Ya know, people are STILL smoking in bars here - ban has no effect

[The Straight Story]

(or is it affect? Oh well...)

After the ban here in Columbus people are still smoking like crazy in bars.

I stopped in a local watering hole the other night. The guy checking ID was smoking, so was bartender, and about a quarter of the patrons.

I walked up to bar, asked for a beer and an empty bottle (for smoking). No problem.

They won't ever be able enforce this law. And when I was in CA (Tehachapi) it was the same thing. No ashtrays, but they give you an empty bottle.

This is why the Ban IS working - bars are staying in business because people are still smoking in them.

I just called my bar hopping buddy (we are both up and had to discuss work issues) and ask him about the bars up on north side. Same thing unless they are also a restaraunt.

Now even MORE funny - my wife and I were at same bar earlier this year and people were smoking. Some guy tried to grab some girl's cash and he ran out with a bit of it. Cops were called. They said not one word about the smoking, just did not care. I thought maybe they said something later (I left shortly after that) and was surprised when I went back. No change. Cops said nothing to patrons and nothing ever got reported. Guess there are more important things for cops to worry about.

[progressivebydesign]

1. Not smoking here in Washington state...

As far as bars staying in biz cuz of smoking. The bars around here are thriving since the ban.. the ones that offer music, especially. The only ones having issues are the tiny dives that cater to hardcore alcoholics, since the majority of alcoholics smoke.

[SeattleGirl]

6. I find your comment a bit snobbish.

As if the only people who smoked in bars prior to the smoking ban are hardcore alcoholics. You are making an assumption that just isn't true. It seems to me just another way to take a whack at smokers -- now you assume they are all hardcore alcoholics too.

[aquart]

18. Anyone know any alcoholics who don't smoke?

My uncle doesn't. But the doctor put the fear of God in him 20 years ago so he gave up those loathesome cigars. Still drinks. But now he uses cookies and candy for the blood sugar high.

[SeattleGirl]

21. I have known lots of alcoholics who didn't smoke

I used to work in alcohol/drug treatment centers, and while a lot of our patients did smoke, a lot of them didn't.

[The Straight Story]

23. Funny thing about that - the non-smokers I have know all died of cancer

and the smokers have outlived the non-smokers.

The one exception I know of is an old friend who smoked and died of pancreatic cancer, which did not appear related to her smoking (she was 75).

I know of 5 people off hand close to me who died of some form of cancer and never smoked. My grandpa smoked like a wild man and lived to 86. Maybe 87, they were not sure year he was born due to a blizzard and some record keeping issues.

Is smoking bad for you? sure. But so are a zillion other things which will all kill you.

The non-smokers I know have died of aids, car crash, heart conditions, kidney issues, breast cancer, infections, accidental overdose, liver problems, and several other issues (and I know death well as I have been to more funerals in last three years than most people I know go to in their whole life).

Mom always said when your time is up, it is up. Death has a time for you. My best friend, a health nut and football player died in a car wreck. She lived to 70, and smoked a ton. She died after an infection in the hospital and her one good kidney gave way. Her diet made things worse, not her smoking.

Something will kill us, I ain't going to worry about what. Life can leave me tomorrow on the way to the store and a tired driver hits me. I just ain't gonna worry about it :)

[bliss_eternal]

38. LOL--

I recall after the "non-smoking" class we had in elementary school--I went home begging my father to stop smoking. I told him all about the assembly, and how they showed us two lungs--one is perfect, because the guy didn't smoke. The ohter was black and gross, because the guy was a smoker.

My father listened so patiently and then said,"...bliss--both the sonovaguns were dead--so what difference does it make what their lungs looked like?!" Thinking about that still cracks me up.

:rofl:

[The Straight Story]

41. In 4th grade we made ashtrays out of clay for parents

Today we would probably be kicked out of school for that :)

[bliss_eternal]

43. What no bongs--

lol--just kidding. (I'm silly tonight Straight Story), my husband just shared with me that he did, too--and of course, drink coasters.

:)

[The Straight Story]

47. i forgot about the coasters!

We made those as well. Seemed natural to me then.

We whine about the religious zealots who want to remove our choices based on their 'morality' and yet it seems many others also have a morality they want to push on us. Pretty weird...

[bliss_eternal]

51. Boy---those Father's Day gift making days

were something special, weren't they?! :rofl: No wonder dads feel like they get the the shaft.

I hear you and I totally get your point--it is a little weird. :shrug: Maybe the reasoning for progressive and liberals getting behind this type of legislation (in theory) is the whole "health benefit," saving the ozone layer type of argument?

:shrug:

Maybe we should all just make cork coasters and clay ashtrays as one--maybe that could help us see beyond our issues. ;) Therapeutic...

[The Straight Story]

54. Maybe we should make nazi flag coasters :)

Get behind the ideals and screw freedoms. Choice is bad, we should give up our own ideals for the betterment of all.

I remember freedom. Going places where the government was not telling us what to do. I still remember the days when wearing a seat belt was optional in a car. Imagine that.

Somehow we all got through it, and oddly enough those were the best days of my life.

How did I ever live without others telling me what to do with my body and my life???

[SeattleGirl]

55. How about coasters with Dubya's visage on them?

God, now wouldn't THAT make you want to drink! :rofl:

[The Straight Story]

56. I will drink one now for that image :)

ahhhh rum and mt dew mix. Best to drink it now before they outlaw it as well :)

[SeattleGirl]

61. They tried that one before, remember?

One thing that amazes me is how many people who drink pounce all over smokers, but swear up and down that drinking has absolutely NO effect on other people. As a person who grew up with an alcoholic father, I must heartily disagree with them. Yes, it doesn't have the same effect as smoking, but would these folks want to encounter a drunk driver on the road??? I sure wouldn't.

[The Straight Story]

65. Indeed

Drinking kills more people than smoking. But that is ok I guess.

[SeattleGirl]

67. I know. I guess drinking is what the "cool" people do, and

smoking is what the "geeks" do. :eyes:

[bliss_eternal]

64. I'm sorry dude--

I really am. Times change, for better and worse.

Think about the tv ads we used to see, for cigarettes--and in magazines. It's just not seen as cool to smoke anymore (for whatever reason)...and it is cool (to some) to bash smokers and tell them how they are destroying the ozone, their health, the world...

Funky and not very pc, but it's the way it is. :(

[The Straight Story]

57. LOL - Bongs

I have never smoked an illegal substance, but I can see why some do. Hell, if bush was my president...oh wait, he is. Pass that damn bong!

[SeattleGirl]

62. Here you go!

:rofl:

[The Straight Story]

66. I feel better already!

Well, not really, but I am less depressed :)

[SeattleGirl]

68. Glad I could help!

;-)

[SeattleGirl]

44. Maybe even jailed!

:rofl:

[The Straight Story]

52. damn sad but true! Here is an example from my youth:

We drew pics of superheroes with guns killing the bad guys. Guns in drawings at school nowadays? Would get you a visit from the cops.

What the hell has happend to us?

And I remember too we have people come in and teach us some spanish (not other languages) and we thought it was cool. We loved to learn new things. In Ohio I do not remember seeing one mexican growing up, ever. We still valued diversity. We had ONE black kid in my class and one jewish kid. But we respect them both and their lives and cultures. We celebrated chrismas, and Hannukah, was fun. Did not make me want to be jewish, did not make me feel like my beliefs we bad either. We included all we had in class. Mike (the jewish guy) was goofy and weird, but we welcomed him and took into account his beliefs. I still have pics of him and I in a three legged race - mom said he was different than us but that did not matter. I became friends with him and the black guy in class - all this growing up in a RW baptist family who included everyone.

Mom loved people, so did dad. Color and belief did not matter. I was one of few kids in my hood who was friends with black people, while the dems in the hood (the kitchens and others) moved out when a black family moved in. What did mom do? She and her friend made them cake and took it down to them to welcome them to the area. mom - a RW republican and baptist did more for people than the dems we knew. How can that be? Because all RW'ers and baptists are not as we have seen them to be.

I grew up in a racially divided time, from busing to civil rights, and my mom was there to guide me. Jesus loved us all, and we all have sinned. Color and such did not matter. She did not like the KKK or other idiots. I guess that is why I get upset on here when people slam christians and republicans as all evil. The ones I knew never were part of that mould.

And you want to hear something really sad - my inlaws are elected dems in CA and are more racist than my mom could ever be. They don't like mexicans or blacks, but pander to them for votes. The most racist people I know are dems - go figure.

So I don't stereotype (well, I try not to). I learned long ago that party affiliation means nothing, the heart though tells all.

And did I mention (sure I did somewhere) mom was a smoker?

[SeattleGirl]

58. We had exactly TWO black families in my town when I was

in high school. One family, the Claytons, were da bomb. Clarence, the oldest, was our Student Body President when I was a sophomore; his brother Ellis was Student Body President when we were both seniors. We liked THEM for who they were. Their color was not an issue.

One of my sisters and I talk about how different it is now. I graduated from high school in '73; she in'75. It is so different, so REPRESSED now, it just boggles our minds.

[The Straight Story]

63. Charles Butler - was only black kid I could remember, beated a lot by his

dad.

And I thought it horrible. He would come in and you could see he was beaten bad. No one did anything back then sadly.

But here is funny story from our times as friends. He and I had to come up with a commercial in 5th grade. His idea, and somewhat having to do with saturday night live:

Soap. We did the following skit. He came in and talked about how dirty he was from a hard days work. He left the room and took a shower with a new, awesome soap. And I came out of shower. A white guy.

It was nothing racist, He came up with idea of showing someone dirty and getting cleaned up. I shrugged and said whatever you want. It was a hit and people loved it (was in Mrs. Smalls class). We had the best commercial of anyone.

Looking back it seems racist, but to him it was a cool idea. Racism was not a topic, he just care about being beat by his dad all the time.

I miss my friends from that time, and I hope they all found good lives.

[SeattleGirl]

70. I think Charles had a good sense of humor

You know, he wasn't really poking fun at blacks -- he was poking fun at the whites who saw (and unfortunately still see) being black as being dirty, inferior, bad, dangerous, etc. That kid was ahead of his time!

[Viva_La_Revolution]

29. Cigarettes don't give a "sugar high"

They give an endorfin/dopamine high.


Spoken like a true non-addict. :eyes:

[The Straight Story]

59. One man's high is another man's sin

and it gets complicated from there.

True freedom allows people to do a lot of things we don't like. But like religious leaders we will find ways to punish the sins :)

[Viva_La_Revolution]

27. Ya. I'm in Portland. We have that business now

Great for the taverns, but now I'm worried about the safety of the routes between us.

Business is up, there was a marked increase as soon as the law came into effect.
George loves it. :hi: George! (best Prime Rib in Portland, 12oz, $13.50 - every Fri. and Sat.)

However. How many more drunks are on the freeways between my town and your's, who wouldn't be there except for this law?

Are there more accidents now? more deaths?

[SeattleGirl]

30. Good questions, VLR

If people drive farther to go to a bar where smoking is allowed, such as Tribal casinos, or going across the border into Oregon or Idaho, do the chances of accidents/deaths go up?

[rinsd]

75. "The bars around here are thriving since "

Much like bars going out of business because of smoking bans(which hasn't happened), a sudden surge in business (because nonsmokers suddenly are "free" to go out) is even a bigger sack of bullshit.

Christ why can't we talk about this issue honestly.

[darkmaestro019]

2. it's effect.....and it's hard to conceptualize how to know which one

effect is the result of an action or cause....affect is closer to "change" when used in context...I know Strunk and White have a better way of explaining it but I'm not digging thru several thousand books for that tiny thing, sorry, lol.

[FatDave]

69. Isn't it a simple matter of noun and verb?

Effect is a noun, affect is a verb? That's how I keep 'em straight, anyway.

[AnnInLa]

76. Correct

(from a teacher)

[serryjw]

3. Our here in Colorado goes into effect in July

I think the neighborhood bars with no restaurant will continue to smoke. The cops have no time to be the smoking police

[BrklynLiberal]

4. Here in NYC the ban has been working wonderfully, and I think it

has helped business, not harmed it.
I know that many of my friends will arenow more willing to go into a bar and hang out knowing that they will not come out smelling like an ashtray.

[SeattleGirl]

5. Hopefully, though. they won't come out drunk and try to drive.

I certainly don't blame them for not wanting to be around cigarette smoke, but non-smokers who drive while impaired by alcohol are just as dangerous as smokers who do.

[NanceGreggs]

7. Opposite effect here in Toronto ...

... papers keep telling everyone that businesses haven't been affected. But we see the bars and restaurants getting boarded up with 'for rent' signs every day. Friends who work in the wait-staff business are getting their hours cut, or are being laid off.

I'm a smoker, and don't go out to eat or drink anymore. We started entertaining more at home - cheaper, more fun, no one standing over your shoulder because someone is 'waiting' for your table.

There are bars in town, however, that are ignoring the new bylaw. They're PACKED to the rafters every night.

[SidDithers]

78. Which is it? ...

are restaurants being boarded up because nobody is going? Or are they so busy that people are standing over your shoulder while waiting for your table?

In Oakville, restaurants are jammed. People like dining without the pollution brought by smokers.

Sid

[NanceGreggs]

82. Not concurrent situations.

The 'waiting for your table' reference was to the days when you COULD still smoke. But as the bylaw came in where you could declare yourself a restaurant (no smoking) or a bar (smoking permitted), we started entertaining at home rather than try to figure out who had smoking areas and who didn't, etc.

There's a group of us (some smokers, some non) who started to rotate dinner parties at each others' houses. We immediately realized the advantages (cheaper, choose your own music, play cards afterwards, stay as long as you like).

So we actually stopped eating out regularly before the no-smoking ban was fully in effect.

The downtown places seem to be doing okay, especially the 'singles' type places. But the neighbourhood places around here are virually empty, even on a Friday or Saturday night, except in the summer when people can go to the patios. Many of the places in our area, which had been established for years and years, went under within a few months of the ban.

Also many of the downtown places put in patios last summer, to make up their lost business. Now that they're talking about no smoking on patios, a lot of those places won't survive either.

When owners were allowed to choose whether they were smoking or non, based on their knowledge of their own clientele, everyone was content. I don't see why it couldn't have been left that way.

[The Straight Story]

8. Well, us rednecks don't let it change things :)

Now I rarely go to bars, just really don't like to. If I am gonna drink it will be at home. And even though I smoke I got to non-smoking sections in food joints (and some surrounding areas have both sections still).

I just don't see it as real enforceable, and the cops I know here don't really care as they have enough crap to deal with already (I used to be a cop and still know quite a few here in both police and sheriff dept). With the crime rate here on east side someone calling to report a smoker would be waiting a long time for the cops to show up.

Me I prefer choice, you own a bar you make the rules for legal substances. Don't want smokers, kick em out. Private clubs are next too - VFW and Moose lodges for example, posted a thread about that the other day.

Choice is always better than no choice IMHO.

[SOS]

87. NYC smoking ban

NY and CA have tough anti-smoking laws, yet have the most toxic air in the United States:

"Despite two decades of cleaning up carcinogenic fumes from cars and factories, Californians are breathing some of the most toxic air in the nation, with residents of Los Angeles and Orange counties exposed to a cancer risk about twice the national average.

New York tops the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency's list, followed closely by California, while rural residents of Wyoming, South Dakota and Montana have the least chance of contracting cancer from breathing the air."

The real threat to non-smokers is auto and industrial exhaust. Those carcinogens are inhaled 24/7.

It's odd that some New Yorkers freak out when they smell a cigarette, but happily inhale the filthiest air in the US all day long.

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/la-me-cancer22mar22,0,3512717.story

[bliss_eternal]

9. It may take time--

depending on the prevailing culture (of smoker or non-smokers) for the ban to take effect.

In some places in CA it was immediately enforced--other areas it took some time and effort on the part of those in charge of the establishment.

:shrug:

[The Straight Story]

11. Wonder which costs us more - smokers or illegal immigrants?

Just wondering. If it is all about what it is costing us in health care (not directed at you, so sorry if it seemed that way - your post just reminded me of what I was thinking earlier today)

[DetroitProle]

10. hells yes

Fight the power.

[The Straight Story]

13. Our founding fathers are spinning so fast in their graves

we can use them as a power source.

[WilliamPitt]

12. The ban in Boston hasn't been particularly painful

I smoke, and sure, it's fuckin cold outside. But if they had allowed smoking in the bar I watched the 2004 Red Sox championship run, I would have smoked eight packs a night.

Seriously, it hasn't been bad. This weird outside-the-bar smokers society has sprung up, chance encounters with random people feeding their monkey. Also, fun friends of mine who couldn't handle the smoke come out a lot more now, and that's cool.

Also, the bartenders and waitresses aren't smoking three packs a night just breathing.

I was pissed when they did it here, but it is honestly no big deal now. Everyone was worried it would hurt business. It didn't.

[The Straight Story]

14. It's not that I mind it, minor inconvenience - but is principle

I just don't like people in power telling me what I can or can't do on some things. I appreciate there are some things they need to, but it is getting real dumb.

Like garage sales (which I have mentioned before) - you have to get permits, can only have one 4 times a year, have to roll up at sunset, etc and so on. Getting downright stupid.

[saigon68]

16. Its for the CHILDREN

</sarcasm>

[The Straight Story]

19. LOL, yeah, my daughter hates smoking bars ;)

I guess we are all children to the government, and they are our parents.

Some of us rebel against their zealotry, some welcome it....

[SammyWinstonJack]

84. Crappy parents, they are.

[Swamp Rat]

20. That's TWICE you made me laugh tonight!

:D

I don't smoke but I'm glad we don't have such bans in New Orleans. :)

[WilliamPitt]

22. The yard sale thing is bizarre and dumb

especially in a country that prizes capitalism.

But the smoking thing...I dunno. Yard sales don't hurt anyone and don't need to be regulated, but cigarettes do harm people. I am friends with a bunch of bartenders. They fucking love the ban. All of them say they don't get sick nearly as often now. And it didn't hurt business. This is a college town, and the bars would be full even if they only served alcoholic piss, so maybe we're a bad example. But I have trouble standing on this principle when friends of mine were getting sick because of the smoke from it.

[The Straight Story]

24. Again, they should have the right to ban it in their bars

and others who do smoke should have the right to allow it.

Freedom to go where you want is being limited, and that to me is bad.

[SeattleGirl]

26. Exactly. Why ban it all over the place?

Have some -- maybe the majority, be non-smoking, but have some that are. I am in the process of quitting (not completely successful yet, but working on it). I rarely EVER sat in smoking sections of restaurants, and didn't go to bars, because most of the peeps I hang out with are non-smokers, and it didn't bother me. But to completely ban it everywhere is just too controlling, I think.

[The Straight Story]

28. I guess some need the control

like the religious people who need the pope, et al, to tell them what to do.

Smoking is a 'sin' to some, so banning it and the bar owner's rights is ok.

[SeattleGirl]

31. It's not SMOKING that is a sin, my friend.

It SMOKERS -- at least, that's how it seems to me, the way some people attack smokers, as if we are a cretinus bunch. I have no problem with people who don't want to be around cigarette smoke -- for some, especially those with allergies and other health problems, being around it can add to their problems, and I certainly don't want to do that. And yes, smoke can cause health problems in people who didn't have them before. But again, why not have a CHOICE? And why keep beating the crap out of smokers as if they are the cause of everything that's wrong in the world?

[The Straight Story]

32. Indeed, like I said

Which costs us more - illegal immigration or smoking? Cause the arguments I have seen revolve around what it costs us.

People should have choices, I am all for choice. The more we limit choice the more we limit freedoms.

[SeattleGirl]

33. I wish that the government would "get it" where that's concerned.

Oh. Wait. That would include the Bushistas. Never mind.......

[The Straight Story]

35. Too true - but not limited to repugs really

Sad thing is, dems are just as bad about things (in my experience).

It is the growth of government - it never shrinks. Laws don't go away, but more are made.

It's like the blob :)

[SeattleGirl]

37. I have to agree with you -- it's really not just one party

Both of them have been guilty of Big Brother-ing it.

[The Straight Story]

39. And THAT is what scares me the most

that people in power just don't care about us as individuals.

I had a lot of issues with clinton, have similar ones with bush. Lesser of two evils is a sucky choice, but that seems what we are stuck with.

Since carter: Reagan, Reagan (bush was VP), Bush, Clinton, Clinton, Bush, Bush, and maybe next another Clinton.

Out of 300 million we keep picking the same group??? Since 1980 we have had the same groups in power. 26 years now,soon to be 28 (end of bush term) and if Hillary wins two terms that is 8 more years - or 36 years with basically the same groups in power.

Time for a change, locally and federally.

[SeattleGirl]

45. That's why I don't really want to vote for Hil

I am not as against her as some on DU are, but my main thing is, CAN WE PLEASE, PRETTY PLEASE, HAVE A PRESIDENT WHOSE LAST NAME ISN'T BUSH OR CLINTON????

[bliss_eternal]

36. I think I understand, Seattle Girl--

I guess in some ways smokers are an easy mark for some. With so many published reports of what cigarette smoke can do (as you've stated)it's easy for some to be jerks toward them and treat smokers like social outcasts. It is unfair, I don't endorse or condone it as a non-smoker--everyone has rights. In some ways (to me) it's the way many shun and treat the obese.

I knowingly married a smoker, and I'm an asthmatic (lol). But he was *always* a considerate smoker. He never smoked around anyone other than other smokers. He quit a few years ago--and now can't stand to be around it at all--go figure.

Just like there are non-smokers that are jerks toward smokers, there are smokers that are jerks to those that don't share their smoking habit. I can't tell you the number of times (before the law was created in CA) I was publicly assaulted by a smoker that treated me shitty because I dared to ask them to not blow their smoke in my face, and yes some were that blatantly rude and nasty about it.

I'm all about people being considerate--and unfortunately, we live in a day and age where few exercise the option to be so, about driving, smoking, saying please, saying thank you, excuse me, etc.

If every smoker was as considerate as you are Seattlegirl, or as my husband was, maybe no one would feel the need to create such laws... just something to consider. :hug:

You can reject my thoughts if you disagree of course. lol. :hi: As always--good to see you.

[SeattleGirl]

42. I have no disagreement with what you said, bliss

And I absolutely agree that there ARE smokers who are just plain rude and nasty. And they piss me off, I'll tell you. My mother has a lung condition, and NO ONE smokes around her. Well, except for the man she used to live with. He smoked in the garage, but then one day, mom came home from errands, and here's Chuck smoking in the house. My siblings all got on him big time (I don't live near them).

One of my favorite places to go is Las Vegas. We always get a non-smoking room, in a hotel (though there are very few there) with a balcony. That's where I smoke. I've been in casinos where there may not be many people playing the machines in a section, sat down by another player and started to light up a cigarette. The other player, a non-smoker, will ask me to not smoke right there. And I don't. If I really want to, I'll move away from that person. I would never think of saying, oh the hell with you. It's legal to smoke here so I'm going to! That's just not me.

I do understand your husband not being able to stand being around cigarette smoke, though he is a former smoker. I used to smoke pot back in the day, and I absolutely can NOT stand to be around the smell of it now. It nauseates me.

Nice to see you too, dear bliss! :hi:

[bliss_eternal]

48. My husband asked me to tell you this--

that the only thing he misses, is having a nice, cold beer and sitting outside in the rain (on a patio)having a cigarette. (It's raining here now, so this thread has allowed him to reminesce a bit...heehee).

He has always been one that preferred to smoke outside, so when the law was passed here, it didn't bother him a bit.

Oh, and his former roommate was a habitual pot smoker. ;) When dh and I were dating, he asked dh if it bothered me, which I thought was sweet--as it was his house, so I said of course not.

I can't believe your mom's bf would smoke in her house. Poo on him!

My great-aunt fell in love with dh, when we were dating (her daughter, my cousin) is one of those inconsiderate smokers we are talking about. She will light up any damn where she pleases, including my aunt's living room. When she saw dh go outside, in the rain to smoke--she commented (LOUDLY) in front of my cousin, who took the hint, and joined him on the porch in the rain. lol.

Oh--he asks if you recalls the time when you could smoke on airplanes? That one drove him nuts when he was a smoker. People smoking on long flights, I guess they weren't smoking his brand. lol.

:rofl:

[SeattleGirl]

60. Awww, please tell your husband hello

And I do remember smoking on airplanes and trains (I used to take the train all the time between Seattle and Eugene when I didn't have a car). I don't even smoke in my own car!

Oh, mom's bf is now the ex-bf, not because of the smoking but because he started drinking heavily. My dad was an alcoholic, and my mom wasn't going to go through that again.

:hi:

[ramblin_dave]

89. Some people set up permanent yard sales, in effect

opening an unregulated business that didn't collect sales taxes. The stuff they sold was not from their house but bought to be resold only. This is what prompted many communities to require permits and limit the number of yard sales.

[aquart]

15. It takes a while to catch on.

But what restauranteurs find out, is that an entire segment of the population stopped going to restaurants and bars BECAUSE of the smoke. When the smoke is banished, they return. With their money.

New York began with teeny tiny token No Smoking sections. Which got larger, and larger, and larger simply because the demand was so great. At which point we went to all No Smoking. Because BUSINESS found it was better.

You and the other smokers will find fewer and fewer venues defying the law and catering to your habit. The restaurant owners will go where the money is.

[The Straight Story]

17. Then let the market decide it, not the law

Non-smokers can open all the places they want - from food joints to bars. No one said that places had to allow smoking.

[bliss_eternal]

25. As a former restaurant server--

that occasionally worked smoking sections, I speak from experience. That section was rarely full--in a hard drinking, smoking city--Chicago! I was always surprised when I worked that section and more didn't want to sit in smoking, as so many seemed to smoke there. Then again, it could have been our restaurant wasn't popular w/smokers.

:shrug:

Times change, people change.

I live with and am married to a reformed smoker--he's one of the worst kind. He can't stand to be around it now AT ALL. Thankfully, we live in CA.

[Clark2008]

34. Just the opposite down here

It's hard to get a smoking seat. But, then again, most smoking sections are near the bar. Makes sense.

I guess it depends on where you live.

[benEzra]

73. I don't know about you,

but I (a lifelong nonsmoker, and married to a nonsmoker with asthma) just go to places that have good nonsmoking sections. If my neighbor wants to go to a smoking bar, fine with me. Why shut down his bar just because I wouldn't want to go there?

That's the part I don't understand. Even if you don't want to be around smokers at all, why the hell pass a law saying that NO establishment, ANYWHERE, is allowed to cater to a smoking clientele? If anything, the law should merely require prominent labeling as to whether an establishment is smoking or smoke-free, and set air quality standards for nonsmoking sections. Not ban smoking entirely.

I don't see this as being any different from religious fundamentalists trying to shut down all strip clubs. If you don't like the atmosphere, don't go there, but don't force your choices on everyone else at gunpoint.

[stephinrome]

40. In Italy the ban is actually enforced

Smoking ban in ALL public places passed last year. No one thought it would be enforced. I went to a little dive blues bar in Rome the first night to test it and amazingly, no one was smoking. And it has been enforced ever since.

The only place I find people still smoke are at meetings of the anti-war movement. ;-)

Steph

[TexMexDem]

46. Ban the banning....

In Austin, the smoking ban in bars has been in effect for several months. Several friends of mine who work in bars all tell me that they have lost money due to the ban. I know there are a few lawsuits on the books against the smoking ban.

I for one believe that a smoking ban should be up to the bar owner. Maybe have a tax incentive for non-smoking bars.

Besides, we are just worried about TABC arresting us for being "drunk" in a bar.

[bliss_eternal]

49. Welcome to DU, TexMexDem--

:hi:

[SeattleGirl]

71. There you go! Leave it up to the owners.

I like your idea of a tax incentive too. Good thinking, Tex!

[crispini]

74. Welcome and c'mon by the Texas forum

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=180

to meet lots of your local fellow Dems! :hi:

[dogday]

77. Bingo!!!!!!!

Another thing, you think this banning shit will stop with smoking think again.. All of you that agree with this be ready for the next thing to be banned.. You know soda is not good for you, we should ban that.. Alcohol should be banned, not good, people die as well.. Lets see, what about people with tattoos? We don't like seeing that in public....

Be careful what you wish for!!!!!!!!

[Raine]

50. Seems to work here in Los Angeles

I never see smoking where it isn't supposed to be. :thumbsup: I'm glad cause I don't like having to breath smelly smoke. :-)

[bliss_eternal]

53. Just don't go to Disneyland in the summer--

it gets bad there. People have a tendency to light up outside of the designated smoking areas, and get real pissy with the teenaged workers asking them not to. :scared:

Oh, and don't visit governor musclehead. I hear he erected a special tent where he smokes his imported cigars. :eyes:

[SeattleGirl]

72. Rude people suck!

Regardless of why they are being rude.

[Beaverhausen]

81. Really? I don't see people smoking outside of "Tobaccoland"

They are usually pretty quick to stop those who smoke outside of the boundries - as well they should be.

[SeattleGirl]

83. "Tobaccoland"??

:rofl:

[Beaverhausen]

86. Everytime my boyfriend wanted a smoke he'd say "Lets go to tobaccoland"

Good god...nothing like a small space filled with desperate looking people smoking away!

[SeattleGirl]

88. I read an LTTE some years ago, written by a person who had

just moved here from New York. They were driving through the downtown area, on a somewhat nasty day, and saw all these people huddled in doorways and under awnings. The person thought, "My, I didn't realize Seattle had so many homeless people." The person later found out that what she was seeing were all the smokers huddled together, trying to stay out of the rain!

:rofl:

[Katherine Brengle]

79. The ban is upheld here in Massachusetts...

Don't know about your area, but this law is strictly enforced here.

[0007]

85. Good!

[Texasgal]

80. Same thing happened here in Austin..

Until the fines started coming down! 500.00 per violation. That's when people started to stop.