Who hires illegal immigrants?

[High Plains]

This is a serious question. Does anyone have studies?

There is a lot of talk here about this being a corporate plot and implying that big corporations are responsible. I don't know if that's true.

I suspect big corporations, being bureaucratic capitalist enterprises, have personnel departments to be sure their workers have things like social security numbers and other proof of citizenship. Am I wrong here?

I also suspect that many (most?) undocumented workers are employed in small, ma-and-pa-type businesses: restaurants, janitorial services, landscaping, contracting crews. If this is true, we're not talking about a handful of evil corporations but about tens of thousands of small businesses scraping along. Are these the people we want to punish?

I do realize that there are long-lived arrangements between big farmers and immigrants to ensure the fruits and vegetables get picked, but other than that, I'm unaware of any other industry actively soliciting illegal foreign labor. (Somebody mentioned Tyson's chicken once...)

Anyway, I was just thinking about who is the enemy here?


on edit: I realize some undocumented workers have fake documents. That raises new questions, like how far are employers supposed to go to verify immigration status?

[High Plains]

1. Gotta go watch the news. Back in an hour...

I hope someone has some good information.

[mdmc]

2. farmers, people with dogs in Brooklyn,

resturants.

Everywhere that is not unionized!

[sentelle]

51. not unionised?

really? Hmm, by and large, my industry is not unionised. Does that mean that uses scads of illegals?

I work in IT.

My thinking on this is as follows: Follow the money. He who benefits from illegals are the same ones who want the rules bent.

Who wants to enter the UK illegally? or France? Germany? Would you expect to be given rights in such a case? In some places you'd do time for that.

[mdmc]

67. If your in IT, then your big risk is outsourcing

If there was an IT union, perhaps there would be more American IT jobs, imho.

If you follow the "money", employers of illegals AND illegals benefit from having the rules bent.

Illegals are here to live peaceful profitable existence, not to commit crime.

As far as European immigration, they have lots of Eurasia immigration.

[sentelle]

91. You can't outsource the hands-on guy

My job is currently safe. I visit our customers, and do all the hands on stuff on our network. They went to me after they had their fill of consultants.

[SPKrazy]

3. Poultry Processing Plants, Mexican Restaurants, Lawn Services

I'm sure there are lots of other places, but these are the ones around here

[LibDemAlways]

43. From my experience in Southern California

undocumented workers are employed by restaurants - including large chain restaurants, car washes, hotels, retail stores, factories, nursing homes, and construction firms - to name a few off the top of my head. One day I happened to pull into a gas station affiliated with a car wash on what was apparently pay day. The owner set up a card table and the workers lined up to receive cash. It was all matter of fact.

Undocumented workers are also, of course, gardeners, nannies, and housekeepers in private homes and workers in the fields.

Many businesses and individuals in California rely on a steady stream of "illegal" workers.

[bullimiami]

4. wal mart. oh ok, wal mart subcontractors. slap on the wrist.

big business and big agra want virtual slave labor legalized.

[Steepler0t]

5. Good question

From what I have witnessed myself it is small businesses that are scraping by that hire undocumented people.

[Critters2]

6. The entire meat industry is COMPLETELY dependent on undocumented workers

Who's paying undocumented workers? YOU! Everytime you buy pork, chicken or eggs from anyone but a local farmer you know personally. Undocumented workers handle "production animals" from the moment they're born until they're hanging upside down in a slaughterhouse. These used to be good paying (if unpleasant) union jobs. No more, thanks to IBP, Tyson, Smithfield, De Coster, and others of their ilk.

edited for a spelling typo

[Critters2]

9. I might add

The book _Fast Food Nation_ gives good info on this.

[Heidi]

95. Thank you.

I don't believe most Americans know that we're silent co-conspirators in dependance on imported labor. Because of fear about their work status, language barriers, and dependant families in Mexico, Latino workers are much less likely than US citizens to demand fair wages, a safe work environment or to organize.

I don't understand the anger toward immigrants in these threads. The anger should be directed at the Republicans who busted the unions and the big companies who line their CEOs' pockets by exploiting immigrant labor, and frankly, all of us who've blindly enjoyed cheap meat.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=782303&mesg_id=782450

[babylonsister]

7. Many of us are 'the enemy':

restaurant workers where we eat, home/office/hotel cleaners, lawn maintenance people to name a few. I'm sure others will contribute.

[nolabels]

82. They are us, we are them, etc,etc,etc...

I know of quite a few at many levels that meld in to our metropolitan area in Southern California. Some are have been here so long that they have children that are adults and are great grandparents with large extended families. The documentation they lack even sounds like a crazy idea if you ask me. The actual only way to get a handle on the whole immigration thing is turn the entire country into a police state or something stupid like that. This whole load of crap about immigration is going nowhere even if they enact more laws

[TomInTib]

8. The hiring is across the board.

I cannot think of any segment of US business that doesn't utilize "illegals" in some way.

I am talking about business, not Law Enforcement, Courts and that sort of thing.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

10. Construction/contracting work, as well as agriculture, restaurants. Lotsa

people in California, AZ, TX who hire people to landscape, mow lawns, nanny for their kids etc.

Restaurant busboys, dishwashers...

Etc. Etc. Etc.

[Critters2]

11. How many politicians have gotten in trouble for hiring nannies

and housekeepers and not payin SS. Why do ya suppose they do that?

[Sgent]

88. This is a different issue

For instance, the Clinton's AG appointment that got nixed was not due to hiring an illegal alien -- but rather failure to withhold SS/Income taxes.

The reality is that until that incident, it was a major undertaking to do so, as someone who hired domestic workers had to meet all the filing requirements as IBM for employer withholding.

Today, its an extra line item on the 1040, so I imagine compliance is significantly up (but by no means 100%).

[randr]

12. In the small "bedroom" communities surrounding our major

ski resorts here in Colorado, you can find men and women lined up along the street each morning looking for employment. They are the maids, gardeners, construction laborers, prep cooks, and more to the wealthiest among us. Near Aspen alone an estimated 15,000 immigrants have moved in just in the last ten years. Local workers, such as bus drivers, have been required to learn Spanish. My guess is this situation is present across the land. I personally do not see this as a bad thing and recognize these folks have come here for the same reasons most of did not so long ago. For the most part they have become a part of the local small town communities and bring a fresh cultural tradition with them that enhances the whole scene.

[Critters2]

13. Who did those jobs before?

[MADem]

14. The Irish, the Italians, the Polish.....

Kids who dropped out of school...

[randr]

16. Ski bums

Drop outs and hippies mostly. Most of whom discovered the wealth available to them once they sobered up and are now, to a large degree, the establishment running the local businesses and sitting on the Chamber of Commerce. At one time, in the late 70's the unofficial title of the Aspen Business community was the Aspen Drug and Gun Club. Many of these same people would be loathe to have this part of their history exposed at the present time.

[gollygee]

15. There's a large meat processing plant north of here

that has been fined numerous times for employeeing illegal workers. They would have people apply for jobs and take photocopies of their social security cards and drivers licenses, but then not hire them, and then use that information on the I-9 forms for the undocumented workers.

[Critters2]

18. Yep, that's what they do!

They also budget for those fines. I have a friend who worked in the office of an egg factory. She said they just included the fines in their operating expenses line in their budget. It was still cheaper than paying a decent wage.

One of several reasons I no longer eat meat. Those bastards are not getting my hard-earned money.

[gollygee]

19. They deal with it like they do environmental violations

they know how much the fine is but they know it's worth it, financially, and they don't care about much else.

Everyone at DU should watch the documentary "The Corporation". It's really eye-opening.

[Critters2]

21. Yeah, environmental fines, employment practices fines,

all just a part of doing business. Doesn't affect the bottom line.

[Zookeeper]

58. ......

:wow:

[cantstandbush]

17. Damn!! I saw a few hands go up on the DU board. n/t

[Disturbed]

24. Fines on Corps don't deter them.

Prison time is needed.

[enfield collector]

52. you got that right

[maveric]

20. Restaurant/Hotel industry. Agricultural industry. Construction.

As well as common homeowners looking for cheap labor for home projects.
Thats what I see here in Socal.
IMHO, without this cheap labor, these industries would go bust or have to raise rates/prices.

[Critters2]

22. God forbid workers should be paid what they're worth

The fact is that if everyone were paid a decent wage, there'd be more money spent on consumer goods and service, enhancing the quality of life for everyone. Industries would raise prices, but more consumers would have more disposable income would pay those prices.

Higher wages are a win-win. I personally avoid businesses that I know, or strongly suspect, use undocumented workers.

edit...another typo

[maveric]

29. I agree with you.

But the fact is that with paying those wages, w/benefits for American workers, rates and produce prices would go through the roof.
unfortunately here in CA, its been working that way for 100 years or so.

[Critters2]

39. A rising tide lifts all boats

Increased wages for the lowest paid workers would nring more moeny into the economy, money spent on consumer goods and services. That would benefit everyone. I call it "trickle up".

People have got to get past this paralyzing fear of expensive lettuce!

[Bridget Burke]

46. Are you working on any Labor Issues....

That do not involve undocumented workers?

[Critters2]

55. Labor issues are labor issues

There are no labor issues that don't involve fairness for all workers.

[Bridget Burke]

65. Do you work in a union shop?

Have you demonstrated for fair wages for all?

Do you even have a job?

[Critters2]

89. I've been a shop steward for UNITE in the past.

Right now, I work for a church. Churches in this country are not generally organized (in more ways than one!), but I do what I can to support labor.

Do you have a job?

[Strelnikov_]

23. If Small Business Owners Are Knowingly Hiring Illegal Immigrants

paying substandard (below minimum) wages, and not complying with other workplace regulations, they deserve to be punished.

Or do we now just pick and choose which laws we comply with?

I want to protect citizens and legal immigrants right to earn a living wage without being undercut by the labor black market.

That said, I do understand the small business owners who feel they must hire illegals to stay competitive. If the competition is doing it, they must do it. Kind of like a form of the 'Tragedy of the Commons'. Also known as a race to the bottom.

That is why we need strict enforcement of employment and labor laws.

The Corporatists may not directly be involved to the scale of small business, but they actively promote it. The resultant downward pressure on wages applies across the board.

Real wages for the middle and lower class has not increased in, what 25+ years?

[sentelle]

53. I think you are being kind

Lets look at what crime is being committed shall we?

Why is an undocumented worker undocumented? Why can't they fill out an I-9? Do they have a driver's license and Social Security card?
It may well be that they are not authorised to work here.

Illegal immigration is a crime. This makes those who commit illegal immigration, Fugitives from Justice.

Crime #1. failure to prove that all workers are documented.
Crime #2. Aiding and abetting a fugitive.
If this is a larger company where more than one person knows about it, I believe it falls under RICO statutes.

Treat those who hire undocumented employees in this manner, and the problem will rectify itself.

[China_cat]

25. Wal Mart

and threatens to turn them in to INS if they complain about pay/hours, etc. They actually did turn in their illegals at one store near Chicago about 3 years ago.

[Critters2]

26. Oh, that, too is standard operating procedure for the factory farms

A few years ago, managers at egg and pork factories in North Central Iowa were regualry raping their women employees. They threatened to go to INS if they were reported. One woman (later 4) came to the domestic violence center where I sat on the board. They were assured by staff that the sheriff would deal with it as a criminal, not an immigration, issue. He did (a great sheriff!). The rapists were arrested. 3 went to prison and the company was fined. Which meant nothing to the company, but at least someone went to jail.

[raccoon]

94. My God. Thanks for posting that. As you said, at

least one of the bastards went to jail.

[kath]

27. My sister lives in central Ohio, where lots of Guatemalan immigrants

(illegal)work in the local poultry plant (big corporation but I forget which one). The managers at the plant know that the documents the workers present are obviously fake, but they don't give a shit.

[Critters2]

28. Honestly, if you eat meat,

you support the abuse of immigrants and the undermining of unions and the wages and benefits they helped build.

[VirtualChicano]

30. i do

i hire everyone and anyone, without discrimination, except that they must be clean and sober workers. i am an hvac contractor.

[newyawker99]

38. Hi VirtualChicano!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[VirtualChicano]

57. hello

hello and thank you for the welcome :)

[Finder]

73. Welcome to DU. n/t

[Yupster]

92. I'm sure I have too

We've used five or six differnt guys to do our lawns over the years. I've never asked them for social security numbers.

[fed-up]

31. Don't forget home health aides and nursing home aids n/t

[chaumont58]

32. I think my roofer did

Back in '97, upon retirement, I got my house ready to sell. Among other tasks, I put on a new course of shingles. I phoned a local roofer that I found in the phone book. He gave me an estimate I liked and I took it on the spot. When his crew showed up a few days later to do the job, all the workers were Hispanic. Some did not speak English. They worked hard and did a good job. I don't know for sure, but I have always suspected that the workers were illegals. They work cheap. The roofer charged me the same whether he had illegals or West Point graduates doing the work.

[LizW]

37. My neighbor's roofer, too

Of course, I have no idea whether the men were here legally or not, but I know that only one spoke English well enough to communicate with my neighbor. This is a good-sized, very reputable roofing company that has done lots of work in my neighborhood.

I do know that some of the large chain restaurants hire undocumented workers. My mom used to teach ESL at her church, and every time we went out to eat at Cracker Barrel and the like, one or two of her students would come over to say hello.

[no_hypocrisy]

33. Landscapers, esp. here in Bergen County (NJ).

The immigrants work like dogs from sunrise until after dark. The only interesting thing is some of them are pulling their money together, buying their own trucks and equipment and competing with their ex-bosses by underbidding them.

[notadmblnd]

34. it has been my experience that these big corporations

outsource jobs like cleaning and lawn maintenance to smaller (but still large) companies. They are the ones hiring the illegals. Large landscaping companies around where I live hire the illegals, rent houses to them and even sell them the uniforms they wear. They are virtually slaves and they don't even know it.

[Critters2]

40. The factory farm managers in central Iowa

even take 'em to church--not Catholic Churches, which would probably be the workers' tradition, but crazy fundie churches to which the factory farm managers belong. I've never understood why, but it's a common practice. I knew one worker who said he was afraid he'd be fired and/or deported if he didn't go. So, he went to mass on Saturday night and got on the bus to the fundie church on Sunday morning.

[notadmblnd]

44. I know what you're saying..

I had my son in a private religious school here. The church has gotten quite large over time. So large infact, they opened a separate church for Spanish speaking members. I also happen to know that the daughter of a prominent local pizza mogul (no it's not the dominoes guy) here in the area is very active in this church, a pastor in fact.

I know she has hispanic employees in her home, whether they are illegal or not I don't know; but, yeah it's how they do it.

[mitchum]

35. One word: motherfuckers

[Cleita]

36. Rich people hire a lot of them as gardeners and domestic

servants. It's easier to pay them in cash and pay them less. It's not only hispanics. There was a trend back in the seventies to bring scandanavian teenagers here on a visitor's visas as nannies. When the visas expired the girls became undocumented workers. I was surprised to find out that many of the girls only made a hundred dollars a month. Well, they got room and board, but still....

Also, day workers that are hired off of street corners are the most common way people hire undocumented workers.

[Critters2]

41. When I lived in Chicago,

I opined at a church dinner that I was thinking of paying to have my house cleaned a couple of times a month. All of a sudden, everyone was willing to help me out by putting me in touch with people who "had" (it sounded almost slave-like to me) "Polish ladies". And all my good church members assured me that, while the Polish ladies may not speak English which might be a problem, it was more than made up for in that they worked wicked cheap, for cash, with no SS.

I decided to just work harder at keeping my house clean myself.

[Zookeeper]

59. Me too.

I do my own lawn work, clean my own house and take care of my own kids. (I realize So. Californians may not be able to grasp this concept...and yes, I do have family there)

If I can't afford to hire a Union carpenter, plumber or electrician, I do on-line research or go to the library to figure out how to do the repair or project myself.

I would be a total hypocrite if I hired an illegal worker and paid slave wages.

[Finder]

77. Back in the 70s that was a good wage...

Room and board plus 100 a month.

[otohara]

42. Tom Tancredo

says he didn't know they were "illegals".


Tom Tancredo....another politician lying about the "help".

[John Barrett]

71. But they aren't ILLEGALS..... they're undocumented

If you listen to the pro-illegal immigrant forces in the US these Mexicans aren't illegals, they're just un- documented immigrants trying to make a better life for their family.

It's only in their homeland of Mexico where immigrants that enter illegally are treated not only as unwelcome illegals (not undocumented people looking for a better life), but TRULY as as CRIMINALS.

[Karenina]

45. Crazy celebrities

who demand they bring their children with them to work and then abuse
the children, knowing the domestics have NO RECOURSE. Such celebrities only get in trouble when they gravitate to targets with a paler skin hue.

[bleedingheart]

47. even big corporations hire illegals...but they do it subversively

for instance...I knew a fellow here on an H1B visa. His wife was not permitted to work. However she had a skill the company could use...so they paid her husband a much larger amount (almost double) in order to get her to work for them...all without having it documented.

[APPLE314]

48. Everyone who knowingly hires illegal alien should be jailed.

They are callously telling the rest of America to go f*** itself.

Remember boys and girls you are now competing with a new third world country within our own borders.

Do you wonder why you feel intimidated and are scared to death that tomorrow will be the day you lose your own job. If those businesses that hire illegal aliens would only pay them less maybe they would repatriate. Well, wake up, they are already lowering wages because the gates are being flung wide open as we talk and there's more aliens on the way. I wonder what will happen to wages? I wonder what kind of life our grandchildren will have.

It won't be long until the headlines in the news say "Nebraska declares a border crisis, being overrun by aliens. "

But, we are lucky because we still get to pick up the tab for their health, welfare, education, etc. and all those businesses that hired them are laughing all the way to their bank.

The problem is not a immigration problem, it is a unethical business problem.

[BurtWorm]

49. I've hired illegal immigrants.

It's not just the corporations.

[Critters2]

54. So, you wouldn't pay a fair wage?

[Iris]

64. He didn't say that.

[Finder]

74. Why assume a fair wage is not paid?

Most who hire undocumented workers that I know of pay more than minimum wage. You can argue whether 10 bucks an hour is a fair wage but for some it beats what some major corps are offering today.

[BurtWorm]

85. That's the neighborhood of what I paid.

[Critters2]

90. The poster admitted not offering benefits.

That's appalling. Especially from a Dem. We used to be the party of the working class.

[Finder]

93. Benefits cost money...

Small businesses rarely can afford many benefits to themselves much less documented or undocumented workers. How many mom and pop stores do you think pay benefits?

Using benefits as a litmus test is ridiculous. All small businesses would love to offer them but it is not realistic. Remember, most of these biz owners do not even have health insurance for themselves.

[BurtWorm]

84. I paid the most I could afford.

These were good people. Wonderful child care providers, too. I just couldn't afford benefits (except for paid vacations), but they were not interested in benefits. They were interested in getting paid.

This is the way the real world works in a society that doesn't provide free childcare as a rule.

[sweetheart]

50. awww, no need to look that far

I've hired illegal persons to mow the lawn, to clean the house,
and under contract to write software. You just do the contract
as if the person were a business, pay them well and fairly, and
you'll never have a more loyal employee... indentured servitude
is such leverage.

I did not import a guy to cut my lawn, but i did not ask when
the lawnmowing crew looked day-labour mexican.
I did not import a brazilian to clean my new york apartment,
but i did not ask to see any paperwork, the price was good and
so was the work.
I did not ask to see the papers of my dog walker either, who had
a very thick slavic accent, no worries, he was probably legal, or
maybe not.

The fact is, that *we* hire these people, not some faceless
corporations. You might not, but face the american fact that
people do hire illegals all the time, just by not asking, and
not wanting to be an arm of the immigration service.

[Lisa0825]

56. a lot of small business people, including my ex.

My ex had a recycling business, and he used to get day laborers to help him on labor intensive days. He paid them well, so they got to know him and watched for his truck. I used to drive past a major pick-up site for day laborers on my way to work, and it looked to me like it was mostly small businesses, like roofers, landscpaers, and painters who basically work out of their homes, and can't grow without hiring someone, but can't afford to pay all the stuff that goes on top of wages. I know my ex planned to hire permanent employees eventually, but he didn't feel he could make the jump at that point.

[Solly Mack]

60. Chicken plants in Georgia did - all the time

and for less of a starting wage, fewer raises, and less benefits.

They knew they would avoid joining the union for fear of being found out as an illegal. (though some did join)

They took advantage of the immigrants coming in and used them to weaken the unions. (among other things)
I certainly don't blame the immigrants for that - I blame the businesses.

The plants also advertised in Mexico - TV ads as well as fliers. "Come to _______ and work"

I know this for a fact - as I was a contract negotiator at a plant in __________, Georgia.

Read this: http://www.h-net.org/~business/bhcweb/publications/BEHonline/2003/Weinberg.pdf

[Hekate]

61. Agribusiness; just heard that 70% of crops in Calif are farmed by illegals

Someone on Olbermann tonight was flinging numbers around. That's a huge amount. Unbelievable.

The other posters are right about the chicken processing plants, too. PBS -- probably Bill Moyers -- did a documentary on this a couple of years ago. When the foreman needs a new crew, he knows who to ask at the plant, and that person (let's call him Juan) puts out the word back home that X number of workers are needed. And in two weeks, they are there.

Hekate

[Hekate]

62. Also, your middle class neighbor lady: the gardener and cleaning lady...

Sure, they're on your street. The gardener and cleaning lady are often referred from friend to friend, and it's the rare householder who even witholds taxes, much less checks for papers.

The average person can get along without that kind of occasional help, but home health aides and aides in nursing homes are indispensible. Immigrants are taking care of our most vulnerable citizens, and once again, it's such a low-paying non-benefitted form of employment that it pretty much begs for the already exploited to be hired.

Hekate

[misternormal]

63. The truth of the matter is...

Anyone that is running a business that prefers not to pay their workers a living wage. The illegal immigrants tend to share living space, so with the numbers that might occupy one house, the number of people who work help to pay the bills.

The statement by the Prez and his cronies concerning "Jobs that Americans will not do", is absurd, and not based in fact.

In California, there are a ton of migrant farm workers, but they seem to be relatively well paid... (If anyone has any conflicting info on that, I would like to hear it please).

I have no problem personally with immigrants, most of us that live here are offspring of immigrants of some sort, and we would not be here if they did not immigrate.

My problem is with those that hire illegals so that they do not have to pay a living wage.

[Joe Fields]

66. I worked for a major lawn and garden company in the K.C. area

briefly, around the turn of the century that was fined 250,000 dollars for hiring over 300 illegal workers.

May I just add that the experience I had with them at that time was enlightening. These are extremely hard working, family oriented individuals.

And having worked side by side with many Mexicans in the restaurant business for a number of years, I would hire a whole staff of them, if possible. They are polite, and work harder than most Americans I have worked with.

[Radio_Guy]

68. Subcontractors

The area university is building some buildings and much of their labor are illegal immigrants. I have talked with many of them and they are just glad to be here making a living to send back to their family. Hard workers, too. They will be out there in the cold, the sun, the heat. It is too bad they aren't unionized so they could make a living wage here in the States instead of having to send it back to Mexico to have a decent living.

[John Barrett]

69. But they work harder than us lazy Americans

I keep hearing the subtle and not so subtle ( from La Raza, etc) racist put downs to the American worker and how the illegals work harder for less, and that should make us accept them and feel good about it.

So do you believe that they'll continue working harder than "Americans" (yes those who were born here or came here legally with citizenship and consider themselves Americans) after they've been bestowed legal status and all the rights that supposedy provides? Who was it that invented the Siesta? Actually I think it's a damn good idea...but don't give me this crap that they have a better work ethic than Americans.

[Radio_Guy]

75. I think they work harder for what they are getting paid

From my experience, most people who work minimum wage jobs put minimum effort into their work. They figure if they aren't going to get more for working harder, why should they work harder? Of course there are exceptions. The illegal immigrants aren't like that. They are just happy to have the job and they show their pride by working hard.

So what do we do about it? We could raise the minimum wage so people making, say, 1 1/2 times what they are now will put at least 1 1/2 times the effort into their work, maybe more. But as long as subcontractors get away with paying less than minimum wage and under the table to illegals without paying taxes on it, and as long as big corporations and governments use these subcontractors, Unions will suffer and American citizens not willing to work for minimum wage and less will suffer.

[John Barrett]

86. Wish I could buy into it

I wish I could buy into that. People work hard because of either work ethic, or because they must work hard to keep a job. They depend on the level of compensation that the job provides.

For illegal immigrants in the USA if they don't have a job, they don't get paid, as they aren't eligible for the safety net that US citizens enjoy. Let's get real.... most US citizens, if they wish or have no work ethic, can get away with doing nothing by gaming the system for public assistance unemployment etc. Don't tell me it doesn't happen because I know those that work the system.

Getting back to the illegals, they work hard because (1) they are getting paid what is to them a very good wage even if it is less than US minimum wage. and (2) because they have to work hard or they won't get hired. My point was that once they've become legal and eligible for the US safety net, they won't be so apt to be such hard workers putting everything into it as they must now do.

[Joe Fields]

97. Do you base your opinion on fact?

Or is this something you just inherantly believe? I can speak from what I have seen. And what I have seen, having worked in the lawn care and restaurant business, is that there almost ALL of the Mexicans that I have worked with(and it is a considerable number I have worked with) work harder than almost ALL Americans I have worked with.

Many of these Mexicans ARE here legally, do hold down two jobs, want to buy into the American dream, and do what it takes to make it a reality.

THAT's what I have seen first hand.

Also, there are many who are here legally, but not citizens yet, who are here for one year periods of time, then have to go back home, apply for extensions, then come back. Not only are they here, alone, without the support of their families, but they have taken English courses, work two jobs, send most of their money back home to their families, so that they will be able to join them here in America at a later date. LEGALLY.

How many Americans would do THAT?

[OnionPatch]

70. There are things that can be done to help small businesses without

allowing them to dodge the immigration laws.

How about a tax structure that actually helps SMALL businesses? And how about some universal health care so small businesses can afford to hire people legitimately?

The more I think about this whole thing, the more ticked I get: It seems to me the cons want it both ways: Free Trade, free markets, no borders for their products or consumer base, because that impedes the flow of free trade! But when the actual employees start moving around at will for their own advantage, it's a different story: Man the borders!! Bring in the laws and regulations!!

[Finder]

72. Large Corporations hire contractors who hire illegals...

but rarely directly. It is mostly small businesses, farms, etc. as you mentioned, who hire undocumented workers. Also, homeowners will often hire domestic services through this channel.

I am sure there are greedy types who do this to save a few bucks, but most I know do it to help. Although the focus is on the latinos in the current debate, undocumented aliens from many countries have made their home in communities who assist them. That is why there is such an outrage over the criminalizing of helping. In most cases the churches in the community are the hiring centers.

Back in the 70s we called them DPs(displaced persons)and helping an immigrant family through employment and such was a good thing.

[cap]

79. that's a joke.... no one does this to help out...

except Jews helping Russian Jews....Those are the only ones who are taking care of their own.

Remember, we used to hire teen aged kids as "Mother's Helpers" and Babysitters. I dont know anyone who hires a 12-14 year old anymore. Or kids to shovel snow or do yard work. Now we can get adults to live 10 to an apartment and have them at our beck and call. American adults will not live in those conditions.

[Finder]

80. Not exactly...

Polish communities, Latino communities, Italian communities, Irish communities take care of their own as you put it.

In the burbs, mother's helpers and such are still the norm. In my community, we exchange our kids to work for each other. My son will chop wood one week, do inventory at the local variety store, shovel snow, mow lawns, stuff envelopes, etc. He even did a stint as a product tester for a major corp recently.

Communities help those in the community.

[Catchawave]

76. Halliburton !

Halliburton subcontractor hires illegal immigrants for Katrina work
21 Oct. 2005
WASHINGTON, Oct. 21 (HalliburtonWatch.org) -- As many as 100 undocumented immigrants have been hired by a Halliburton subcontractor to clean-up areas damaged by Hurricane Katrina, a United States senator revealed.

Sen. Mary Landrieu (D-LA) accused Alabama-based BE&K of illegally hiring the workers after Halliburton awarded a subcontract to the firm to repair naval bases damaged by the hurricane.

The Associated Press reported that Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents have detained the workers for violating immigration laws.

"It is a downright shame that any contractor would use this tragedy as an opportunity to line his pockets by breaking the law and hiring a low-skilled, low-wage and undocumented work force," Landrieu said in a statement. She urged the Department of Homeland Security to investigate what she called a "chronic" use of undocumented workers by government contractors involved in Katrina cleanup.

more... http://www.halliburtonwatch.org/news/katrina3.html

[BlackVelvet04]

78. Personnel departments often don't care.

"I suspect big corporations, being bureaucratic capitalist enterprises, have personnel departments to be sure their workers have things like social security numbers and other proof of citizenship. Am I wrong here?"

Yes, you are. I worked for a major hotel chain who employed many illegals...they ran a van to another town 40 miles away to bus them in. It was "don't ask, don't tell."

[Minnesota Libra]

81. If there isn't any teeth in the issue of illegal aliens ...............

.....to discourage hiring illegal aliens what's the use of having an immigration policy at all. At that point we might as well just open the border and have it over with.

On the other hand, Canada might have something to say about that approach, they just tightened their immigration laws a couple of years ago.

It doesn't matter if it is "mom and pop" or corporations, there should be STRONG ENCOURAGEMENT for hiring only legal workers and especially ONLY legal AMERICAN workers.

Yes, I know this is not the most progressive/liberal stance on the issue. All I can say is :shrug:

[Neil Lisst]

83. Big businesses and small businesses. Top half revenue Americans.

Gardeners, guys to build that new fence or pour a wider driveway, cooks, waitresses, bus boys, kitchen workers, pickers, highway construction workers, and on and on.

The contractors who put up houses, install air conditioners, erect big buildings - all use them.

[John Barrett]

87. A Good Read

The guy that wrote this below hit the nail right on the head.

The Mexicans that cross our borders are not being replaced. We have reports of villages where there are now only women, children and old men remaining. All of the young men have "gone to America". Other reports say that 90% of Mexicos villages, towns and cities have suffered population losses.

Why are they leaving? There are two very good reasons and both point directly at Free trade, NAFTA and the Mexican Government itself. NAFTA and free trade has precipitated movements by the Mexican Government to allow the mega agro businesses to swallow up small farms, displacing the little farmers. Free trade has flooded Mexico with American corn, a basic staple in Mexico, which undersells Mexican corn and has essentially collapsed the local corn Market. Those peaseants having nothing to do migrate to the USA. Vicente Fox absolutely encourages them to leave and does everything possible to facilitate it.

The two Mexican Presidents preceding Vicente Fox, Carlos Salinas and Ernesto Zedillo collapsed Mexicos economy, caused a world crisis, depression in Mexico, and raging inflation. Much of the problem can be laid at the doorstep of Mexico whose government was corrupt, incompetent and risky. Mexico issued bonds that paid 12%. Foreigners "arbitraged", *( borrowed money at 5% and invested in the bonds whose yield was 12% ). Mexico couldn't pay when the bonds came due and the peso fell. Mexicans who had mortgages and loans out for automobiles and household items suddenly lost half of their money. Mexicans found themselves bankrupt. The economy went into a tail spin. Prices skyrocketed. The peso fell 50% against the dollar. Mexican commercial banks money supply shrank from $17 billion to $6 billion. Interest rates rose from 15% to 130 % in two months. Businesses failed, unemployment and personal bankruptcy quickly followed.

Robert Rubin, Bill Clintons Treasury Secretary, made an infusion of 25 billion dollars to cover Mexico's trade deficit and to pay foreign investors in the Mexican bonds *( tesobonos ) that were coming due. The Mexican economy was in a severe recession. It was the steepest recession since the Great Depression. Mexico's middle class was devastated. Half the population fell into poverty. People who had borrowed $50,000 found that they now owed $100,000. Banks stopped repossessing cars because they ran out of space to store them. The Mexican economy still has not recovered.

Jorge Castaneda, former radical Marxist foreign Minister under Fox said: " The fund managers and stock brokers in New York knew what they were doing when they invested in Mexican stocks and received colossal returns; they were taking a risk. Now thanks to the package *( bail out infusion of money from Clinton and Rubin ) the cost of the risk ( which produced lavish returns for 2 or 3 years ) has been transfered completely to the Mexican taxpayer.

These are elements of the great rush to America. Free trade, NAFTA, Mexico's economy. Apparently Bush is willing to turn a blind eye while Mexicans remit $20 billion annually back home. And Vicente Fox is willing to act like a Mafia godfather.

The numbers of Mexicans in the USA presently are an elusive figure and subjet to much guesswork. The figures range from 6 million to 11 million to 20 to 23 million. Let's break it down. How much does a Mexican really earn ? A day laborer earns about $8,000 to $9,000 annually. If you watch them most do not actually work. But lets say they do put in 150 days a year. They will earn $750 a month with rent and food costing $700 per month. Why are they even here. Who is subsidizing them. What's going on. A steadily employed person earns more. How much do they remit back home monthly ? I spoke to some who said their rent was $400 per month, they spent $300 monthly on food and sent home $300 monthly to the family. That's 12 x $300 = $3,600 per year.

20 billion dollars sent each year. $20,000,000,000,/3600 = 5.55 million Mexicans

If there were 23 million illegals sending 20 billion dollars annually: That is $869 a year or $72 per month.

One would ask, why are they even here for a lousey $72 per month ?

Part of the answer may be:

Free education 7th thru 12th grade.

Free medical treatment at clinics and hospitals.

Medicaid.

Food stamps.

Handouts from churches and charities.

Prenatal care.

Federal, state and local county/town benefits.

An illegal alien woman was found to have 6 anchor babies *( jackpot babies ). Her annual income from all sources was valued at $50,000. *( source Susan Tully FAIR ).

In California the annual cost of illegal immigration is $1,200 per each person in additional taxes.

The GAO had estimated two years ago that illegal immigration would cost each American $50,000 over his/her lifetime. The levels of aliens had ascended sharply since then. And Bush, Specter, Kennedy, McCain want to open the flood gates.

Who will reap the profits: The elite,mega, multinational globalists.

Who will suffer: Americas working man, doomed to losing his workplace due to outsourcing, floods of foreign competition after his job, sliding into the abyss and more and more foreigners piling up in stacking houses, infiltrating more and more businesses and standing on the street of every village and town in America. *( Framingham, Massachusetts, population 70,000, now has 20,000 Brazilian illegal aliens 1/3 of it's population ). What do Bush, Specter, Kennedy expect from the natives of Framingham ?

Saturation is saturation, supersaturation only assures destruction.

Bill Tibbe

[kurth]

96. Small business owners who listen to Rush Limbaugh

I kid you not. I know several. They drive very nice vehicles and live a very good Republican life.