How Much Of It Is Xenophobia?

[cali]

What is the basis of the anti-immigration sentiment that's sweeping the country? Who knows exactly, why a movement takes off and captures the public imagination? It's almost impossible to pinpoint all the causes and to accurately assign the correct weight of each element. In part this is because it's an ever shifting picture, but I do think we have to ask how much is simple xenophobia?

For over five years now, the administration and other scaremongers have created an environment rich in fear. We've been told that those from outside want to harm us and destroy our way of life. It may seem illogical for people to transfer that fear to Mexicans and other Latinos, but by its very nature, xenophobia is irrational. The less success we've had in our endeavors throughout the world, the greater the fear. The more we're hated by others, the easier it is for us to hate.

I'm not suggesting that there aren't legitimate reasons to oppose large scale illegal immigration, and people who do so without fearing and hating anybody. Nevertheless it's distressingly easy to find fear and hate in this anti-immigration groundswell.

[Eurobabe]

1. For me it's not a matter of xenophobia

It's a matter of playing by the rules and cutting the line. My husband is an immigrant. He, however, came here legally on a Visa, went through the INS, paid his dues. It took 5 long years. Meanwhile millions of others think they can just come and do what they please without going through proper channels. Talk about slicking in front of those who have been in the que waiting, going about the immigration process according to the RULES. This is what makes me so damn angry about all of this.

I mean where is the outrage? Do you like it when others butt in your line? What message are we sending?

[bowens43]

4. Sure and because of this

let's jail millions of people who have had the audacity to try to improve their lot in life by coming to America and working hard to feed and educate their children. Let's round'em all up, hunt'em down and put them in cattle cars and ship them back to Mexico to starve to death and return to poverty so that you and your husband don't feel cheated.....

selfishness is a conservative value.

[rockymountaindem]

29. Selfishness is a conservative value

Adherance to the law, which is all this is about, is a civilized value.

[Dorian Gray]

42. My ex husband

went through the immigration process legally. It was a pain in the ass, and it took TWO YEARS to get his Green Card. But, he was able to work aftr only a few weeks. INS can make the process more expeditious. I understand that, and I advocate for that. I understand why people don't want to wade through that dreck.

But, I've lived overseas. I've always followed, to the truest point of the law, the immigration rules of the countries that I moved to. I respected their laws, and I lived their laws.

If people don't want to respect our laws, I don't know if I want them to live here.

(And I've also worked with different immigrant groups. I don't want anybody who is in our country to starve or die because of our policies. That's wrong! But, I don't like that many come here illegally, either. It's unfair, and it's breaking our laws.)

[cali]

6. I pointedly stated in my post

that there are people who opposed illegal immigration who aren't xenophobic. Regarding your cutting in line comparison; I think it's not a very good one. The immigration debate is a bit more complex than that. I guess I'm not outraged about illegal immigrattion. I haven't really formulated an opinion about whether it poses a threat, or whether or not it's fair. I'm just interested in what comprises a large national movement.

[Cobalt Violet]

17. May I ask what you do for a living?

Just curious.

[bowens43]

2. I think it's 60% xenophobia , 20% stupidity

and 20% Democrats who are so pissed at Bush that they are willing to take any stand, no matter how vile, as long as that stand is in opposition to the administration. The guest worker program is a good thing. Complete amnesty would be a better thing.

[KharmaTrain]

3. It's The Politics Of Division

The Repugnican party is built on a coaltion of the hating...groups that's main "button" is the hatred of another or some over zealous defense of their own turf. For decades the GOOP built it strength in the South, West and Southwest as being the defender of the "white man"...creating buzzwords that didn't say it outright, but was easily implied in those regions that the whites were, are and always will be dominant over any other group in that region.

Mexicans are an easy target for Repugnicans because it's so easy to pick on an alien culture rather than to understand it. It's far easier to pick on them for their inability to speak English as being "inferior", thus making the white anglo look and feel superior. It's far easier to go with age-old stereotypes of Mexicans being lazy or sleezy or drug runners or whatever boogie man you wanted, since it created a nice target to generate votes and win elections.

Yes, there's a xenophobia within the Repugnican party...it's a fear of 99% of the world. Look at all the groups that party opposes. From women to blacks to gays to hispanics to arabs and so on...the systemic racism of the Repugnican party has become the glue that holds that "big tent" together.

Be assured "at the end of the day", the bigots and xenophobes will "win"...as hatred is far easier to spread and capitalize on than education and understanding.

[rman]

5. Which anti-immigration movement?

The one that wants to criminalize illegal immigration even more then it is now, by means the proposed new immigration legislation,

Or the one where even immigrants protest that same legislation because they consider it to be inhumane?

Of course the latter gets support from those who oppose any kind of immigration, especially that of people of color - but that's hardly characteristic of the movement that opposes this new legislation.

I don't think much has changed in recent times regarding sentiments towards immigration - what has changed is there now is this controversial proposal for new immigration legislation.

[acmavm]

7. Hey, I can solve this problem. Very simple. Just let everyone

in. No immigration laws, no quotas, nothing. Just open the damn borders.

Hell, we can't get medical care for people who have been here for generations (of which I am one). So let's just pile more in here and make sure that we never get medical care. I mean, 11 million more people. WTF? A good paying job? Hey, let me get in that line. I want one to. I have a son to support. Where's my protest? My son needs dental care. My brother just had his truck repo'd because he can't make it on his salary. 700 plus old people in my community are hurting because the government has cut out the once a month commodity program that gave them cheese and butter and powdered milk. That's how they got by at the end of the month.

Why should these people go and demand that their government do the right thing by them? Hell, this is America. They can come here and march and demand that we let them stay and grant them full rights. So what cheap labor has hurt the standard of living? People keep throwing around that cheesy agument "they do work Americans won't do". Sounds good but it's really bullshit. Americans think they should be paid a livable wage. We had made great strides for the American worker. Until the sixties. Let me give you and example. Omaha had the largest stock yards in the nation, maybe even the world. We have slaughter houses and packing plants up the wazoo. Everyone in South Omaha worked there. Then the facilities started closing down. Going to places like Phoenix. Where there was tons of cheap immigrant labor. DO YOU KNOW WHAT THAT DID TO THOUSANDS OF FAMILIES HERE? It was devastating. And the same thing happened in Cherokee, Iowa. The Wilson Plant provided work for hundreds. But then, cheap immigrant labor started to move in. Same story, another location.

The black male population has an unemployment rate of over 11%. They are discriminated against big time. I sit at the front desk of a manufacturing plant. Men, mostly black, come in here all the time asking if we're hiring. And they say that they will take ANYTHING. I don't see anyone marching in the streets for black men, citizens of this country.

Don't bother with the racist remarks. I don't want to hear any more of that pathetic whiny crap. It is time to understand that you bet your ass these people deserve to be employed, that they deserve to be given a decent livable wage. But if they want to take to the streets, take to the streets of their own country. THE INN IS FULL FOLKS. The American Dream is turning into the American nightmare. We cannot take care of ourselves.

What is it about the word 'illegal' that is so hard for some people to understand?

[Bridget Burke]

11. So--instead of protesting for good jobs & health care for all....

You'll sit at your PC & rail at those who dare to take to the streets.

Perhaps it's time we got some new blood in the country. Instead of those who would rather blame the newcomers than the people at the top.

[acmavm]

14. We can't pay for good jobs and health care for ALL. It's a damn

fool's dream to think that we can pay for that for EVERYONE. I always have to laugh when somebody comes up with a Utopian scheme that flies in the face of reality. Not everyone is employed by a Fortune 500 company sweetie. In fact, the majority of the citizens of this country aren't. So even if you pick on them, it ain't gonna get the job done. We need national health care. But that can't ever happen if we just let the country be flooded by immigrant labor.

And you didn't address one single thing in my post. Not one. All you did was make a stupid statement about 'maybe we should get some new blood in this country'.

Maybe we should try to adequately take care of the people we have here already. Including the foreigner that are here LEGALLY.

[LostinVA]

27. We certainly CAN pay for health care for all

And we certainly CAN have decent wages for the majority of people. TPTB just aren't interested in doing so. Doing this isn't Utopia. It's called being Sweden. Or Holland. Or even Canada. Just caring about citizens. That isn't unreality -- it IS reality. And, it has nothing to do with immigrants (I notice you didn't say illegal immigrants, so are you against all immigration?).

And, seriously: why do you need to personally insult the poster? Calling her "sweetie" and saying she's stupid? I never understand when people do that just because someone disagrees... in reaction to something, yes.

And, the odds are good I make less than many people on DU,a nd I welcome people into this country. It's how I'm here today. It's how YOU'RE here today.

And, wtf does NHS have to do with immigrants???

Bah -- tired of the xenophobes on DU...

[acmavm]

38. Bah to you too. I'm sick of people who scream racism all the

time. And sick of people just saying yeah, we do this and we can do that, hell we can do it all. And then NEVER explaining how they think this marvelous plan can all come together.

[Bridget Burke]

45. Guess you hear a lot of people screaming "racism" in your direction?

I wonder why. And don't call me "sweetie."

Sure, let the Republicans convince you that those odd-looking people are to blame for all our problems.

[acmavm]

57. Actually people who know me know better. When I was in

high school (a private girl's Catholic boarding school) on some weekends I got to leave. And the family I stayed with were named Martinez, Benny and Mary and their kids Barb (my best friend) and Debbie (her little sister).

So believe me when I tell you that I think you're full of it, and too full of yourself for your own or anyone's good.

Don't let the nasty bubble of reality disturb you too much.

[Cobalt Violet]

19. She said nothing that "blamed the newcomers".

[LostinVA]

28. Of course she did

She said things couldn't be done in this country because of immigrants... immigrants=newcomers.

And, BB's other point is correct, it's also one uses against labor unions: instead of trying to get something for everything, it's better to point te finger at people who aren't causing the provblem...

[OhioChick]

13. Very good post and points! n/t

[400Years]

18. immigration isn't stopping you from getting health care

the crooks in DC are the ones getting in the way of access to healthcare.

There is plenty of money to go around but it's all being sent to Iraq.

[raccoon]

23. Right on! National health care in the US is going to be

a hard, bitter fight. Immigrants or no immigrants.

[acmavm]

25. I'm glad that things are so simple, at least in your mind. It must

be wonderful to be able to just say, whee, there's jobs and health care and plenty for everyone. Just come on in. We can pay for everybody.

Why does it not dawn on people that they should be marching in the streets of their own countries? That's where their problems are, not here.

[LostinVA]

32. Things ARE that simple

Things can be turned around in a heartbeat. Not having health acre and jobs ahas NOTHING to do with Mexicans, legal or not, and everything to do with the power infrastructure in this country. But, for some reason, you refuse to accept that.

And believe me, I live basically paycheck to paycheck. And what I have, I've scrapped and sweated and worked to have.

You're blaming the wrong people for everything. You're blaming people who have nothing: no power, no money, nothing. Blame the right people.

Maybe it's just easier to do that. In don't know.

[acmavm]

35. Yeah, I don't work, Never have. Never will. And yes, I do

refuse to accept that fact that thing's are that simple. I'm not that stupid.

[400Years]

52. saying immigration is stopping you from getting healthcare is bullshit

now a trillion dollar boondoggle in iraq is another story

[Bridget Burke]

46. People are marching in the streets of Mexico.

Why aren't we marching in the streets of the USA?

Problems are worldwide.

There's currently NO plan for National Health Care.

[LostinVA]

30. Word-- Dr. Dean said it would cost $100 billion to set up a GOOD

NHS... how much have we spent in Iraq? How much every year do the Corps NOT pay in taxes? Anyone? Bueller???

We have loads of money in the USA... plenty for us, and plenty for immigrants from Mexico. Thinking we don't and pointing the finger at other people is playing RIGHT into the GOP's hands.

You don't think they read this site? You don't think they are frigging ECSTATIC at these type of posts? They love it. They'll use it to keep Congress Red.

[bluedog]

26. I agree 100%

what pisses me off.is they rally...they fly Mexican flags.they think they have the right to NOT obey the laws as many have before them...people have waited their turn to get into the US......we have laws on the books ....the laws should be enforced....this has gotten out of hand and its the governments fault.....the average wait to come into the US from Russia is 999 days and counting.....yet some just walk to border and think they deserve the same treatment as US citizens>>>>>>>

[LostinVA]

34. The Mexican flag thing is straight from Rush

Who cares? I fly the Irish flag instead of the US flag. Go to South Florida sometime.... or to Little Italy. Not every person marching is an "illegal," you know. Most are US citizens. Some of the rhetoric on DU smacks of Birchism.

And, MANY people are in this country illegally, but people only talk about the "Mexicans." Not the Irish, etc. Oh! And how about "Wet Foot, Dry Foot"? Huh?

Fuck it -- I'm hiding this thread. It's pissing me off.

[bluedog]

39. if they are protesting to

stay in the United states..we don't appreciate them waving another' countrys flag......I believe there is 1 word everyone is missing here...ILLEGALS.......

[rman]

31. We could take care of ourselves and some more if only the place wasn't run

by big corporations that rig the system to create cheap labor.

[TahitiNut]

50. You got it

We could also accept far more LEGAL immigrants if there weren't corporate/wealthy forces trying to keep a lid on that pressure cooker so it leaks across (and eventially explodes) in a cascade of workers that are MARGINALIZED and EXPLOITED by the threat of imprisonment, deportation, and loss of opportunity to work in a country where they can't even vote. These are the WET DREAM of corporate oligarchs - labor that's cheaper, 'manageable,' and in no position to vote against the corporate STOOGES running the show.

[rman]

56. i think that's what they call "flexible"

"labor that's cheaper, 'manageable,'"

[acmejack]

8. When people are out of work they are pissed!

Ragging on them & calling them bigots accomplishes little, IMO. In some cases, it obviously justified, but we have to realize that the situation which has been fostered by the corporatists to crush the working class in this Country and the immigrants are being caught in the wrong side of this thing. We have to be careful not be what we condemn, namely bigoted assholes.

The same reasons that drive the immigrants to this Country in the first place make the people here angry and resort to these racist epithets. We all need to calm down & think. We need to be enraged at Congress, the Administrations, past & present, and the Government of Mexico, and most especially the Corporations. Place the blame where it belongs, not on the immigrants, who only wish a better life for their families at any cost, even their lives!

[mdmc]

9. good question Cali!

:kick:

I see the breakdown like this-

100%

25% self interest (poor people that think illegals take jobs awawy)
25% fear (terra)
25% hatred
25% safety concerns

[SoCalDem]

10. Differing amounts

half of the republicans=99% xenophobia

the other half= GREED

................

the rest of us..

probably 30% = xenophobia
30% = fear of losing a job
30% = "crowded cage" syndrome
10% = "Shhhh.. Survivior's on"

[Debau2005]

12. To me this is a shiny keys moment for the

Repigs! They are down in the polls, and need an issue so re-solidify their base. This is the new gay marriage/abortion issue for them.

One issue that seems to be overlooked in this debate is the ports. Right now illegal border immigration from Mexico is less of a problem to me then the fact that our ports are poorly secured, and a large number of containers are never checked. I am more concerned about nucleur or biological material coming in from container ships then I am someone from Central/South America looking for work!

[EFerrari]

37. Bingo! And they've been saving this set of keys for exactly

this moment.

On the other hand, look at the Dems aligning themselves with a bunch of Catholics.

Buckle up. :P

[BlackVelvet04]

15. I think that attitudes have a lot to do with where a person lives.

How many people have lived in an area absolutely inundated with immigrants?

This issue is multifaceted and complex....it's not all about jobs, fear or xenophobia.

I lived in Arizona - 7 miles from the Mexican border. The state is stretched to the breaking point as far as health care, housing, jobs, schools, etc. Immigrants pour across the border day after day and there is just no way the state can afford to pick up the tab and the federal government is offering little assistance from what I saw.

Daily, driving to work I had to go through a border patrol check 20 miles from the Mexican border. How do you think that feels?

For a short period of time I worked on a golf course and daily I would give bottles of water (paid for by me) to illegals who came across the golf course, many of whom could easily have died of thirst in the Arizona desert. I worked with Mexicans, I rented a house from a Mexican, I shopped with Mexicans and I was friends with Mexicans. I enjoy the Mexican people, but I am also smart enough to know that someone has to pick up the tab for illegal immigrants. My husband frequently fed illegals paying for the cost himself.

I also lived in Miami after it was overrun during the Marieleto boat lift from Cuba and saw the same social problems as I witnessed in Arizona.

If you live in an area not directly affected it's really hard to understand what a real problem this all is and it's easy to judge why people feel the way they do. I have all the compassion in the world for the Mexicans fleeing Mexico....Mexicans have been taken advantage of by their government, their religion and now by Americans and it's truly sad, BUT remember, somebody has to pick up the tab and the taxes the illegals pay don't come close to paying the bill just for health care alone. Last I checked the people in the states most affected are picking up the tab and yes, many of them resent it and I can understand why.

I don't know what the answer is but I don't believe it is fair of those who aren't really affected by the issue to judge harshly those who are.

I've told people for a long time that if the federal government wanted to stop illegal immigration it could, but it doesn't want to and bush has proved that. Illegals benefit BIG BUSINESS, businesses who refuse to pick up the tab and take responsibility for the workers they knowingly employ illegally. They pass on the cost to the taxpayers and the taxpayers are fed up.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

16. The immigrants are the new "Welfare Queens" that Reagan scapegoated.

Remember the "Welfare Queens" all riding around in their Cadillacs and living in luxury while churning out numerous kids to collect massive amounts of on?

The thinly veiled racism sold well in his effort to bring "Morning in America", itself a gushing reminiscence of a mythological 1950's wonderland where (white) Dad with his briefcase brought home the bacon to Mom baking cookies and kids named Buffy and Buddy and Scooter all behaved. And, the lesser breeds knew their places and followed orders and loved massa.

It's the same racist/xenophobic crap rehashed and repackaged.

[BlackVelvet04]

20. With some people it might be but that's not the entire answer.

Move to Arizona for a year or so and then see what you think.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

22. I lived L.A. most of my life.

Plenty of immigrants there. I now live in Washington State and we get our fair share from around the world. Come summer and we'll be flooded with pickers.

As I said in another post, I recently underwent surgery. One of the nurses was from Ukraine, another from Kazakhstan. The cleaning lady was from El Salvador. I helped a Mexican unload a his truck at the recyclers. My guess is that some of them were "illegals". I just thought them good workers and interesting people to talk to.

Maybe I should have demanded to see their "papers" before talking to them.

[BlackVelvet04]

24. why would you want to see their papers before talking to them?

Oh, I get it, you're being snarky.

I lived 7 miles from the Mexican border. I rented a house from Mexicans, shopped with Mexicans, worked with Mexicans and was friends with Mexicans. BUT I also know what illegals were doing to the economy of the state. We need a real solution and sarcasm doesn't contribute a lot to the discussion.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

33. What do you think of the Kennedy/McCain proposal?

I think it's a step in the right direction.

As for the snarky reply - You inferred that I was unaware of the problem because I wasn't in real contact with illegals.

But, I do apologize and agree that a real solution is needed. For all concerned, including the immigrants.

My feeling is that this country needs to pressure the corporations to pay decent wages to everyone that they hire no matter what they're status is.

If we can cough up a few hundred billion to paint schools in Iraq, I think we could possibly afford to provide the necessary services to the poor in this country without bankrupting ourselves.

[BlackVelvet04]

40. It's impossible to be aware

of everyone's history and I've found many people who don't have a problem with illegal immigrants live in areas where there isn't a problem with illegal immigrants. I apologize for assuming you had no contact with the problem. I have to admit that it's something that affects my life little since I left Arizona and it's easy to quickly forget sometimes what a struggle it is for others.

I've been preaching corporate responsibility for the illegal immigration problem for years. Hole the high paid ceo's responsible for hiring illegals...jail time. We'll see a quick change I think.

"If we can cough up a few hundred billion to paint schools in Iraq, I think we could possibly afford to provide the necessary services to the poor in this country without bankrupting ourselves."

Unfortunately we can't afford the few hundred billion to paint schools in Iraq, either. That's why the debt ceiling was lifted once again.

[Bridget Burke]

47. So--what do you think of the DEMOCRATIC proposal....

Once again, a supposed Democrat gets all upset when people dare to march against the Republicans.

(Note: I live in Texas.)

[BlackVelvet04]

53. Once again, someone being snarky

because of reading something into what I'm saying.

I haven't read the democratic proposal as I've been extremely busy. What I'm saying is that I can understand why people are upset....I also understand why people leave Mexico in any way they can.

Supposed democratic????? You took a couple of comments and decided I'm not a democratic and I'm upset because people dare to march against the republicans? Did you see somewhere that I was upset about the march? Or that I support the republican plan? Or are you just making unfounded assumptions?

[TahitiNut]

44. "The immigrants are..."?? Don't you mean the ILLEGAL immigrants?

It's really, really easy to ignore the valid positions people take in opposition to ILLEGAL immigration when all one has to do is read their minds and ascribe evil motives. Heck, let's never listen to one another ... let's just rephrase (all immigrants) and engage in name-calling.

My grandparents were (legal) immigrants. They worked through the entire Depression, primarily because employers were happy to use the "xenophobia card" to divide the workforce. "Filthy Scandahoovians" they were called. They raised four sons and a daughter. All four sons served in the military, two of them in Europe during WW2.

It's NOT about "immigrants" as far as I'm concerned - it's about illegal immigrants and draconian limits on LEGAL immigration that does nothing but serve cheap-labor employers who'll never miss any opportunity to exploit prejudice, bigotry, and human deprivation. It's no accident that Mexico's "plantation economy" and rule by the oligarchs is supported by the privileged in the US. No accident at all.

It's a bonus to these employers that they can "divide and conquer" the workforce by infecting people with the noxious virus of racism and jingoism ... and act in ways to pour salt in those wounds.

[Virginia Dare]

21. I don't hate anyone for coming here..

trying to make their life better. I'm pissed that our government turns a blind eye to the people that hire them. Okay, so they are doing jobs that Americans "don't want to do". Well, then if employers want to hire these people then they need to sponsor them. Help them through the system and MAKE THEM LEGAL. They (employer and employee) need to pay their fair share of taxes. They need to make a fair and prevailing wage. They need to become responsible citizens of this country.

The guest worker program is bullshit. All it is doing is making it legal for employers to pay these people piss-poor wages. They will send their money back home. They will contribute little or nothing to the communities in which they reside. It will end up dragging us all down.

The way I see it, we have two options--bring back an Ellis Island-type situation where all immigrants are screened and legalized, then send them on their merry way. Or close the borders and pour our resources into propping up the Mexican economy, so that these people can have a decent life in their own country.

[Ilsa]

36. My husband is ready for all immigration to be put on hold, and I

don't blame him. We are feeling too crowded. It isn't about race or culture or language, or even jobs. We simply feel like the US is too crowded and cannot support this level of population growth. Neither can the planet, IMO.

[Bridget Burke]

48. Once again, the anti-All Immigration voice is heard...

Let's turn the USA into a gated community & ignore the world outside.

[Ilsa]

54. I think it is really more of a fear of overpopulation.

If the population problem were solved worldwide, he wouldn't care. He travels internationally, grew up an Army brat, and doesn't discriminate. He is just tired of feeling "crowded out".

[Neil Lisst]

41. I see some haven't read Skinner's thread today.

I ask those who are attacking personally others on this issue to stand back and take a look. You're slamming other long time Democrats - many of whom have been in the fight a long, long time - with names, accusations, and relentless personal attacks.

The Americans who are losing jobs and suffering economic erosion in their lives are part of the Democratic coalition, part of who we represent. We don't just represent the leftmost 20% of the nation.

I am empathetic with both the illegal worker and the person whose job he takes. The question is not one of whose heart at DU bleeds most profusely for the plight of the illegal worker. It is instead what can we do to protect American jobs while still showing compassion to the many who either have or want to come here.

We cannot simply yell "yall come!" and let everyone who wants enter the country come on down. Recalling that the US was once hungry for immigrants is great, but it doesn't change the fact that times change and this issue is one of them. I would remind others than when the US had such open immigration, women couldn't vote and you could marry a 13 year old, buy and use any kind of drug you could get your hands on, and work children 14 hours a day. Times change, and so does the US need for immigration.

This is a complex issue, and anyone who can't discuss it without resorting to nasty name-calling and short, pissy comments should avoid the topic.

[cali]

43. Whoa, Neil.

My post contained no nasty name calling, nor was it a short pissy comment. Furthermore, I explicitly acknowledged that many people who believe something needs to be done about the issue are not xenophobic. I was looking at the role of xenophobia and the conditions that create it. Truly, that is something worth looking at. It wasn't meant to denigrate anyone's POV on this topic. The tone of my post should have tipped you off to that. I actually don't have a position on illegal immigration one way or the other.

[Neil Lisst]

49. Sorry. I wasn't really referring to your post, but others I've read.

My post was really addressed to responders as a whole, not you, and I failed to make that clear.

I didn't want to respond to a specific poster because that would invite a personal battle that I do not seek.

I should have written an appropriate intro to my post, saying clearly it was not a response to the OP, but a general comments on replies to the OP and other posters.

In my head I thought that, but didn't get around to the part about typing it in the post!

[BlackVelvet04]

55. Yes, it is complex,

but I guess as a "supposed" democrat I shouldn't see but one side of the issue. ;-)

[Finder]

51. Classism has a lot to do with it.

I think many that are having the knee jerk reactions have been hit adversely in the job market. Rather than blame the economics brought on by this administration, they are falling for the scapegoat of illegal immigration. I am sure the powers that be intend for this to happen.

Also, the cited numbers of immigrants are assumed to be Mexican immigrants by many rather than immigrants from all over the world. Many don't realize that Polish guy working at the variety store or that strapping Canadian roofer is part of the cited statistic.

I think a lot of assumptions are playing into the debate. It seems to be assumed that undocumented workers do not get a living wage and although I am sure there are many cases where they are not, many are paid the same wage as documented workers.

It depends on the state or region as well. Many who come across as racist seem to live in areas with high immigration areas and have adopted the "us vs them" mentality.

I am shocked at the accusations against the middle class. Hiring people, documented or undocumented, to mow your lawn or clean your home or build a deck or sit your children is spit upon. Most of the middle class are third generation from immigrants--legal and illegal. Many of the grandparents came to the US and cooked and cleaned and did manual labor in order for their children to have a better life. And they do. I am not saying all but most respect those who come here to do the same thing and are willing to give back by hiring them. It is quite common in most ethnic communities--Polish, Italian, Irish, Latino, Asian, etc.

Another aspect is the agriculture business. Many of these farms are family farms. Although I disagree that Americans refuse to do some of these jobs, it is not practical in most instances. These farms need laborers to live on the premises for months at a time. Most treat the workers well and the workers return year after year.

[Xithras]

58. For me, it's mostly environmental.

I'm a ZPG supporter, and I want all population growth to end. The US has a fairly stagnant population, which is a good thing, and yet we're still in the middle of one of the most environmentally destructive trends in our nations history: unchecked sprawl. Why are our cities growing? Because our population is growing by over 3 million people a year. Between one third and one half of that growth is driven by immigration, directly contributing to sprawl and rampant environmental destruction.

It's impossible to be pro-population growth AND pro-environment. Given the choice, I choose trees over people.

http://www.npg.org/ No Population Growth