Goddamned Irish ditch-diggers, coming here and taking

[Redstone]

the shovels out of the hands of REAL AMERICANS!!!

Oh, sorry, I forgot it's not 1850...

Some things don't change in 156 years, though.

Redstne

[Horse with no Name]

1. Ain't that the truth?

:shrug:

[WindRavenX]

2. the more things change

the more they remain the same.

Yesterday it was the blacks and jews, now it's the Mexicans, tomorrow it's the ____

[KyndCulture]

3. LOL

:popcorn:

[Kerrytravelers]

4. Erin Go Braugh!

It's just the Irish in me!

[johnnie]

5. But they weren't "brown people"

So the whole racism thing doesn't apply.

[JohnKleeb]

9. No doubt

but there were some who considered the Irish to be a different race, stupid morons. I think its funny that all these anti immigration folks always say the "Mexicans", I live in one of the most diverse areas of the country and most of the Hispanic immigrants I know are from El Salvador. Many Mexican families have been in this country longer than mine.

[radio4progressives]

16. the Irish immigrants were as discriminated against as people of color eom

[JohnKleeb]

18. I am aware

My point was that they were really thought of by some WASP types of being a different race. I am very aware of the anti Irish bigotry of those times, I think a lot of it had to with the Irish having a different culture and different faith than most Americans at the time.

[Kerrytravelers]

81. And a different language.

Our native tongue is Gaelic. needless to say, the language went through a significant period of time when it was dying out. It is due to recent interest that it is making a resurgence, dow to people like me and Mr. kt who are actively learning Gaelic as to pass it on to our little wee ones.

People like my parents kept many of the traditions alive through music and foods, sayings and a bit of the language, but it wasn't fluent. I love everything Celtic, as does Mr, kt, so we have strengthened our connection to our culture and where we came from.

[JohnKleeb]

109. That too

I don't know if my Irish ancestors were Gaelic speakers or not, I only know that they were from Galway.

[dflprincess]

114. If they came over during the Famine, odds are they were

though they probably had at least some English as well. My grandmother could remember her grandparents speaking Irish whenever they didn't want the "kids" to know what they were talking about.

[_TJ_]

112. In the future, only Americans will speak Irish :-)

Only about 3% of the population of Ireland is fluent
'as Gaeilge' these days and it seems likely the
language will be dead here in 1 or 2 generations.
But at least some Americans will keep it alive
for tradition's sake. :)

[AllieB]

20. 19th-Century Cartoons

"The Usual Irish Way of Doing Things," a savage anti-Irish cartoon by Thomas Nast. Captions on walls: "Everything obnoxious to us shall be abolished, Our liberty has been taken away (killing Orangemen), We must rule." Caption on barrel: "Uncle Sam's Gun Powder."

[JohnKleeb]

27. Thats disgusting

but not surprising, the sterotype of the Irish and German boozehound is what helped promoted prohibition since we were fighting the Germans in WWI.

[johnnie]

33. That's interesting

I didn't know that.

[JohnKleeb]

35. Yeah basically the supporters of prohibition

argued that if the "Huns" drink then we must be too good for that. The first world war helped the drive for prohibition, 8 hour workdays, and women's sufferage.

[johnnie]

39. I should have paid more attention in history class

But hell, it was the late 70s and early 80s and we were too busy with other things..lol.

But that's pretty wild, I never thought about that before. It makes a lot of sense now that you say it.

[JohnKleeb]

42. Its something I learned this semester actually

I may get flamed for sayign this but some of the early suffergetes used ethnic bigotry to try to get their point across, my text author quotes one as saying we are more entitled to the vote than Hans, Patrick, and Chang.

[Gormy Cuss]

80. Yep, pretty typical depiction of that era.

Chimp or ape faces and a bottle of booze, men and women both. The women usually had pendulous breasts and a dozen skinny little chimps hanging on their skirts.

The Irish were not white until several generations in the U.S.

[Hekate]

103. They were so alien some said "The Irish will never assimilate"

"The Irish were not white until several generations in the U.S." -- and that's the now-forgotten truth.

At least one of my ancestors lied her way across the US-Canada border after she and her sister arrived from Ireland on one of the notorious coffin-ships. Other members of their family had started the voyage with them; they were the only survivors.

As assimilated and numerous as Irish-Americans are now, it looks like the foreseeable future of several states, including California, is Hispanic/Latino. When I hear people bemoaning the inevitable changes in store -- and especially the part about "the Mexicans" not assimilating -- I can't help remembering how many other immigrant groups were tarred with that brush in past generations.

Yes, the illegal immigration situation in the US today is a mess, and we need to do something about it. But that "something" needs to be just and humane to the people involved. The fault lies in the national policies and (as far as I'm concerned) the gentlemen's agreements between nations -- and it's not going to be fixed by building a new Berlin Wall on our soil.

The only joy to be gotten from this situation is watching Republican unity and credibility shred on national television. It's very much a case of their having made their bed (by continually fomenting anti-foreigner sentiments among the American people) and now having to lie in it (Bushco wants the cheap labor, but too many Americans swallowed the earlier propaganda). My my my. Pass the popcorn.

Hekate

[johnnie]

28. Hiya John

I understand the OP's message, and I agree with Redstone on this. The thing that is starting to get to me on DU the last few days is that if someone is "anti-immigration" here, a lot of people jump to the "brown people" conclusion. I think it is wrong to assume that everyone here that supports the immigration control (or whatever it can be called) is doing so because of the color of the skin. The Republicans..yes, but I think that by assuming people want immigration control because of skin color is not what is going on here.

That is what I meant about my post here. Could it be called racism if people are bitching about the Mexican population coming here? Yes, there is no doubt. But to start using the "brown people" accusation is far more racist than the people who say "Mexican".

[JohnKleeb]

34. Its cool

I have relatives that are on the opposite side of me on this issue and I don't think its race reaons thats making them think this way.

[johnnie]

37. Yeah, I had a discussion with my father about this yesterday

He isn't as liberal as I am, but he is a Democrat. Strange that he is because he was a 25 year Marine and is pretty "old fashioned" in a lot of his thinking. But we had a discussion about this issue and he was on the other said of it than i am , but he never once said "brown people". In fact he didn't even mention "Mexicans", he was just talking about people migrating here and what he thought.

[JohnKleeb]

40. My grandfather is old school too

I think its just his old fashion thinking honestly, he was a bricklayer and worked with all kinds of people and his parents were immigrants and English wasn't his first language growing up but I see what he means but I think its just my way of thinking, Ive worked and gone to school with many immigrants of all kind so I feel more comfortable with it than someone like my grandfather.

[radio4progressives]

26. hmm. not quite true

the Irish are not Anglo Saxons, like many assume. And because they are not, they were considered a different "race" by their Oppressors, the English, which carried over in this country at the time of the mass migrations and the Scottish clearances.

[johnnie]

30. Sorry

I forgot to use the :sarcasm: thingie.

[AllieB]

36. The Irish aren't exactly a pure people, nor are the English

They are probably more related now than they were 1000 years ago, which is way the idea of them as separate races is ludicrous. The Vikings pillaged Ireland, which is why you find blonds and redheads there. The Celts were dark-haired.

[Odin2005]

57. "Celts were dark-haired" You gotta source form that?

It's my understanding that red hair, blonde hair, and blue eyes were prety much spread throughout non-mediterranean Europe long before Celtic or Germanic peoples existed as cultural groups. Ethicity and physical apearance should not be confused, there are Berber tribes in North Africa with both whites and blacks. Swedes, Norwegians, Lapps, and Finns are identical in physical appearence, but the ancestors of the first two groups accepted Indo-European langages and customs (the Finnic affiliation of the people of Northern Europe before they were Germanized remains in words like "king" "knight" and "sea", which were derived from a Proto-Finnic language).

[Redstone]

61. Gaels = people from Galicia = Spain = dark skin and hair.

Redstone

[nemo137]

99. Interesting

I'd always had the kind of folkish idea that the whole Black Irish phenotype came from shipwrecked Armada sailors, but that seems a bit recent, doesn't it?

[REP]

142. Not All Celts are Gaels

The Welsh are Celts but are not Gaelic. The Nothern Welsh resemble the "Black Irish" with their fair skin, black hair and blue eyes (but a much different nose) while the Southern Welsh tend to taller and fairer-haired (and better-tempered).

Not all Spanish are dark-skinned; those whose ancestors intermarried with the Moorish invaders may have darker skin, but Spaniards can be just as fair and blonde as any northern European.

[Kipling]

143. I disagree. The Celts were not a culture not a race and came from France.

The Celts originated in Alsace/Lorraine or the Saarland and then migrated. However, they interbred so much with the various native peoples that it is wrong to see them as a single genetic entity.

[Southsideirish]

107. Definition of the "true" Irish beauty? Black hair and blue eyes. I've

known only one in my life, Helen B. at Visitation High School. She was very unusual looking, extremely white, white, skin and very beautiful

[ceile]

117. Only 4% of Irish are redheads

Not sure about a stat for blondes, but just visiting and seeing the people, I'd say it's about 20%. Dark to brown hair and blue eyes the norm.

[REP]

139. That's "Black Irish"

Also how the North Welsh look (and how I look, except I have hazel eyes; I'm Welsh and Lithuanian).

[Burma Jones]

54. But they were Catholic - and that was bad enough

[ourbluenation]

124. It was a class thing and, the ruling class feared a catholic takeover.

[Spider Jerusalem]

134. Actually, it DOES apply.

The Irish weren't considered 'white' by the a sizeable percentage of the dominant Anglo-Protestant culture in the US; a common phrase to describe the Irish in the 1840's-1850's was as 'niggers turned inside-out'. Sounds like racism to me.

[EFerrari]

141. It does, actually. When I was in school, one of my profs

brought in cartoons on Irish immigrants. They were made to look colorful, black actually.

It was very much about "race".

[Canuckistanian]

6. Damned Mayans putting us Navahos out of work

I might just go Iron Age on their ass.

[Maestro]

7. Think how I feel.

My Irish great grandfather was kicked out of Mexico so I'm getting at both ends.

[WindRavenX]

8. oh man

That's like a bad joke x(

(then again, I'm French and German...that isn't exactly a friendly combo)

[Maestro]

96. Here is my great grandfather and mother in Mexico just

before Mexico nationalized industry thusly causing my great grandfather to lose his job in 1910. This photo was taken in Piedras Negras, MX. My grandfather is the baby.




The Irish branch of my family left Missouri and went to Mexico to find work in the 1880's.

[AllieB]

10. No Dogs or Irish Need Apply!

My ancestors helped build the Brooklyn Bridge, and served as servants of the rich WASPs on Beacon Hill. This country was built on the sweat of immigrants, and I'm truly horrified to see so much covert (and overt) racism here.

[foreverdem]

105. My Irish great grandfather had a awful time of it

After he came here, Irish Need Not Apply was all he saw. He finally started picking up horse manure, made fertilizer out of it and sold it. It's amazing the lengths people went to when they had to feed their families. Luckily for him, he did fairly well selling the fertilizer he made.

[Warpy]

11. The starving Irish were actively recruited

and piled onto ships aptly named "coffin ships" and brought in specifically to drive wages down. Those "No Irish Need Apply" were actually patriotic signs put up by merchants and factories that knew the "drive wages down" game would deprive them of customers for their goods and services. The Irish were the largest class of people who collected the $300 to take a rich man's son's place in the Union Army during the Civil War.

Waves of immigrants from Italy and from eastern Europe, especially Jews, followed that wave of starving Irish, were recruited with promises of jobs and gold paved streets, and used as strike breakers and to hold wages down.

The Mexicans are no different. Corporate pigs will do anything they can to hold labor costs down so they can look like heroes to their stockholders, especially the rich ones. The villains are never the immigrants.

The real villains are cheap labor conservatives. Period.

[demosincebirth]

24. Thats how the "fighting 69th" got started

[KittyWampus]

104. Warpy, your concise post is so informative & well put, it deserves

its very own thread. Or a Journal entry. :)

[XemaSab]

12. Word

My Irish ancestors came here with NOTHING.

So did my Swedish ancestors, for that matter. And my German ancestors.

The more things change, the more thay stay the same...

[doc03]

13. My Irish ancestors came here legally, these people are

breaking the law. Race has absolutely nothing to do with it!

[Critters2]

17. Exactly

The race argument is just an attempt to close debate. A particularly ugly attempt, too.

The issue is that illegal immigration depresses wages for all workers. Why some at DU see that as a good thing, I don't understand. But that can be the only reason for constantly injecting race into the issue.

[Sequoia]

19. Yes it does. There are tons of illegal Irish/English

people here in the USA.

[AllieB]

25. Lots of them are in the Boston area.

A carpenter who worked on our house last year finally became legal after 9 years. That's how long it took.

[Kingshakabobo]

29. That's for sure!!! n/t

[doc03]

38. If they are illegal the same goes for them, Lou Dobbs

just said the Democrats are looking for votes and the Republicans are looking for cheap labor. This crap about they do jobs Americans won't do is BS, 14% of construction jobs are done by illegals. In this area they recently arrested illegals doing construction work on a Walmart project for $800 a month under the table, if that doesn't depress wages I'll eat my hat.

[Kansas Wyatt]

84. Didn't you hear?

Republican Senators were saying today that illegals are needed for 'construction' jobs, that Americans won't do. Complete total bullshit to get cheap slave labor and undercut construction wages.

Really how dare those American construction workers turning up their noses at $5.00 / hour, just because their fathers and grandfathers worked as construction workers and were able raise families and pay their bills on their construction wages. :sarcasm:

[WilliamPitt]

41. A portion of them

make up the best damned bartenders in Boston and San Francisco.

[Sequoia]

113. Indeed! We'll keep them.

[LostinVA]

49. Watch the movie "In America" -- set in modern times

Illegal Irish immigrants. Taking poverty-level jobs from Ameri -- oh, no they didn't,....

[RB TexLa]

43. Well pin a rose on your nose

not all of mine made the trip legally, I guess that makes you so much better a human being then I.

[mohinoaklawnillinois]

44. Once again, when did your Irish ancestors arrive???

It was relatively easy for anyone from Ireland to emigrate to the US legally in the past.

It isn't the same now and hasn't been for quite a while....When my husband arrived in Chicago in 1978, the waiting list in the US Embassy for an "immigrant visa" to the US for Irish citizens was 24 years...

Yeah, he was "illegal" until after we got married in 1980 and he applied and received his "green card", but he also had a legitimate SSN and a legitimate IL DL, because back in those days, it was easy enough for anyone who was European and spoke English reasonably well to BS the clerks at the local SS office and the IL Secy. of State office.

Hell, we knew Irish citizens who applied for and got legitimate SSN's and Il DL's until 1998. None of them were ever questioned about whether they were green card holders or not...

Double standard or what?????

[doc03]

51. This was a entirely different country 100 years ago

we had the industrial revolution and we needed workers. Today there is a limit to just how many people the country can support. What would happen if we took in every person that wanted to come to America, we would have a population of in the billions and would turn into the third world country these people were trying to excape in the first place. Some of the same people that bitch about the environment and people hunting are in favor opening up the borders. What would happen to our environment if we had 10 billion people here?

[Redstone]

59. Oh, that's fucking hilarious! "We had the industrial revolution

and we needed workers."

Well, pal, now we have people who want to eat fresh vegetables in the winter, and we need workers to pick them.

Care to explain what the difference is?

PS: It's "escape," not "excape," even if you do pronounce it that way.

Redstone

[blondeatlast]

89. I guess doc03 doesn't believe in capitalism. Ecellent response--kudos.

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

[doc03]

94. Capitalism, well the way I understand Capitalism is

you let the market place determine the wages that a job pays. Since this is still America if you need a person to pick vegetables and they won't do it for $10 an hour you pay more until you find someone willing to work for those wages. I have been on strike and that was the opinion of the Republicans then, "Unions aren't fair the (market place) should determine the wages". But now we just bring in an illegal worker and have him work for low wages and no benefits. I am not against the workers, the problem is greedy Americans would rather exploit an illegal worker than pay a little more for their vegetables. Also many of the jobs the illegals fill are not jobs Americans won't do many are working construction jobs for a $200 a week displacing an American worker paid 5 times that with benefits. Now who doesn't understand Capitalism?

[doc03]

98. I do see one bright spot to this thing, Hispanics are taking

to the streets to voice their opinion on this. Maybe they will start doing the same in the workplace since Americans have no guts to stand up to big business or government today. When Carnegie brought us Irish, Italians, blacks etc. in to work in the steel mills he was shocked at how fast they organized into Unions, maybe the Hispanics will grow a backbone like our Grandfathers (had).

[Inland]

119. dupe

[Inland]

120. Here's a first: A denial the country has changed in a hundred years.

Hey, four hundred years ago even voluntary immigrants couldn't fill the need for labor. We had to force people to come and work here, and you know what they said? "Well, pal, now we have people who want to smoke tobacco and wear cotton clothes, and we need workers to pick."

Who is voting for a return to slavery? Not me. But anyone who doesn't realize that the need for labor changes is going to end up arguing for that, or something nearly as wrong.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

137. 10 billion people? That's more people than there are on Earth.

So I would be interested...

[LostinVA]

47. YOURS might have, but many came "illegally"

Many immigrants of all stripes came illegally before formal custom inspections... and many slipped in from Canada even then... so, this is all BULL.

Is this DU or FR... hmmm.... let me check....

[RB TexLa]

52. Yep, it's pretty disgusting when

"freep this poll" and "DU this poll" are sending people out to vote the same way.

:(

[ulysses]

58. of course it does.

Race has every damned thing to do with it.

[blondeatlast]

88. Mine probably didn't so I guess that makes you superior.

:sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm:

I'm damn proud of them, though.

[Triana]

102. exactly, doc03 (n/t)

[BrklynLiberal]

14. Ain't that the truth!!!!

Someday it will be those damn Aliens coming here from some other planet, or solar system..taking jobs from Earthlings!!!!!!!!

[spuddonna]

15. Remember to tell all the darlin' Republican squires...

... to Póg mo thóin! :evilgrin:

[Avalux]

21. Please don't compare.

I had Irish immigrant ancestors too - but they came here legally.

Illegal immigrants have broken the law to cross our border - it's not the same thing.

[blondeatlast]

92. My Irish ancestors probably broke the law to come here.

It was that or starve. Personally I think they made a wise choice. :evilgrin:

Give me a break--are we of Irish descent going to form our own version of the DAR?

Edit: You go right ahead--I doubt I'll qualify, and wouldn't care to join even if I could.

[tjwash]

22. Shit...try 230 plus years...

Our founding fathers--Rich white guys that didn't want to pay their taxes. George Washington came up with the idea of a "President" so that the ignorant blacksmiths, farmers, and assorted other native slaughtering, land snatching rabble would think that there was a king.

John Adams actually came up with the idea of a Judicial and a Legislative branch to oversee the Executive and to make sure one man didn't have too much power, and was basically censored later on for doing it.

[newscott]

23. Ain't it the truth. I always told my wife

there's one thing this Irish body is good for is moving dirt from one place to another! I can't hit a nail straight or paint to save my life, but give me a shovel and a wheelbarrow and points A and B, and I'm your man!

[tanyev]

31. The immigrant "problem" will soon solve itself.

Three more years of Bush economic policies and this country's economy will be so effed up that nobody will be coming here looking for work. We'll probably all be emigrating wherever we can.

[Strelnikov_]

64. Kinda The Way I See It Too. Between The Economic Insanity, Peak Energy

and galloping climate change, I figure just trying to keep ones belly full will kind of take the edge off debate of most issues.

[sendero]

32. Nobody cares about illegal immigration....

.... unless it's their job suddenly being done by others for half price.

[Redstone]

62. There are THOUSANDS of people who do what I do for half price

(and even much less than half) and most of them US citizens. But I do it more than twice as well as they do, so I get the business and the big bucks.

Redstone

[QC]

69. "I.get the...big bucks." "I do make a lot of money."

Do you ever stop to think that perhaps your affluence, which you announce at every opportunity, might in some ways shape the way you see the world?

[Redstone]

72. No, because I grew up damned poor. I've seen both sides.

And I'm not going to apologize to anyone for having dragged my ass out of poverty and getting to the point where I'm doing well. I worked for it. If that makes you jealous, so be it.

Redstone

[QC]

74. Interesting...

Most people I have known who grew up poor and made it big quickly forgot why people in their former condition feel the way they do about things like blue-collar wages and the like. (They also tend to stop speaking to the ones they knew way back then.)

[Redstone]

75. I have forgotten nothing. Be jealous if you want to.

I devote twenty percent of my working time to doing pro bono work for charities and nonprofits. Do you?

Redstone

[QC]

76. Jealous? Now you're just being silly.

My point was simply that having grown up blue-collar doesn't necessarily make people particularly enlightened on class issues. Let's not forget that Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher grew up in working families, but no one would ever say they were friends of working people.

As for how I spend my time, I am in one of those "helping professions," so 100% of my working time goes to helping blue-collar workers, single parents, and the like.

[Redstone]

78. Well, good. I respect and thank you for your choice of careers.

But growing up dirt-poor DID leave me with a great deal of respect for "working people." And I'm a "working person" too, don't forget that.

However, your sniping at me does make me wonder, I'm sure you can understand that. Makes me think that you feel that I should be ashamed for doing well financially, which I will not do. I owne nobody any apologies, much as your posts imply that I should.

Redstone

[QC]

82. No, I don't think you should be ashamed of your success.

Do you understand why someone who does manual labor would feel threatened by the presence of a whole lot of new manual laborers who will work for lower wages and no bennies or overtime pay?

Much of the discussion of illegal immigraion here is based on the idea that it hurts no one and benefits everyone. Things might look that way for credentialed professionals like you and me, who have no reason to fear competition for our jobs from poor workers, but for people who have made their livings doing factory work, construction, meatpacking, etc., the issue looks a lot different. I think that blithely dismissing their concerns as the grumblings of angry bigots is a terrible mistake.

[Redstone]

83. But I'm NOT "credentialed." I never went to college.

And I did manual labor for years.

Like it or not, manual laborers have always been and furthermore will always be in that position. Want some perspective, going back to the 1800s? Read a book titled "The Good Old Days - They Were Terrible!" by Otto Bettman (yes, of the Bettman Archives).

It will NEVER change. If you're a manual laborer, you're on the bottom rung of the ladder and are vulnerable to being displaced by someone who will do the job for less money. that's a shame, but it's the way it is. Always has been, always will be.

Want to get out of that rut? Learn to do something else. There's no other way.


Redstone

[QC]

87. Sounds a bit social Darwinist to me.

The reason we had unions and labor laws in the past was to protect workers from that constant vulnerability. It worked quite well. I would prefer to go back to that, rather than just tell the workers, "Tough shit. People like you always had it bad."

As for learning new skills, even that doesn't help much when industry after industry is being shipped out of the country and cheap labor being imported to do the remaining jobs that can't be exported. America is full of skilled workers who now work at Home Depot because their jobs got shipped out. How many new careers can a person train for? Why bother when the new career is going to be sent somewhere else in four or five years?

No, constant retraining is not the answer.

[Redstone]

90. What I said was that there IS no answer.

Unskilled labor is replaceable and vulnerable. Always has been. Always will be.

I have a friend who makes more money than I do. And you know how he does it? He stacks rocks one on another, or side by side, and glues them together with mortar. He's a stonemason. But he knows how to stack or line up those rocks better than almost anyone else, and gets paid accordingly.

Smart people will always do better than people who won't (or can't) learn. It's the way of the world. Our challenge as a sophisticated society is to figure out how to make it so that people like me and my friend contribute financially, because we can, and that the money gets used so the poor slob who might not have the brains or skills we do can have a job, get paid a decent wage, and have his health care provided for him and his family by the taxes that we, the more fortunate, pay.

Meritocracy is necessary for progress. The Soviets found out that nobody will work harder or smarter for The Glory Of the State. Our trick, as a mature society, is to figure out how to do what I outlined above, so that everyone can live without worry, even if they aren't as smart or skilled as some other folks.

We are the wealthiest country in the world. Nobody here should be hungry, or without health care. I'd support a doubling of my taxes if the money were used to make that happen.

I am in a great deal of pain right now and I have to go.

Redstone

[Name removed]

129. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sendero]

71. Yeah..

... Americans just need more training. Everyone ought to be a skilled professional. We need more doctors, lawyers, programmers, and graphic artists.

Whatever you do, it must not require much thought, you sound exactly like the globalists.

[Redstone]

73. Hey, some things never change. If you're good at what you do,

you do better than people who aren't good at what they do. Sorry about that.

My point is that price isn't everything.

Redstone

[pitohui]

116. it don't matter how good you are if you're the wrong color

be real, redstone, this is a joke right?

i'm on the front lines here in new orleans and this is what i'm hearing and seeing every day

it don't matter how good the black worker may be, if he never gets a chance to show his stuff, it don't matter if the minute people see the color of his skin, they go, "blacks don't work, let's hire a mexican" which i'm hearing every damn day to justify hiring under the table

it must be nice to live in a world where merit is the only consideration but in the real world people look at your color, your class, who your daddy is, etc. and then if you're not any of those things they're just going to go cheap and follow their prejudices

who are we kidding?

if the world were a meritocracy, * would not be president

when you say "these are jobs americans won't do" this is almost always code for "blacks are lazy" and no use telling me otherwise when people are telling me this flat out!

[Leopolds Ghost]

136. Hey pitohui what part of NOLA are you from?

I am thinking of going down this summer to help in the rebuilding effort.

[Maestro]

97. Hell my wife lost her job when her whole

freaking company gave the employees just a month's notice and moved to Mexico. It all works both ways.

[doc03]

45. I think the illegal immigration is the least of our border problems

what if just 1/10 of 1% of the thousands of people pouring across the border is a terrorist? This is going to be the #1 issue in the 2006 election and if the Democrats think they are going to take back the government by supporting illegal immigration they are sadly mistaken. This is one issue that could swing may Democrats in the fly over country to the Republican side again.

[LostinVA]

46. I just posted almost this exact thing in another thread

My GGF came here from Sicily in 1915 -- heard this same shit then... my Mom's relatives came from the Old Sod in 1880.... heard the same shite then..... progressive site? Ha!

[Chovexani]

48. DEY TOOK ER JOBS!

:eyes:

[Rocknrule]

53. Damn, you beat me to it!

Maybe, like in that episode, all the RWers will turn gay to ensure that they don't procreate anymore. I can dream, can't I?

[Chovexani]

56. They won't need to turn gay

All the self-hating GOP closet cases can just come out already.

[Kashka-Kat]

50. were they "legal"? I'm just askin-- cos I don't know .. . I wish I

could go live in Ireland but they don't want me! I don't have a fancy schmancy degree nor a desireable skill-- & as an american I'm at the bottom of the list in terms of desireability. Now is that ironic or what.

[mohinoaklawnillinois]

55. Believe me, there are immigration problems in Ireland as well...

The in-laws are starting to complain about the Eastern Europeans that are starting to show up and driving their profits and wages down...

[ulysses]

60. my turn

to give you props. :thumbsup:

[SeattleGirl]

63. As usual, Redstone, you say so much in so few words

:toast:

[Redstone]

65. Thanks, SG (and ulysses, too). Good to know I can still cut through

the bullshit now and again (thought I had lost it for a while).

Redstone

[ulysses]

91. we're all immigrants if you go back far enough.

The whole argument is boneheaded.

[SeattleGirl]

100. You never lost it. Just temporarily misplaced it for a bit.

You are once again in fine fettle!

[tlsmith1963]

66. Johnny Rotten's Book Was Called...

"No Irish, No Blacks, No Dogs". That the sign they used to put up in England when they didn't want to hire or serve certain people. John is a person of Irish descent who was born in England (& of course was in the Sex Pistols).

Tammy

[Redstone]

70. I may be older than dirt, but I do know who Johnny Rotten is.

However, I did not know he had written a book. I'll find it and read it.

Redstone

[tlsmith1963]

77. Sorry! :)

I thought that maybe some of the younger people here wouldn't know about him & the Sex Pistols. Also, the book is published under his real name, John Lydon. I still see it at bookstores, even though it was first published around 10 years ago.

Tammy

[Redstone]

79. Dang, thanks for telling me that the book's under his real name.

You saved me a bunch of searching around and ending up feeling like an idiot.

I'll find it and read it.

Redstone

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

67. My Irish grandmother stole floor scrubbing jobs from 'murkins.

Before that she stole similar jobs from English women and Canadian women before bringing her four daughters here to steal similar jobs from Americans.

[AllieB]

68. My Irish ancestors stole maid and gardner jobs

and I think a few of them helped build the Brooklyn Bridge.

[MrMonk]

86. My south Italian grandmother

deprived many god-fearing American women of their right to do their own laundry and mend their own clothes. Her husband was more generous. They couldn't find American grounds keepers who were willing to stay invisible.

[blondeatlast]

95. My granny did the same until my gpa and her

became tenant farmers. Then they hired more illegal "aliens" to help them out.

I'm so damned ashamed of them--they put SEVEN out of eight kids through college, and my two aunties did not go on the GI bill, of course.

Teachers, businessmen, a lawyer, and my father was was an administrator in one of the best programs for the developmentally disabled in the US.

Damn shame they sucked on the government teat, it's a damn shame. :sarcasm:

[Katherine Brengle]

85. Redstone -- great post -- just incredible. K&R.

[Redstone]

93. Thank you, KB. I do appreciate it.

Redstone

[Triana]

101. Did they come here LEGALLY?

Through Ellis Island? Did they get proper papers and screened for diseases before they were allowed in? Yep. They did. Or did they sneak in here illegally? Dunno. Maybe some of them did, but I bet most of them did not.

There's your difference - or that is the difference to me, anyway. I have nothing against LEGAL immigrants.

[rman]

106. ...because they accept lower wages then we do - which makes corporations

very happy - corporations that have no qualms about hiring illegals, and that lobby for legislation that enables illegal immigration (ie Bush 1's immigration reform thing).

So it's not simply a matter of being in favor of or opposed to immigrants.

[fishnfla]

108. The irony being: recent Irish emigrees are returning home now

As a recent article in the NYTimes described, recent Irish immigrants who had overstayed their visas were/are returning to Ireland voluntarily because of improved working conditions and standard of living in their homeland. Something about univerasl education and health care which has improved the islands economy over previous decades of despair.

There is a lesson here which is lost on many, many people

[_TJ_]

111. Free health care and free education (including third-level)

Has made Ireland the most desirable country in the world
to live in according to the Economist magazine. The economy
has been booming for a decade and is expected to continue
doing so for the next 15 years at least.

I love living here - now if only anyone could afford to buy
a goddamn house in this crazy country everything would
be perfect :)

[fishnfla]

121. Has made her desirable for employers too

A well educated work-force, companies dont have to worry about health care costs.

Again, the lessons are there for the taking......on many levels, including the immigration debate

[ceile]

118. My ex is thinking of returning to Dublin....

many of his friends that were here 6, 7, 8 years are returning home. Their greencards are expiring and they don't see any reason to stay with all the hassle they have to go through to get them renewed, along with the lowpaying jobs. Why stay? Kinda wished I'd gone through with the wedding-I wanna go too!!!!

[Inland]

126. Where they find Dublin home to lots of immigrants. nt

[Taverner]

110. HAHAHAHA

Love it

[pitohui]

115. no irish immigrant was talking of making parts of usa into irish counties

many mexican immigrants are openly talking of making usa states -- and large ones that you are going to miss -- part of mexico

those who refuse to secure their borders lose their borders

ask my cherokee ancestors how the open and welcoming policy toward immigrants worked out for them

people who don't think their heritage worth protecting soon don't have so much to protect

seems like you don't know what you got till it's gone

sorry, when you have activist peoples whose eventual plan is annexation of large and valuable territories, you have a duty to secure your borders and be sure of who you are allowing to take up residence in your territory

you don't have to be soft-minded just because you're soft-hearted

i mean, i hate to inject a note of practical self-interest into the fuzzy-minded love fest but this sort of nonsense is exactly what the wingnuts can use to make us look ridiculous because you know what? it IS ridiculous, crying racism to get your way doesn't make you look attractive and it cheapens your argument so that when you have a real issue of racism you won't be heard

every day, EVERY DAY, i have to hear crap abt how "blacks won't work" and this is why mexicans must be hired from people who want to justify hiring under the table, THAT my friend is the real racism, THAT my friend is what has not changed

you may presume "americans" (by which in practice is often meant blacks) don't want to work, but they are not even being given the chance

i am seeing it every damn day and i'm getting a little sick of

[ourbluenation]

122. Because the Irish never owned parts of the US...

like Mexico did. And - I don't most illegals frmo Mexico seriously want to battle the US to get Texas and California yet. Maybe there's a fringe group, but not the norm.

[Inland]

125. All the more reason.

I don't care why. I would care if.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

138. Right...paranoid much?

[Inland]

123. Nothing like conflating racism with immigration controls. Again.

After all, the Irish were the objects of discrimination, no doubt. But they were let in, legally.

So you're point would be, what exactly? That we should have free immigration as long as we hate them once they get here, and make sure that they only take jobs away from someone that's even more oppressed, like the african americans?

Fact is, there is no point besides injecting racism into a debate where it doesn't belong.

[harpo]

127. you got something against the Irish?

[Nikki Stone 1]

130. Well, Hannity and O'Reilly....but

I guess the Kennedies kind of balance them out

:)

[harpo]

133. its ok to hate those two :)

[radio4progressives]

128. here take a look at this article by krugman

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x779568

[ausus]

131. Whether you like it or not, Immigration is the seminal issue of our time.

And the Democratic Party better get on the right side of it (restricing the excessive scale of it) or risk being discarded as irrelevent.

Why restrict? Some good reasons: 1) protect the interests of the most vulenerable workers (the poorest, the less skilled, the less able, African Americans, Latino Americns - yes, that's right). 2) Protect the environment. How much longer can we go on admitting more than 2 million immigrants per year. At this rate within 40 years we are at 500 million, beyond that things will spin completely out of control. Have you ever been to India, China? The crush of humanity in these places is barely tolerable; do you wish this legacy for your children, your grand-children? Many more reasons, but these 2 should give you something to think about.

[Beausoir]

132. Yes! And calling them "ditch-diggers" is perfectly acceptable here at DU!

Just like calling the Mexicans "aliens" is perfectly acceptable! (sarcasm)

I appreciate your post, Redstone. You tell it like it is. I stand with you.

[LittleClarkie]

135. Just as with the president and wiretapping.

the problem isn't immigration, it's illegal immigration.

How do you think folks who spent years to go through the process of becoming a citizen would feel if someone leapfrogged over them into citizenship through amnesty.

I don't think the issue is as simple as you make it appear.

[mohinoaklawnillinois]

144. The McCain-Kennedy bill provides that none of the "illegals"

present in the US since 2005 would "leapfrog" over anyone presently waiting for legal residence status. If this bill passes, the "illegals" would definitely "go to the back of the line"..

Maybe I'm reading all these threads the wrong way, but as far as I know, the US always required legal resident "aliens" to wait 5 years until they could even apply for citizenship. I could be wrong here, but the only exception to this rule was if the "resident alien" was married to an American born citizen, then the wait was only 3 years.

Not only that, but under McCain-Kennedy each "illegal" applying for "legal resident" status would have to pay a fine of $2,000, prove that they have been working, pay their back taxes, and go through a criminal background check. As well, if I understood the Senate Judiciary's Committee meeting on Monday, the wait for these "illegals", if they follow all the rules and become "legal", they would have to wait for 6 years to apply for American citizenship.

As well, anyone who has ever dealt with INS in the past knows that they move at a "snail's" pace. Add the normal fees that go along with applying for "legal resident" status and you're looking at a pretty hefty amount of money for each illegal...

Bottom line to me is this: not only have many of these "illegals" been exploited by their employers, if and that is a mighty big if, McCain-Kennedy passes, they'll be paying quite a bit of money to the US government to become legal. They're not looking for a "free ride", they're willing to pay the price for their "crime".

[VLC98]

146. "Go to the back of the line"

I keep hearing this phrase, but it's never explained. If it means the line for legal residence, wouldn't it entail going back to their country to wait for a green card?

[RagingInMiami]

145. Well nobody is stopping those people who are going "through the process"

From trekking across the desert in the pitch dark of night and under the scorching sun of the day, carrying their sole belongings in a plastic bag, sharing a bottle of water with their friends and family, hoping they can get to the next town before their water runs out, the soles of their shoes wear out and/or the Border Patrol catches and deports them across the border, leaving them to try the process again.

Nobody is stopping them from getting hired at a roofing company in Phoenix where they would be required to work twelve-hour days in 120-degree temperatures, pouring tar on the roofs of cookie-cutter homes for about six dollars an hour with no overtime or health benefits.

Nobody is stopping them from living in a one-room apartment with about 15 other "illegal immigrants" who are hoping to make enough money where they can one day secure their own apartment and bring their wife and kid over the United States -- illegally, of course -- for a chance that their son might grow up to be bilingual and might get himself an education where he would not have to be a roofer.

The "leapfrog" avenue of entering the country is available for everyone. Not just Mexicans.

[EFerrari]

140. No, they don't change. We have stability in all the wrong places. nt

[TheBaldyMan]

147. Dangnabbit Injuns have way too much land and all