I am a moderate on the immigration issue

[bluestateguy]

Many liberal democracies that we celebrate here at DU actually have rather stringent immigration laws. A sovereign nation-state is well within its rights to maintain standards for citizenship and immigration, and to give certain privileges to citizens that non-citizens will not receive. However, I voted against California's proposition 187 in my first election in 1994.To deprive illegal immigrants of health care and education is not the same thing as saying that only US citizens should be allowed to vote.

I oppose this guest worker plan because it will only encourage employers to hire more cheap labor immigrants, thus driving the wage scale down for everybody. These workers will be preferred by employers because they will be less likely to unionize and less likely to stir up labor agitation. Some say that guest workers will do the jobs that Americans won't do. I don't buy this argument. If you create scarcity in the labor market for these jobs, then employers will have to raise wages, and then Americans will do these jobs. However, I would not be opposed to allowing illegal immigrants who have been in America for several years to apply for amnesty, provided they have no criminal record.

We have the right to guard our borders. And we should. There are real terrorists in the world who would seek to do America harm, and the US border is one venue through which they could get into the country.

[fasttense]

1. Well put bluestateguy.

Earned Legalization by itself will not change anything.

We must stop providing incentives for people to become illegals and we must have some amount of control over our borders. Without removing enticements for illegals and controlling our borders, earned legalization is nothing more than an amnesty program.

[bowens43]

3. What's wrong with amnesty?

[bowens43]

2. Moderate???

Hardly. You are far to the right of moderate.

No, 'sovereign nation-states' do not have rights. People have rights and those rights are not or at least should not be determined by an accident of birth.


I am so disgusted by the anti-immigrant sentiments here at DU.

[Skidmore]

4. I agree with the OP. I don't suppose it would help to point out

that nation states are made up of people. I don't believe that at the current time we are able to support the people born here fully let alone take on the people from outside who see this nation as a golden palace on the hill. It's a sand castle that is waiting for high tide to carry it away. Do not assume the tide I'm referring to is immigrants--there's a whole sea of debt out there just waiting to overwhelm us all. The Great Depression is going to look like a cakewalk by the time we get done destroying ourselves and the rest of the world.

[fasttense]

9. At the risk of becoming your target, bowens43,

you are buying into brush's ploy. Brush wants you to think that anyone who is for holding US corporations accountable for hiring illegally is a racists and anti-immigrant. That way he skates on the issue of how these corporations are making billions off the backs of the illegals. A lot of people buy into his ploy.

[magellan]

12. Like it or not we live in a world made up of borders and laws

...meant to protect economies and assert sovereignty. Yes, the laws are applied haphazardly and in some cases unfairly. Yes, change needs to happen. Perhaps some time in the distant future when the human race gets over itself, people will look back in universal disgust at our efforts to compartmentalize ourselves and our belongings. But right now, customary and usual law states you cannot enter another country for any purpose and expect rights to be handed to you if you fail to present your case to that country's immigration authorities first. At this point in history, advocating open borders is an idealistic dream -- nothing more.

[bluestateguy]

13. If that was right wing, then I just can't win.

I voted against 187 and endured a great deal of heckling from people I knew because of it. It passed with 59% of thr vote. I sailed against the wind, and I stand by that position today.

[Cobalt Violet]

14. May I ask what you do for a living?

Just curious.

[rpannier]

5. Your line of thinking is what killed feudalism you know.

After the Black Plague, people were able to move where they wanted to, make real money and live their own lives.

On a serious note. You raise many valid points. I live and work in Korea, I used to work in Prague. The Korean government, like most Democracies protect their borders. In many democracies there are laws that say that a certain percent of your companies workforce must be citizens of that country. I think it's 50% in Canada and at one time I think Australia was around 70%. (I got those figures from a friend of mine back in 83, so I have no way of verifying their validity)

As to driving down the wages, one only has to look at tech companies like IBM in the late 90's for proof of what you say. They manipulated the guest worker program so they could hire people from places like India to work for them. The Chicago Tribune reported in 2003, that IBM paid their guest workers less money than they did "full-time employees."

The problem you run into trying to have a rational discussion on this topic is that there are people who immediately accuse you of being a racist and hating non-whites because of your position.
Every country's population is made up of people who came from somewhere else if you go back far enough in history. The Celts in Ireland came from England. The Anglos, Saxons and Normans in England came from Germany and Denmark. Many Koreans are descendants of Chinese or Mongols. The Native Americans originated from China, Korea, Mongolia, etc. So the US is hardly unique in that sense.

To say you want stricter controls on the borders does not make anyone a racist or a xenophobe (IMO). In cases like yours, it's acknowledging that the country can only accommodate so many people. The US has seen a dip in real earned income over the past six years and two of the biggest factors, I think, are outsourcing and a glut of people for the labor market. The more people we let in, the harder it becomes to get better wages for people, the easier it is to break unions.

As long as the controls on immigration are equal across the board for people coming from any part of the world I would agree the restrictions are a good idea.

[darkmaestro019]

6. I'm with Hartmann on this.

Throw the employers in jail for one year, for any hiring of illegal immigrants. Period.

Hartmann says it prettier than I do, lol.

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0308-20.htm


A fat-ass fine and being forced to pay them what a legal worker would've made in one chunk before they go would be nice too. And yes, I know why the GOP will never allow this, you know, workable solution. Why, the profits they'd lose!


One reply to this Hartmann statement on HuffPo said "And then you'll pay $20 for a big mac" I don't post there because it's a hornet's nest, lol, and whatever I'd have said is usually already there--but that one almost made me figure out how to go about it. I'm not much on a "free" market, honestly--if I were Imperator I'd flatly say that the additional labor costs MUST COME FROM PROFITS and costs may not be raised--but even in this crappy system we have, whatever you'd call it, come on. They might try that shit at first, and then when nobody buys them the price will drop. And, oh yeah--people will be able to AFFORD higher prices if they have higher wages. Blaming the immigrants themselves for seeking a better situation is insanity. That's what lifeforms DO.

[B Calm]

11. Republicans will never fine and jail employers. You have to realize

we are dealing with a political party who has brainwashed their suck up voters into believing if you make a corporation comply to environmental laws, they'll close down the factory. These people will never wake up!

[izzie]

15. Why would they? Their taxes have been cut, we pay

Looks to me like another nail to kill off the middle class. I think people should come in as it makes our country better but I think we should know who is coming in and in some order. They have to be able to become Am or the country is going. If we keep voting in men who sell out to special interest that will be our gov. Am. as we know it will be dead.

[sandnsea]

7. Which guest worker program?

They aren't the same.

[Devlzown]

8. I agree.

We all know how companies operate these days. This whole issue is about getting more cheap labor for greedy corporations. If I believed Congress was going to pass new labor-friendly laws that would make it harder for corporations to take advantage of the situation, I wouldn't be concerned about increased immigration. But Congress isn't going to do that. There will just be more competition for the few low-paying, shitty jobs that are available now.

[fasttense]

10. Good point Devlzown. n/t