Why are all the "illegal" immigration apologists...

[-..__...]

screaming about fining corporations, large scale employers and contractors when any solution should be an across the board scheme that addresses all the angles?

Sure, the processing plants, agricultural and produce growers are the worst offenders WRT to hiring practices, but they are only part of the problem.

Fine them as you see fit, but what about the home owner or small-time sub-contractor who hires day laborers on the cheap? Shouldn't they feel the full brunt of any legislation as well? Aren't they just as guilty and/or complicate as the "big boys"?

Need a deck or patio built? House painted? Do it your own damn self or hire from a reputable firm that checks paperwork.

Need your lawn mowed, hedges trimmed or garden sprayed? Same thing... actually, get out there and do it yourself; the exercise might do you good.

There shouldn't be any distinction (or escape from punishment), between corporate hiring and the asshat that cruises the Home Depot parking lot labor pool looking for the lowest bidder.

Need more...

Clamping down on the demand alone isn't going to stem the supply.

Remember that old "the streets are paved with gold" adage?

"Build it, and they will come"?

As long as the "illegals" have a misconception of their "Field of Dreams", the lack of employment is only going to have a partial effect. More stringent enforcement and patrolling of our borders is required. Not just to prevent those coming here seeking employment, but those smuggling in illegal goods.

Taking up this issue by only going after the more blatant abusers is a half assed solution.

Might as well as do nothing at all... Oh wait, but we've been doing that all along.

[Warpy]

1. Fair wages, living wages need to be enforced for EVERYBODY

and any cheapass employer who tries to get somebody for nothing needs a big fine and prison time to keep him in line.

We just don't care about labor rights in this country. We'd rather scream about the symptom of importing illegal aliens to keep wages down and put a bandaid on that than addressing cheap labor conservatism directly.

[neoblues]

16. That's the Real problem...

Every person who does a full time job deserves and should be able to demand... a living wage. Our society is carefully designed to take almost every penny a person with an average wage makes. Rents/mortgages, utilities, food, clothing and medical--all are priced to generate what are probably excessive profits for salesmen, business owners, service providers... but then again, the greed motive works between and upon businesses themselves--so they're forced to seek even higher prices for their goods/services to pay their own inflated (by their own goods/service providers). A vicious circle.

Of course, the market controls the prices--to some extent through supply and demand, but every fellow is out there trying to get their slice of the pie--even if it means doing their dead-level best to create an 'angle', their own small monopoly. Businesses do it all the time--pricing their goods higher based on the fact that their competition does so--and they don't even have to meet with heir competition and agree to fix prices (which would make the practice illegal). A sort of unspoken agreement to manipulate the market (wink, wink, nod, nod). Sometimes real market competition breaks out--but if and when it does, it's generally a short-lived event.

The root of most of mankind's problems come back to the simplest 'sins', and greed is one of the biggest. The tacit agreement by businesses of all sorts to pay people slave wages is not only common, but growing. People with advanced education or special skills/talents are more and more finding that their expected wages are either stagnant or falling--or worse, their very jobs are disappearing. Soon their will be rich or poor and increasingly few in between.

It really looks like their is a "class war" in play in this country (and elsewhere as well). Those who have, have the power--and are winning this unspoken (and all but taboo to even mention) war--and few believe it could actually be happening. Avoiding unpleasant realities and potentialities is a major American pastime. We can't even admit we have a problem...

So, that illegal immigrants are getting attention may be a good thing--and if they were required to be paid the same wages "citizens" are, then they'd hardly be in demand. We all know the difference between right and wrong--and justify it to yourself however you want, you know deep down that it's wrong to take advantage of someone in a desperate position (illegal alien from a desperately poor country) by paying them substandard wages. To enjoy the fruits of their labors may seem a minor sin, after all, they're making more here than they would back in their home country; but face it, it is personal greed. It's an injurious misuse of another person; not to mention discrimination. Then again, if you see the world as dog-eat-dog, everybody's in it for themselves... you take advantage wherever you can; ethics be damned.

A living wage; it's good for America. In so many ways; it would reduce crime, reduce the stress on people, improve health, lengthen and improve the qualities of people's lives, make society a more pleasant place and give people dignity. It would, however, mean less money given to the wealthy. CEO's would have to settle for making merely ten times the money of the average worker rather than one hundred or even much more. Investors might have to live with a lower rate of return/smaller dividends (people who make money from money merely because they have money seem little more than parasites; of course, that's just how it works and investment is necessary, so there needs to be a motivation for money holders to provide the use of their capital... so, nevermind). The vast difference between rich and 'middle class' is a real concern. If you exclude home ownership, the top 1% of the population owns a full 90% of the wealth in the United States. That's one percent owning ninety percent of the businesses, corporations, money and other capital. We should rename the country... The United States of the Wealthy One Percent! That's reality--and a much bigger problem than a few illegal immigrants.

Then again, whoever said the world was fair?

[earth mom]

20. Good post-"The United States of the Wealthy" is spot on.

I really find it amazing that so many are blinded to the implications of what is happening to this country. Workers rights and pay have been wittled away-undermined-for years and we are at the point of no return. We WILL be a nation of rich and poor and nothing in between if the people of this country don't fight for a living wage and workers rights.

[Minnesota Libra]

2. I AGREE totally!! Anyone and EVERYONE hiring illegal aliens should.......

.....feel the hard hit right in their wallet - AFTER WE CLOSE DOWN THE BORDERS.

[Horse with no Name]

3. *ANYONE* that hires undocumented workers

Should feel the brunt of legislation.
You get your home repairs done by undocumented workers?
Great!
You just got slapped with a $25k lien on your property.

I bet that wouldn't happen too many times.

Where does the money go from fines from corporations and individuals?
To fund education. Build more schools for ALL children.

Again, I state, the powers that be do NOT want to solve this problem.
If they did, it would be solved.

[JuniperLea]

5. Absolutely!

They don't want to solve the immigration problem because to them, there is no problem.

They don't want to find OBL because they need him.

They don't want to clean up corruption in government... naw, that one it too easy.

[Booster]

19. You're right, of course. They've used abortion and gay marriage

to get elected and this is their next bogus issue. Stir everybody up and then say "we are the only ones who can fix this" bullshit. Problem is, Americans follow the program all the way to the voting booths.

[JuniperLea]

4. You answered your own question

If the corporations stopped hiring them (building it) they would stop coming. Why would they come here if they knew they could not get a job? They aren't stupid. What we would be left with are all the people who come here and go through proper channels and become citizens. What's the problem?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

6. I welcome the people coming to this country.

All of them. And, if I need to hire somebody to paint my house or mow my lawn, I'll hire whoever I choose without checking their "papers".

[-..__...]

9. Hire whomever you want.

That's up to you. But, as the consensus here seems to put the responsibility on corporate interests for their hiring practices WRT to hiring "illegal" immigrants (meaning heavy fines), why shouldn't you as an individual be held to the same guidelines?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

10. I don't have a problem with corps hiring "illegals".

I do have a problem with the slave wages they pay them. If Tyson or Providence or any of the other corporations were forced to pay decent wages and provide equal benefits to all who work for them, the problem would disappear.

[Xeric]

7. falling for the meme

Right now on the DU discussion page there are at least 10 entries concerning immigration.
We're not talking about bush's government of fraud of corruption, their criminal war, the sick economy run by corporate thieves, the religious right's theocratic take over plans, our failing schools, our problems with providing health care to all.
We're talking about immigration.

And that's exactly what they want. It's this years meme. Like last year's memes of "saving marriage" and the "war on christmas".
We are, as usual letting them set the agenda and divide the country. Divide and rule.

People better wake up around here or we will be looking at another 2 years of a repuke congress and 6 more years of white house control.

[fishnfla]

8. How 'bout working to improve conditions in their home countries?

How much of our defense budget would that take?

Teach a man to fish and all that.

Why does the onus have to be upon us?

[jsamuel]

11. that is the only way we are ever going to get to the root of the problem

[Horse with no Name]

12. That is true

but the corruption on both sides of the border makes it impossible.

[PsN2Wind]

13. Amnesty, guest worker programs, work visas, etc

are the flip side of the out-sourcing, off-shoring coin. The people that claim to represent us, both Repub and Democrats, are rewarding the corporations with cheap labor for the jobs they couldn't send overseas.
I don't believe that citizens and legal residents of this country should have to compete with people here illegally for jobs. Farmers are already having trouble getting the labor for their crops with eleven or twelve million illegals here, make them legal and they are going to want your job. Does no one want to stick up for the formerly middle class?
I will have real difficulty voting for anyone advocating amnesty, That is a reward for illegal behavior.

[Kansas Wyatt]

18. Guest worker = In-Sourcing

Out-Sourcing and In-Sourcing achieves the same goal.

Who wants to bet that most here illegally, not only broke immigration laws, but probably committed document fraud and/or identity theft as well?

Oh yea, let's reward that kind of upstanding conduct.

[Flirtus]

14. What about the children

who have been raised here and have no ties to their 'birth country'? Would we send a child back to a birth parent who was unable to care for them?

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17. That's an entirely different issue.

(is this an Eilain Gonzalez kind of situation?)

But, my immediate response would be no.

However, I think the whole situation regarding "anchor babies" is the next logical step to be addressed in this "illegal" immigration mess.

[Flirtus]

21. not 'anchor babies'

children who weren't born here but were raised here and now 'have no country'. Can't go back - aren't welcome there or don't have family there, can't legally stay here, so are staying here illegally.

my main concern is that we had no rules for a long time or weren't enforcing them, and I don't really care about that. It's these kids, they've been raised in this country and know what 'all the other kids are doing' - they are trying to go to college or get a job and act responsibly, and suddenly there is no plan for them. It's like we're raising a subculture and all we want to do is treat them like criminals.

[PsN2Wind]

15. The apologists

also forget or at least don't mention that in 1986 amnesty was given to about 3 million people in this country illegally. That was touted as going to solve the problem of illegal immigration but, instead after a brief period, increased it dramatically.