if we really want to do something effective about illegal immigration

[ulysses]

(and I'm not at all sure that we do), why not do something to genuinely help the economies south of our borders and thus remove the incentive for folks to leave their home and come north?

I'm no economist, but I have a hard time believing that, were there the will, we couldn't do something other than exporting American jobs to assist our neighbors to the south.

[proud2BlibKansan]

1. That's what Clinton was trying to do with NAFTA

but I guess it wasn't enough. I can remember 10 years ago telling my pro labor anti NAFTA friends that it was about preventing the exact problem we are here discussing today.

Hey Ulysses, how ya doin? We start testing Monday. Yippee!! :hi:

[ulysses]

4. NAFTA is a problem in and of itself.

Doing fine here - we don't start until the third week in April, so we're still in the middle of the mad dash of cramming, test taking skills, etc. I hate this time of year.

[proud2BlibKansan]

10. I don't know what to think about NAFTA anymore.

I understood what Clinton wanted and supported him. And I was a union leader at the time. LOL I guess it wasn't comprehensive enough. Or maybe he was too busy with Monicagate to get it right.

I have already decided to put 3 of my kids on the alternate assessment next year. They are all MR and they are going to bomb on the state tests. Our district was notified by the state that we haven't met the minimum # for exempted kids. So I am going for the alternate. Do you have any kids on that?

[ulysses]

12. we have a large SID/PID and MoID population

so there's no room on the GAA list. All my MID kids take the standard test. It's fun.

I have a different view of what Clinton wanted with NAFTA - it's part of the reason he's been on my shit list for years. :)

[proud2BlibKansan]

16. He sure lost me too, such a disappointment

What's SID/PID and Mo/ID? All these mnemonics - LOL

My district practically made it a capital offense to exempt kids. So now we have all these really low functioning kids taking grade level tests.

Here's a funny test story. The district had a big meeting with instructional coaches last week giving out last minute directives on testing. My good friend was leading the meeting. She said one of the coaches raised her hand and asked "Is it true we have to test kids who are no longer enrolled in our school?" My friend replied (with the straightest face she could muster) "Yes, you need to go to Mexico and find every one of them".

[ulysses]

17. severe/profound/moderate intellectual disabilities

MID - mild.

[proud2BlibKansan]

18. In MO,

they call them all MR - mentally retarded. Ain't that nice?

[ulysses]

19. GA is more PC than Missouri?

Of course, we still call the certification MR...:eyes:

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[radio4progressives]

30. NAFTA is John Negroponte's Brain Child Project, He Wrote the Agreement

Just found that out about a month ago, when he was on C-Span touting his horn on the story. He tried without success in getting Poppy Bush to push it through Congress - then when Clinton came into office, even though Clinton campaigned against NAFTA before he got elected, once he got elected, something happened and Negroponte got Clinton to push it through.

Now, Negroponte is Director of Central Intelligence...

ain't that special?

[John Barrett]

34. And We Got Screwed

Clinton screwed us royally on that and I for one will never forget it.

[damntexdem]

24. NAFTA made it worse.

Corn (maize) originated in Mexico; and there are therefore many native variants. But due to NAFTA, and U.S. subsidies for the growing of corn, U.S. corn producers have taken over the Mexican the corn market. Rural populations that could previously make a poor living producing and selling corn can no longer do so -- so there is more emigration from the countryside, to the cities, and to the States. Meanwhile, all of those factories that were settling in northern Mexico and were going to turn it into a big economic success -- many of those companies have moved production on to China for even lower wages than prevail in Mexico.

[Terran1212]

38. Mexico is the same after NAFTA

Corporate reliance never helps except in the short term.

[Redstone]

2. Now THERE's an intelligent and well-thought-out post.

All it would take would be the will, some inventive thinking, and a few billion bucks. Much less than we waste trying to keep people out (and not doing so) every year.

And those few billion bucks would surely flow back to us in a myriad of ways, goodwill not being the least of them.

I do hope that people here rise to the challenge of your post and come up with concrete examples of ways it could be done. Thanks for putting this conscept on the table.

Redstone

[ulysses]

9. think of the billions we'd have

without the Iraq war. I guess my suggestion would be "nation building", though.

Thanks, Redstone.

[Redstone]

13. Ya welcome. Think if we'd spent those billions not only doing what

you propose, but (for example) building factories in Palestine, so the Palestinians would have jobs and hope, instead of hopelessness and rage?

How many lives would we save?

Redstone

[ulysses]

15. would that we had that America still.

:sigh: Maybe some day.

[damntexdem]

25. No, no, that's the wrong packaging:

we'd need to call it "trade building."

[anitar1]

32. First of all , there would be a need for an army to guard the money.

Could not turn it over to the Mexican Gov. as it would disappear. Mexican politics are notoriously corrupt.They are inhumane toward their people. They could not be trusted to handle anything.I know some fine Mexican people who support their families in Mexico by working here.Growing up in Calif, I could never understand why so many hated the hispanics.They are an important part of the fabric of our life, and are simply trying to survive.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ugarte]

5. Economic aid without political reform just lines pockets of the rich

Latin America needs genuine revolutionary change, economic democracy.

[GRLMGC]

6. I think there are signs of change

with recent elections in South America. I hope the wave of change continues and doesn't get sidetracked like it did in the 60s and 70s.

[ulysses]

7. fair point, but I didn't necessarily just mean cash aid. n/t

[damntexdem]

27. Well, here's one thing we can do right here:

buy our gas from CITGO. We not only help fund Chavez's reform efforts in Latin America; we also help fund his selling of heating oil at below-market prices to the poor of the Northeastern U.S.

[wakeme2008]

8. IMHO we should support Bush's Guest Worker program

and then let the Repugs fight it out. :)

[proud2BlibKansan]

11. Sounds like a plan to me

They ARE in charge, after all.

[wakeme2008]

28. And they have two groups at odds with themselves

IMHO this should be a Dem :popcorn: time. :)

[John Barrett]

35. I Agree ... The Dems Should OPPOSE It

If the Party wants to gain traction politically, this is like manna from heaven. It would pull votes out of the GOP and the middle. It's a natural fit for that Democratic Party of old that your grandfather belonged to. Bush and the GOP Congress would be out in right field while the Democrats were running the bases and winning elections with a grand slam.

Do I expect Democratic leadership to capitalize on it...hell no, they're out in left field.

[FloridaPat]

14. I think we should just annex Mexico, make it the 51st state. All

problems solved.

[ret5hd]

23. damn! wish you were in charge before we went into iraq...

we could'e used a thinker like you then. oh well, there's still iran. why don't you dash a note off to *?

[treestar]

20. Just quit worrying about it

give visas to people with jobs, know who is here and let it go at that.

If you could make big money in another country, I'm sure you'd see it as stupid if they wanted to let that prosperity go, JUST BECAUSE OF WHERE YOU WERE BORN.

It's all too stupid for words, especially in this country OF IMMIGRANTS!

What do you care if someone was born in Mexico? What skin is it off your nose if they work here?

[proud2BlibKansan]

21. But, but, they broke the law to come here!!

They are ILLEGAL!! I am SERIES! This is hugh!

[John Barrett]

26. Hey...not my problem.

It might be too stupid for words for you, but I will surmise that you, as with the others who claim this a non-issue, that you're not in a $7/hr job that is competing with an illegal who will acept $4/hr.

Self-righteousness can be a virtue when it is based upon something that affects that individual.....but not when it concerns something that only affects someone else....like that American guy making $7/hr.

[Strelnikov_]

31. Of Course, From The Lofty Perch Of A Tenured Teaching Position

a defined benefit/trust fund annuity, or college paid by the parents, the impact of the labor black market on the middle and lower class working people of this country seems to be, well, no problem at all.

The minute there is any discussion of tightening up immigration, a civil war revolving around accusations of racism breaks out, nothing gets done, and the Iron Heel (GOP Corporatists) laugh all the way to the bank.

[John Barrett]

33. Well Said .....

I wish I could have said it as well. The hypocrisy reeks from those on the perch and it is sad.

As with our Senators and Congressmen and Bush....they need to a walk a mile in the shoes of those truly impacted with real stresses, loss of wages, and job insecurity instituted by this corporatism, supposed free trade, outsourcing and insourcing that some Democrats have apparently bought into lock stock and barrel.

When one has a secure job with all the perks of office, tenure, secure retirement with generous taxpayer paid perks and benefits it is easy to make claims of pious racism against those less fortunate who dislike seeing THEIR job lost to those from OTHER countries.

[Strelnikov_]

29. Great. And What About The Next 11 M, Then The Next 11 M

Then 11 M after that?

[Lefty48197]

36. We could ban imports from China

and force Walmart to start buying products made in Mexico instead of China.

[ulysses]

37. a sunday evening

:kick:

[tnlefty]

39. We need to round up all of the greedy, bloodsuckers - the CEOs of the

huge corporations. You know, the ones who are making 425 times what the average workers are making and then taking ungodly amounts of money out of the corps. with their retirement packages, etc. These folks just loved NAFTA because the auto, furniture, and how many other industries could relocate into countries like Mexico, China, etc. where they can pollute to their blackhearts' desires. The workers work cheap and they can't complain much or they're beaten up, etc.

The same corporate greed that has us in Iraq.

I have a neighbor who has mentored 2 different families who came here from Nicaragua. They left because when the 'peasants' began to complain about conditions there family members would begin to disappear or turn up dead. Who stirred up the hornet's nest there?

Coca Cola is in how many Latin American countries? Columbia and how many others? When workers try to organize or the people rise up to raise hell about losing their natural resource (water) workers disappear or they turn up dead.

I'm a thinkin' we've got to do something about the 'greed is good' attitude and get some control over the greedy bloodsuckers.

[ulysses]

40. I think that's true.

Immigration doesn't exist in a vacuum. :thumbsup: