"illegally immigrated persons" if I may...

[skids]

That's the term I've finally decided to go with, as I did here. One microscopic step towards kicking the debate out of the perpetual orbit that I'm sure Karl Rove would prefer it remain in.

The PC folks hate "illegals" and some are even extreme enough to dislike "illegal immigrants."

And then the rest detest the "undocumented worker" euphemism.

I think the above is good common ground. It makes the point that these are, yes, people, while still retaining the point that the process by which they came to reside in this country was, no, not legal. It also makes it easier to express that many people share responsibility for immigrating them -- important both because we tend to forget that some small portion therein are pretty much captive slaves who did not jump the fence voluntarily, and the historical contributing factors that created the motivation for people to be illegally immigrated.

We owe it to ourselves as a country not to allow this debate to churn on and on making no progress, wrung dry of any real meaning by a media spin cycle, with politicians cherry-picking fleece out of the lint trap.

[countryjake]

1. Whatever description they may have fit, due to past deeds...

they are now, clearly, people working in America. No politician, xenophobe, or progressive can successfully deny that fact.

Now, unless we support a move by our country to deploy some imaginary military force to round up those millions who now live and work here, in order to remove them or detain them, or, more precisely, advocate a military, law-and-order crazed state, these people will continue to work here.

Talk with anyone who works with INS or the Border Control, you will learn that deportation is rarely successful; if there are loved ones on this side of the border, the deportee always comes back. Not because they are captive slaves "immigrated" by some evil force, but due to the pull of family ties. These same guys will also tell you how many millions of dollars have already been spent trying to "enforce" border security over the years and how many gazillions of dollars it will take to actually accomplish any sort of "integrity" to that imaginary line.

What I liked was your very last line, in which you say that we must be diligent in trying to find common ground (you were talking party politics there) but I think there really is little searching needed, if anyone in Washington would readily admit that these are working people in America. Tracing work histories, investigating social security numbers used, charging taxes, doling out fines, weeding out actual criminals is all well and good, but simply declaring that these people are due the respect and have the right to be treated humanely, just like any other worker in our country, would bring the main obstacle forward immediately.

The system of slavery had to be attacked head-on in this country to destroy it and it took a hundred years for its survivors to gain meager civil rights. It's a sordid blot in the history of this nation. Now, we're looking at an underclass of 10 million or so, with no rights, living as furtive "producers" within our society. How our nation handles them will also be recorded.

[RagingInMiami]

2. I don't see anything wrong with the term "illegal immigrant"

But I have issues with the term "illegal alien". That one makes me cringe.

[countryjake]

3. That's the word still most commonly used up here...

but without the "illegal" part, since most have lived here as long or longer than many other of our county's residents, so status isn't certain. If one snarls at the use of "alien", the offender will look at you funny and change it to "beaner" or "pea viner".

[RagingInMiami]

4. Up where?

The word "alien" is still the official word used by the Government. It's no wonder they are treated as if they're from another planet.

[countryjake]

8. Clear up on the "other border"...

in Washington state. Our county is agricultural, with about 25% Chicano in a population of 100,000. The economy would collapse here, if we lived a day without a "Mexican". Most were originally migrants, but have either settled or made this their "home base"

[skids]

9. How would your economy do...

...if you had to pay them all minimum wage?

And as a followup, what does that say about your economy?

[countryjake]

10. It says that the small farmer is on America's shit-list...

just like most other "unprofitable" ventures that the right-wing machine is crushing at this time. These are three and four generation family owned farms, been here ever since the dikes were first built, now struggling just to break even.

Last time I checked there were laws about not paying Americans the minimum wage and I'm not paying "them" anything, they are my friends and neighbors, farmers and farmworkers, alike.

The agri-businesses are hovering with baited-breath, like the vultures they are, just waiting for the day they can move into our fertile valley and transform it from rural into major corporate enterprises. Our county is famous for its tulip fields and one of those farms went under just last year, another is talking about how hard it has become; one of our largest pickle farmers has been struggling since they lost a major buyer and with his vast fields, it's simply a matter of time before some corporation buys him out.

[sandnsea]

5. They are currently undocumented workers

Sensenbrenner's bill would make them illegal, punishable with prison.

If someone immigrated here illegally with $10 million in their pocket, nobody would care. The immigration isn't the issue. The work is the issue, undocumented workers who are paid substandard wages and consequently drive all wages down and need social services as well. We need to stay focused on the work and poverty part of the equation, the immigration isn't really relevant.

[RagingInMiami]

6. If someone immigrated here illegally with $10 million in their pocket

It would probably be some Saudi doing business with Bush.

[sandnsea]

7. That'd be $10 billion

And they'd be illegal for about ten seconds.