DU can solve the illegal immigration problem, if we want to. I do.

[blondeatlast]

Let's get rid of the same old cliches and platitudes--I won't mention my Irish ancestors, etc. if you won't bring up the obvious fact that it is an illegal act, etc.

It's one huge problem that touches on so very many issues. A concerted effort to solve it may have far-reaching positive effects on a number of issues--health care, labor rights, poverty, and so on.

So what part of your position are you willing to waiver on? What new idea can you bring to the table? Many of the best ideas I've heard have gone hidden in rancorous threads. Let's bring 'em out in a one-stop shopping thread for our policymakers and movers and shakers.

We can start with the obvious and work from there.

Are you game?

[radwriter0555]

1. A North American Union of course, modeled on the EU, learning from

its growing pains and designed for the US, Mexico and Canada, as a cooperative venture.

It makes the most sense, therefore, the republicans will hate it.

[bowens43]

3. Never thought of that!

It is a VERY good idea.

[Finder]

4. Actually, we will have no choice...

with the way South America is consolidating. The next decade will be an interesting one for sure.

[earthmama]

11. don't think that will ever happen

but it is great idea.

[Adelante]

25. That's what I say, too

I know Mexicans and Canadians won't go for it, even if Americans would, and I'm not too sure we would. Still, I see it as inevitable. It's the way the world is going.

[radwriter0555]

27. If you build it right, it has only pluses for everyone. And to be able to

learn from the EU experiences would be incredibly valuable.

[TahitiNut]

32. Will the laws of Canada and the US be changed to match Mexico's ...

... or will the laws and economic policies of Mexico be changed to match the US and Canada? Doing the latter would have prevented this problem at the outset!

The source of the 'problem' is the obscenely predatory economic system in Mexico and countries like it. Maintaining such a system across a porous border from where (eager and willing) predatory employers salivate for plantation labor is a recipe for what we're seeing.

[bowens43]

2. My opinion......

1. Strengthen border security to cut down on the flow of illegal immigrants.

2. Amnesty and fast track citizenship (subject to criminal background check) for all of those undocumented workers and their families who are already here.

[BlackVelvet04]

13. Our government does not want to cut down on the flow of

illegal immigrants. Border patrol is ineffective because it is meant to be ineffective. I can't tell you how many times I saw border patrol agents sleeping in their SUVs in the desert. Or how many times I saw ten of them standing around talking at border check points (20 miles from the border, I might add) while one actually did the work. Or how many times I called border patrol only to have them never show up.

[blondeatlast]

17. My experiences at the Nogales entry station...

Right there at the Nogales entry, we say dozens of people crossing over the razor-wired fences--and get this--SQUEEZING THROUGH THE BARS OF THE CIRCULAR GATES--SUCCESSFULLY. It was painful as hell to watch, but a few of them managed. This occurred not 10 feet from the re-entry office (this was before a passport was required to enter Mexico).

What I drew from this is that BP is overwhelmed, terribly understaffed and obviously not well-paid.

In short, if it was relatively easy to stop a crosser in his/her tracks, they'd get stopped. That meant one in maybe a hundred got stopped while the others managed to get through.

[Greyhound]

43. Been done, didn't work. n/t

[IndyOp]

5. Work from top down & bottom up:

Top Down:
Provide adequate inspectors to catch businesses that violate labor laws and levy BIG fines.

Bottom Up:
The people must join together to create strong unions in all fields -- if jobs paid well, American workers would take them.

[northzax]

6. simple

enforce existing labor laws. Punish anyone who hires an undocumented worker with jail time. say, six months a pop. when the manager of the local chicken processing plant is serving a 75 year sentance, the next guy might think twice. When the local contracter is serving 50 years for hiring 100 undocumented workers, the next guy will think twice. no fines, jail. consecutive sentences.

remove the incentive to risk everything and come here, and you will dramatically reduce the number of people who come.

[PuraVidaDreamin]

7. Universal health care and immigration compliment each other

If we can get Big Insurance out of the way!

[Minnesota Libra]

8. Everything but border security could be up for discussion but.............

....strict border security (both borders) must be put in place and so far that's what neither party seems willing to do.

Another issue that needs to be kept/put in place in one form or another is huge fines for corporations or even common citizens hiring illegal aliens for any reason. Doesn't matter whether it's moving someone's lawn, or working for big corporations. This would be the teeth of the issue.

Beyond that there is still plenty to compromise on.

[blondeatlast]

18. This is the kicker for me. I'm in favor of beefing up border security

but it's going to cost, big time. My experiences at the border (see downthread) show that BP is woefully ubderstaffed and quite frankly really don't give a rat's ass.

Get this--there appeared to be ONE agent on duty--in the guard station, not outside--at the NOGALES POE. One. I watched as dozens of crossers entered over fences and squeezing (it still gives me chills) through circular gate bars.

There was another guard checking cars. In the ~15 minutes we were there, dozens got through on foot and there was no one to stop them and maybe 5 cars made it through.

Something is very wrong here...

[blondeatlast]

9. Damn! See. I leave to make my son's breakfast and already we're

rolling!

And no rancor yet!

Nice work, gang.

[bryant69]

10. I don't know

I mean I don't know how you get around the fact that it is an illegal act - and I don't know how we have a discussion about illegal immigration that ignores the most salient point about it.

That said I think you have three areas you can improve.

1. You can reevaluate legal immigration - obviously this flow is too narrow, and if widened will lower the amount of people coming into this country illegally - some of these immigration quotas are based on blatent racism, and could stand some looking at.

2. You need to dry up the pond further by seriously punishing those enteprises that choose to exploit illegal aliens. In other words, rather than seeking to punish people for trying to come to this country, punish the real villians in this story.

3. FInally there probably are some improvements to boarder security that should be made. Illegal aliens are a security risk, both for the United States and for the illegal aliens themselves.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Dhalgren]

12. Here's a list that seems to be forming...

1. Stronger/better border security.

2. Stronger/better labor laws and strict compliance.

3. Living wage for all jobs and human scale benefits.

4. More formal grouping with Mexico and Canada (maybe Central America, too)

5. Make legal immigration a real possibility for the average North American.

6. Reform and muscle-up real labor unions.

Not bad...

[musical_soul]

14. Here's an idea.

Stop telling the world how great of a country we are. Instead, advertise how
we've detained some of the foreigners.

That will keep them from coming.

[DBoon]

15. We have to change how the labor market works

otherwise we will have an inevitable race to the bottom.

My idead is to allow immigration only if imigrants are hired through a union hiring hall, under union contracts.

The union card would be a defacto visa.

I'm looking at the analogy of dockworkers in the 1930's. Pre-union, hiring was controlled by the bosses under a system called the shape-up. It was degrading, allowed no secure employment and pitted workers against worker. After unions, all hires were through a hiring hall, and the union controlled the process.

[blondeatlast]

16. Interesting. How would this work in Right to Work states?

Lord knows I'd love to see RtW abolished for good, but in Arizona, it isn't going to happen anytime soon.

I think the essence of this is to remove employer incentives (and in fact to punish) to hire undocumented workers (which I think nearly all of us can agree on) and strengthen the role of unions, both of which I can strongly support.

[DBoon]

21. We have to abolish RTW

RTW was established by Taft-Hartley, a post WWII Republican intiative to restrict union power. It passed over Truman's veto. Between the passing of the National Labor Relations Act in the 1930's and Taft-Hartley, there was no such thing as a RTW state. Organized labor made overturning Taft-Hartley a priority for decades after.

If the Right Wing can try to overturn the entire New Deal (and almost suceed), we can certainly have the goal of overturning Taft-Hartley.

This is not an immigration issue, it is a labor issue. As a labor issue it requries radical change.

[blondeatlast]

26. I agree about abolishing RtW, but its been tried many times in AZ

without success.

Union power in Arizona, as you know doubt figure, is severely limited. Even the firefighters and police unions have very little power except when it comes to political endorsements. Even then, those candidates they endorse tend to not repay the favor.

Without the risk of hijacking my own thread, any ideas?

[KittyWampus]

30. At Fed level reduce funding to states with RTW laws?

[blondeatlast]

34. A great start if we could get the Feds to do so.

That requires a tremendous push from organized labor since of course bigbid will oppose it at every turn.

I hope to hell the unions will start screaming at the Democrats to be represented.

As I say in the OP, dealing with the immigration issue will have far-reaching consequences--most of them positive, IMHO.

[KittyWampus]

28. DBoon, Your idea is so brilliant, please please Journal it or start its

thread.

Seems to me the whole problem stems from the need of corporations to maintain cheap labor, abuse Labor and break apart Unions.

The antidote is therefore, to strengthen Unions, protect Workers and improve wage and work conditions.

[blondeatlast]

35. I'm with you--this is worthy of a new thread at least. nt

[blondeatlast]

19. Very similar thread in GD/P...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2537919

[Greyhound]

20. Stopping the flood of illegals is simple and I believe the sheeple

would endorse it. It requires no fences, no massive round-ups, no new departments, no troops posted within our borders, just dry up the jobs. Make the penalties for employing illegal aliens severe and criminal and enforce them. Business owners and managers hire illegals because they face no consequences, the existing penalties are weak and rarely, if ever, applied.

I propose $10,000 per/day per/worker for a first offense, and criminal charges with jail time for repeated offenses.

The only objections will come from the corporations that will have to operate within the law, and the politiwhores that depend on our divisiveness to ensure their continued employment.

Nobody in their right mind would risk the very real possibility of dying in the desert, or being abandoned in the back of a trailer, if there was no possibility of finding employment here. IMO.

[blondeatlast]

23. Agreed, and thank you for recognizing the incredible risk these

workers take on. Crossing the Sonoran desert is definitely no walk in the park.

See below for my expansion on this issue.

[jsamuel]

31. well, i would venture to guess that all those jobs that would cease to

exist for illegals would leave thousands of them and their families with no money for food

:shrug:

[Greyhound]

42. They might be inclined to go home then.

and in going home, perhaps they would work to make their nations better.

[jsamuel]

45. sorry, but i don't like leaving people's lives to "perhaps"

You don't solve problems by "might" and "perhaps". Just like we were greeted with "flowers" after the Iraqi invasion...

[Greyhound]

47. The only way to deal with people's lives, from a policy standpoint,

is with perhaps, that's how our system works. You set policy, which causes some peoples behavior to change, which changes the circumstance. If illegal aliens can't find work, they will have various options some will go home, some will try another country (Canada?), some will turn to crime, etc.

People deal with their lives not you or I (except of course yours and mine). :kick:

[DrGonzoLives]

38. Exactly

Make it incredibly unprofitable to hire illegals, and they won't be hired.

The free market can work both ways, if it's steered correctly.

[blondeatlast]

22. Regarding punishing those who hire, which seems to be agreed upon

by nearly all sides of the debate:

We'll be up against big, big money with this approach.

We must recognize the fact that it is going to severely impact some economies, especially in border states. It could be devastating to some industries that are large employers of legal (albeit still cheap and non-unionized; this is a RtW state) legal workers as well, for instance, in Arizona, the tourist industry.

Then there is the construction industry--there's a reason that AZ home prices remain fairly low.

With opposition like this, how do we sell this idea? I will say that even a few Republicans in our state legislature favor this approach and virtually all Democrats do.

First off, we need an organized push for this. We need serious money for ads and PR. We need enough push behind it to get the industries that are most affected to be forced to respond.

So, how do we organize this? Will the unions help? How about Latino/Hispanic organizations? I daresay that the Catholic church will not support this approach, in my opinion, and they have an enormous sway over the H/L community (largely why Kerry didn't take Arizona, I'm afraid).

[KitchenWitch]

24. Employers need to suffer real sanctions for hiring

undocumented workers. Serious fines, etc.

[The Witch]

29. Deportation is not a punishment for being in the country illegally.

That's like saying the punishment for shoplifting is returning the items.

My $.02.

[blondeatlast]

33. Expand on that. We're looking for ideas here, not just positions.

How would you deal with the problem if it were in your power to do so?

If you are in favor of the Sensenbrenner bill, just say so. That is an idea in itself.

Otherwise, with all due respect, posit an idea. That's why I started this thread.

[blondeatlast]

39. Edit; self-delete so as not to hijack my own thread. nt

[Greyhound]

48. Good point. Thank you for pointing that out.

I don't think punishment is called for, merely correcting the situation here. It is for the citizens of those other countries to deal with their countries.

The best way we can help them is to get out of their business, and always support the people. Of course, we never do that anymore.

[crispini]

36. Finally, a constructive thread on this issue. K&R.

I'll be back later with thoughts.

[blondeatlast]

37. Thanks--that was what I was aiming for.

This is an issue we can use in the Congressional races and there's plenty of wisdom about it on DU.

[blondeatlast]

40. I like this idea--internationalize the unions.

If the corporations can do it, why not labor?

From a similar thread in GD; post by izzybeans:

It's a shame that labor unions do not internationalize. The true adversaries are employers vs. employees; not workers against workers. Employers exploiting nationalism and xenophobia to drive down wages; this is the issue. Work with "illegals" to increase wages regardless of the type of labor; don't push them out. Give them citizenship and you even the playing field. You'll never stop immigration between imaginary boundaries. Either that or build your wall and keep the "monguls" out.

Edit: HTML BIG goof. Link on edit.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=769211&mesg_id=776044

[blondeatlast]

41. Kick for a bit of positive thought on all sides... nt

[walldude]

44. Posted this on another thread:

Has anyone here ever had to take the citizenship test? Anyone care to enlighten people how long it takes to get through the red tape and paperwork you need to become a citizen of the U.S.? It takes years and years and cost money. We need an simpler immigration policy. I agree with benburch, anyone who seeks freedom and a better life for themselves should be allowed to enter the U.S. I just think they should be documented. They should be given a temporary work visa good until their citizenship is either granted or denied. Then we need to take a good look at how we can streamline the citizenship process. People act like illegals want to be illegal. They don't. If it were within their grasp to legally become a citizen they would jump on it. Let's put it within their grasp.

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me:
I lift my lamp beside the golden door

[blondeatlast]

46. Kick. nt

[blondeatlast]

49. One last time. nt