What's up with this?

[file83]

What's missing from these protest photos?

Why aren't there any American Flags?

It's great for one to be proud of his/her heritage, but would it hurt to also show some love for the country in which they live and want citizenship?

Or is NBC censoring photos of the protesters holding American Flags? :shrug:

on edit: photo formatting issue

[Ezlivin]

1. They are usually sewing the American flag, but had to take a day off

Take that, Betsy Ross.

[EFerrari]

125. . . .

:rofl:

:hi:

[Dem Agog]

2. I"m not surprised...

I'm not proud to be an American and I'm a legal citizen.

I'm hardly surprised they're showing patriotism for their home country over America. America wants to shut them out, so why revel in the place?

I think anyone who waves a flag doesn't understand what they're "proud" of. I am utterly ashamed to be alive and living in Bush's Nazi America. I apologize to the world for this country, and pray for forgiveness from this evil America that Republicans have created, this terrorizing, bullying, festering, sty of a country.

If my husband would let me, I'd move to Europe in a second. I am more ashamed of this country than anything.

[mondo joe]

28. If America is so sucky, why is tough laws on immigration a problem?

Seriously - it's hard to see how one can arguethat people should be allowed to immigrate to THIS country by people whose loyalty is to ANOTHER country.

It gives the appearance of people (the ones with the flags) who want to live in America to take advantage of economic opportunity only but feel no loyalty to, ir respect for it.

[Dem Agog]

66. I don't care either way...

I frankly dont' care if our borders overrun with immigrants. This place is a "melting pot" and our citizens have destroyed the country. Hand the place over to Mexico for all I care. They could hardly do a worse job than Bush.

No matter what happens with immigration, I don't care. If they crap on immigrants, then they live up to what I've expected from the current Nazi regime. If they open up the borders and give the country away, I think the country could only improve.

I don't know that there's any other issue that could possibly mean any less to me than that of immigration. Hell, our jobs are in India. Why should we care where all of our citizens come from? By all means, overrun the place, or build walls and shoot them... I expect nothing less on either extreme from the retarded fucks running this shithole.

[mondo joe]

68. Well you've certainly covered all the worst possibilities.

Not very helpful, but thanks for the effort.

[Dem Agog]

69. Yes I have

Because here in Amerikkka we never get reasonable centrist positions.

Being unhelpful is just my way of playing like I'm a Democrat in Congress!

[mondo joe]

72. That's kind of funny. I thought your earlier position of not caring what

happens to this country was more Republican.

I guess you covered both parties.

[Synnical]

3. The Riot Police are missing . Do I win?

:)

[Mandate My Ass]

7. yup, you're the winner!

I was gonna say something about nationalistic jingoism and making sure the brown people assimilate before they enjoy the right to speak their minds but you're synnical enough for both of us. :hi:

[file83]

10. It's kind of hard to believe that these protesters got a permit to walk on

the highway, so I wonder why they are being allowed to. Hell, in NYC during the 2004 Republican Convention, thousands of American Citizens got arrested for walking on the street. Does L.A. and NYC have different protest laws or something?

[linazelle]

57. They have protested all across the country, not just LA...same

tactics. Nobody here is saying what they are doing isn't fine. It's just that when you parallel it to anti-war protests, it doesn't add up. Look at the TV coverage. Coverage of anti-war protests is almost zilch. Almost every one of these protests has been covered and they have disrupted each city they have occurred in.

Chicago traffic was shut down a few weeks ago because of it.

Hmmmm...I smell something fishy. Don't you?

[linazelle]

56. BINGO!!!! nt

[Richard Steele]

102. Damn Right you win. Ignore this silly "wrong flag" bullshit...

...because your observation gets to the REAL heart of it.

"IMMIGRATION" is the Repub Propaganda Machine's chosen WEDGE
for the 2006 elections.

These demonstrations are being funded by mostly RW money sources.

And, unlike an antiwar demonstration or Quaker meeting,
the stormtroopers have orders to NOT line up and intimidate these people.

Their absence is the most telling clue that B*shCabal™ has approved what you are seeing.

[Marnieworld]

114. you nailed it

it's a bush co production

[High Plains]

122. Please...a source for your claim

that "these demonstratins are being funded by mostly RW money sources."

I think we're getting close to conspiracy theory territory.

[TAPat]

4. Please excuse my lack of eloquence this evening

but, wow, you're right.

[doublethink]

5. Nice selective screening on your choice of pictures ....

here's one ....

I'll go get more if you want me too. Peace. :)

[file83]

14. Did you read my post in it's entirety? I asked if you all thought maybe

it was censorship on behalf of the NBC 4 News station I sited in the link, or did you miss that? Or do you just like being snarky?

[doublethink]

26. Oh sorry ......

I took what you said on it's own volition .. "It's great for one to be proud of his/her heritage, but would it hurt to also show some love for the country in which they live and want citizenship? ..... you did say that didn't you? :shrug: And by the way all the protesters were not 'illegal'... Peace.

[file83]

48. Isn't gaining citizenship a goal for immigrants?

I never said the were illegal, so don't put that word in quotes. Secondly I never said that all of them weren't American citizens, so please, don't twist my words like a Kansas tornado.

And it's curious how you selectively answered one of my questions but ignored the other. Which was, do you think NBC 4 News was censoring the photos of today's protests in L.A. to make it seem like no one was waving American Flags?

[doublethink]

70. Oh sorry again ......

you said ".... in which they live and want citizenship.. To me that sounded like quite a broad brush you were painting this picture with. Anyway your pictures came from a student walkout today from L.A. schools. Here's a clip from your source ...

'More than 1,000 students waving Mexican, El Salvadoran, Guatemalan and American flags began gathering on the south lawn of Los Angeles City Hall just after 9 a.m. and stayed through the early afternoon, Los Angeles Police Department Lt. Paul Vernon said.

Across the county, an estimated 21,975 students from various school districts took part in protests, according to Monica Carazo of the Los Angeles Unified School District. -snip-

http://www.nbc4.tv/news/8289535/detail.html

I have no idea if your local 4 news was censoring out any flags from any of these events today. The pictures I posted were from the Protest over the weekend in L.A. .... where there were up-wards of 500,000 people in attendance. I must say here that if you were really paying attention to these 'protest events' overall .... you would have known that. And you would have seen the pictures I posted prior to when I posted them on your thread. Anyway sorry you missed all of that.

Lastly I have to ask you just out of curiosity why 'waving an American flag' would prove Patriotism, or love of Country anyway to you personally? Citizens wrap themselves in the American Flag in this Country for a varying number of reasons don't they? And not all of them use it to promote true democracy, liberty, freedom, righteousness or whatever-else it represents to you. Look at these two pictures ..... Pro-War Advocates ...




Personally I disagree with both of these uses of so called 'patriotism' and superficial, simplistic love of Country or our Troops ... Peace again and thanks for the conversation.

[LuckyLib]

117. It's also important to know the history of Latino students' walking

out of high schools. It has been happening for over 40 years. Was a particularly powerful response by Mexican American students to the failure of schools to attend to their language and academic needs, and the use of Latino students for desegregation purposes all over Los Angeles (they were bused to deseg both black and white schools -- your all-purpose minority student). I would not at all be surprised to see Latino students marching with the national flags of their countries -- in the 60s it was the flag of the United Farmworkers.

[Synnical]

31. file83 - might be the way your OP formatted

On my screen, all I see is the beginning of your comment, i.e., " It's great for one to be proud of his/her heritage, but would it hurt to also show some love for the country in which they live and want citi". I have to scroll right to see the rest of your statement, "citizenship? Or is the MSM censoring photos of the protesters holding American Flags? :shrug:"

:hi:

[file83]

50. Thanks, that's what's going on....I'll see if I can fix it.

[file83]

52. It was that American flag .gif file screwing up the formatting...

...oh the irony! I asked why there aren't any American Flags and then the American Flag I chose ends up screwing up the post!! :rofl:

[Synnical]

73. Yeah, it is ironic

Glad you were able to fix it.

-Cindy in Fort Lauderdale:)

[pinto]

62. The huge LA march had lots of US flags. These look to be a news piece on

one of the High School walkouts, fwiw. :shrug:

[Critters2]

6. It makes absolutely no sense to fly a foreign flag

while trying to influence American policies, and it plays into the hands of right-wing xenophobes.

But, trust me, you'll be attacked for asking the question.

I speak from experience.

[AndyA]

8. I heard they were encouraged to display American flags

but a lot of protesters - obviously - chose not to.

[fishnfla]

42. " chose not to"

Interesting "choice" of a word. Because the way I read it, the Catholic Church is behind much of the pro-immigration policies and advocacy thats going on now.

Hmmm, now why would that be?

[doublethink]

9. Here's another ......

[file83]

15. So NBC 4 News was censoring? Was this photo from today's protest in

L.A.? When and where was this photo taken?

[doublethink]

82. If you were truly paying attention ......

you would know that already now wouldn't you? See post #70 above. And yes I like being 'Snarky' sometimes. :)

[acmavm]

11. Okay, looking at these pictures makes me wonder about something.

Why are they not in the streets of THEIR COUNTRY demonstrating for their rights? I am not being racist so don't whip out that phony crap on me, anyone. I really want to know. Why are they here demanding, in millions of cases, that their illegal status be overlooked? Why are they not in their native country demanding that their government legislate that they should be given a livable wage? Why are they not demanding that their own governments treat them humanely and with dignity (as they should be)?

Am I missing something here?

[Daphne08]

16. No, you are not missing anything.

And before anyone attacks me, yes, I do disagree with the "official" Democratic position on illegal immigration, so don't even bother arguing with me. I'm a hardened old woman and no one will change my mind on the issue.

I also think the Sensenbrenner bill is just plain mean-spirited and dangerous, so I cannot in all honesty blame the anger being displayed against it.

However, our country must get back to sensible immigration law enforcement.

I love this country but I suspect there are greater (corporate globalism) forces at work here, and we must fight that if we are going to preserve our current standard of living.

[MADem]

17. Why, because "They took errrr jerrrrbs!" over here, that's why!!

You know, all those swell jobs, like shit shovelling and lettuce picking, that we Americans were lining up in droves to get!!!

[acmavm]

35. Been hearing that lame excuse for weeks now. And the answer to that is

if the jobs paid a decent wage, Americans would be lined up for miles to do them. Hell, unemployment in black Americans is currently over 11%. I sit at the front desk at a manufacturing company and we get shitloads of people, especially blacks, coming in asking if we're hiring for ANYTHING. And I ride the bus and I hear them talking about trying to find work, permanent work. So I don't swallow that Americans won't do it crap. Americans won't do if for the wages that are being paid because cheap illegal labor is all over the place.

[MADem]

78. I guess I should have used that dripping sarcasm thingy

I wasn't suggesting it was an excuse, lame or otherwise.

The reference is to a South Park episode, where the people from the future travel back in time because there's no work in the future, they need to feed their families, and they do jobs from snow shovelling to computer programming for 25 cents an hour.

All of the residents of the town get angry, and holler "They took errr jerrrrbs!!!"

[file83]

18. That is a very important question. The Mexican Government's corruption

is having a major impact on our economy and the lives of it's citizens.

[Deja Q]

38. Do they expect America to fix Mexico?

When America can't even fix itself?!!

[file83]

58. Nah - I think they've pretty much written Mexico off, why else would they

be moving here?

[Critters2]

97. No, they're proud of Mexico

That's why there are all those Mexican flags. That's what all the snarky comments in my inbox say.

[Deja Q]

36. *DING* *DING* *DING* We have a winner!!!!!!!!!!!!

They fled their country. They are cowards. They chose to come here, so maybe they don't mind being exploited by our own - I mean, that must be far better than what they had in their own country.

But they chose to come here and become Americans. So, you bet they should be waving America's flags and not their preceeding country's. That's an insult to America, their country of origin, and to themselves.

Like I said, why do they need to wander around the streets telling us how hard working they are when all they're doing at that moment is telling us and not showing us. I'm not very much convinced. Especially when plenty of existing, non-immigrant Americans^^ who HAVE said and HAVE shown they are hard workers can't get any job at all?????

And I'll repeat: Why does the banner tell us they are not criminals? I have yet to read anything that suggests they are... I didn't accuse them of anything.


^^ save that for a separate post and I noticed earlier it was locked, which is a shame... :(

[acmavm]

41. I must say that is the lamest non-answer I've ever gotten since I've been

here.

[phusion]

115. are you serious?

Did you miss a :sarcasm: icon in this post?

You have no idea just how bad some of these people have had it in their country. And you call them cowards?

[FredScuttle]

131. Cowards?

Yeah, those Cambodian refugees escaping the Khmer Rouge were real pussies. Couldn't stand the heat, got out of the kitchen.

I call that bold talk from behind your keyboard, Sparky.

[phusion]

116. Do you have any idea of the history

of violent suppression of protest in Latin American countries?

[LA lady]

12. The LA times said:

and I believed it. Where did you get your pictures? The LA times said:


Amid a sea of American and Mexican flags,

waving American flags

Spanish-language media, which encouraged participants to wear white to symbolize peace and bring American flags

[file83]

23. Look at my post for the anwer to your question. I linked to the source of

those photos. NBC 4 News. Did you read the question I asked concerning the possibility of censorship on the behalf of NBC 4 News?

What was your source for your quote (since you didn't provide the link)? Was that an article about today's protest in L.A.?

[LA lady]

39. LA Times

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-protest26mar26,0,3771225.story?coll=la-home-headlines

More Than 500,000 Rally in L.A. for Immigrants' Rights

[Critters2]

37. But why any Mexican flags.

even if there were also American ones? It makes no sense to me.

[Skittles]

67. because this is a free country

and you are free to be proud of your heritage

[Critters2]

94. Still doesn't make sense in a political rally to influence American policy

Just pisses off the Right, which I'm beginning to think was the point of this rally.

[Midnight Rambler]

74. Because they are Mexican, or Mexican-American, and we are a proud people

Proud of our heritage, proud of our roots, proud of our people. And one way to display this pride is to fly the Mexican flag. I'm sorry if that offends you, but that's the way it is.

[Critters2]

95. That would make sense

at a Cinco de Mayo celebration, or a celebration of Our Lady of Guadelupe. But it simply isn't logical to try to influence an American political policy by claiming "We're proud of our heritqe, etc" I'm proud of my heritage, too, but I don't carry German or Irish flags at anti-war rallies.

It just doesn't make sense.

[Midnight Rambler]

101. That's because these policies affect a particular people

Think for a minute. Who are these immigration policies directed towards? Mexicans! It's a display of Mexican/Mexican-American solidarity. What about that do you not get?

[Critters2]

104. What I get is that

it is a dream moment for the right wingers to see people marching down the street caryying foreign flags and screaming about American policy. Karl must be grateful!

[Midnight Rambler]

111. Frankly, I don't give a shit what Karl thinks

Just the fact that there's brown people marching in the streets is enough to stir up right wingers, and we reall don't need those fuckers anyway. Sorry, but the opinions of a bunch of rednecks and a bloated pig aren't enough to stifle cultural pride. It's just not gonna happen, so you might as well get used to it.

[Critters2]

112. Remember that when you're whining about the Repugs winning the next electi

[Midnight Rambler]

113. Excuse me, but I'm not one of the whiners

And I'm not going to shut up just because Karl will use it to his advantage. By that logic, no liberal should ever say anything at all. And even if that does happen, I'm certainly not gonna blame my own people for the Repugs winning, particularly if all they were doing is expressing themselves. Should gays no longer have pride parades, just cause it will stir up the Religious Right? That argument is bullshit.

[Critters2]

118. Not the same thing, but a great diversion from the real issue

Loyalty to another nation is not the same thing as loyalty to an oppressed groups of Americans.

[Midnight Rambler]

126. For the last time, it is not loyalty to another nation.

Ethnic solidarity. I think I've been very clear on that. What part of that don't you understand?

And it is the same thing, when you're talking about Karl twisting it to the right's own ends. They can't see the nuances of the issues either. Nor do they see loyalty to another country. All they see is a bunch of dirty Mexicans coming to take their jobs and possibly their daughters. So it doesn't matter what flags are being waved, they see brown skin, the first thing that comes to mind is "Go back where you came from," regardless of where they're actually from.

Again, I'm sorry if Mexicans and Mexican-Americans taking pride in their people offends you, but tough shit. That's the way we are, and we're not gonna change just because other people want us to.

[Critters2]

127. Again, you won't convince the rw that Mexicans are here to

become productive members of American society by flying foreign flags. If what you WANT is to scare the rw's into voitng Repug (and I'm beginning to think that IS your goal), then flying foreign flags is just the thing.

Keep up the good work! Karl thanks you!

[Midnight Rambler]

128. Clearly you haven't been paying much attention to what I've said

And I resent your assertion that somehow my goal is to help out Rove. Go back and read what I've written, and try to let that sink in a bit. Or if you need it simplified, we are who we are and that's not gonna change. Not for you, not for Karl, not for some ignorant rednecks who don't like us anyway, not for anyone. The only way they're is gonna be convinced that immigrants want to become productive members of American society is if their skin magically changes white.

BTW, Karl thanks YOU for buying into the horseshit that immigrants are to blame for all your problems. You'd do better to focus your anger on the corporations who exploit them and refuse to pay a decent wage, not the workers themselves.

[Critters2]

133. I've never said immigrants are to blame for all my problems

If you've been reading my posts, you'd see that I DO blame the corporations. But those workers who ahve lost their jobs due to illegal immigration--and they are legion--are also seeing Mexican flags at these rallies, and it feeds their resentment. If this is an issue you feel called to martyrdom for, that's your business. But it will cost Dems at the polls in a good many parts of the country.

But you've made it clear that all that really matters is your feelings.

[Midnight Rambler]

135. Parts of the country we wouldn't win to begin with

Don't assume I'm trying to martyr myself. All I'm trying to do is explain things from my point of view, which is of someone of Mexican descent. To us Mexican flag is a cultural symbol, a symbol of the people, not one of allegiance to a foreign nation. Even if I agreed with you, that doesn't change the fact that this sort of cultural pride is soo deeply ingrained in us that desire for more votes isn't gonna erase it. But you can't seem to grasp that. All you're seeing is a bunch of job-taking foreigners running around upsetting the red states. And as I've said over and over, right wingers don't like us anyway, no matter what flag we wave. To them, a Mexican wrapped in red white and blue is still a dirty Mexican who oughta go back where they came from (regardless of where they were actually born), so who gives a shit what they think? Fuck 'em is what I say.

Has it ever occured to you that if who the people are is what's feeding the workers' resentment, then maybe their priorities are out of whack? Mexicans are an easy scapegoat. Focusing anger on them, where they came from, and their symbols turns it away from the people who laid of the American workers so they could exploit the foreign workers. Instead of getting all worked up about what flags they're waving, you should be joining up with them to demand equal wages for all workers. That's a win-win situation right there. If they're forced to pay everyone the same no matter what, American workers aren't getting laid off in favor of cheap labor, and those who do come here to work and feed their families back home aren't horribly exploited.

Wanna know what I think? What I really think, and not what you just assume I think? Better enforcement of our present system along the borders. And along with that, we should make it easier for those who want to come here and work to do so legally, but make sure that they're paid just as much as everyone else so that A: American workers aren't getting fired in droves, and B: foreign workers aren't a couple bucks away from being slaves. Then maybe, as a result of being treated better on this side of the border, people will start to rise up and demand social change back home, so then they won't have to come here for something better. And maybe we could do something about getting manufacturing jobs back here as well. That way, everyone's happy. Except of course the right wingers, who are still bitching about dirty Mexicans.

[pinto]

64. Thats what I heard as well. Wear white, bring US flags. These

pics may be from one of the High School walkouts - I don't know...they all look high school age...

[doublethink]

13. One more ......

[file83]

24. Date/Location of that protest? (Today in L.A.??)

[doublethink]

96. See post #70

Peace. :)

[rzemanfl]

19. Karl Rove loves this shit! Ask yourself this, how many of the

EMPLOYERS who hire illegals fly American flags? I'm guessing ALL OF THEM. IMMIGRATION is the Iraq War/Gay Marriage of the 2006 election.

[stepnw1f]

20. Don't Know?

Don't you see enough American flags already?

[file83]

29. Do you think NBC 4 News was censoring the photos of today's protest?

[stepnw1f]

93. I Have no Idea

Could be...

[Deja Q]

21. I agree! I don't know how, but I'm angry and confused at the same time.

Let them work hard in their own country if they put their home country over America - the country giving them work. It's an insult to everybody involved, especially themselves.

Sorry to be angry, but I am. Globalization is about the money. Not the home country one's living in. And if America is giving out jobs, exploitation or otherwise, those with jobs should be damn grateful for America. PERIOD.

That's why they left in the first place; to come here.

The other countries allowed them to leave, that is all. Those countries obviously didn't want them around. Good riddance?! So why give such prominence to the country they had fled from, obviously thinking America is that much better? Are they insulting their home countries by doing this? Those home countries of theirs must be pretty embarrassed too to let their own run amok like this.

If you're born in America or came to America to become a citizen, you now must be for America - first and foremost. Heritage is great and all of us have our countries of origin, but if they're going to wave their flags instead of the flags of the country that took them in, I suggest they go back and be proud of their home there. Unless they're insulting their home here, but does that make much sense?

Or do these people have any allegience to anybody except their petty egos? :shrug:

And with unemployment rates, why aren't jobless born-here-since-the- constitution-was-made-Americans out there waving the red-white-and-blue star spangled flags? (maybe they can't afford them, what with being jobless and all... you won't find American flags in many foreign countries; they're peddling their own flags... :think: )


Indeed. Little Johnny Walker. Was he flying the American flag when collaborating with the Taliban? NO HE WAS NOT. He was flying their flag.

BTW: Why are they not working, instead telling us with a big banner that they're hard workers? And why their emphasis on "We are not criminals!" I didn't accuse them of being criminals. That makes no sense either. :shrug:

It's great for one to be proud of his/her heritage, but would it hurt to also show some love for the country in which they live and want citizenship? Or is the MSM censoring photos of the protesters holding American Flags? :shrug:

:applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause:

Here's mine:
:patriot:

[BrklynLiberal]

22. These protestors seem to have remembered the American flags

[BrklynLiberal]

30. ..and these

[file83]

33. The photos in my post are from NBC 4 News on today's L.A. protest...

Do you think NBC 4 News was selectively censoring any photos of American Flags? Wouldn't that be interesting?

[BrklynLiberal]

43. Very possibly. They are complicit in trying to create a divisive wedge

issue here.

If we are arguing over immigration, we are not discussing Iraq, Iran, separation of Church and State, Tom Delay, Abramoff, the ports being sold Halliburton, the abandonment of New Orleans, the selling of our government and our environment to corporations, and all the other issues we SHOULD be discussing before this November.

[file83]

53. I'm starting to think that there is a relationship between

the 2006 elections and this wedge issue. Am I a little slow on the uptake, or what?

Divide and Conquer is the oldest trick in the book.

[BrklynLiberal]

60. There is no doubt in my mind. I am sure KKKarl Rove's fingerprints

are on this little ploy.

[Critters2]

105. The Karl had plenty of help

He didn't place thos flags in the hands of the protestors. But I'm sure he was glad to see 'em!

[Deja Q]

40. Nice to know, thank you for posting.

:hug: Those waving the American flags are ones I instantly respect. They know what it means.

As for the ones waving their own flags... well, I've already said my piece - twice.

[AllieB]

25. I saw PLENTY of American flags on the nightly news

[file83]

34. What station, NBC? When, today? Where, in L.A.? Because if NBC 4 News

is censoring the photos, that would be interesting wouldn't it?

[AllieB]

51. New England Cable News, my local affiliates

but it doesn't suprise me that NBC edited the flags out.

[Rose Siding]

79. Here are some shots you must have missed

They were really easy to find
Yahoo

















A man wears a Mexican flag as a bandana while holding a child with a bandana of the U.S. flag during a protest against moves to tighten U.S. immigration laws in San Francisco, California March 27, 2006. More than 1,000 people marched through downtown streets to protest Republican bills they say would hurt the estimated 12 million illegal immigrants in the U.S. REUTERS/Kimberly White

[Minnesota Libra]

27. They want our money but not our flag - as Theodore Roosevelt said.........

.......(compliments of Lou Dobbs) - I love him.

"In the first place we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the man's becoming in very fact an American, and nothing but an American...
There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag, and this excludes the red flag, which symbolizes all wars against liberty and civilization, just as much as it excludes any foreign flag of a nation to which we are hostile...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."
--Theodore Roosevelt, 1919

[Warpy]

32. Other pictures showed PLENTY of US flags along with the

Mexican flags. Those folks tend to love both countries, although they rightly wish this one would treat them a little better.

What was missing for me were the mounted police, the riot shields, the face shields, and all the SWAT accoutrements you see at any peaceful antiwar action.

[Critters2]

46. Mexico could've treated 'em better

Fox just wants 'em coming here and sending money home. I can't see why they're waving either flag. Mexico has done 'em no favors.

[-..__...]

44. Well, one thing's for certain.

Some cheap labor auto glass installer is going to have to replace that shattered windshield.

[BrklynLiberal]

49. Where is there a shattered windshield?

[-..__...]

61. Second photo.

Sure looks like some busted glass to me.

[Lars39]

65. Looks like a reflection.

There's someone still sitting behind the wheel,buckled up.

[ElDub]

45. I concur

Good point

[file83]

55. Welcome to the DU!

:hi:

[leveymg]

47. This isn't the main march. There were 1000s of American flags.

This is a feeder march organized by a Chicano group that's somewhat more militant about expressing its own ethnic/national heritage than the mainstream groups.

Where did you get these photos? Not a representative selection.

[file83]

54. Look at the OP - the link is in there at the top: NBC 4 News

[cynatnite]

59. Why do they have to show an American flag?

Here on DU some here won't fly their American flag until the war ends or bush is out.

I saw plenty of American flags on TV at the demonstrations, but I don't get why people should expect it.

Is that how people prove their love for this country? The demonstrations alone prove plenty to me. They value free speech as much as the rest of us and if they want to fly a foreign flag or no flag, I say fine. Express yourself how you see fit.

[LostinVA]

63. And, by that logic, don't have the Irish flag in St. Paddy's parades

GO BACK TO IRELAND.

Stupid. I refuse to fly an American flag, even before Bushco. To me, in the US, it often smacks of nationalism instead of love for one's country.

[Critters2]

98. This was different than a St. Patrick's Day parade

This was a rally to influence US policy, not a Cinco de Mayo celebration. Not a parallel to St. Patrick's Day at all.

[mondo joe]

71. They don't NEED to fly a US flag. But it's a peculiar message to advocate

for immigration TO the US waving the flag of the country people are immigrating FROM.

People can, as you say, express themselves as they see fit. And others are free to take that message and respond as THEY see fit.

[cynatnite]

77. I didn't view it that way at all...

I saw it as people showing where they came from and being proud of it. I guess I'm just confused why some have such a problem with how protesters express themselves here at DU of all places. :shrug:

[mondo joe]

80. Why is that? There are all sorts of protests.

Fred Phelps protests too, y'know.

And I'm not really troubled by however people are protesting the immigration laws. But when you protest you send a message. Don't be surprised when people notice that message, and respond.

[cynatnite]

83. The reaction to how these people are protesting...

and how it's being met here at DU surprised me. Normally, most people are fine with how others protest.

And yes, I know about Fred Phelps...his message is blatant and clear. There is no misunderstanding it by anyone.

With these protests people carried a variety of flags and some seem to think they should have been American. Me...I don't see the big deal in what flag they carry. Can't they be proud of where they come from while still loving this country?

One person had stitched a Mexican flag and an American flag together. I thought that was wonderful.

I have wondered if some here at DU are upset that the last anti-war protest had less people than organizers anticipated and this one generates hundreds of thousands of people nationwide. It pretty much stole the spotlight, so to speak, and some here at DU aren't happy about it.

[mondo joe]

84. Well, I've tried to explain it, though it doesn't seem to make sense to

you.

I'd expect advocates for immigration TO the US to wave a US flag - the idea of immigration is that they are becoming US citizens. Waving another nation's flag indicates the primary relationship is with THAT country, not this one.

And it sort of confirms a sense that some immigrants are coming to the US only for economic opportunity, rather than some desire to become part of the US. And given that we can only accomodate a limited number of immigrants, I wouldn't rank people who identify more with their former country than this one as my first choice.

[cynatnite]

85. I don't expect anyone to wave a flag

Immigrants, citizens or anyone else.

Waving another country's flag could mean nothing more than they are proud of where they came from...it doesn't mean they think less of this one or even have a preference for the other.

I just watched a program tonight on Discovery Times about a young man who started in Honduras and came to the US. The poverty he and his family lives in is just astounding. He left his wife and son behind in order to help them. He'd send them money every month to live better and he hopes to come home again once he has more saved up. The journey he took almost cost him his life. They crossed a dangerous river, rode trains that are overun with gangs who rob, rape and murder.

These people are risking their lives to leave the poverty behind and these aren't just adults. Some are as young as seven years old. A young girl was making her fourth attempt in order to get to her mother. If that was me, I would immigrate illegally, risk my life and do whatever it takes to better the lives of my children.

And if you look at our history, you'll find the majority of immigrants over the years came here for economic opportunity. Sure, being a part of the US may be a plus in their minds, but many wanted better lives for themselves and their loved ones. I honestly can't blame any of them. I would do the same in their shoes.

[mondo joe]

86. Then what is the point in advocating immigration TO the US by waving

a flag of the country where the immigrants are coming FROM?

What is the point of stating your pride for THAT country in THIS context?

Messages mean things. Even when you'ree showing your pride, when you show it and how and why matters.

Did most immigrants come for economic reasons? I'd think so. But by and large part of that was becoming American and honoring that citizenship.

[cynatnite]

87. I think I explained what I thought it meant more than once...

What I'm reading from your posts is that you think if a person loved this country enough they'd wave the American flag. If they want to stay here so bad, wave the American flag and not your foreign country one. :eyes: Your logic totally escapes me.

Messages do mean things, but they don't always mean what YOU think they do or should.

Do you expect people to honor American citizenship by waving a flag? Or do you expect them to honor it by not waving a foreign one?

Can't honoring this country and loving this country be expressed by way of protest? Does it have to be the way YOU think it should be?

But don't you think that the possibility of economic prosperity and being an American are linked? If you're American it means your rich. By the standards of many people in these countries south of us we are rich and who can blame them for wanting to be an American like us?

[mondo joe]

88. Uh, no. I didn't say that.

I don't care if you love this country and if you do I don't care if you wave the flag or even own one.

But if you are advocating people immigrating to this country and you're going to wave a flag, why the flag of the country you (or others) LEFT?

The message is quite clearly some connection to THAT country rather than THIS one.

You can protest any darn way you like, but when you put a message out don't be surprised when it is interpreted by those who see it.

As to your question about immigration linked to economics, did you read my last post? I explicitly stated I DID think most of it has been linked. And I'm cool with wanting to be American.

I'm less cool with immigrating to the US for the economy but NOT considering yourself American because your loyalty or identity is with the country you "left".

[cynatnite]

89. No, I think you're misunderstanding me...

As I have repeated...people are proud to be the country they are from, but they still love this one. I hope that's clear enough. It is possible to have love for the country you came from and love this one as well. These people were expressing where they are from and that they still look at their native country with affection. What is so wrong with that?

The message you read and what I read are two completely different things. That's what I tried to explain. I don't see them as having a preference for one over the other.

There are plenty of people who live in this country who don't consider themselves American. There are those who consider themselves a combination of their native country and this one. It depends on how they CHOOSE to label themselves. It doesn't matter whether they came here for an education or a job.

They wanted to be here and they contribute just as much as anyone else.

You want these people to swear some kind of loyalty oath in order to be here...this is a free country and I don't expect anyone to do any flag waving, saying the pledge of allegience or any of the other shallow shows of so-called patriots. We get enough of that from the freepers, bushbots and RW nutjob fundies.

[mondo joe]

92. "What is so wrong with that?" Timing.

I don't expect anyone to wave a flag - I never have. But if you do wave a flag, you send a message.

Like I keep saying, don't be surprised when that message is interpreted.

And is it too much to ask for a loyalty oath to the country to become a citizen? Isn't that sort of standard?

We can accommodate only so many people. I'd rank those who want to be loyal to this country over those who want a job but couldn't care less about the United States outside the economics.

[Critters2]

106. Actually, one does have to swear a loyalty oath to become a

naturalized citizen. Is that going to be a problem for these folks?

[Critters2]

99. I'm sure Karl enjoyed seeing all those Mexican flags

Whoever encouraged that played right into the Repug's plans.

Good thinking!

[Kerrytravelers]

75. Just because you didn't see one doesn't mean they aren't there.

I've been to protests where the rethugs are waving confederate flags and I have yet to see one in a media picture. But i have the photographic evidents (still on a roll of film in my disposable camera.)

[mmonk]

76. I would expect Mexican flags

from people at our southern border that were protesting the treatment of illegal immigrants. Afterall, the people they are supporting are current Mexican nationals working here for American employers in order to send money back to their families at home in Mexico. Others are here to make money here and maybe stay if they can. I personally feel no animousity if they aren't carrying American flags.

[Critters2]

100. I thought the wanted to stay here and enjoy the American dream

That's what I keep being told

[UrbScotty]

81. Local TV station (MI): "Protestors holding MEXICAN AND AMERICAN flags..."

http://www.wzzm13.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=52086

[proud2BlibKansan]

90. There was a thread of pictures posted earlier tonight

that showed a LOT of American flags.

[shance]

91. Brilliant Observation, and what better way to keep America divided?

By those who profit from such division?

[deutsey]

103. Photos on la.indymedia show plenty of American flags from the weekend

[lonestarnot]

107. I saw many in the AZ March!

[EFerrari]

119. These photos have been cropped or something because

there have been plenty of them on the news.

[lonestarnot]

120. I don't know?

[EFerrari]

121. I was agreeing with you. Please don't throw that pie. lol

:hi:

[lonestarnot]

123. Pie?

:rofl: :hi:

[izzybeans]

108. Did the formatting issue come from your selective presentation

or in editing out the flags?

[file83]

129. No, actually it came from your witty sarcasm.

:dunce:

If you can figure out how to click on the "hyper-link" you would be taken to the source of the photos in my post.

If your synapses are working today, maybe you can figure out the answer to your question all on your own! :freak:

[ClayZ]

109. I saw lots of American Flags on yesterday's news ...they are censoring

:kick:

[newspeak]

110. so, when are the American people going to get

that we're being manipulated and used? This immigration issue is coming out before the 2006 elections and is used as a bait and switch for all of the corruption that's going on within the government. Yep, just like in the depression of the 30's. It's those brown people you all have to worry about--they're taking your jobs. Nope, nothing about the corporate elite sending your decent jobs overseas, making a shit load of profits off the exploitation of others or cutting your benefits. During the Depression they forcibly shipped thousands of Mexican workers back to Mexico. However, some of those were American citizens. Let's see what was the propaganda of that day? Oh yeah, from radio talk show hosts, it's your fault you can't find a job. Your lazy, not successful enough, not positive enough--that's why you don't have a job. Kind of sounds like Rush Limpballs, huh? And, those brown people are taking your jobs, it's all their fault! I wonder how many Americans bought into the bullshit then, while industrialists were making a pretty penny off the back of labor. While we were suffering, some of the wealthiest families in this country were amassing more and more wealth. I guarantee this is the neo-cons new talking points to deflect from the corruption going on with corporate war profiteers and the real selling of America.

[lonestarnot]

124. Well it's not going to work!

[RagAss]

130. 500,000 in the streets and Congress shit it's pants....

they will get whatever they want.

[EFerrari]

132. There's a lesson here, somewhere.

:)

[BurtWorm]

134. That looks like Istanbul to me. Or Baghdad.

;)