Is reverse racism raising it's ugly head in the immigration debate?

[FormerRepublican]

I've read various posts on DU on illegal immigration. I even read a bunch of freeper posts on illegal immigration when I NEVER sully my eyes with the trash that infests that website. Personally, I think the growing demand for immigration controls is driven by economics and job losses in the US middle class. But inevitably, whenever I read ANY posts on what should be done about illegal immigration, I see all kinds of people pointing fingers and shouting racism back and forth.

When did loving your own country and it's citizens - formerly known as patriotism - become racism? When did support of American workers and their worries and concerns become racism? When did the expectation that other nations would act to solve their own problems without our input (and open borders) become racism?

To be honest, I'm tired of accusations of racism and when I hear them I immediately tune out those who are shouting that accusation. When I hear it enough, I just plain put those folks in my ignore file. What all those shouts of racism actually mean is "shut up" and "I don't care what YOU think!" So I stop listening.

Illegal immigration is an incredibly divisive issue, but I personally don't consider anyone who is looking after the interests of Americans to be racist since America is comprised of every race on the planet, and defense of Americans by defination means defense of all races. We are amazingly multicultural. Now if someone said "I put WHITE Americans first," I would be the first in line to shout "racist."

I think we need to have open discussion and debate on this issue, and that's not going to happen as long as folks point the finger and shout "racist" at every opportunity merely to silence debate and dissent.

But by all means - jump in on this thread and call me a racist. I need to add a few names to my ignore file...

[ourbluenation]

1. we have a 4% unemployment rate. Help me understand how illegals

are taking away jobs. Seriously.

[Critters2]

3. Come to Iowa and let me show you around the meat industry

[ourbluenation]

5. and what would you show me?

[Critters2]

12. I'd show you

families who were supported with a good lifestyle in locally-owned union packinghouses, until the locals were bought out by corps like Smithfield, IBP, Tyson. Those corps then lowered wages, refused to negotiate with unions, and began bringing in (Tyson has been prosecuted several times for transproting illegal workers to its plants) undocumented workers at wages of a third or less what union workers were making. Some workers stayed for as long as possible, but could not support families on what the plants were paying. At first, their lifestyle suffered, but in time many left for larger cities looking for better pay. In their place are immigrants working in much worse conditions that the unions would have sanctioned, often with violations of OSHA regs and other fed rules, but with no one willing to report them, at pay that bearly supports them, but apparently is still better than they had in Mexico or Central America.

The whole meat industry is a tangle of violated human rights, environmental damage, decline of rural communities and animal cruelty. The underpaying of undocumented workers is just one aspect, but an important one.

Corporations must be made to pay a fair wage.

[ourbluenation]

28. I consider myself a world citizen, and then an american.

I feel bad for the people of your town who were forced to move to the city, I really, really do. But I feel equally bad for people who risk everything to move to another country illegally to escape poverty in their own countries for lack of opportunity...our illegal immigration problem just highlights the wideing disparity between 1st and 3rd world countries.

[Minnesota Libra]

33. This is what is wrong with the entire issue of illegal immigration.......

......"consider myself a world citizen, and then an american".

If a person considers themselves "American" second, then of course their primary focus will not be what is good for America. Debate over!!

[Terran1212]

27. You want those jobs that are close to slave labor?

[FormerRepublican]

8. I didn't say the illegals were causing the job losses. That's your bias..

...talking. I said that economic concerns were causing the backlash, which is a totally different issue.

And I would argue mightily with your 4% unemployment figure. I've seen the pain in my family, in my community and my extended community. I've even seen the pain in informal polls here at DU. I think unemployment is far worse than we're led to believe.

And no, I don't think illegal immigration is necessarily to blame. I do think it fuels the fire to control illegal immigration, though. People feel more compelled to restrict access to jobs when they feel their own job security in doubt.

[ourbluenation]

13. I was speaking in regards to this idea that illegals are taking jobs

away from americans. I think it's bs. I was not responding directly to you.

[FormerRepublican]

14. I am the poster of the OP. You replied to me.

Who were you talking to if not me?

[ikojo]

15. The unemployment rate maintained and reported by the

government is misleading...it counts only those people eligible for unemployment benefits. Not everyone is eligible. It doesn't count those who have exhausted their unemployment benefits as well.

[nonconformist]

40. The actual unemployment rate is much, much higher

That figure only includes people that are currently on unemployment. That doesn't include people that have exhausted their benefits, or people that didn't qualify for unemployment for any number of reasons.

[foreigncorrespondent]

44. There not!

Outsourcing is!

[LynnTheDem]

2. There is no such thing as "reverse racism".

Racism means being racist against a different race.

It does NOT mean whites being against other races.

[tsuki]

4. I just answered what is happening in my part of the country, and

what I fear about the "guest" worker bill at

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2536347&mesg_id=2536438

[havocmom]

6. Am thinkin the issue is this year's GOP ploy to divide and conquer

while avoiding actually addressing the issues of the damage done during the GOP control of the government for the past 5+ years.

They can't run on their record. They can't run on real issues. They HAVE TO manufacture emotional wedges as diversions from the rape of the nation and the pillage of the treasury.

[Finder]

10. Bingo! n/t

[High Plains]

30. It's the Republicans who are split down the middle on this.

The Sensenbrenner "throw 'em all in prison" crowd had its bill pass the House.

Bush and the corporate crew want a guest worker program.

This issue is dividing Republicans like crazy.

[ourbluenation]

49. Isn't it delicious!!!!

[AllieB]

7. As a nation, we have a history of racism when it comes to immigration

This goes back to the Know-Nothings in the 19th century, social darwinist adherents in the 19th and early 20th centuries, and many of our home-grown neo-Nazi/racist movements. I think many people are focusing on the immigrants themselves and not Republican policies and the cheap labor conservative business owners.

The Right-Wing is using this as a wedge issue, just like they used gay marriage.

[bowens43]

9. Oh come on.....

What we are seeing is racism. Pure and simple. Xenophobia is an ugly thing and to equate it to patriotism is ridiculous.

Please add me to your ignore file and I'll add you to mine.........

[ourbluenation]

11. absolutely agree. There very much is a fear of america becoming

"browner" under much of the rhetoric I hear from righties.

[FormerRepublican]

21. I think the issue is a bit more complicated than you imply.

But I'm more than happy to add you to my ignore file.

[FormerRepublican]

18. Works for me. Welcome to my ignore file.

When people stop talking sensibly about issues, I stop listening.

[philosophie_en_rose]

32. put your hands to eyes and the issues won't disappear.

Your solicitation for entries for your ignore file indicates a strong hypocrisy. You are the one that isn't listening and telling people to "shut up." You're holding your hands to your eyes, instead of being brave enough to confront yourself with the fact that something might be true.

If you're interested in real debate, then perhaps you should frame a sensible discussion. You make a great deal of assumptions in your original post and have a generally confrontational tone. If you're unwilling to challenge your own beliefs, then perhaps your posts will end up as locked flame-fests. Another consequence is that you can rant without challenge, because no one will speak to you and you will not speak to anyone else. That doesn't seem very interesting, but to each his or her own.

I don't say any of this as a personal criticism, only as a response to your posts.

[FormerRepublican]

39. The reason why I'm NOW dumping people into my ignore file...

...is because I've been through all this before. And I get tired of being told to shut up, and have stopped listening.

To have a discussion, both sides have to be willing to participate. Not just me. And on this issue, I've had it...

[ourbluenation]

37. Come on now...lets all calm down.

Here's what I think we know...

There absolutley are people in this country afraid of america becoming "browner". It's racist. Flat out. Thankfully I don't really see that here on DU. :smile:

[gollygee]

16. You lost me at "reverse racism"

I don't recognize that as being legitimate.

[FormerRepublican]

22. I think it's self explanatory. But thanks for hopping into my ignore file

[gollygee]

24. The pleasure is mine

[High Plains]

34. Wow, doesn't take much to get added to your ignore file.

Hope you have fun talking to yourself.

[SomewhereOutThere424]

17. Weren't our ancestors immigrants?

Last I checked this all belonged to the native americans. They're not even considered american citizens.

If being american means it's okay to be european in ancestory, but it's not okay to be anything else...well...then I'm not american. I have 40% native american blood in me...I'm more proud of that really.

[FormerRepublican]

29. Last I checked, becoming an American national didn't require a

...specific race as part of the criteria. Seems the criteria fell along the lines of support and defend the constitution, answering a bunch of US history questions correctly, etc.

And your "Native American" meme is out of date. Recent scientific studies have shown that in-migration to North America prior to 1620 and the Mayflower was much more multicultural than you imply, including a quantity of Europeans. And if I were to follow your meme to its inevitable conclusion, the Native Americans themselves are immigrants, and therefore have no "claim" beyond those of all other immigrants.

Your 40% Native American blood is partly European, Asian, and a bunch of other races (nothing wrong with that). To imply that America and Americans are "white" or "european" IS racist and a stereotype, IMO.

[High Plains]

36. Are you shouting racist now?

What a silly thread. I'm outta here.

[mmonk]

19. What is reverse racism?

According to my dictionary, reverse means: adj. backward; opposite. So what is opposite racism technically?

[FormerRepublican]

35. Reverse racism is when you take two races - whichever ones you want -

...and one race acuses the other of racism because they are themselves racist, or something like that. It's the pot calling the kettle black, if you prefer.

[noiretextatique]

45. 'reverse racism' is a manfuctured term that has little meaning

it is generally, but not always used to silence discussions about racism.

[FormerRepublican]

55. Racism is real. It's horrific and a total violation of human rights.

But there's a difference between actual racism and accusations of racism that serve an agenda. It's the second I object to. Call it whatever floats your boat - reverse racism, a strawman, silencing dissent, whatever. But there is a BIG difference between the racism that lynched people in the south for nothing other than the color of their skin, and the debate over the lack of enforcement of illegal immigration. One is clearly motivated by racism, but I personally believe the other is not.

Wanting to control the borders does not necessarily mean one is motivated by racism. That's the point I'm trying to make.

[Finder]

20. As usual the debate is framed in a way...

that causes emotions to flare. I am as shocked to see racist statements being made by those on the progressive side as I am those accusing others of being racists.

I personally think it is more classism than racism that is the problem.

Our country(or at least the political discourse) has been hijacked by those who are experts in psychology. They are brilliant at presenting issues in an "US vs THEM" frame.

[SomewhereOutThere424]

23. very good point

I haven't heard stories of immigrants coming here and becoming rich oil tycoons.

[philosophie_en_rose]

25. Loving Your Own Country = Loving Your Own Kind

I'm not going to say that no one should be proud of who they are, but I will say that self-reflection and pragmatism are also important. When someone is constantly accused of racism, perhaps there is something to think about. It's probably true that many people could not care less what a racist thinks, but I think that any concerns about racism on DU are a challenge and not a dismissal. If you don't care to clarify your point, then I don't understand why you appear to be so defensive about it.

For the most part, I agree about American workers. They need to be protected, but not from undocumented immigrants. We need protection from our bribe-infested, useless government. Outsourcing is much more of a threat to all of us than Mexicans (or Canadians - who are for some reason not stigmatized for their undocumented workers - couldn't be racism, right? :eyes:) or trafficked workers from other countries (who do not typically displace documented workers). Even a casual review of DU posts should indicate that people here are concerned about US citizens and their survival.

[SoCalDem]

26. Middle class "squeeze" always brings out the worst

Let's face it.. NOT EVERYONE GOES TO COLLEGE AND MAKES $100k a year.. There are still millions and millions of people all over the country who USED to be able to count on "getting a good job with benefits, buying a modest home, and raising a family". That's ALL they aspire to, and it's not a bad thing...BUT when a group (ANY group) of people show up and are willing to work for half of what was formerly paid for those jobs, it puts pressure on whole industries to race to the bottom.

As a (greedy) employer who is getting pressure from stockholders to "beat the projection numbers", you would jump at the opportunity to hire lower paid people to increase the bottom line..

There's a whole crop of predators out there who LOOK for companies to buy..These companies are almost always gutted and "reconstituted" with lower paid workers, no unions, and with the valuable parts of the companies sold off, it's not long before the whole operation crumbles..

Look at just about any mid-sized town, and you will see closed-down companies all over the place.. Those companies USED to employ local people who kept that town solvent buy spending their paychecks.

The low-cost workers who follow the jobs, eventually do the same, but they are always looked at as the "cause" of the downturn...not just the pawns that they are..

Companies use these people as the "stick". If you do not accept their lowered wages, sans benefits, YOU can be replaced..

The effects of union busting are "bearing fruit"..bitter fruit..

The real problem, is that MOST of America considers itself "middle".. Mathematically it just doesn't pan out. 95% or more are just one job loss from poverty.

[ourbluenation]

47. Great post - the righties are anti union and anti illegal workers.

WTF did they expect when they promoted taking power away from the worker by crushing unions. jesus.

[Finder]

51. Good post. n/t

[CBGLuthier]

31. DU needs a lamest page

For posts of this caliber.

Please add me to your list too. :-)

[High Plains]

38. I'll kick for that!

[FormerRepublican]

Ignore files are a wonderful thing.

[FormerRepublican]

41. No problem.

[ugarte]

48. I'm tired of hearing Americans whine how illegals get all the goodies

I don't know about racist, but it's ridiculous.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

42. You may add me to your ignore file. It's racism.

[FormerRepublican]

46. THANK YOU!! I've been wanting to add you to my ignore file.

The only posts I've seen you respond to are regarding illegal immigration.

[noiretextatique]

43. what's the difference between you shouting "reverse racism"

and others shouting "racism?"

[FormerRepublican]

50. Not much. To be honest, this thread is a result of massive frustration...

...on my part. It makes me over-react. I recognize my own over-reaction. But it also allows me to control some aspects of my DU access, which can be a good thing when certain topics raise your blood pressure beyond the advisable.

[ugarte]

52. You know, to be honest

in the course of my daily life I never hear people talking about illegal immigration. I don't really believe it's the hot-button wedge issue with most people that the Republicans are tying to make it out to be. But it obviously seems to be one with you.

[ourbluenation]

54. It's a hot issue because of the reform bill the house just passed.

its a hot issue with a lot of people on all sides of the issue. It is. And by makin git an issue, the rethugs are gunna get bit in the ass. I think they are shocked by the protests.

[mmonk]

53. In my opinion,

any real immigration problem is probably related to inconsistent law or enforcement. I believe alot of the immigration hoopla is generated by fear and exploitation of that fear. I'm not saying that we don't have any immigration problems, but fairness and definitive law is the solution, not hysteria.

[LeftCoast]

56. Locking

This thread has degenerated into a flamefest.