AP: Justice Scalia Gives a Sign, but No Finger

[Eugene]

Justice Scalia Gives a Sign, but No Finger


Monday March 27, 2006 11:01 PM

WASHINGTON (AP) - Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia used an Italian hand gesture
when questioned by a reporter after attending church this past weekend.

The Boston Herald reported Monday that the justice made "an obscene gesture" -
giving the impression to some that it was a middle finger.

Untrue.

"It was a hand off the chin gesture that was meant to be dismissive," Supreme Court
spokeswoman Kathy Arberg said.

<snip>

The sign he used in Boston is frequently used by Italians to express displeasure
with someone - from mild to deep irritation. It is done by cupping the hand under the chin
and flicking the fingers like a backward wave.

<snip>

Full article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-5714641,00.html

Suuuuure! :eyes:

Related DU thread: Scalia flips the bird at critics during church service (seriously)

[BurtWorm]

1. Oh, well that completely elevates it.

:eyes:

[aden_nak]

2. I'm Italian (and from NJ, where thats common). It means FUCK YOU.

In fact, to many Italians I know, that's a more offensive gesture than the middle finger.

[warrens]

4. Yeah, it's a lot more personal

And a particularly nasty gesture.

[onenote]

13. really? not what my Italian buddy said

I checked with an old buddy who grew up in a very Italian neighborhood in Jersey (his parents owned an Italian bakery and he still speaks Italian with the neighbors when he goes back to visit. He said that if it was the chin flick, its not a big deal. Its a mildly rude gesture that basically means "buzz off". Not regarded as offensive or even terribly insulting.

Maybe it matters what part of Italy you're from.

onenote

[onenote]

16. self-delete

[Babel_17]

24. Yup

I'm of Italian descent (Napolitan and Calabrese, third generation) and I work on a crew that is almost all immigrants from Naples (they came over as kids).

I've worked with, and for, many others immigrants from southern Italy.

There are shades of meaning to the use of the gesture but it basically means "get out of here with that nonsense" and "I'm not going to waste words on the BS you're peddling".

Now, a person who uses that gesture will often additionally be thinking, and maybe even sub-vocalizing, an obscenity such as "get the f*** out of here" and if you're watching even semi-closely that will come across. But even that doesn't equal the meaning behind giving the finger.

Edit: spelling

Edit 2: I'm talking about a chin flick, after you flick your chin you could do an, additional, obscene gesture with your hand by pumping your arm a little.

There's a lot of nuance to this stuff. :)

[DoYouEverWonder]

22. Tell him to go do it

to his father and see whether or not it's a big deal.

[onenote]

28. and here's what my friend when I asked about that:

"there's nothing rude, insulting or obscene about it in our family nor Italians in general I believe...we feel it is merely more of shrugging someone off...although as a child it would not be polite to do to parents or elders...we were kinda' fresh kids but we did know our manners...I do hope that clarifies the situation for you..."

onenote

[DoYouEverWonder]

29. Sorry, not in my house

and as I mentioned in another post, I'm 100% Sicilian. It's all a matter of context, just like the word fuck. You can hang out with your friends and use such words and gestures and no one could care less but I would never go home and use that language in the house or give my father that gesture because I might not be able to sit again for another week.

[July]

32. It's pretty strong where I come from, too.

My Italian family (some of which is Sicilian) in Buffalo would consider that gesture pretty strong, especially if it was used in the context Scalia used it in.

For us it could mean "fuck you," "fuck off," or maybe "kiss my ass." (Rough "translations"!) It is distinctly rude, and in the right circumstances could earn you a punch in the face. I certainly wouldn't use it with a parent, so I'm surprised at onenote's friend's explanations.

Now if he put his hand in his teeth on top of it -- whoo, baby!

Scalia is clearly saying he doesn't give a fuck what people say by using a gesture that would not be used among people who want to appear polite, dignified, or reasonable.

[DoYouEverWonder]

20. I'm Sicilian

and for Scalia to not only use that gesture but to do it in church is worse then Cheney telling Leahy to fuck himself on the Senate floor.

What an arrogant disgrace.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

3. I figured that was what it was

but then I watch a lot of Sopranos.

You never get the whole story, you know? Who do you believe anymore?

[jrw14125]

5. it totally means fuck you!

[BlueManDude]

6. so now he gets credit for not flipping the bird in church. n/t

[nevergiveup]

7. He had best not

make this gesture while hunting, it might cost him his face.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

8. There Are Many Global Ways To Say Fuck You. This Is Just One Of Them.

Kinda irrelevant which culture's "Fuck You" gesture was used, it is only the inteded message that matters.

[glitch]

9. HA! Nice try. But at least they are aware it was inappropriate and are

trying to excuse it, hoping most of middle-america doesn't know what it really means to Italians.

Wonder who got stuck with the calling the media on this one? Horrible job, trying to cover for these assholes all the time.

[mcscajun]

10. The "hand off the chin gesture" is the equivalent of flipping the bird.

No difference at all...just as offensive.

Another classless act.

[Zynx]

11. So if I say "Fuck you" in another language it's fine?

Cool. ;-)

[DoYouEverWonder]

23. Actually

it sounds better in Italian.

I know how to say it but I don't know how to spell it.

[Binka]

34. Vaffanculo!!! Here Is A Swear In Italian Link Also!

Here is Mt Etna today outside my bedroom. Love & Hugs from Sicily!

Edit: PhotoBucket Fucking Up & I Can't Post Etna!

http://www.gambino.com/curse.htm

[LizW]

12. Oh, that's much nicer.

We're supposed to be relieved that it wasn't the "bird", I guess.

[NoPasaran]

14. I admit it's been a long time since I've been in church

But back in the day any "obscene gesture" would have been unacceptable.

[BuyingThyme]

15. Scalia sign:

[onenote]

17. not really an "obscene gesture"

Sorry to rain on folks' parade, but this really isn't that big a deal. Certainly not when you consider that the Vice President said Fuck You to United States Senator on the Senate floor and basically nobody cared after about 2 minutes.


Anyway, here's a description of the chin-flick and its meaning(s):

"Sometimes it is possible to relate the geography of modern Regional Signals to past historical events. The Chin Flick gesture, in which the backs of the fingers are swept upwards and forwards against the underside of the chin, is an insulting action in both France and northern Italy. There it means 'Get lost-you are annoying me.' In southern Italy it also has a negative meaning, but the message it carries is no longer insulting. It now says simply 'There is nothing' or 'No' or 'I cannot' or 'I don't want any'."

http://www.uefap.com/reading/exercise/texts/morris.htm

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=352012

Of course, it would help to be able see a picture to see what he really did...

[flpoljunkie]

18. May we see the photographic evidence, please?

We're waiting...

[lindisfarne]

25. A reporter from the Pilot, a Catholic newspaper, caught the gesture on

film, but Scalia said "Don't publish that" (see http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/view.php?StoryID=20060327-100356-7854r )

[0007]

19. If it was such an esoteric sign as reported. Why not show the readers

how motivated Scalia was when he flashed his sacred wishes that he deemed worthy of religious veneration.

The little rotten cock sucker.

[Burried News]

21. Scalia said Fuck you when he put George Bush in office.

He did it again when he did not become a strong spokesperson for election reform. That he did it now doesn't mean anything to me other than that he hasn't changed and he fails to see how it is everybody's job to make the press a more effective instrument of democracy.

Start providing some leadership, Judge.

[CornField]

26. Wow -- they're going to have to release the picture so we can see

exactly what His Highness did.

[WinkyDink]

27. Exactly!! (Sicilian, here!)

(Yes, also Irish, for those who read the Irish thread! :))

(Va fungulo, if you want to know!)

[w4rma]

30. The AP sure came out with a story to try to defend him quickly

didn't they? I've never seen them act so quickly on behalf of a Democrat. Btw, that sign, to many folks, is *more* offensive than just a middle finger which just exposes the APs bias even more.

[Disturbed]

31. If it is such a benign gesture why did he demand that the

photo not be published? My wife is Sicillian. She says it means "Up yours!"

This guy is a Fascist Jerk!

[lindisfarne]

35. Maybe to Scalia, "Up Yours" is mild-mannered (after all, Cheney had

no problem saying "fuck you" to a member of Congress).

[Mad_Dem_X]

33. While he was leaving church? Oh, nice

What a good Christian man he is. :eyes:

[Ms. Clio]

36. When I was in Rome, we were specifically instructed that it was obscene

The equivalent of saying "Va fan culo" (sp?) translated as something like, "go fuck your ass."