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I'm surprised nobody is talking about "insourcing".

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mwb970 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 01:06 PM
Original message
I'm surprised nobody is talking about "insourcing".
Bush and others keep saying that illegal immigrants "do the jobs Americans won't do". But my understanding is that the these immigrants work for extremely low wages, dragging American workers' salaries down. It isn't that Americans "won't do" these jobs, it's that they pay so little that they are not worth doing, unless you are illegal and have no choice (and no voice).

Jobs that go to illegal immigrants instead of Americans have been "insourced". Bush and his business buddies love this, since they can pay less and make more profits. But as usual, it's a bad deal for the American worker.
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Blaq Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
1. Bush is talking about jobs most American's CAN'T do...
and actually live a decent life. I'm curious what they're going to do when these 11 million illegals need healthcare. Will the government wheel them back to Mexico in stretchers? Just curious.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Senselessbrenner already thought of that
and, ever mindful that his hospital stocks might decline if the hospital gets socked for too much charity care, he's introduced a bill to make it a crime to help an illegal immigrant in any way (this outlawing Christianity).

Cheap labor conservatives are causing this problem. It's time to focus on THEM, not the poor guys who sneak across the border to live in conditions the average suburban dog wouldn't consider while they do our grunt work for less than it takes to keep us alive.
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. All Cross, No Christ.
It's the "American Christianity" we have all come to know and love since November 3, 2000.

All Cross, no Christ.

Xianity.

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megatherium Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
2. Krugman, in his NY Times column yesterday, discusses this.
He says there is evidence that the immigrants are depressing wages.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. sorry I missed that article.
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dogday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #2
29. That is the law here for outsourcing
Say someone advertises for a plumber who will work for $6.00 an hour... No self respecting plumber in this country will work for that, so they insource workers from India and Pakistan to work for that amount and it is legal to do here.... I think it sucks!!!!
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Taxloss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
5. How much would you have to earn to scrub toilets for a living?
Remember, that wage expense is simply passed on to the people who pay for the service - consumers or taxpayers. Illegal immigration keeps prices low in a capitalist society. Under capitalism in a shrinking demographic curve, you can restrict or ban immigration, and while wages may stay level or rise somewhat, prices will rise much faster. So it's swings and roundabouts.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. Mothers kicked off welfare
would be delighted to scrub toilets for ten bucks an hour. So would students who are desperate for part time jobs so they don't have to go so deeply into debt for an education. So would elderly folks who are looking to supplement their social security after their pensions have been stolen.

Scrubbing toilets is calm, quiet work. I've scrubbed my share of toilets and would consider doing it again if it paid a decent wage. My back could handle Lysol and a johnny mop. It can't handle critical care nursing any more.

Tying inflation to decent wages is another right wing lie. The inflation of the 70s was due to the oil shocks, and the inflation today is the same. The pipeline is choked with goods and services. What is increasingly missing is the consumer base, thanks to decades of cheap labor conservatism from both parties. There are many causes of inflation other than that "too much money chasing too few goods" rubric.

Inflation has been continuing apace even with the massive suppression of wages we've seen over the last 30 or so years. If you want to know what inflation would be without all those cheaper hands in Indonesia making our t-shirts, look at housing and health care, both of which are 100% American made.

We've come to the end of the cheap labor conservatism choo choo train, and the destination is an unpleasant one. It's past time to do something else.

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Blaq Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #15
25. Economy booms when wages increase
People spend money when they have money. If low wages were so good for the economy, then Mexico's economy should be far much better than the US. The conservatives can't seem to grasp the concept of equal pay for equal work. In essence, they want to bring back slavery. I'm sure the Mexican community wouldn't want to work generations after generations in these slave-like condiitons. They WILL rise.
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #15
28. Great post, Warpy, and you made a great point here:
"If you want to know what inflation would be without all those cheaper hands in Indonesia making our t-shirts, look at housing and health care, both of which are 100% American made."

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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
6. We could renounce our citizenship to get those jobs then?
Is that what he wants us to do?
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #6
30. I'm sure the the employers will hire you if
you are willing to get paid under the table at a wage lower than the legal minimum.
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catmother Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
7. well i'll talk about it.. there are some big companies who bring
people here from india. these people get apartments near the company so they can walk to work. they share apartments, 4 or 5 to an apartment. they buy 1 used car to get around for other things and they share that. now these are highly skilled technical jobs that i'm talking about -- mostly in the computer area. now whereas the normal employee might be paid $40.00 an hour, they pay the people from india about $15.00 an hour. i don't know if they give them benefits -- probably just medical. so do the math. you can sit outside any of these companies early in the morning and see hundreds of people from india going to work. it makes you sick, but, we can't get mad at the them. this is good money by their standards and sharing apartments and a car enables them to save some money or send it home.:cry:
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Taxloss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. ... And you get lower prices in return.
That's the problem. The problem isn't immigration - it's capitalism, consumerism.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. sometimes yes, and sometimes no
sometimes it is just to boost profits, and doesn't effect the cost to consumers. A related (outsourcing, rather than insourcing) example - a number of years ago a local GE plant threatened to move the production line for energy efficient refrigerators to Mexico if the Union didn't make concessions (and I think the city had to make concessions, as well)... woohoo the Union and City agreed. Well shortly thereafter - the decision to move the plant afterall was made "in order to be more competitive" (which one assumes means lower price or keep price the same) - but in the period after the move - there was no drop in prices (to be "more" competitive) and over time the prices continued to rise. Ergo - the company saved monies - but not to keep prices down - instead to pump profits (which were record highs at the time sometime between 2000 and 2002).
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Taxloss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. But that's a different deal.
Relocation would have cost the plant dear - it was playing brinkmanship to win concessions. Propbably because its workforce is unionised and it can't rely on cheap immigrants.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #12
24. They one the concessions - and then still moved
my point isn't that - it is that it was all done in the name of making the product "more competitive" *suggesting lower prices in the stores* - which never happened even after the "cost-cutting" move to cheaper labor in Mexico.
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catmother Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. right. the company makes more money --- bigger bonuses go
to the guys on top.:-(
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catmother Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. now these companies also have customers -- in essence they're
outsourcing their work and they know about the people from india and they want a cheaper price so instead of being billed $200.00 an hour -- they're billed at a much lower rate. so when they give out the contract it's specified that they want the people from india. my husband is in this field and sees first hand what's going on. he worries about his job being outsourced, but right now he has skills that not many people have. :scared:
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Dr. Jones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #7
21. Yep...
No kidding - ain't that the damn truth.
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BlackHeart Donating Member (294 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
11. How bad are things in Mexico
that people want to come here, and apparently can get by on less than minimum wage?
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catmother Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. it must be bad. i was in acapulco many years ago and couldn't
believe the poverty. little kids on the street would come up to me and say "un peso". i asked someone how much a peso was and they said about 5 cents.

on the other hand i've also been to haiti and it was even worse there, but it's harder to get across water than land -- even though some of them manage to get here.:cry:
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. They live in conditions we wouldn't force on a stray dog
and most stay here for about two years, saving every nickel and dime they can. When they go back to Mexico, they exchange their few dollars for pesos and that can translate into enough to start a small business, like a street food stand.

They come here because the peso is a disadvantaged currency. The dollars they save here are magnified many times in purchasing power when they go back to Mexico.

I've been to Mexico, too, and seen that kind of poverty. There are colonias here in New Mexico that rival any slum in Juarez. I'm talking old, leaking trailers or camper cabs on blocks, no running water, no sanitation, no electricity, just a box to keep the rain off and an open fire outside for cooking. I'm talking tents made of discarded bedspreads, a few pieces of sheet metal leaning together to form a shelter, tarpaper and boards.

This seems to be what the present cheap labor conservatives want for all of us here in the US, too. They certainly don't feel that hard work should support any of us.

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catmother Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. it always amazes me that in this country people are forced to
live that way. not just mexicans, but really poor people whose children go to be hungry at night.
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mwb970 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. Apparently lots of countries are like this.
I heard a woman talking about life in El Salvador on progressive radio today. It sounded pretty bad.
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Blaq Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #11
26. I hope things change when Mexico elects a leftist leader
They need someone like Hugo Chavez to clean up the place, educate the children, and provide medicine to the people. His name is Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador.

Leftist increases lead in Mexico election: poll
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Dr. Jones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 01:48 PM
Response to Original message
18. YES YES YES!
Amen!

PISSES ME OFF TO NO END!!
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bleedingheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
20. they key to this type of insourcing is to not allow them citizenship
because then they would have protections under the law ...enabling them to strike..etc

so they are kept in limbo...working for wages better than those in their countries of origin but still too low for a decent standard of living here.
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dogday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
23. I have a friend who goes to a small town in Mississippi
He said when he went to the Walmart there, he felt like he was in another country.. All Indians and Pakistanis in the store.... We don't always see the insourcing, but it is there....
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #23
31. Were the Indians & Pakistanis working at WalMart?
Or were they customers?

If they were not ILLEGAL, your friend's problem is xenophobia or racism.
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dogday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. They were workers and customers
and replacing Americans jobs with the new Guest Worker program... It is an observation only on his part... Not everything is about race, this is more about jobs and workers....
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. Let me know more about the Guest Worker program....
H1-B visas?
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dogday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. See Post #29
It takes jobs from working Americans at a higher rate and brings in "Workers" from other countries to do the job for half the cost...
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. OK. I'd like to see the evidence about Indian plumbers....
I know quite a few Indians in this country. But they mostly work in science & technology. At the same pay scales as US citizens.
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dogday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. Excuse me, it was a hypothetical using that
job... It could be if they wanted it to, it may not be now... It was a hypothetical.. I did not make this up...
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. OK. Your friend was upset at seeing a bunch of non-Americans....
However, he doesn't know squat about their legal status.
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dogday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. The word legal was never used
nobody used the word legal.... They are legal workers... I don't know what you mean...
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. If not "illegal"--you said these workers got special consideration.
That is, they worked for less than US citizens. Like the $6/hour plumber.

If that's not right, all we know is that foreign-looking people were patronizing WalMart & working there. Too bad, because I hate the place.
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dogday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 11:34 AM
Response to Original message
27. That has also been my thought along with outsourcing
That is where our jobs are!! Those are the jobs Americans had and now do not.... That is the issue... Bringing more and more immigrants to this country to do our jobs at lower rates...
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porphyrian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
33. We have to protect corporate profits above all.
I'm sorry, that's total horseshit. I was going to be sarcastic, but then I threw up a little in my mouth. I'll stop now.
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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 02:25 PM
Response to Original message
38. Not just a "bad deal" -- exploiting workers violates basic American Values
Edited on Wed Mar-29-06 02:30 PM by pat_k
The first step in finding a solution that serves the common good on immigration (or anything else for that matter) is to look at the problem from a new perspective -- one that is grounded in some basic truths and moral principles. I've taken a stab at outlining such an approach.

But, we can't begin to make progress until we impeach Bush and Cheney and purge the new American fascists from our public institutions ((Impeachment First)). Only then can we effectively engage in the messy -- but democratic -- process of dealing with this and other critical problems.

Controlling our borders isn't really about control; it's about values

"Controlling our borders" means more than erecting barriers or patrolling. Controlling our borders is about making a commitment to act in a manner that is consistent with our values.

When we set employment standards we are expressing our values. Those standards reflect our belief that all human beings have a right to be treated fairly.

As long as we allow ANY workers to be exploited within our borders, we disgrace ourselves. As long as we turn a blind eye to the violations committed by people who enter illegally or remain after their visa expires, we demonstrate hypocrisy.

Guest worker programs have a place, but too often; such programs have been used to give employers a ticket to pay substandard wages and subject workers to unsafe conditions. We cannot tolerate programs that set different standards for "guests."

To be consistent with American values, we need to "just say no" to the exploitation workers -- documented or not. Continuing to permit predatory employers to operate within our borders will only drive more and more of Us and "Them" into poverty.

Controlling our borders with the stroke of a pen

Building a wall takes time. We don't need to wait. We can effectively control immigration with the stroke of a pen by passing legislation that includes two basic elements:
  • Going after predatory employers.

  • Offering a path to citizenship for whistleblowers and their families.

Specifically:
  • Expand the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) to cover every business and individual employer, whether they employ documented or undocumented workers.
    Conditions and terms of employment must meet FLSA and safety requirements for any wage earner who meets the criteria that would require reporting under IRS rules (e.g, the IRS threshold this year is $1500 for most of work).

  • Criminalize predatory employment practices.
    Predatory employers who are violating FLSA, violating OSHA standards, and evading taxes must be subject to prosecution and mandatory prison time.

  • Whistleblower immigration amnesty.
    Clear processes for workers to report predatory employers and maintain anonymity throughout the course of investigation. Whistleblowers who are undocumented (whether an individual or a group) are offered a path to citizenship.

  • Increase resources and create special units as required
    Affected agencies would include the Dept of Labor Wage and Hour Division, Dept of Justice, OSHA, IRS, and INS. The Wage and Hour Division is probably the logical agency to oversee the handling of charges against predatory employers, including preliminary investigation, referral to Justice for investigation and prosecution, referral to IRS, and coordination with INS to process undocumented whistleblowers and other undocumented workers.

Making implicit costs explicit

The harmful effects of supporting an underground economy are costly to the nation. When we "just say no" to the exploitation workers, some implicit costs will be made explicit. Americans have a choice. We can invest our tax dollars to our common benefit, or bear the costs -- both moral and monetary -- of exploiting other human beings.

If we choose make predatory employers the prime target, we can ensure the survival of vital "underground economy" sectors by providing transitional supports. We can offset increased costs of goods or services to the working class through tax credits. (Should be part of shifting the costs of citizenship from those who benefit the least from our common infrastructure to those who benefit the most.)

Radically changing the rules of the game

If predatory employers faced serious penalties, and the undocumented workers they are exploiting benefited from blowing the whistle, we would significantly increase the risk of exploiting workers.

The threat of exposure and prosecution alone will be sufficient for many to revamp their operations. In some sectors, the predators may simply move operations offshore. In others, predators may be forced out of business. As noted above, it may serve the public interest to provide transition assistance or start up assistance for replacement businesses.

Undoubtedly, a significant percent of undocumented workers would continue to evade detection, but employers would be far less likely to exploit them. If the workers are making a fair wage, the "race to the bottom" has a lower limit and the negative effect on wages is reduced.

We have a right enforce immigration law and deport violators

There are situations in which our interests are best served by providing an alternative to deportation. Nevertheless, if it does not serve a public interest to provide an alternative we should not hesitate to deport those who violate immigration laws.

We have a right to enforce our immigration laws. When we shift our focus to predatory employers, we are not forfeiting that right.

Offering legal status to whistleblowers serves us in two vital ways -- it deters predatory employers and it gives authorities vital resources "on the ground" who are motivated to expose those who are not deterred.

Targeting predatory employers creates a new class of unemployable undocumented workers If we do not institute a program that offers an opportunity to achieve legal (employable) status to those who are displaced, the deportation and support costs are likely to rise to intolerable levels.

If we decide that minimizing competition for jobs is worth the costs associated with deportation, the number of families who are offered legal status could be limited by entering those who qualify a "lottery" of sorts. It may seem harsh to allow chance to determine who stays and who goes, but deportation must remain the default consequence of breaking our immigration laws.

Conclusion

Our underground economy makes the United States very attractive to people who are struggling to survive in their own countries. We can change the dynamics right now and virtually eliminate the underground economy, and in the process, minimize the incentive to enter this country unlawfully.

Saying no to the exploitation of workers is central to controlling our borders. Radically changing the rules of the game makes other aspects of controlling immigration more manageable, but it does not eliminate the need for them. We still need to do a better job of tracking the foreign nationals who come here to work, study, or visit. We still need to make our border with Mexico as impenetrable as possible, while weighing the costs against the benefits.

We cannot continue to hypocritically turn a blind eye to violations of our immigration laws or tolerate the exploitation of workers within our borders. As is often the case, committing to enacting and enforcing laws that that reflect our values is not just the right thing to do, it ultimately serves the common good.
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Yollam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 03:03 PM
Response to Original message
41. Great buzzword.
It should be repeated a lot.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 03:16 PM
Response to Original message
43. Krugman, the AFLCIO and many others are talking about this.
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