many times the population density of the USA, and still produce agricultural surpluses.

When the population of America begins to approach that of China, then you can reasonably start to talk about "the population carrying capacity of the country". Until then, however, when Americans complain about immigration, all the rest of the world hears is "Pull up the ladder, pa, I'm aboard".

[Strelnikov_]

17. If The US Was As Fertile As England Or Holland, Sure

And did I not mention LOOMING fossil energy depletion?

And how do you think England and Europe are going to fare if a chronic energy shortage arises? Or the Atlantic Conveyor shuts down as expected? Or the droughts/desertification of SW Europe continue? I have read enough articles to known the UK government is worried.

And did I not say I support carefully controlled legal immigration?

And if you think open-borders unlimited immigration will be beneficial for the middle and lower classes in this country, then you are clearly delusional.

If you think a population density equal to China is an acceptable outcome, then you are clearly delusional.

[Vetinarii]

27. What's "clearly delusional"...

... is the belief that America somehow "can't support" significantly more people than it does. It can.

Every wave of immigration so far has benefited America's middle classes, and to a lesser extent its poor. In your first post you mentioned the post-war period until 1971 - immigration was trotting along quite briskly then. Koreans, Cubans, various south-east Asians, Latinos were all piling into the country just as fast as during the boom of the 1920s.

The one period in the last hundred years when immigration was seriously curtailed was the 1930s/40s, partly because demagogic politicians in the Great Depression propagated the same myth as their modern counterparts: "Immigrants will mean fewer jobs for real Americans!" Immigration was restricted in 1924 and again in 1929 in the hope of preserving American jobs, and this short-sighted measure helped unemployment to soar to levels never seen before or since. During the recovery, on the other hand, FDR's government - in the teeth of vicious public opposition - relaxed immigration quotas for refugees from certain European countries, and the economy suffered not at all.

And as the chronic energy shortage begins to bite harder, Europe is going to be much better placed to deal with it than America, in no small part because of its much greater population density. Imagine, for instance, the fuel savings when most kids live within 2-3 miles of their school.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[QC]

21. NZ requires English proficiency for a residency permit.

That's not citizenship, but just residency. Plus there are some pretty hefty fees and other hassles.

For example, if I want to move there is a "skilled migrant," I have to handle that through their London office and pay 585 pounds for the paperwork. Also, it's recommended that you have a firm job offer before trying to come there. And you have to submit complete health and police records. Oh, you also need to be in a profession where NZ has a shortage, so that you don't displace their own workers. And you better not be older than 56.

Other than all that, you can just stroll right in!

[Strelnikov_]

25. When YOUR Country, New Zealand, Opens Up Your Borders To All Comers

you can lecture me on our immigration policy.

[wuushew]

26. To what levels would you populate this continent?

All that would be accomplished is further strain on the eco-system and the inevitable economic problems of a non-growth state. Dealing with the upcoming crisis would be far easier now when we have greater population and resource slack then when the U.S. is five hundred to a billion strong.

Much of the topsoil in the United States is not in good shape nor are the aquifers which are being pumped at massively unsustainable levels. Peak natural gas will also mean that the day of cheap ammonia fertilizer will be gone for good. If we judge affluence by the per capita energy available to us, then the future of maintaining or increasing our material comfort lies with fewer resources being used by even fewer people. Conservation is a key component of living well, but unless you save more than is demanded by population growth you come out behind.

[TahitiNut]

4. The incivility is disappointing. No question about it.

It seems there are a few issues on which this 'community' is fragmented and apparently either incapable or unwilling to keep the discussion civil without claiming that those who disagree are racists, or sexists, or corrupted by some vice like smoking. The apparent inability to maintain an honest and respectful focus on the message and not the messenger is appalling.

Illegal immigration is certainly one of those issues. For a community that espouses a return to the rule of law and equal treatment under the law, we sure get our panties in a twist when those who break that law are deemed worthy of some kind of special regard.

[bahrbearian]

15. Along with the Employer's that hire them.

[TahitiNut]

19. Absolutely, if not more so. Ubetcha.

When I said "those who break that law ... deemed worthy of some kind of special regard" it CERTAINLY includes employers. In no way whatsoever does that only refer to illegal immigrants, and I NEVER implied it! The contortion of such words to infer something neither said nor implied an any way is one of the problems with discussion on DU.


In my personal opinion, the 'illegal immigration' issue must be dealt with in a balanced fashion on five fronts:

(1) 8-11 million illegal immigrants (from anywhere) must be both respected for their needs and their humanity and be given some penalty for breaking the law. I do not believe the penalty should be draconian or harsh, but to do nothing is equally wrong. I'm entirely inclined to pardon those who materially cooperate in the identification, prosecution, and conviction of coyotes, employers, and others engaged in the human chattel trade. The exploitation of human suffering and oppression is unconscionable and the worst of the offenses!

(2) The borders must be better enforced - all of them. This would include better visa/visitor enforcement. It does not have to be an "iron curtain" nor should it be.

(3) Employers who knowingly, or with illicit disregard, employ illegal immigrants should receive penalties of increasing severity depending on the degree (time and number) of such infractions. Such penalties should, in the most egregious cases include imprisonment and confiscation of business assets.

(4) Enormous pressure (diplomatic and financial) must be brought upon those governments - Mexico is the most obvious but others are included - to clean up their economic systems to more fairly compensate labor and deal with poverty. The Gini Ratio in Mexico is above 0.50 - an appallingly oppressive and unjust distribution of income that compares with colonial times and plantation economics. The 'ownership class' in Mexico is corrupt and entrenched.

(5) The U.S. is looong overdue for increases in the minimum wage and updates to the Fair Labor Standards, at least to better include agribusiness among others. The Federal Minimum Wage must be adjusted to offer a livable wage. No question about it. The despicable nonsense about "no American wanting to do the job" must be shoved down the throats of those who peddle this elitist, self-serving bullshit until they choke on it.

If borders, customs, trade, and immigration laws are to ever mean anything at all, a balanced and just treatment in all five areas must be diligently addressed. Any claim of some narrower simplistic approach being satisfactory or acceptable is deluded, simple-minded nonsense. The most noxious and aggravating element in the mix is the idea of a 'national identity card.' Europe has been able to manage their relatively open borders mostly because such identification cards are used and because the economic conditions are far more comparable between adjacent nations. The latter factor is mostly why such migration issues are orders of magnitude less sever along our border with Canada than with our border with Mexico. I have no doubt that some might find 'race' (or jingoism) a motivation for focusing on Mexico and finding a bias for draconian treatment of illegal immigrants, but to smear anyone attempting to deal with a complex issue without applying the law to all in an equitable fashion is sheer demagoguery and incivility ... and seems to portray a mental or emotional disorder I'd prefer not to get into.

[redphish]

20. RE: (5)

When you hear any of those fucks say "no American wanting to do the job" you have to complete their sentence with "at the pitiful, non-livable wage you greedy bastards are willing to pay".

[Mountainman]

5. The discussion as I see it is this: do we want open borders or not.

When I hear Latinos discuss the issue they never mention the fact that crossing the border the way undocumented immigrants do is illegal. It seems to me that they want open borders. The life they seek here is better than the life they are leaving and I can't blame them for trying to find a better standard of living for themselves and their families. If I were in their shoes I would do the same thing.

I feel that what threatens many who don't want illegals here is the change in our society that is taking place. Everyday there are more and more signs that California is becoming a dual society with two distinct cultures and languages. So what is the future going to bring? I can't see police going around rounding up illegals and deporting them. I can't see the end to the dual culture except for sometime in the future when the two cultures meld into something new.

Latinos are a growing segment of this society and I feel that we all need to accept that fact. To rant and rave against illegal immigration does nothing to stop it, but rather makes the ranter's life less than it could because of all the negative energy spent.

I believe we should have open boarders. The jobs Latinos seek are jobs that we need them to do. Their children born here are Americans with all the rights we enjoy. They tend to move into the middle class and over time the cultural differences blur.

We need to create the social structures that support the society that exists today and will exist in the future. We need to create more social justice for all people living on this side of the border.

To try to do otherwise is an effort in futility because human nature being what it is, people will always strive to find a better life if it can be had.

[redphish]

7. Agreed but....

You can flame me till there's nothing but ash left, but there has to be a mechanism to refuse entry for people that come here with less than honest intent. These people do come here, and should be turned back at the border.

[creeksneakers2]

8. I don't feel that strongly one way or the other

But I think making illegal immigration a felony is way beyond what is necessary. We have millions of illegal immigrants we do nothing at all about. Why single out a few and declare them felons?

I think the only thing that can get the problem under control is a national ID card. I don't think there is anything to fear from one but most do. It would be much cheaper than 700 miles of fence and all these guest worker programs. More effective too.

[wickerwoman]

22. I think that will just create another black market.

Illegal immigrants can already get fake social security cards and driver's licenses. Why wouldn't they just add the ID card to their black market shopping list? And meanwhile, it would limit the privacy of American citizens by forcing them to live "on the books".

[shamrock]

9. I don't post much

but I read all the time and I'm confused. What I'm seeing is lots of DU'rs suggesting that we should advocate exactly the same attitude that they complain about with bush. Follow the laws we choose to follow and just ignore the ones we don't like. When I see people voicing their opinions here and being called 'racist', etc. because they think laws should be obeyed It just brings back that sick feeling I used to get when I was called unpatriotic, unamerican, saddam lover, etc. I'm seeing the same attitude here. I think I will just give up and crawl back into my cave.

[Cleita]

13. Unjust laws shouldn't be passed and this is what is

happening. In Hitler's Germany laws were passed against Jews making it illegal for them to shop in most places. That means they couldn't buy food and necessities. They had to break the law to survive making them criminals. You know the rest of the story. Is this what you think America is?

Oh, the anti-semetic laws started very innocuously. First a law was passed making it illegal for Jews to hold jobs in the government. Those law should go to Germans was the rationale. It escalated from there.

[Mountainman]

14. I think most pro immigration DUers are advocating for a change in the law

and not the kind of law now on the table. Our current laws are unworkable in this situation and unenforceable. It is very wrong to call someone a racist who believes in upholding the current law because racism is not their motivation. We need a new way of thinking about this issue. There is more pressure on both sides of the issue to not enforce the current laws. Business wants the cheap labor and immigrants want the jobs.

Where farm labor is concerned, the way to make the jobs less of a magnet is to raise the wages to the level that mechanization becomes economical.

If this society can spend millions a day promoting war we surely could change our priorities and spend millions a day making the lives of people better. We lack the will to do that I am sorry to say. Killing and keeping people in poverty is more important than social justice in this country.

[redphish]

24. Don't do that.

The RW can count on a united front because they can count on blocks of voters that have been brainwashed into thinking that voting repub will help the country go back to the "good old days" and their dreams for their little corner of the world come true. Our challenge is that our side consists of folks that want to see our society push forward. The other side have been coalesced into a mindless voting block. We are a group of freethinkers. Each of us has issues that are important to us and want to see addressed right now. If this was a perfect world, they would be. Unfortunately, it's not. The only hope we have is to get enough of us together to come to an agreement that allows us to elect enough folks to nudge our ship's course back toward a forward course. No one is going to get everything we want right now. The surest course to defeat is for any one of us to "crawl back into our cave".

[me b zola]

10. I see it as a labor issue

I am very pro-immigrant. Many of the people who are here illegally have children who are American citizens. They all deserve to be treated with respect & dignity.

I am against a "guest worker program" because that further drives down wages, benifits, and expectations of business to provide a safe work enviroment for it's workers. Amnesty would at least give the imigrant workers protection under the law and would act less as a catalysts for decreasing employment rights for native born workers.

[GRLMGC]

11. Exactly

I totally agree

[wickerwoman]

23. For me, it's all about the employers.

You're never going to stop people from moving to find a better life for their children. You can put up the highest wall in the world, you can shoot without warning at the border, you can train dolphins to shoot harpoons at their boats and still starving and desperate people will come.

Why? Because there's a demand for them. I pray to God that the Republicans try to use immigration as a wedge issue in 2006 and 2008. Let's talk about New Orleans fellas. How many illegals are working on the clean up crews because they'll work for less than minimum wage?

And what is the real problem with illegals being here? It's that they depress wages (the employer's fault)and don't contribute to services like schools and hospitals because they don't pay taxes because they're paid cash off the books (also the employer's fault.)

What the Democrats need to pound in is that hiring illegals is the problem, not the fact that they're here. If they couldn't find jobs on every street corner, they wouldn't be here.

[Disturbed]

28. Employing Illegal Immigrants

should be a Felony that is sanctioned by Prison Terms not fines. Fines don't work. Corps merely absorb those fines and keep hiring the cheapest labor available sans any employee rights.

I don't understand The Open Borders concept.