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The immigration crisis in the US is Montezuma's Revenge on the White Man

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RagingInMiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-26-06 07:22 PM
Original message
The immigration crisis in the US is Montezuma's Revenge on the White Man
After all, the White Man has been pissing, spitting and shitting on Montezuma's people for centuries.

And although they've done it under the guise of God, honor and justice, it was done – and still is being done – under the lies of hypocrisy, greed and exploitation.

It started in 1519 when the Spanish Conquistadors arrived in Mexico and encountered the Aztec civilization ruled by Montezuma. Within two years, Montezuma was dead and the surviving Aztecs (more accurately called the Mexicas), were turned into second-class citizens.

The great city of Tenochtitlan was destroyed and Mexico City was built in its place.
The ancient language of Nahuatl was abolished and replaced with Spanish.
And the Aztec religion where they worshiped the Sun God Huitzilopochtli was replaced with Catholicism (not a bad idea considering thousands were sacrificed to keep the Sun God happy).

But unlike the English settlers of North America, the Spanish largely intermarried and created families with the Aztecs. Those families that retained a purer European bloodline, remained with the gold and the power.

And those families that retained a purer Aztecan bloodline, remained second-class citizens, mired in poverty with little education opportunities.

Nevertheless, after a couple of generations, they were all Mexicans. And Mexico, at the time, was twice the size of what it is today, stretching up to what is now California, Colorado, Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico, Wyoming, and Utah.

But in the 1840s, the Manifest Destiny gave the U.S. Government a “God-given right” to seize those states from Mexico. After all, isn’t God always on our side?

About 80,000 Mexicans were living in those states at the time, as they had been doing for several generations. They were allowed to become citizens and were promised that they would be allowed to keep their land. But by the end of the 19th century, either through force or fraud, their land was stolen from them.

The abuse continued through the 1940s with the Zoot Suit riots in Los Angeles, when American soldiers would drive into the Mexican community to attack Mexican-American men, ripping off their suits and burning them in the streets. When police arrived, they would arrest the Mexican-American for disturbing the peace.

And it continued in 1954 with Operation Wetback, in which the Border Patrol made regular sweeps of Mexican-American communities, arresting and harassing anyone who looked too Mexican.

And it continued in the 1960s, which resulted in Cesar Chavez standing up to the White Man and forming the United Farm Workers union.

And it continues today with politicians wanting to turn millions of hard-working Mexicans into felons overnight.

As a Colombian-American who was born and raised in Miami, before spending seven years in the Southwest United States where I worked as a journalist, I see this current sentiment against illegal immigration as another example of repression against the poor people of Mexico.

Those same people whose ancestors inhabited the Southwest United States centuries before the Europeans came ashore.
Those same people who lived in the Southwest United States before it even belonged to the United States.
Those same people who introduced the Aztec words, “taco” and “chocolate” into our language.
And those same people who have fought on the American side in every war since WW I.

Now that I am back in Miami, where more than fifty percent of the population is foreign-born, many who are here illegally, the hypocrisy of the situation is even more glaring.

Since my return before the 2004 presidential election, I have yet to see a Border Patrol Agent despite the fact that there are thousands of illegal immigrants from South and Central America here. Why do you think there was no large-scale protest here this weekend?

The fact that the Cubans are allowed to remain here legally would make it very difficult to decide who is allowed to stay and who shall be deported. It would turn into a disaster. And it would probably cause Miami’s economy to collapse.

Not that Miami hasn’t gone through its anti-immigration phases. The 1960s and 1970s were a very divisive time between Hispanics and Anglos down here. Considering that my mother was born in Colombia and my dad was born in Virginia, I could see and understand both sides of the issue. And I still do.

But because my dad married a Colombian woman and settled in Miami, the rest of his family in Virginia shunned him (except my grandmother, who was also living in Miami). My mother’s side, on the other hand, welcomed the green-eyed gringo into the family.

As a result, I’ve always considered my true family to be the ones living in South America. My cousins and uncle from my father’s side didn’t want much to do with a brown-eyed, half-breed like me, not that I ever lost sleep over it.

Fortunately, most of Miami’s xenophobes left a long time ago. The Anglos that live here today accept and immerse themselves in the city’s Latin culture. It’s not a perfect city, far from it, but we have moved beyond xenophobia.

But unfortunately, the rest of the country hasn’t.

Just keep in mind that before there was a U.S. Constitution, there was a small Mexican town on the west coast called Nuestra Señora la Reina de Los Angeles Porciuncula, where yesterday, more than a half-million people took to the streets in protest.

If I was still living in Southern California, I would have been marching by their side in downtown Los Angeles.

So to that small-minority of Mexican-Americans on DU, I salute you and your people. Your people have always welcomed me into their homes and culture. I raise a Tecate in your direction. And I follow it with a Cuervo shot.

Estoy contigo en la lucha.

Post here and tell me who you are, even if you’re just a lurker.

And to the rest of DU, I ask: Isn’t it about time we allow the Mexicans to share this stolen land with us?




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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-26-06 07:30 PM
Response to Original message
1. It's CHEAP LABOR CONSERVATISM
using immigrants to drive down wages. The immigrants aren't the problem. The problem is the fat bastards who want something for nothing, and want people to work for less than it takes to sustain them as citizens of their own damn country.

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radio4progressives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-26-06 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. You have that right warpy... and that's the issue that needs to be
struggled against... :hi:
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liberal43110 Donating Member (687 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-26-06 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #1
20. No one talks about this
You're right, but I don't hear this point at all. The only debate I hear is around racism/rights. I wish people would talk about the labor policies/economics.
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radio4progressives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-26-06 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. No one? You mean the elected politicians and "pundits"?
Edited on Sun Mar-26-06 09:09 PM by radio4progressives
I've been trying to make the case that all workers have a single common enemy, a system which essentially exploits labor and therefore profits from socio-economic oppression.... but by the way, can't talk about these issues without getting into the race and class analysis, because these policies that are developed and implemented depend on the exploitation of labor which creates race and class divisions. I've been trying to point this out in varying ways, but...

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Zookeeper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 03:27 AM
Response to Reply #20
57. People are talking about that...
until someone claims that people who disagree with them hate "brown people."
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-26-06 07:38 PM
Response to Original message
2. Thank you, Raging! I share your sentiments! I
Edited on Sun Mar-26-06 08:13 PM by babylonsister
live in TX and see the multitudes of Mexican people here. I don't know or care whether they are legal or not, but there are many.
I don't have an answer to this problem that's ripping this country and board apart, but I cannot see claiming suddenly that every person here is illegal and shipping them back to their country. Some have been here longer than I have.
There's got to be a way to appease both sides.
And I might add that if the laws that are being contemplated were in effect 100 years ago, most of us wouldn't be here.
Whatever happened to the wise words and the meaning of those words on the Statue of Liberty, "Give me your tired, your poor..."
The naysayers need to go check out Ellis Island.
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 04:11 AM
Response to Reply #2
61. Just curious babylonsister
As a Texas resident myself, does immigration personally affect you?
I've lived around immigrants my entire life--in Arizona and Texas both--and cannot think of one instance where I have ever personally had a problem.
Just wondering if someone could give me concrete examples of what immigrants have done to them personally...not to "a friend of a friend", "a brother-in-law"...etc.:shrug:
Seems the immigrant straw man is easier to rip apart than the immigrant strong man.
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converted_democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #61
73. It drives wages down across the board... n/t
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Maestro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-26-06 07:40 PM
Response to Original message
3. If the immigration bill passes, it will be a typical do nothing
bill that will help no one. Look at this letter by a Catholic priest who has helped immigrants all of his life. http://tinyurl.com/jzaqr

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radio4progressives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-26-06 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. It will be interesting to see how the white christian fundies respond
to this letter/position.

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RagingInMiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #3
40. The Catholic Church has long been there for the illegal immigrant
The churches are the pitstops as they cross the SW desert towards the big cities. And they are the central points once they get to the big cities.

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radio4progressives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-26-06 07:40 PM
Response to Original message
4. viva la libertad! viva la raza!
Edited on Sun Mar-26-06 07:41 PM by radio4progressives
I'm not a person of color, I am not a Latina, but I am in solidarity with the struggle as it continues...

I very much appreciate this most excellent piece of history, who too many are, through fault of their own, are completely ignorant of because of redacted or white washed in America's History books and classes.

btw, People like Lyn Cheney (the vice presidents wife) have been serving on educational foundation boards who decide what will be in Americas history books..

What happened in Los Angeles and across this nation yesterday and all these weeks, feels like the "Other Movement", the EZLM/Chiapas/Zapatista movement...

rated up and thanks!





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cherokeeprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #4
121. Viva la Raza!
I grew up here in Los Angeles County with the vatos from la raza. MEChA clubs were all the rage on the high school campuses in my area. Still are, in fact, to hear my daughter tell it.

I say let's give the southwestern United States back to it's rightful owners. Let them have the natural resources we've stolen from them, let them have the land, let them have the existing infrastructure, and let's pay them reparation. How much should the reparation be(?), I guess, is the most appropriate question. Let THEM decide. I'm thinking that we're likely to hear a number in the range of bizillions of dollars. Yeah, I'm talking bizillion with a B. Hey, but that's just a guess.

Then, I say we get really serious about returning native lands to their rightful owners. Let's institute DNA testing and find out just whose Asian ancestors migrated across the Bering Straits before the original "Global Warmers" caused the solid ice to melt. Then let's find out whose ancestors decided to stay in what is now stolen Alaska, and return it to that group. While we're at it, we're going to have to grab some land back from those nasty White Eurpeans we call Canadians and give it to those Asians who weren't happy with Alaska, and migrated further south.

Then, we find out who's really "American Indian", indigenous, "Native American", or whatever the fuck you choose to call it, and give their land back to them.

Next, we have those Asians who weren't happy with what is now Alaska, Canada, the northwest, or southwest. THEY migrated with the first of the people who crossed the straits, and kept right on going to what is now South America.

IF we're going to be serious about this, let's get serious about it.

Fuck the white man! Fuck the europeans! Fuck anyone who isn't brown! (brown?)
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randr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-26-06 07:59 PM
Response to Original message
7. Your post is most welcome
While I am not a Mexican/American, Tejano, Hispanic or what ever name fits any wave of immigration, I am part Native American--Blackfoot to be specific. We descendent's of mixed blood put up with a lot of derision from "pure blooded" natives and have few cultural or societal means to acknowledge our ancestry. Still many of us feel the genetic pull of culturally embedded senses that conflict with the American culture at large. Fortunately there are native elders who recognize us as we are. I was once asked, when I questioned my own acceptance as a "native", what part of myself do I consider "native"?
Not long ago, in the southern central of Mexico the Zapatista--http://www.mexconnect.com/mex_/zapat1.html---movement was born. Through word of mouth, natives from the Arctic to the tip of Chili realized that prophesy was at work. Since then many meetings have taken place to talk of this and some consensus has arrived at the realization that the native population is in all likelihood going to out populate the invading Europeans in just a few more generations.
In my present occupation, I come in contact with a number of our "immigrant" friends from down south and have developed some good friendships. Once the subject of ancestry is breached I am delighted to find that these "mexicans" think of themselves as "native Americans" first and Mexicans second. A bond occurs as we both are in the process of rediscovering our past and sharing in the recognition of our kindred ancestry.
I hope to see in my lifetime the reemergence of the true "American" in spirit and in body as peoples from the entire continent recognize their inheritance and take responsibility for their future.
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radio4progressives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-26-06 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. this is what people are really freaking out about...
consensus has arrived at the realization that the native population is in all likelihood going to out populate the invading Europeans in just a few more generations.

this is the issue that has generated a lot of reactionarism, word is out there and it's feeding the paranoia.

As a gringa, I find it amusing to see people of my own race freak out over this idea, personally I welcome it.

Recently i saw the video Bulworth (with Warren Beatty) he said that the solution to the problem of economic injustice and inequality would be to get rid of the white race... if everybody married opposite their race, in a few generations America would essentially be a nation where the majority of the people, were people of color. Now, i realize that's a whimsical fantasy, but there is something to that i find appealing. I'd love to be around to see a "Brown Majority" in America...
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randr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-26-06 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. People react so insanely to things that they have no
power over and ignore the most important issues that they have a real responsibility to affect. This is a part of the madness that will remove some people from the human gene pool.
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radio4progressives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #11
49. People are still posting insanity, they haven't even bothered to read
this post - before blasting out with insane reactionary crap - and they don't even know what they're talking about.
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RagingInMiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-26-06 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. What they fail to see is that the two cultures will become one
I guess what some white people fear is that the roles will be suddenly reversed. That they will suddenly be the ones exploited and abused. Maybe it's a guilty conscious at having been the oppressors for so long.

But the truth is, what will happen is that Hispanics will marry Whites and begin new families. It's already happening in many states.

There are too many White woman that find Hispanic men incredibly sexy, and there are too many White men who find Hispanic women irresistible.

The intermixing of the cultures has been happening in this country for centuries.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-26-06 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. Many white college kids would starve if it wasn't for
Edited on Sun Mar-26-06 08:55 PM by Cleita
Southwestern and Mexican food like tacos as a change from burgers and fries. Really, aborbing other cultural markers are next.
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RagingInMiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-26-06 09:03 PM
Original message
Especially at 3 a.m.
With those 24-hour taco joints that sell dollar tacos. I miss that about the SW. In Miami, we have 24-hour Cuban food which is good and cheap, but I wish we had more Mexican food.

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NVMojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 06:15 AM
Response to Reply #17
100. yeah, like the whole French versus Freedom fries crap
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radio4progressives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-26-06 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #12
28. I love your anarchist avatar
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RagingInMiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-26-06 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #28
33. Thanks
When I first joined DU, I had the white anarchist avatar that DU offers, but a few people already that, so I found this one through Google because I wanted to be unique.

And the colors are much more appropriate. It's my way of saying I want to destroy this current regime.
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Hardrada Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-26-06 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #33
38. I second that.
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radio4progressives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #33
46. upside down V for Vendetta
Edited on Mon Mar-27-06 12:24 AM by radio4progressives
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-26-06 08:22 PM
Response to Original message
9. Y'know what funny thing I've been thinking?
Maybe Gawd doesn't like white people very much.

When I hear another White Supremecist spout off about how whities are dying off and being outnumbered by non-whities, I'm gonna say, "Well, if Gawd really likes white people, why would he kill them off? Did you ever stop to think maybe Gawd is sick of us whites?"

That ought to make their heads explode, since Gawd does everything for a reason.....Katrina, a piss-poor Preznint, War...lots of ugly things these folks blame on Gawd. Why not one more to really make their heads spin?

Of course, I don't believe this, but it's a way to piss off the KKK types...:evilgrin:
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radio4progressives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-26-06 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #9
18. But, Isn't that essentially at the root of White Supremacy after all?
The fear of no longer being the dominant race, especially in this country when the chickens come home roost, the biggest fear maybe blow back.
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-26-06 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. No doubt
It's perhaps a bit like Israel, a tiny boat of Jewish people in a big sea of Arabs and Persians. They have decided to become violent and oppressive out of fear in the same way that Caucasians have lynched and enslaved non-whites even when they were in a very small minority in the non-whites' native land.

Not to start an argument about Palestine here; only noting that Israel has taken a hard-line approach to being the minority. It seems fear brings out the worst in folks. Imagine if each native tribe in the US - with their tiny numbers- felt as paranoid as some whites do about their heritage dying off?

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radio4progressives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-26-06 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. yes.. of course, the paranoia Israeilis have is based on real life
experience.. of course their justified paranoia has also caused serious harm, and there's the dynamic we see now.

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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-26-06 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #25
32. How do you protect yourself without harming others?
In the year 2006, you'd think we could come up with better solutions than maiming and burning and killing each other. :cry:
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radio4progressives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #32
42. Yes, you'd think... eom
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #18
80. Indeed
Read BLIAR's speech in OZ and see if you don't understand that precise fear. The white man's burden is no more. He is outnumbered. And it is my hope that all those whose ancestors were murdered and exploited will be more humane and forgiving than the so called civilized Europeans who came to our lands.

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BlueStorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-26-06 08:25 PM
Response to Original message
10. We have no right to deport...
anybody for that matter....

We are all immigrants or decendants of immigrants. I am Italian, French, Spanish, Norweigen, and Dutch. So I consider myself European Latina/Germanic....

Although I do think that we do need to control our borders a bit, I do think that people entering this country illegally should be given a chance to live here and set up roots. We should allow them time to apply for naturalization instead of just yanking them up and deporting them.

My family has had many Hispanic friends in the past, and I enjoyed being with them. I enjoy sharing and learning in others' cultures and I think that people benefit in learning and being multicultural. I personally think that those in office are xenophobic and isolationist, after all what better way to feed false information about the world than to keep all that are different out.

Sorry, I am having a hard time articulating tonight, bleh..

Blue
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-26-06 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. I have a similar genes to you.
Edited on Sun Mar-26-06 08:53 PM by Cleita
Spanish, Scotch/Irish, German and Dutch, and probably some native American that my mother didn't want to admit to, but she bore a striking resemblance to the native Auracanian people of southern Chile.
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BlueStorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #16
114. I think I have French Canadian Indian in me..
at least that is what my grandpa told my mother a long time ago.

Blue
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radio4progressives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-26-06 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #10
26. you put it very well...
i share your perspective, i have sort of a mixed european ancestry, but i was raised in cross racial home - in the South.

That allowed me to see things through a very different lens...
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-26-06 08:43 PM
Response to Original message
13. Thanks for posting this. Some DUers don't believe that
the immigrants who cross our borders for a better life are an underclass of mestizos who are more native american than european. They really have more of a right to be here than the people who want to make them into criminals like that POS Sensenbrenner.
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radio4progressives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-26-06 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #13
27. exactly so..
a lot of people are assuming this issue is about "protecting american jobs and our national security"... Sensebrenner and the like probably ordered up those new detention centers from Haliburton/KBR just for this purpose.
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Appalachian_American Donating Member (199 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #27
47. This has probably been said somewhere else, but I've missed it
if it has...maybe the Mestizos and Mexicans and Latinos and Hispanics and everyone that disagrees with Sensenbrenner could boycott Kotex. I read a post that suggested sending Kotex to him for some reason, but that just increases his wealth.

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radio4progressives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #47
48. !
Edited on Mon Mar-27-06 12:31 AM by radio4progressives
dollars to donuts Sensenbrenner has probably received a ton of used napkins !

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl: :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-26-06 08:44 PM
Response to Original message
14. The revolution is long overdue.
I'm hoping it will spread to all of the oppressed people in this country.

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VirtualChicano Donating Member (165 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-26-06 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. dr. truxillo of the university
dr. truxillo of the university of new mexico has written extensively on this subject. he calls it "la republica del norte."

-----------------------

http://chicanoforums.com
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radio4progressives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-26-06 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #15
30. "Utah Said To Be Historical Location Of Mythical Aztlan"
Edited on Sun Mar-26-06 09:31 PM by radio4progressives
Utah Said To Be Historical Location Of Mythical Aztlan

By Roberto Rodriguez

Bits of History Suggest Utah Is Location of Mythic Aztlan

It was a map drawn in 1768 by a Spaniard in Paris that sent Roberto Rodriguez running toward Aztlan.

As a Mexican American, Rodriguez long had pondered the historical location of Aztlan, the mythic homeland of the Aztecs. Six years ago, he and his wife, Patrisia Gonzales, found tantalizing directions in Don Joseph Antonio Alzate y Ramirez's map of North America.



cont...

http://chicanoforums.com/forums/index.php?act=home


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VirtualChicano Donating Member (165 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 03:14 AM
Response to Reply #30
56. Awake Sleeping Giant, Awake!
Awake sleeping giant, awake.
Awake and free your children.
Awake sleeping giant, awake.
Awake and free your Mestizo people.

Awake sleeping giant, awake.
Awake and free the little Mestizo playing kickball on the blacktop.
Awake sleeping giant, awake.
Awake and free his father from tyranny.

Awake sleeping giant, awake.
Awake to give the Mestiza pride in marrying one of her own.
Awake sleeping giant, awake.
Awake so that her mother can rejoice in her Mestizo grandchildren.

Awake sleeping giant, awake.
Awake now without vengeance.
Awake sleeping giant, awake.
Awake but without violence

Awake sleeping giant, awake.
Awake from your nighmare of colonization.
Awake sleeping giant, awake.
Awake and lead your people to self-determination.

Awake sleeping giant, awake.
Awake and give your children education.
Awake sleeping giant, awake.
Awake and end the wholesale incarceration.

Awake sleeping giant, awake.
Awake and unite us with our brothers
Awake sleeping giant, awake.
Awake and remove the fear from the others.

Awake sleeping giant, awake.
Awake and curse their wall.
Awake sleeping giant, awake.
Awake and unite us all.

Awake sleeping giant, awake.
Awake and free us this century.
Awake sleeping giant, awake.
Awake for it is our destiny.

© 2006 by VirtualChicano
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RagingInMiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #56
68. What up, Raza!
Despiertase que ahora es la hora.
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VirtualChicano Donating Member (165 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 04:00 AM
Response to Reply #68
93. EL PUEBLO UNIDO
EL PUEBLO UNIDO JAMAS SERA VENCIDO!
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RagingInMiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #93
106. I love it
This is only picking up steam right now. I once talked to a professor in the Southwest, I forgot where because I covered this topic extensively as a journalist, and this is what he told me:

The 19th century was the struggle and victory that abolished slavery.

The 20th century was the struggle and victory for civil rights, whether for women or Black Americans.

And the 21st century will be the struggle and eventual victory for immigration rights.
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NVMojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 06:18 AM
Response to Reply #30
101. Utah and Nevada were part of Mexico but taken in time for the California
Gold Rush of white greed.

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Hardrada Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-26-06 08:57 PM
Response to Original message
19. I am Norwegian by descent and would just love
it if Norway had a "right of return." I'd return. & I would be only too happy to have Iowa back in the hands of those who were cheated out of it. All the whites have done is use up the topsoil and pollute the rivers. Actually there was for awhile a rather pleasant local culture in places but agribusiness ruined that so I could say "bye- bye' readily enough.
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kineneb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-26-06 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #19
34. agreed
My ancestory is German, Swiss, Norwegian, French and English. My grandfather's family spoke German at home until WWI, and I have a degree minor in German. I would be happy to return to the land of my ancestors, any of them (well, maybe not England). My step-father's family is Persian, which is not a good direction to travel, given current politics.
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MountainLaurel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-26-06 09:03 PM
Response to Original message
21. In an interesting correlate: DC is about to become majority minority
Edited on Sun Mar-26-06 09:03 PM by MountainLaurel
The minority population in the Washington region will become the majority in well under a decade, a benchmark of the racial and ethnic change that is reconfiguring the area's political, economic and social identity.

Among residents younger than 40, minorities already outnumber whites, and experts say the trends that have driven up those numbers are certain to continue.

When it hits the majority-minority threshold, the Washington region will join a handful of the nation's largest metropolitan areas, among them Miami, Houston, Los Angeles and San Francisco. The New York City region will soon be among them.

Washington will cross the threshold in four to eight years, according to various forecasts.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/24/AR2006032402005.html

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Zookeeper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 03:42 AM
Response to Reply #21
60. I lived in San Francisco for ten years and loved the fact...
that there was no majority ethnic or racial group. It was diverse and beautiful and balanced.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-26-06 09:12 PM
Response to Original message
24. Outstanding!
:yourock:
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Zinfandel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-26-06 09:28 PM
Response to Original message
29. Fuck the bullshit dude...fight the republican corporate structure...
Edited on Sun Mar-26-06 09:47 PM by Zinfandel
there's the enemy, not liberal brother and sisters...it's just more hate and reverse racism, and it is hate and racism no matter how you want to spin it!!! Spanish blood is white European blood...so look at the way the Mayans in Mexico are treated... who have no European blood...just more fucking hate and excuses, fighting among ourselves, pointing fingers...We are all workers, it's the fucking ruling class, that needs to be brought in line and a more fair structure than the republican ideology that is in total control and loves us fighting among ourselves...neocons are always promoting divide & conquer concept among us ...but we must face the fact we are ALL inherently greedy, and we all want to pass the buck off somewhere and then take all that our conscience allows us to get away with, and the fucking neocons have absolutely no conscience whatsoever...it the same as the-slaved & chained Africans, the Irish, the Jews and my Italians, the Chinese beating beaten, cheated and enslaved...all hating and pointing fingers and all came to do something and fight the most effective way possible...One of my great hero's growing up in San Francisco was Cesar Chavez and now its Hugo Chavez...And other liberal, progressive & revolutionaries of ALL color.

I know very well who my enemy is.
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lovuian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-26-06 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Its republican corporate structure thats the enemy
and this other stuff is just a smokescreen...
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radio4progressives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #31
44. Ruling Class Elite - They Control Both Parties
There's more of them in the Republican Party and they are EVIL.

That's why many of us have saying tht the Democratic party had better return to it's base, who are the workers and the working poor of all colors. Edwards talked about that alot, and he still does. Unfortunately someone dragged him off down a weird imperialist foreign policy tour in the past year - the wrong people are now advising him...

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RagingInMiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-26-06 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #29
35. I'm not fighting liberal brothers and sisters
I just want people to be made aware that these immigrants are our brothers and sisters. I want to expose the historical hate that we are never taught in school. I want people to feel some fucking compassion rather than point their fingers and accuse the immigrant of stealing their job.

When we have a half-million people take to the streets in LA, that should be a huge warning sign that things are bursting at the seams. There will be more to come. Expect similiar rallies from America's Black communities.

The neo-Nazis may have forgotten about Katrina, but I doubt American Blacks have forgotten.

Whose kids do you think are getting killed in Iraq? It's the sons and daughters of immigrants. It's the sons and daughters of White, working-class Americans. It's the sons and daughters of Black Americans. And it's the sons and daughters of Hispanic-Americans.


It is not the children of the neo-nazis in office. It is not the children of the corporate CEOs. It is not the children of the privilaged class.

We are in this mess together. And I'm not sure people realize that.


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radio4progressives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #35
41. Amen Brother... Amen! This is exactly what's all about!


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Binka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 04:14 AM
Response to Reply #29
63. Zinfandel I Toss Love & Kisses To You From Sicily
Beautiful! "We are all workers, it's the fucking ruling class, that needs to be brought in line "
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Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #29
113. Amazing how some racism
is perfectly OK on this board. How sexism is acceptable provided it's against men. How regional prejudice is the norm provided it's against people who live in the South and/or rural areas. Some days this place is no better than any white supremacist website.
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radio4progressives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #113
119. I'm afraid i share your observations..
leaves me quite pessismistic..
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countryjake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-26-06 10:54 PM
Response to Original message
36. You mean "share land we stole from them", don't you?
Thank you for expressing your sentiments so well! It has been been very frustrating reading here this week, at a supposedly democratic, liberal website, finding posters who so strongly resent and fear the actions of a united front of working people, marching for basic rights in our nation.

Seems as tho, when the issue is labor, the backward-thinkers crawl from the woodwork, worrying about "turning-off" that section of our population that is already so bigoted and racist, nothing any working person does is noble, if the color of their skin isn't right, or the country of their origin isn't here.

The only times working people in this country have managed to make any gains, is when they have overcome their trivial differences and banded together to demand their rights, formed mighty unions, and struck this system where it hurts, smack dab in the pocketbook. We have our immigrant population to thank for every advance labor has made, to this day, and without them, there would never have been even one Union!

As a former union organizer, I can only appreciate and look forward to the progress that will be made, once the strength of solidarity is realized by those thousands who are are marching all over our country this week.
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RagingInMiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-26-06 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. Have you heard of the ongoing strike down here in Miami
Involving the janitors from the University of Miami and SEIU?
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countryjake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #37
43. Typical offering of concessions...
those crumbs the university is tossing out!

I hadn't heard of it, but I just read about that struggle here:

http://www.yeswecane.org/

I helped organize an electronics sweatshop back in the early seventies, and they tried that same tack of giving us peanuts in place of real bargaining power. (Tho it was only a dime, which was a mighty big raise back then, since we were only making $1.60 an hour) It's to weaken the fortitude of those striking and actually is a common tactic to keep unions out..."happy family" and "company union" comes to mind. NOTHING can substitute for the strength of joining together to be one voice in dealing with employers.

Hope they manage to keep their strike going and win recognition!

Contacting other unions and expressing solidarity with other striking workers is one way of putting pressure on the community to support the strike. Back then, the only way we got our strike on the news was after we talked with ladies garment workers from El Paso, got our respective, prospective unions to pay for travel and marched our multi-colored butts thru the streets of Cincinnati...our strike was won soon after.
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radio4progressives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #43
45. great story... eom
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Hardrada Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-26-06 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. We always said that in the SDS
that the ruling classes divided labor by race and religion and that solidarity could be achieved by stressing economic and social justice issues which affected everyone.
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dusmcj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #39
51. thank you
we need the old line, the folks who don't reminisce about "a great 60s" (hope you had one anyway :) ) because they were too tired from working their butts off, to share the knowledge gained back then, by the workers as opposed to the dilettantes and flatulators. Revolutionary continuity, if that's not too fatuous, as an antidote to all the bullshit about the "end of history" and "no more left and right" spread by the usual suspect upholders of the Old World Ordure. Bring it up to the line...
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radio4progressives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #51
52. "The Dilettantes and The Flatulators"
:rofl::rofl: sooo fucking beautiful! :rofl::rofl:
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countryjake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 02:07 AM
Response to Reply #51
53. Revolutionary continuity...
I find it pretty hard to keep up with typing here sometimes, as my fingers are crooked from working my fingers "to the bone" all of my life and I've never been able to afford an eye examination to get a "real" pair of glasses, so it's difficult to read. But when I see some jerk questioning a coming together of actual working people, because of the flag they carry or because the issue might not properly persuade voters, my blood simply boils.

I've worked in plants that went to the trouble of publishing leaflets trying to pin a commie label on my tail, to silence my whisperings for safe working conditions, lower quotas, or standard sick-days. Little did they know that their condemnations sparked a great understanding in my brain of what exactly they were afraid of and why they'd chosen that particular moniker to brand this solid working-class, know-rights-from-wrong, just-trying-to-earn-a-living, uneducated countryjake.

I learned very early what it seems some still have trouble grasping, and whether it comes from some long-dead social philosopher or a gaggle of underpaid, over-worked young women, (working for "pin money" as they used to describe us), one thing will always hold true, the workers, united, will never be defeated.
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radio4progressives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 02:29 AM
Response to Reply #53
54. workers united! will never be defeated!..
wish folks would remember this...

maybe a few good ole union songs will kindle the spirit!



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countryjake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 02:46 AM
Response to Reply #54
55. To the tune of the Battle Hymn of the Republic...
Solidarity Forever

When the Union’s inspiration through the Worker’s blood shall run,
There will be no power greater anywhere beneath the sun,
Yet what force on earth is weaker than the feeble strength of one...
But the Union makes us strong!

Chorus:
Solidarity forever, solidarity forever, solidarity forever,
For the union makes us strong!

They have taken untold millions that they never worked to earn,
But without our brain and muscle not a single wheel could turn.
We can break their haughty power...gain our freedom when we learn
That the Union makes us strong!

Solidarity forever, solidarity forever, solidarity forever,
For the union makes us strong!

In our hands is placed a power greater than their hoarded gold,
Stronger than the might of armies magnified a hundred fold.
We can bring to earth a new world from the ashes of the old,
For the Union makes us strong!

Solidarity forever, solidarity forever, solidarity forever,
For the union makes us strong!



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radio4progressives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #55
69. Thanks! Solidarity Forever is One of My Favorite Workers Anthym!
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radio4progressives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 12:59 AM
Response to Original message
50. Kicking for the am crowd..
:kick:
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Ignacio Upton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 03:32 AM
Response to Original message
58. The "white man" are also the upper class within MEXICO
Edited on Mon Mar-27-06 03:38 AM by Ignacio Upton
Vicente Fox is of Irish and Spanish descent. The Native Americans of both the U.S. and Mexico have had shit done to them. However, I will NOT support any form of Chicano nationalism that advocates creating some sort of independent country and "taking back" the southwestern states. You should know that the Mexican War was not simply a one-sided war of aggression. Both countries had been contesting the Texas border for a decade. On the eve of the Mexican War, the regular army of MEXICO was several times bigger than America's, and America didn't even have a calvary while Mexico did. The U.S. only won because of volunteers that filled in the ranks after the war started. Many military observers also predicted that Mexico would occupy and annex New Orleans (one prominent Mexican General even suggested this!) The war between the U.S. and Mexico was not the one-sided aggression similar to what the U.S. did to the Central Americans, Carribeans, or Hawaiians. It was a conflict between two mutually powerful regional countries, not unlike wars that were fought between England and France, or France and Germany. Should France give back Alsice-Lorraine because Louis XIV conquered it in the 17th Century (or course, Germany briefly "took it back" when they beat France in the Franco-Prussian War, only to lose it again after World War I) or should Chile give back land to Bolivia and Peru that it won in the 19th Century War of the Pacific? What about Argentina and Brazil giving land back to Paraguay to make up for the War of the Triple Alliance, which Paraguay actually started?

If we ever have a second Civil War that involves Chicano secession and a drive for the delusional thought of a "Republica del Norte" I will be one of the first to sign up for the UNION army and to preserve the Union. The people in Chicano groups such as Aztlan and La Raza are nothing more than latter day Jefferson Davis's or John C. Calhouns. I believe what Lincoln said in keeping the Union whole.

Also, ask the Mexican government why it treats the Mayan-speaking peoples of the Chiapas like shit? Shouldn't the Mayan-descended Guatemalans be allowed to illegally enter the Mexican border, since at one time southern Mexico and Guatemala were part of the Mayan Empire? Vicente Fox will tell you that they are illegals within Mexico.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #58
75. Don't worry. There will be no Chicano Civil War.
This is a peaceful invasion. What the world needs is fewer borders, not more.

A border dispute was the excuse for the Mexican War but "Manifest Destiny" was the real reason. The US directly provoked the war & eventually won half of Mexico's territory.

Ulysses Grant fought in the War & here's what he had to say: "The Southern rebellion was largely the outgrowth of the Mexican war. Nations, like individuals, are punished for their transgressions. We got our punishment in the most sanguinary and expensive war of modern times."





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Ignacio Upton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #75
76. I'm not denying that Manifest Destiny was one reason
Edited on Mon Mar-27-06 02:36 PM by Ignacio Upton
But divying up territory to winning countries is only a practice that has been ended in the 20th Century. Should France give back Alsace-Lorraine to Germany, which Louis XIV took in the 17th Century? Should Russia give St. Peterburg back to Sweeden, which they took from in the 17th Century? What is now the southwest is too vital a part of our country to be given back to Mexico (a lot of our population lives there, including many caucasians, blacks, and asians. Do you think that a Korean or Vietnamese immigrant would want to seceede and join a Chicano utopia based on charged rhetoric?) The land that we took also wasn't heavily populated. There weren't even 100,000 Mexicans there. As I also said, Mexico actually had a stronger regular army at the start, and there was talk of them taking New Orleans as a spoil of war had they won it.
Like I said previously, should there ever be the possibilty of a Chicano-based secession war, then I am willing to die to keep them from taking California and making it into the capital of "Aztlan." I want to preserve the union in a manner consistent with the person featured in my avatar, not divide it.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #76
77. NOBODY is starting a war to "take back" the Southwest....
I live in Texas. Cultures mix & will continue to mix. Deal with it.

I haven't heard the tale of the Mexicans planning to take New Orleans. But I have heard of US legislators who said we should take ALL of Mexico--instead of only half. It was bloody imperialism.




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Ignacio Upton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #77
84. I do not have a problem with Mexican simply being in Texas
I'm not racist. And as I've said before, I agree that Manifest Destiny was a factor, but the Mexican War was not militarily one-sided and a disproportionately strong country preying on a weak one. American intervention in Central America, Hawaii, Somoa, the Phillipines, are more apt examples of us preying on a weak country. Polk was also willing to provoke a war with Great Britain to get Oregon, but Brtain sold it to him. The Mexican War was basically one between two evenly matched countries, similar to the Napoleonic Wars or the Franco-Prussian War.
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radio4progressives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #77
87. Yes, I've heard that too, along with the Panama Canal and Venezuela etc
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radio4progressives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #76
86. I'm not suggesting that we give land back to Mexico...
That's neither doable, or desirable or eveb meaningful to anyone..

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Ignacio Upton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #86
90. Historically-speaking, a secession movement is possible
Edited on Mon Mar-27-06 08:01 PM by Ignacio Upton
(Read "The Untied States of America," by Juan Enriquez. His book was actually promoted here on DU in a web ad a few months ago. He suggests that it's possible, but also suggests Mexico and Canada could have similar problems in Quebec and the southern Mayan-speaking region, respectively. His book is essentially in line with my position on the matter. I don't looking for site like Free Republic or Stormfront to back up my assertions.) But it would take one or two factors, including a REALLY bad economy (Great Depression-style) and the sense of alienation and living withing the barrios, in the same way that North African teenagers feel like they are an underclass in France.
Can it be prevented? Yes. However, it will need to involve avoiding the creation of a permanant underclass of workers who do not know English or aren't able to get assistance due to their illegal status, and get treated like shit and bring their families to America, only to end up in barrios in LA or some other southwestern city.) It will take two or three silver bullets of good public policy, a better MEXICAN economy, and assimilation that encourage Latinos will embrace other ethnicities, NOT "Russification-style" assimilation through force and bigotry (in reference to Czarist Russia's oppressive measures towards non-Russian peoples.)
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 03:34 AM
Response to Original message
59. Such is evolution - the better overcome the rest
Change happens, there is no god - the strongest make the rules and some people lost.

If we follow evolution than the strongest will prevail and the weakest will lose. And history shows that.

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RagingInMiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 04:13 AM
Response to Reply #59
62. Then let evolution take its natural course
There were 500,000 Latinos protesting in Los Angeles.

300,000 protesting in Chicago.

20,000 in Phoenix.

Thousands more in other cities throughout the country.

No wonder everybody wants the immigrants out of here. They're afraid of becoming a minority.

You're exactly right.

Changes happen. The strongest will prevail. And the weakest will lose.
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radio4progressives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #59
70. So, Are You in favor of Social Darwinianism ?
Edited on Mon Mar-27-06 12:13 PM by radio4progressives
on edit: this is in response to Straight Shooter's post...

i just have to wonder what he will think of his social darwinian paradigm when "evolution" of the workers remove the shackles that binds us all and "storm the castles" of the ruling class to create an egalitarian society that works for all, and not just the 2% who possess all the wealth?
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #70
74. What I am in favor of does not really matter
And I was being somewhat sarcastic in my post (forgot the dripping icon).

But as far as social darwinism, I think it happens and will continue to do so - but not always in ways that are best for us. Now you can take us to mean a variety of things - from race to religion to nationality - and apply to those things and some groups will come out ahead and some won't.

But to me when I say 'us' above it is the human race. We will eventually blow ourselves up. It's almost like a biblical evolution. We are created and are barbians, we learn and grow, science expands, but the one thing that stays the same is 'original sin' (in this case the barbian in us) and all that we have acheived in life we use to become more efficient at killing each other. The bible starts with us getting here and ends with us in armageddon. Whether there is a god or not and whether or not the bible is true has no relevance because that simple premise it lays out is pretty darn accurate and logical.

We still hate and fear each other, we still envy what we do not possess, and the strong still take from the weak - only they can do it better now. Strong ideas, armies, etc all continue to grow to support themselves. Take christians (and yes I am one, but does not mean I do not critize the over all organization of religion). The disciples used to travel by foot town to town to preach the word. Now we have the internet, tv, satellites, printing presses, radio, and so on. As technology evolved christians, as a whole, utilized this to keep the message living and growing. Their message has went far and their ranks have risen. Now here on DU many people don't like the faith and it's messages (and they are open to interpreation and they are many sects, but speaking as a whole) but those people have not been able to use the same tools and methods to get their message out and convert people to their way.

Now to me, that is all relevant to this why? The europeans won back in the day. They came to what is now america and fought with people and won. They were further on the scale of evolution in the areas of war, organizing, etc. If there is no god you are left with science and evolution, and the strongest will - and should technically speaking - win and keep growing. Ideas, peoples, etc strive to survive, and to survive they need to expand their base, food supplies, water, (oil now too), land, and so on.

There is no morality to deal with - was it wrong what was done to indians and mexicans? It was nature taking it's course where one group did what it needed to do. Wrong is a moral term in this question versus a scientific or analysis of how something was done. The why of things is a moral question that can only be defined by someone's beliefs, whether religious (ie with a deity) or without one - it is all still made up, so in that way even atheists have beliefs in something not there. A moral can be used a tool to evaluate the goals one has and how best to achieve them - but the ways to acheive them keep growing and therein lays the crux of many problems people face.

Here in america the indians did not always like one another and at times were pretty mean to one another (enslaving captured tribes, killing other tribes and wiping them off face of the earth, etc) so they were no better on a moral scale than the invaders, they just lost. Every continent pretty much has a similar history of tribes fighting tribes, belief systems fighting other ones, and so on. It's what we do (sadly). It is the barbian in us, or it is that tiny seed of evolution that tells us our own ideals and life (and future generations like us) should survive - and to do so often means some other ideal or group must be destroyed or controlled (and the bush regime and some other politcal flakes in the world are wanting to control us all more and more - more laws, more propoganda, etc).

Control works better than war on a broad scale. Freedom is something it is feared people will have too much of. Ancient tribal leaders, modern politcians, past religious folks and current, etc, all fear the masses having too much freedom so they try to control everything and tell us it is for our mutual best interest (from smoking in a bar to registering your garage sale to murder and such). War is the hammer that breaks open things, control is the next step, and indoctrination.

Okay, I have to quit ranting now as I have to get some emails out :) Sorry I blathered on and probably never really answered you...
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radio4progressives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #74
85. Wow! Actually You did Answer the Social Darwin Question..
Edited on Mon Mar-27-06 06:29 PM by radio4progressives
The question i asked was are you promoting the ideology (which is a theme celebrated or at least lauded by Conservative Libertarians and such) and what i gather from your response, is that you are not promoting the ideology as much as you are acknowledging the principles of "Social Darwinism" throughout the ages.. and then you follow this phenomenon to it's logical it's conclusion, in how the laws of Social Darwinism will be the end of our existence.. (all of humanity).

Putting this in another way, the question still remains! But I'm not sure I am able to articulate this very cogently.. I'll give it my best shot:
Is it not our best interest (collectively) to work together in promoting socio-economic justice and equality despite the finality in the analysis posed by social darwinist theory and analysis?













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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #85
91. To me, Yes it is
But to be a collective, or to have one per se, requires that all groups involved share the same goals.

The role of religion in this is something we see in the biblical end times, those who do not share the beliefs are 'sinners' and are 'destroyed' - now keep in mind that can be figurative or literal. To get and have peace requires all people to believe in the same thing and in this case it is Jesus is lord and we surrender to him our own selfish desires so that peace can be achieved (ie, shun things that only benefit yourself like gambling, drunkeness, cheating on spouses, etc and so on). We are all called onto to sacrifice (much like christ did).

Over time ideals like a virus can spread. And there are a lot of them out there - from islam to christianity to scientology and all the rest. They all promote, in some form or another, peace through their system of things. How that is to be achieved is what it different.

So while it is in our best interest as whole - who will decide how it happens, who will enforce it, and what will the rules be, and what must each give up? Reminds me of the movie Hero, where the assassin does not kill the emperor because he believes that the emperor can bring peace and unity through war because he has the means, desire, and abilities in general to make it happen. Which goes back to what said two paragraphs before - destroy those who don't want the same peace you want. Ugly to be sure, and not something I like the idea of - but that has been going on for as long as mankind has been here, from the days of the ancients to hitler to now.

The idea you mention is good, implementing is what has been tried for centuries.
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radio4progressives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #91
118. yes.. but..
Edited on Wed Mar-29-06 12:44 AM by radio4progressives
you're suggesting that the probablity of evolving from our propensity towards total destruction is not in our favor, and to the extent that's true, we do have a need to feel that there we have a higher purpose which includes evolving from total self destruction..

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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 02:26 AM
Response to Reply #118
122. Pretty much
It can be a losing battle, but some folks see a way to win it - but not on our own. Mankind will always have tendencies to hurt/control others and so the battle will never end, unless a power greater than us can make it happen.

Humans have not changed really, can't really see they ever will either. Even if we had a something that brought us all together (like meteorite coming towards that we all work together to stop, like that one movie) in a generation or two it will be but a blip and things will go back to how they were.

Thing is - I think it is worse now than before. People were more limited by geography and weapons, there more smaller groups who could live in harmony with one another. Like a body that does well with some small illnesses, and then something new comes along and infects it and all hell breaks loose.

Too many people out there now with too many diverse ideas on who things should be run, and when people don't agree we get conflict. Obviously we won't agree on all things. But the big picture things are different - nuclear power or hydro? Depends on who is in power now, and then that will change. New people in power will launch 'educational' services to show people their way is good, some people will be swayed, the old way changes, new one wins, while others are screaming about how it won't work, and so on on.

We don't live long enough to have dynasties and empires (which were more possible in olden days due to geography, kings and queens, empires, concentrated power, etc), and yet I fear we soon will again have those things.
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DrunkenMaster Donating Member (582 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #59
78. Social Darwinism is NOT Evolution
Edited on Mon Mar-27-06 03:02 PM by DrunkenMaster
Social Darwinism is garbage.
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #78
92. What is the difference?
Socially we evolve, how and why is worthy of study.

Of course there is something real tricky in it all - what does 'evolve' mean in a social setting? Who defines it?

So in one sense, yes it is garbage, but it is also real - to me evolve means to change, not necessarily in a positive way based on my values (or yours maybe).

Social change is a better term than social Darwinism, but both indicate that as things change we do as well (socially). Ever changing and growing based on what we have learned - but doing so differently based on our core beliefs - one group changes at a different rate than another.
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anitar1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 05:00 AM
Response to Original message
64. Excellent post, Raging. I found myself cheering as
I watched the film of former Angelenos on the streets. I felt so proud of them.I grew up there for the most part and was a curious kid, so I had Mex-American friends ect.My parents set an example for me to explore other cultures , and I am forever grateful. We ARE all brothers and sisters. I am old now , but remember reading long ago that we would all be one color eventually.Why are people fighting this so rabidly? I read recently that white was simply a mutation.Can't remember the article , but it made sense to me.I am happy to see Hispanics here in Oregon, feels more like home to me.I have no idea of solutions to any perceived problems with immigration, or what to do about illegals. I know some illegals and would not want to see them deported.They are good, hard working people, who are just trying to survive in a harsh world. In my opinion, the whole problem originates from rotten, greedy, immoral politics.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 05:44 AM
Response to Original message
65. enjoyed your post
although I am not sure how good Montezuma was to "his" people. Wasn't he a murderous tyrant who thought he was a god?

As far as America stealing the land. To some extent, that war was pushed by the Haliburton/BFEE of its day. Also, in the ensuing treaties, Mexico was re-imbursed.

"The Treaty of Cahuenga, signed on January 13, 1847, ended the fighting in California. The Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, signed on February 2, 1848, ended the war and gave the U.S undisputed control of Texas as well as California, Nevada, Utah, and parts of Colorado, Arizona, New Mexico, and Wyoming. In return, Mexico received $18,250,000, the equivalent of $627,500,000 in mid-2000s dollars, for the cost of the war."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican-American_War

Granted, they received a pittance per acre and it probably did not cover the cost of the war, but it is kinda unusual for the victors in a war to pay the vanquished. When Germany marched into Paris in 1870 they made France pay for it. France returned the favor after WWI and that war debt and treaty kept a destroyed German economy from rebuilding until economic collapse helped put Hitler in power. So white people are seemingly quite ready to slaughter other white people.

Interesting reading there about the Mexican-American war. I had not known that America offered to purchase California and New Mexico before the war for $30 million. And that President Polk could not get the Senate to declare war, but instead got a joint session of Congress to do so, and this after he had sent troops into disputed territory and after the previous President allowed Texas to join the Union, which Mexico said would lead to war.

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RagingInMiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 06:04 AM
Response to Reply #65
66. Yes, Montezuma wasn't the most civil ruler
But neither was Saddam and looked how that country turned out when a foreign force invaded it.

The real problem with the land going to the United States was that most of the 80,000 Mexicans living on that land had their property swiped from them.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 06:36 AM
Response to Reply #66
67. Welcome to the United States
"If there is any law that has been consistently operative in American history, it is that the members of any established people or group or community sooner or later become 'redskins' - that is, they become the designated victims of an utterly ruthless, officially sanctioned and subsidized exploitation." Wendell Berry "The Unsettling of America" p. 4
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radio4progressives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #66
72. The Story of Injustices Carries on through the Generations ..
the fact that the lands were stolen from the people living on the land has never been legally, or honorably addressed nor have reporations made to these 80,000 individuals.. the ramifications of that injustice is felt and expressed today, and will continue to build.
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radio4progressives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #65
71. self delete (factual errors of the Monroe Doctrine)
Edited on Mon Mar-27-06 12:46 PM by radio4progressives
:shrug:
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #65
110. Yes, the Mexica were a rather bloodthirsty set of
invaders from somewhere up north. They invaded and set up shop, and then started conquering and demanding tribute. The other ethnicities were good for gold and sacrifices.

A tribe or two held out. The Tlaxcala decided to play tactical politics, and thought the Spanish would be a good foil for protecting them from being conquered--they had resisted for a while, but probably wouldn't have held out forever. They were right, in the very short term, the Spanish saved them from being slaughtered by the folk the OP thinks of as some sort of heroes; then the Spanish conquered the Tlaxcala.

The Aztec empire wasn't large, and was the new comers on the block; it wouldn't have been able to spread very far given how it ruled. The Mayan empire was as large, in its day.

The primary means for Mexico's acquiring territory was through Spanish colonialism. The people inhabiting the territory had no say over it, and were completely unawares of the Spanish claim for a couple of centuries, then they simply ignored the Spanish. And the Mexicans that inherited a portion of their colonial empire.

Those that look to the Mexica as some sort of folk model rely on ignoring their bloodlust and the fact that they conquered and subjugated others by force (or perhaps they rather like that idea?), and justify the empire; those that look to the original extent of Mexico ignore how and why Mexico had gotten it, it's the empire that counts. The means they decry when done by others is suddenly a virtue when done by people of their ethnicity: the same means used against Mexico/-ans is wrong.

Then again there were factions in the 1810s and 20s in Mexico that feared Texas' being overrun by the white man, with their foreign and barbaric ways, and had no problem expressing race-based jingoism, even as they killed the indigenous population (yep--the much vaunted Mexicans killing off the indigenous people when they got in their way). But that was in the early 1800s, so it's forgiveable.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
79. Profound indeed
Isn't it funny that thieves always shout 'Thou shall not steal' first. There's nothing linear about life's injustice -it comes full circle.
Lovely read. Thank you.
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Xithras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
81. As my wife would point out, it really isn't the Mexican's land either.
The American's stole it from the Mexicans who stole it from the Spanish who stole it from the Native Americans. The Mexica were a single tribe of Native American's who never set foot on now-US soil before the Spanish came. They were a central American tribe that happened to be in power when the Spanish invaded, which left them in a powerful position when the Spanish were overthrown. That doesn't make other Spanish conquests "theirs" any more than it gave the US a right to declare North America "ours".

The land that many Mexicans like to claim as "rightfully theirs" properly belongs to the Navajo, the Hopi, the Paiute, the Mono, the Miwuk, the Pomo, the Shoshone, and the descendants of dozens of other tribes that existed across the southwest. Call those people "Mexican", and the vast majority will give you an earful.

Of course, as my mother in law once told me "When our people were invaded from the east, our culture was attacked and replaced with one from another continent. Now our lands are being invaded from the south, and our culture is once again going to be replaced with one from another land. Either way, our culture is lost."
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RagingInMiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #81
82. I've read that the Mexica's came down from what is now the SW USA
and settled in Central Mexico.
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Xithras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #82
83. No, that's folklore.
Nobody really knows where Aztlan was, or if it was even a real place. Aztlan was part of the Aztec creation myth, and while it's possible that it has elements of truth in it, it's just as possible that it's religious fiction.

Over the years, many people have tried to pin down the location of the "real" Aztlan, just like people have tried to find the location of the Garden of Eden. Sites identified as "Aztlan" have ranged from the Mojave Desert, to Wyoming, to the coast of the Sea of Cortez, to a little valley that actually does fit the myth...about 50 miles north of modern Mexico City.

Was it real? Who knows, but it's certainly not anything to base modern political decisions on.
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RagingInMiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #83
88. I never mentioned Aztlan, I know it's a mystical place
But I have no doubt the Aztecs migrated south, as all tribes did over the years, after making their way across the Bering Strait from Siberia during the Ice Age.
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VirtualChicano Donating Member (165 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 04:28 AM
Response to Reply #88
97. sorry
i think i posted to the wrong person.

i meant that for Xithras

my mistake.
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VirtualChicano Donating Member (165 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 04:24 AM
Response to Reply #83
96. again you are misinformed
that was the old eurocentric teachings of our history.

modern day scholors do have indeed found the exact location of Aztlan. it was always known but it wasnt in the interest of the u.s. to let it be known.

http://www.chicanoforums.com/forums/index.php?showforum=42

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Xithras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #96
109. And that proves what?
In the old days, mapmakers would ask the locals for interesting tidbits to fill their maps. The fact that someone pointed to those spots on a map a few hundred years ago doesn't make it true. There is no local tradition in those areas about a lost tribe, and no archaeological evidence to support the claim.

FWIW, Aztlan supporters would be better of sticking to the old Lake Cahuilla claim. Lake Cahuilla (the predecessor to the Salton Sea in southern California that evaporated over 300 years ago) also fulfills the lake portion of the claim, and the nearby Colorado River equally fulfills the part of the legend regarding the first migration. Since the modern Cahuilla share MANY language and cultural values with the Aztec tribes in northwestern Mexico, and since a coastal migration is far more believable than a long hike across the hottest desert on the continent, this seems to be a far more realistic source of any truth in the myth.
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VirtualChicano Donating Member (165 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #109
115. It proves you can no longer hide the truth from us.
<In the old days, mapmakers would ask the locals for interesting tidbits to fill their maps.>

again, that is preposterous. where is your eveidence of this?

<The fact that someone pointed to those spots on a map a few hundred years ago doesn't make it true.>

this map is in essence an acknowledgement by the u.s. government, not "someone."

<There is no local tradition in those areas about a lost tribe, and no archaeological evidence to support the claim.>

the Mexicas were NEVER "lost." and there is plenty of archeological evidence to support that that area is indeed Aztlan. there is also plenty of indigenous lore handed down by the Utes, Hopi / Navajo et al. in addition, the Mexica language is a Ute dialect.
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VirtualChicano Donating Member (165 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 04:18 AM
Response to Reply #82
95. yes, this is true
http://www.chicanoforums.com/forums/index.php?showforum=42

http://www.chicanoforums.com/forums/index.php?automodule=gallery&cmd=sc&cat=24

Aztlan is located in present day Utah. the Mexicas are descendents of the Ute peoples, who in turn are descended from clovis man.
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VirtualChicano Donating Member (165 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 04:15 AM
Response to Reply #81
94.  that's preposterous
<The Mexica were a single tribe of Native American's who never set foot on now-US soil before the Spanish came. They were a central American tribe>

that's preposterous. that is one of the most mis-informed statements i have ever heard on this subject.

the Mexica are DIRECT descendants of the UTE tribes who settled in the valley of Mexico as the Toltecas were fading out and they originated from Aztlan.

http://www.chicanoforums.com/forums/index.php?automodule=gallery&cmd=sc&cat=24
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Zookeeper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 04:32 AM
Response to Reply #94
98. Is it possible that "chicanoforums" has it's own...
agenda?

'Just asking...:shrug:
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RagingInMiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #98
105. Isn't is possible
That every forum, including DU, has an agenda?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #105
112. Why are you scaring everyone with your foreign ways?
:)

I still think we should get everyone on DU to watch "The Milagro Bean Field War" -- directed by that raging Chicano, Robert Redford.

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VirtualChicano Donating Member (165 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #98
107. Please read our mission statement
Hello and Welcome

ChicanoForums.com and ChicanoForum.com were established on 9-15-04. Our mission is to provide a clean and professional environment for Chicanos / Chicanas and friends to expresss their views and opinions in a centralized, interactive - data base - setting. Once registered, you are welcome to participate in an intellectual and astute debate involving topics that are important to you, the community member, in an articulate and sophisticated format.

http://www.chicanoforums.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=319

this is our only aganda
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NVMojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 06:26 AM
Response to Reply #94
103. I agree and so do the Western Shoshones who live nearby
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NVMojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 06:24 AM
Response to Reply #81
102. I disagree with your wife. I work for Shoshones and they talk about
the language similarities between their culture and that of the people of Mexico. There are also similarities with other tribes in the Southwest. And let's not get into where the use of "peyote" really came from yet Native Americans all over use it in their churches and sacred ceremonies.
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Xithras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #102
108. Are there similarities? Of course.
If you want to trace it way back, all of the Native Americans descended from only a few migrations so there is a common heritage and some common roots to their languages. Claiming that this somehow gives the southern tribes the right to take over northern tribe lands is like claiming that the Germans had a right to invade France and Poland, or the Japanese had the right to invade Korea and China, because THEY TOO shared a distant common ancestry.

Ultimately it doesn't matter because the Europeans have ensured that the northern tribes are too weak and defenseless to do anything about it, but there is really no question about the morality of what is going on. The Mexicans and other southern tribes are just as guilty of conquest and exploitation as the Europeans were. Even if you want to take the Mexica origination myth as factual truth (which I could argue for hours as a historian, but I won't because I long ago realized the futility of arguing matters of faith), the tribe volountarily renounced their claim to one tiny portion of the American SouthWest nearly 700 years ago when they walked south to the Valley of Mexico (with a few stops on the way...I am somewhat familiar with the myth). That land rightfully belongs to the tribes (including the Utes) who posessed it when the European settlers came.
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Trish1168 Donating Member (371 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 07:17 PM
Response to Original message
89. I'm descended from the wealthier spanish Mexicans and our land was taken
Of course...it was taken during the 1850's. They were sneaky about it. Miflin Kenedy (one 'n' in Kenedy) took what he wanted. He married his Mexican wife after he killed her husband (because he always got what he wanted and he wanted her). Honestly, truth is stranger than fiction. You can read about it in the book "If you love me you would do my will". It describes the whole saga of one of the most powerful and influential of the Texas oil families (and how the last woman to control the land, a lonely widow alcoholic, came under the control of a svengali type monk who tried to get her to leave her fortune to him).

Link: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0393027627/qid=1143503482/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-2908577-3038532?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

But the author of this book (Stephen Michaud) gets one thing wrong. Miflin Kenedy did not buy the land. He kicked the Mexicans (my ancestors) off the land. When oil was discovered (which displaced cattle as the primary income), they leased our land from one relative (bribed or threatened, I assume) and kept it more or less secret from eveyone else (my understanding). I suspect they needed to lease it to satisfy the oil company regard the legality of ownership, but I don't actually know. Of course, the Kenedy foundation denies they ever leased it and claims it was purchased. We have paper work that supports our case. You can read about it at www.balli.org

The Spanish had a similar legal system as the English. This is an advantage we have that the native Americans never had. Part of me doesn't care if we ever see anything from this. I am not one of those that support slavery restitution and the like (from my perspective, no one is alive that engaged in slavery in the US....legally). However, Texas oil money is the root of all evil. Texas oil money (connected VERY closely with the military industrial complex) got us into Vietnam. The Armstrong family (King ranch fame...the Kings and Kenedy's were best friends) is very tied in with the Halliburton crowd (and it traces back to LBJ's time, because LBJ had many close links with the Armstrongs and Kellogg Brown and Root, now Halliburton).

Here we go again....the third Texas president, and the third war propagated by Texas oil money.

It was interesting that at the GOP convention for the 2004 election, Bishop Renee Gracida gave the opening prayer one of the days. This guy used to head the Kenedy foundation (which controls about $200 million in a non-profit foundation run by the Corpus Christi archdiocese). If you google him, you will find articles about how he was suspected of corruption (he was removed as foundation head). And I thought to myself...OF COURSE THEY'D HAVE BISHIP GRACIDA...HE FITS..TEXAS OIL MONEY AND CORRUPTION.

Nothing amazes me anymore. Now the Church has the money, but I can't honestly say they've done anything positive with it. Maybe I don't want the evil money (maybe it'll give me bad karma). Of course, its my Mom's before its mine, and its up to her what to do with it, if she gets it. I want her to live forever, so I'm not really wanting it, from that perspective.
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radio4progressives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #89
120. Boy Howdy! What a hell of A Story!
You should put ink to paper on this story and get it published asap!

i'm dead serious..
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VirtualChicano Donating Member (165 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #89
124. I'm descended form
NOPALES!
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NVMojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 06:12 AM
Response to Original message
99. Excellent and true rant! Thanks for posting!
And, yes, we stole this land too.
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Mr.Green93 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 07:20 AM
Response to Original message
104. It is not a "crisis"..... It is Manifest Destiny
The white man's time has past. Get used to it.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 03:00 PM
Response to Original message
111. El pueblo unido.
:toast:
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VirtualChicano Donating Member (165 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #111
116. Jamas Sera Vencido!
:)
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #116
117. Welcome to DU, hermanito.
:hi:
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VirtualChicano Donating Member (165 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 03:17 AM
Response to Reply #117
123. ty
gracias!
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 03:55 PM
Response to Original message
125. Did you just compare immigrants to shit?
Vile.

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