A couple of thoughts about all this immigration bruhaha

[Maestro]

breaking out here. The repiglicans are going to use this against us progressive democrats because they will frame it as though we are willing to either ignore the undocumented workers or are xenophobic isolationists a la Pat Buchanan.

The repukes are crafting a bill that will do nothing to really fix anything as far as I can tell if I understand the bill correctly. There was indeed a similar project in the fifties which allowed temporary workers to come and work in the fields as migrant workers back in the 50's if I remember correctly. It was called the brazero program.

(from another post of mine)
In regards to illegal immigration, I still contend that no amount of "reform" in immigration will help until cheap labor conservatives are smacked down hard for hiring undocumented workers. These are the ones that are propagating the continuation of a near or below poverty sub-strata of our society. The reasons so many risk so much to come here is that there is work even if it is at slave wages. It's better than nothing which is what they had in their home country.

Democrats need to foucs their attention on corporations like Brinker, Inc here in Dallas for example that continue to hire undocumented workers. When an occasional INS raid takes place in one of their kitchens, Brinker receives a small fine and the undocumented workers are gathered up like cattle and shipped off as if they were so some sort of criminal splitting up families. The real criminals are the cheap labor conservatives who refuse to pay Americans a decent wage with benefits and rather pay slave wages to undocumented workers.

Much of the anger here at DU is not aimed at the responsible parties. All culpability lies in these cheap labor conservatives. I just hate seeing at DU a Pat Buchananesque "close the borders" mentality. The American worker needs protection, yes! However, blaming those that are least responsible and least capable of fighting back is a repiglican technique; not a democratic one.

Respectfully submitted....

[radio4progressives]

1. Bingo!

Much of the anger here at DU is not aimed at the responsible parties. All culpability lies in these cheap labor conservatives. I just hate seeing at DU a Pat Buchananesque "close the borders" mentality. The American worker needs protection, yes! However, blaming those that are least responsible and least capable of fighting back is a repiglican technique; not a democratic one.

[terryg11]

3. agreed

this should be an easy one for us to get behind.

I've got no problem with people coming here to work, they just need to be paid what anyone else would get paid for that same job. Don't believe this "they do jobs no one else will do" (which I used to believe in my younger days). Other people will do those jobs, just not for fove dollars an hour or whatever the boss wants to pay/

[Maestro]

4. Thanks.

And I think what you highlighted is so true. Progressive Democrats will fight for the downtrodden and the down and out because we want to make sure all people are treated with respect. The cheap labor conservatives do neither.

The bill currently being debated does not give the undocumented immigrants a path to legal citizenship unless something has been added. Howard Dean summed it up best.

"My view is that you've lived here for a significant period of time---whether you're undocumented or documented---and you have contributed to your community, you have never been arrested or gone to jail...you've paid your taxes and worked hard, that you ought to have a path to earn legalization of citizenship."

[radio4progressives]

2. Workers of the World Unite!

[katsy]

5. It is imperative that workers do unite.

A majority of politicians have already abandoned workers.

Indeed the neocons dream their dirty little dreams of lashing out wedge issue after wedge issue to keep the natives divided. It seems to be working.

[gratuitous]

6. And get to the meta-issue

Why is this suddenly at the top of our list of priorities?

I assert that it's because the GOP doesn't have anything else it feels like addressing right now. Iraq? Fuhgeddaboudit. The economy? You must be kidding. The environment? Uh, no. And on and on. But coming at “illegal” immigration is a calculated risk. The GOP needs desperately to rally the racist base, and this is a pretty good way. Unfortunately, they’re also in danger of alienating their cheap labor business backers – and the real money for running campaigns lurks there. It wouldn’t surprise me a bit if the immigration “crisis” is a ploy intended to get the xenophobic racist element energized, all the while with a nod and a wink to business that nothing substantive is going to happen on this.

Or am I being too cynical? More to the point, is it possible to be too cynical watching the GOP’s political machinations?

[Maestro]

27. No it is not too cyncial and it is the wedge

issue d'jour. Typical rethug tactic.

[leftstreet]

7. Cheap labor conservatives indeed

Great post
:thumbsup:

Any "american" worker who actually believes that closing our borders would somehow raise wages and benefits for "legal" workers, is a fool.

[proud2BlibKansan]

8. K & R

:yourock:

[AtomicKitten]

9. I think the turn to immigration debate is an election ploy.

It is the one area where the Congressional Republicans part company with Junior, and I believe they think highlighting that difference will be to their benefit. Junior's stance is considered "liberal."

[proud2BlibKansan]

12. It's the gay marriage issue of 2006

[OnionPatch]

10. This issue is complicated in many ways

and I'm trying to sort it all out like the rest of us. Your post makes sense to me. It's the employers that should be cracked-down on, not the illegal immigrants. Cracking down on them is like punishing the victims. I have read posts that say we should not blame undocumented workers for lowering wages across the board, but when there is a huge pool of workers who will accept sub-standard wages, I can't see how it can't pull down wages for us all. I am NOT blaming the immigrants for this. It's not their fault. They're just trying to get by and many of them are desperate. It's the low-wage conservatives who take advantage of their desperation that are to blame. If we cracked down on them, wages might rise and that would benefit all of us, (except, perhaps the cheapskate employers) immigrants or not.

I wish the Dems would take a strong stand on this issue because if they don't the cons are going to frame it in a way that will hurt us.

[Texaroo]

13. Complicated , but there ARE solutions...

The problem is simply supply and demand. The jobs they are taking are not ONLY minimum wage jobs - they typically have no benefits, are paid cash (underground economy), have fewer rights than US workers, and/or are exploited for overtime pay or some such. I have even seen "legitimate" employers call immigration raids on themselves to prevent having to pay vacation pay.

The labor is cheap. Who gains? The employers. How do you combat that? Either fine the crap out of any employer who hires an illegal worker (enforcement woud be costly) or force the employer to pay for insurance for every body they hire (and I mean every "body"). The extremists want to make this a national security issue, but it is, in fact, an economic issue - as long as there is demand for cheap labor that can be exploited, people are going to make their way to the US.

The major barrier is all those classic GOP small business owners who refuse to do paperwork to comply with any law. What will happen is that we'll end up spending beaucoup bucks on reforms that do NOTHING, because these guys will find a way to contimue exploiting somebody...

[TahitiNut]

22. Using "supply and demand" is the commoditization of human labor.

This is both immoral and illegal. (Yes. There's a U.S. Code that explicitly forbids treating human labor as a commodity.) Treating human beings as a means to an end rather than an end in themselves is long-held to be unethical.

[Zookeeper]

21. Yes. n/t

Self-delete.

[AllieB]

11. "All culpability lies in these cheap labor conservatives"

Bingo!

k&r

[proud2BlibKansan]

14. We need to keep this a labor issue

and stop making it about race or even immigration. It's about, as you so eloquently said, cheap labor conservatives wanting more bang for their buck in labor costs.

I heard an interesting story this weekend. My good friend's brother is in the construction business. He owns his own company. A few years ago, he reluctantly began to hire illegal immigrants because his pool of workers had shrank. He does not do enough business to hire workers full time so he is dependant on college kids and others who don't need full time year round work. I remember well when he started hiring illegals because he felt guilty about it but he had gotten to the point that he needed the workers badly enough. We talked to him about it and he said well he was going to pay them a decent wage at least, which is better than a lot of others in the construction trade were doing.

Fast forward to 2006. He is now in very dire straits because he once again can't find the workers he needs. He has turned down several contracts lately because of this and is so frustrated he is thinking of closing his business and looking for another line of work. The reason he can't find workers? He thinks it's because the borders have been tightened to the point that they can't get across and come here to work. He was laughing this weekend about all the talk of 12 million illegal immigrants in the USA. He said well I think there must have been 20 million this time last year cause there is a definite shortage this spring.

Interesting different perspective, eh? I just think this proves this is a very complicated issue.

[Critters2]

16. How many union workers has he employed?

If he really were paying a decent wage, eh could work with the unions to find workers. Something in your story doesn't ring true.

[donkeyotay]

15. This is a divide and conquer scheme

The problem's been ongoing for years and they crank it up now? And the solutions put forth miss those most responsible and put ordinary folks at each other's throats? Who benefits? I suspect Repo pollsters have analyzed the fault lines and think they'll be hurt less than the Demos, and in any case, it serves to take voters' minds off the war, the lies told for war, Katrina, Social Security and the debt... and whatever else is more important. It's going to be the 2006 version of gay marriage.

[TahitiNut]

17. Simplistic, single-faceted approaches will not work!

A multi-faceted set of corrections is both necessary and wise. In dealing with 'immigrants,' we must recognize that there's no cookie-cutter approach. We must recognize that there's a material distinction between an 'illegal immigrant' and an 'undocumented worker' - and that the issues of racism and jingoism exacerbate not only the exploitation of 'undocumented workers' but the entire public discussion of 'solutions.' In dealing with 'employers,' we mus recognize that there are material distinctions between a householder employing a worker for a one-time yard clean-up and a sole-proprietor hiring a relative and a corporation (or agribusiness) with a full-blown program of labor exploitation.

I outline the FIVE issues that I see must be addressed (without expressing the details of what I see is needed) in my Journaled post at http://journals.democraticunderground.com/TahitiNut/110

I firmly believe, as a liberal, as a (small-'d') democrat, and as an advocate of justice, that a failure to address all five areas in a balanced and reasonable fashion will fail ... and single-faceted approaches will fail miserably.

As always, YMMV. :shrug:

[Maestro]

25. I read your journal entry and completely agree

We are talking about human beings who are simply searching for a way to survive. The coroporations that continually scoff at the law and hire undocumented workers, pay them next to nothing, do not provide health benefits for them nor even put them in safe working conditions because they do not have to are the ones that need to be persecuted by law. The construction foreman who hires some day laborers to help with a one-time construction project can not and should not be put on the same level as these corporations who simply exploit labor.

I don't mind more secure borders either but they way the debate is framed about safer borders, makes the ignorant think that these brown people are coming to cause problems, steal jobs, rape and pillage. Thus we have the idiot minute men parading around like men with penis complexes.

And I guess that gets me to my point. The whole debate is framed incorrectly. It should be how can we help that are going to come (and we know they will) and still protect the American worker. I think your journal entry does a good job at explaining that.

[TahitiNut]

28. The number of employers fined in 1999 was 417; in 2004 it was 3 !!

(This factoid was just now cited on CNN / Lou Dobbs.)

I'd be willing to bet that crony corporatists (e.g. Wal*Mart shell companies) have been skating for years and years and the fined companies are mere scapegoats and minor players.

While I absolutely believe that a five-pronged program to correct this condition is required, I certainly do see the scofflaw employers (and profiteering from human misery) to be, by far, both the largest domestic factor in creating this problem and the most difficult to see corrected under the fascist/corporatist regime with an iron grip on the politics of this nation.

It's not merely a euphemisn that "Profit is King" these days - a time when the entitlements of wealth outweigh the rights of humanity in our body politic. The worse it gets, the more likely there will be blood flowing in the streets of this nation. I do NOT see us veering from a course that will make that inevitable.

[Maestro]

31. Whaaaaaaaaaaat!

3 companies?!?!?!?!?! I'm speechless. OMG, if anyone wants to keep placing blame on these undocumented people, here is the damning evidence to prove that sort of thinking wrong. Good God!!!!

[proud2BlibKansan]

43. The day laborers are often hired for next to nothing

by a middle man who makes a hefty profit. Let's say you want a new roof on your house. You hire a contractor who then hires day laborers and pays them piddly wages out of what he charges you for your roof. You are happy because you get a good deal on a new roof. But maybe you don't realize how little the workers are being paid. I think this is exploiting labor, even though it is on a smaller scale than what a corporation like WalMart does. You aren't guilty of course but that roofing contractor should be forced to pay his workers a decent wage.

So do we force higher wages through legislation? I honestly don't know what the answer is but when honest contractors are forced out of business by competition from other contractors who exploit the day laborers we have a problem that goes well beyond merely exploiting labor (as if that wasn't bad enough).

[Maestro]

46. It's certainly is difficult but this bill is

definitely not the answer.

1) I think we need to reframe the debate to attack who are responsible; the exploitation practices of big business; not the mom and pop business trying to survive.

2) Provide some sort of path for legally obtained visas for those who genuinely come here to work and stay here in the US.

3) Grant basic human rights to those who are even here illeglally which should already be granted under Amendment 14 of the Constitution but it needs restating as Bill "catkiller" Frist was trying to punish agencies including churches that gave aide to undocumented workers.

[proud2BlibKansan]

48. I agree Sensenbrenner's bill is NOT what we want

[Maestro]

49. Well the Senate bill looks better

to me because it at least has a path for citizenship to those who have already established homes and families here. I'm sorry but my viewpoint a very humanistic one, not political. We can't just destroy their families. Many of whom have had children born here who are legal citizens of this country. Anyhow, I doubt anything will be done though since the draconian House plan had no right to work plan nor a path for citizenship so I don't see how these two bills can be merged.

[proud2BlibKansan]

52. I look at it from a humanistic level too

But, IMO, the worse thing about that House bill is the provision that turns you and I into immigration cops. Can you imagine - "Welcome to our school, kids, but we have to see your mom's green card before we can enroll you."

[Maestro]

53. That would go against a SCOTUS decision.

Plyer vs. Doe, but I know those ignorant asses in the House didn't bother to investigate that case.

[proud2BlibKansan]

54. Wow I didn't know that

Thanks for the info.

[Maestro]

56. No problem.

In my position I need to stay up-to-date on all the legalities of what we can and can not do in the educational system. It is amazing how much of this is completely ignored.

[Kansas Wyatt]

18. In all fairness about the immigration issue

Those opposed to illegal immigration on DU do not hate Mexicans, and are labeled racist, because they are anti illegal immigration. People are sick and tired of seeing jobs that their fathers and grandfathers once did, to provide for their families, go to slave wage illegal workers flooding into the U.S. People want employers who do hire illegals punished severely to stop their illegal wage depression on blue collar citizens and citizens struggling to survive after their job was out-sourced, first and foremost.

Illegal workers don't just work in agriculture and take jobs Americans do not want. Today, Senators were even talking about how illegals were needed for agriculture and 'CONSTRUCTION.' They are putting 'construction' on the table, because they have been taking over construction trades by undercutting wages to the point that John Q. Citizen cannot afford to compete against slave wages to provide for himself and his family, like his father and his grandfather did. Because the Republican donating builders and developers want to make money on both ends, and that requires a slave wage payroll. It's happening in all blue collar employment fields.

Anyone advocating for illegal workers freely driving down wages and taking over job trades, should give up their livelihood and economic job security first, then you will have some credibility on the issue. Until then, you are only nurturing resentment and slapping blue collar workers in the face with you placing illegal workers ahead of the blue collar citizens of this nation. This is exactly how republicans trick the working class into voting against their best interests, because Democrats take the working class vote for granted.

[Zookeeper]

19. Well said. n/t

[TahitiNut]

20. While I largely agree, it's important to realize that racism in employment

... compounds the problem. I don't think there's much question that predatory/exploitative employers are conscious of the "commodity value" differences between a white 'undocumented worker,' a brown 'undocumented worker,' and a black 'undocumented worker.' I wouldn't be at all surprised if there's, in effect, a de facto "exchange rate" between all three 'grades' of documented and undocumented workers.

So, racism compounds the problem on all sides. It's appalling.

[Maestro]

29. I am going to defer to TahitiNut for all my comments.

He says what I want to say so much better. :hi:

[Maestro]

26. I agree but,

I really don't think there is a concerted effort by undocumented workers to drive down wages. They accept what they are given. They have no other recourse. I or anybody else is asking for understanding of their plight is NOT putting them ahead of American blue collar workers. I want fair wages for all, most importantly, the American worker. This debate must be on why corporations continue to avoid paying decent wages with benefits and opt to hire the undocumented worker for slave wages. I place the blame squarely on these businesses.

[Kansas Wyatt]

42. I never said it was a concerted effort

By undocumented workers driving down wages, they are just a means to produce the end result. Flooding the labor market with cheap workers, saturates the labor market, so there is little demand to make wages competitive. The blue collar worker has little choice but to accept less, because the labor market is saturated with cheap slave wage illegal workers.

Illegal workers have taken over large segments of construction, and have driven residential construction wages down so low, that the blue collar citizens cannot compete in that market.

Landscaping has gone to illegal workers, everywhere in the country, not just Southwestern states. The blue collar citizen has become extinct, due to the low wages paid.

Remaining factory jobs are being filled by illegal workers working for low wages, and they are following the meat packing plant model. Blue collar citizen, keep up and take less, or go away.

Meat packing plant jobs went to illegal workers years ago, when the industry figured out they could speed the line up and pay cheaper wages with illegal workers. Blue collar citizen, just try to be a slave for low wages, and end up with a maimed body.

Now there may be several other fields that have illegal workers that should be paying a decent wage, and this does not even approach the minimum wage jobs that are being over-supplied with cheap illegal labor. The Government doesn't raise the minimum wage and illegal workers are a good way to keep wages low, since some illegal worker would gladly take the job. Nice free market system, isn't it?

The only way to stop it, is for the government to levy massive penalties against employers who hire illegal workers. Employers can't tell, is just another bullshit excuse to avoid responsibility from what they should know or could find out with a few questions. If the blue collar worker can have their credit checked, take a piss test, and account for what they have done their whole lives to obtain employment, then there is no reason why employers cannot figure out who can legally work and who is the illegal worker.
Also, illegal workers do not deserve to be rewarded, since they came here illegally and probably committed some fraud themselves when they accepted blue collar jobs with fraudulent documents. Would their country allow me to commit fraud in their country with impunity, especially if I ignored their laws to get in their country in the first place?

As long as employers can get by with hiring illegal workers without any or significant penalty, then blue collar citizens will never have any labor leverage over the Republican's alleged free market system. Supply and demand, and there is an abundance of cheap illegal workers, who would gladly work for rock bottom wages. Too bad John Q. Citizen, maybe you can sink yourself into debt and go to school for years, then maybe you'll find out the field they told you to get into, has been out-sourced, doesn't pay enough anymore, or can be done with cheap illegal workers now. Well, that's just too damn bad that you had to work non-stop while sinking yourself into debt going to school, nobody forced you to get in that field. Maybe you should have been a little smarter than that, and stop whining about those illegal workers driving your wages down. You just need to pull yourself up by the bootstraps and work harder, like the illegals do. They don't complain about the American Dream not being possible anymore.

Out-sourcing & In-sourcing achieves the same purpose.

[Maestro]

47. This part of what you said is the main point.

"The only way to stop it, is for the government to levy massive penalties against employers who hire illegal workers."

I agree wholeheartedly and the blame is squarely on these employers' shoulders.

[wiggs]

23. I've never understood some of the assumptions made about illegal workers..

...it is almost assumed, without further investigation, that illegal workers are the root cause of a lot of problems and that they are a drag on our economy.

It may be that the research has been done....that someone has looked at both the economic benefits and the economic problems and has concluded that illegal workers are a serious problem economically when all factors are combined, but I haven't heard it discussed. I mainly see people talk about illegal immigration like "everyone knows" it is costing taxpayers money hand-over-fist and ruining health care, schools, job markets, the tax system, etc.

I am not convinced -- and I live in Orange County where we live with immigrants, illegal and legal, on a daily basis -- that we understand the complex dynamics enough to make this a black and white issue.

It seems to me our policy makers and the media are running off at full speed without exploring fundamental questions. And, of course, that makes for a better political football.

[Maestro]

30. I have heard those arguments as well

I am in education and I can tell you that at least in my district undocumented children are not ruining the system and I bet that it is all just rhetoric to say they are ruining the other aspects of our society.

[wiggs]

33. How is this different from witch hunts? nt

[Maestro]

39. Not much.

The witches weren't really witches and these people really aren't to blame.

[Lars39]

34. I miss nothingshocksmeanymore; she always had the stats for this topic.

From memory, overall, illegals pay more into the system than they receive in services.
Some areas near the border get hit hard with the bills,
but those areas also aren't receiving what they should in compensation from the federal government.

[Maestro]

37. I have some of that documentation. Hold on.

I am still at work so I might have to wait until late before I post it. Keep checking back here.

[Maestro]

38. The links in this post of mine

speaks to some of those stats I believe. Check this thread, http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=754004&mesg_id=757330 post #230.

[Cleita]

24. I worked out in the fields with the braceros back in the

fifties when I and my classmates were teenagers. It was the only summer job we could get then. It wasn't a perfect program but at least the workers weren't hunted down by "la migra" like they are now. How much worse is it going to be when they criminalize these victims of their countries' economic systems?

[Maestro]

32. Good. I am glad that I got that name right even though I spelled

it incorrectly. Do you remember why it was stopped?

[Cleita]

35. No I don't remember exactly. I was a teenager then.

There was some BS about them not going home after the harvest season was over and the usual they are taking jobs from Americans. I think that's why they discontinued it.

[Maestro]

36. Obviously we haven't progressed much.

Remember how in the late 1800's, the Chinese were barred from entering the US because of fears of them taking over industry and some crap like that. Many of them went to Mexico, Central and South America. Many Japanese in fact went to Peru of all places.

[Cleita]

40. Yes, in college one of my friends was a Brazilian of Chinese

ethnicity. Although I didn't speak Portuguese, she spoke Spanish and we often conversed in that language. People stared at us with open mouths, especially at Lily because they couldn't compute a Chinese girl speaking Spanish.

[Maestro]

45. I was in San Luís Potosí

about 10 years ago and one of the prominent families there were Chinese. I don't think people realize how cosmopolitan Mexico and especially South America are.

[dalaigh lllama]

41. Yes! Go after the illegal employers!

Every time I hear or read about the illegal immigrants, I keep waiting to hear someone state the obvious -- if there weren't employers exploiting these people, the "problem" would cease to exist. If illegal employers were slapped with massive fines, in addition to also having to pay, say, a year's worth of all the social security, employee taxes, workman's comp, etc, that'd be a great start.

[Maestro]

44. Thanks

And welcome to DU. :hi:

[radio4progressives]

50. Please check this article (link) by Krugman that I posted here on GD

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x779568

[Maestro]

51. That was a good read.

I agree and the real issue is that immigration really is not the reason for the wages being driven downward or at least it is not pose a huge risk except for those who were already in low paying jobs such as high school dropouts. The real issue to me is what are doing to help everyone raise their standard of living. With a more sensible approach to immigration and much tougher penalties for companies who exploit undocumented and/or do not provide for the welfare of their employees, I think the American worker will be much more protected and in general everyone would be better off.

[peanutbrittle]

55. Is it fair to also blame vincent fox and

the corrupt oligarcy which has served to oppress the people of latin america?

I google "vincent fox" and can find not much press giving me any insight as to how the mexican gov. operates.

I see he and chavez butt heads.

Thoughts?