Maybe it's time for Americans who oppose illegal immigration ...

[RagingInMiami]

To take to the streets in protest.

To show the world that they are sick of having their wages surpressed. That they are sick of having to fund illegal immigrants who are in jail or in the hospital or are in school. That they are sick of having their voices ignored.

[earthside]

1. Not in the Streets ...

... Those folks will make their protest at the ballot box on November 7.

The misguided people who are advocating for essentially free, open borders -- if they keep a high-profile advocacy for such a position -- will keep the radical Repubicans in power in Congress.

[bluedog]

3. both parties are split on this issue n/t

[cantstandbush]

129. Where were these people during the anti-war protests? n/t

[Bridget Burke]

5. Which Democrats are advocating "essentially free, open borders"?

The protestors were marching against a Republican bill. And some of them ARE voters.

[bluedog]

9. I'm speaking about individual voters..

not so called leaders in Congress........

[earthside]

28. All of them ...

You ask: Which Democrats are advocating "essentially free, open borders"?

Well, by the time KKKarl Rove gets finished in time for the election this fall, they will be accusing ALL the Democrats of being for open borders, unlimited immigration and more patriotic to Mexico than the U.S.

Remember, Bush isn't on the ballot this year ... for radical Republicans seeking reelection to Congress, this will their wedge issue.

Believe me, I hope it doesn't work, but progressives are going to be tagged as anti-American worker if they don't get this issue straightened out.

FIRST, we must demand a repeal of NAFTA and an end to the transnational corporate trade deals that are causing this invasion of cheap labor into our country -- and is protecting the Mexican oligarchy from having to reform that country's unjust and unfair economy and social environment.

Then we can talk about immigration reform in this country.

[Marie26]

36. But KKKarl's in a bind

He really can't paint the Democrats as being pro-open borders when his own boss is advocating a guest worker program. Yes, Bush isn't up for re-election, but his stance makes anti-immigration people angry & alienated w/Republicans.

[earthside]

83. Of course he can.

Since when did being consistent mean anything to KKKarl Rove and company?

In fact, I think that is how they try and win both ways. Bush's position keeps the transnational corporations happy. But the Congressional radical Republicans can use immigration as a wedge, as a sign of independence from the unpopular Bush -- until after November 7.

But, just below the surface, the vast majority of radical Republicans want millions of more immigrants coming into this country to turn us into a low-wage, no benefits nation, like Mexico. And, they want to see the elite families that own Mexico stay in power, too.

Look for Bush to become pretty silent about immigration by summer, then he'll let the Congressional radical Republicans work this issue big time.

And, I'm telling you, that this a a big loser for Democrats and progressives in the fall if they don't define this issue as being about how bad NAFTA is, about jobs, about low-wages, about out-sourcing, etc. If this is about amnesty for "illegals" or "jobs that American won't do" ... then a lot of moderate Dems are going to lean towards the GOP.

All I'm saying is don't get all excited about millions of people in the streets -- giant demonstrations didn't stop the Iraq war -- and all those folks 'protesting' could also scare middle America ... and they are the ones that vote in mid-term elections. I think this is another Rovian wedge issue that could redefine the 2006 election away from what the Dems and progressives should be talking about towards an emotional issue that the radical Republicans are so very good at exploiting.

[FredScuttle]

92. you scare too easy

Rove is finished. His party is finished. The GOP can't exploit this issue like they have with gay marriage because half the party leadership supports it and the President himself wants a moderate policy solution. It's the insane Tancredos vs. the moderates. Dems should sit back and watch the party implode.

[earthside]

133. I only get scared ...

... when I hear DUers and progressives say things like "sit back and watch the party implode."

That is a prescription for defeat.

[RagingInMiami]

165. On this issue the dems should sit back and let them implode

[Beelzebud]

178. Umm hasn't that been the democratic strategy for 5 years now?

I think the dems should STOP sitting back, and take charge!

[RagingInMiami]

180. Well if they do it over the immigration issue, it will divide the party

Just as clearly as it has divided DU.

It think an issue that would solidify dems as well as bring in independents to the party is healthcare. Affordable healthcare for every man, woman and child if not government-sponsored universal healthcare.

Healthcare that benefits the people, not the pharmaceutical companies.

[Critters2]

141. No, the radical right--the paleo-cons, are for tightened restrictions

The neo-cons, the pro-business repugs, want loose immigration to provide cheap labor. The neo-cons understand that the Repugs will do their bidding, and will vote Repug. The paleo-cons, the lease bright wing of the party, will be all fired up by the pics of protesters flying Mexican flags...and will vote Repug. It's a win-win for Karl!

[radio4progressives]

93. It's impossible to defend a negative

I find it interesting that responsibility to defend a policy one did not make or support or helped to create is always attached to the group that didn't raise it as an issue in the first place...

the so called "border security" issue is an issue the xenophobes created, not liberals. So why is it incumbent upon us to defend it?

[RagingInMiami]

7. Protesting at the ballot box?

First let's get rid of the computer machines and have a real election.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

2. a growing percentage of illegals are my clients.

they buy houses, they pay taxes, they buy cars, they pay for services, they work hard, they don't break laws, they add to our culture and they pay for my services on time, without problems, in fact far more rapidly than citizens.

They are or have been, legal, illegal, students, out of status, transit, DEPENDING ON THE POLITICAL FLAVOR OF THE MONTH AND YEAR, not because they intentionally broke some law. Each change in immigration law badly impacts them, their kids, and their employers. It is a shame, a humanitarian shame, that people like they cannot live here without fear. By every (honest) measure in Illinois, migrants, immigrants and illegal immigrants ADD FAR MORE than they take away from society, and that includes, schooling, health care, government resources and police resources.

Racism, unwarranted bias, small-mindedness and a lack of true information, not to mention fear and stupidity are driving much of the anti-immigrant crap that is going on.

A caveat. my parents ran from hitler. Barely survived. Met in the states & got married very young. They did no speak the language, yet they have succeeded and thrived. How? Very hard work. Diligence. and more hard work. The Vast majority of today's immigrants are no different.

[thinkingwoman]

10. Care to back up your opinion with facts?

they buy houses, they pay taxes, they buy cars, they pay for services, they work hard, they don't break laws, they add to our culture and they pay for my services on time, without problems, in fact far more rapidly than citizens.

1. How do they pay taxes? If they're illegal, how do they pay taxes?

2. They don't break laws? Seriously? NONE of them? What about the immigration laws they ignored?

3. They work hard and buy things? Yes, I believe most of them do both of those things. So what? Why does that outweigh breaking the law to enter the country and stay here?

Racism, unwarranted bias, small-mindedness and a lack of true information, not to mention fear and stupidity are driving much of the anti-immigrant crap that is going on.

1. Why is it racist to expect everybody to abide by the same law?

2. Why are you perpetuating the talking point/myth that people who oppose illegal immigration are against all immigration? That simply is not true and anyone who isn't "small-minded" and lacking "true information" knows that.



edited to correct typo

[ChairmanAgnostic]

38. that's pretty insulting and ignorant of you.

Most, if not all have SSN numbers, even if they were issued without permit to work. They file yearly IRS reports. If they own companies, they file a company report and a personal report. AND they pay taxes. And they pay local and state taxes, retail and sales taxes, property taxes, and in Illinois, auto taxes, gas taxes, cigarette taxes and more.
They pay their medical bills, unless they have insurance, in which case they pay their insurance premium AND the deductable and co-pay AND the prescription costs.

How do I know this? BECAUSE I SEE THEIR BLOODY DOCUMENTS WHEN I MEET WITH THEM, THAT'S HOW.

Hey, it is now the law that Bush can turn loose the NSA on me because he signed some "legal addendum". It is now legal for the IRS to sell information about me. It is now legal to enter my home, search it, tap my phones, my computers and my cells, and then MAYBE get a warrant 3 days later.
It is Illegal to have my dying aunt smoke marijuana while she gets chemo and pukes her guts up, not to mention her lack of appetite and her inability to tolerate some of her meds, nor the refusal of the MD to up her pain meds because the Feds have threatened him before with prosecution for being too heavy handed with dying patient pain killers.

But, no, you manage to blithely state, "It's against the law." G I V E M E A F * * * I N G B R E A K.
So is speeding. Swearing in public in Ohio. Owning dildos in South Carolina. having abortions in South Dakota. And according to the FCC, seeing the sagging breast tissue of Mikey's sister.

I am talking about humanitarian issues, and you sound like a neocon supporting Bush's little Iraqi invasion "Because the UN said we could".
Yet, you claim that what I see each day with my own eyes is OPINION and you demand facts?

Here is one set of facts. Even if a client has applied to the INS properly, has his INS interview, is waiting for his green card, AND has been busting his butt supporting his crazy american wife, SHE gets a lover, cancels his INS application without notice to him, steals him blind and threatens to have him shot, arrested, tossed out of the country and banned from seeing his kids if he dares fight for any rights during his divorce, the poor guy is considered illegal. His kids can stay, but he has no more status here.

Yet according to your intended application of the laws and rules, he is here illegally. BULLSHIT. He is a victim of spousal abuse, he is a victim of ignorant laws, badly applied and he is a victim of racism applied to foreigners. You have absolutely no clue what happens every single day in this country, and how the law is truly an ass. You have no experience in seeing lives destroyed - by no fault of their own - people who suddenly find themselves out of status, ergo, illegal aliens. I do every single day.

[thinkingwoman]

48. You haven't explained

how they have SS#s if they are here illegally.

Stop yelling that I'm ignorant and EXPLAIN it to me.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

52. I don't think it is worth my time, not with your mind so made up.

But, one example.
Before Ashcroft destroyed student exchange programs, every student coming to this country was required to and did apply for and receive a SSN. That is not the only route, but one of several very common ones.

[thinkingwoman]

60. There, finally...

you bothered to explain something.

What are the other legal routes?

[radio4progressives]

107. through human resources of any company they work for

it's a special irs form. i forget the name of it right now - do a google search for it - to the irs website and research your questions there.

[thinkingwoman]

136. no, I'll wait

for antifaschits to provide the information. :evilgrin:

[Rockholm]

127. I agree with you Thinkingwoman.

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

51. The SSA does not issue SSN to anyone

without a proper visa or other official USCIS (f/k/a INS) proof of lawful residence. SSA has long since stopped issuing SS cards to just anyone.

So the fact that some people have SSNs does not make these numbers real or valid or in any way legitimate.

[thinkingwoman]

61. thank you for posting this

I'm actually trying to educate myself thoroughly on this issue and test the assumptions I have made to make sure they are factually accurate.

[radio4progressives]

100. Excellent Response, and I share your Frustration..

the level of blind ignorance and xenophobia among so called liberals is quite amazing...

what it does is verify a dictim that i had rejected (by assumption of what i expected liberal ideology to be about)which claims that many self identified liberals suffer from white supremacy as much as out spoken southern racists.

Back in the early 80's Klansman David Duke was the loudest spokesman on so called "border security" two decades before 9/11 and the so called 'war on terra-ists' ... playing on fear and innate racism, spewing forth every single one of these exact same so called concerns that are at the heart of the disinformation that is being propagandized today.

This issue has been on the decks for over a hundreds if not longer.. the issue at concern for all American workers are the OUTSOURCING of Manufacturing and Service jobs, vis a vis NAFTA etc., but let's not concern ourselves with the real issues, let's instead point the finger of blame and vicimize against our sisters and brothers who are not the policy makers, or the CEO's of these corporations, nor the writers of the treaties and trade agreements and policies that have put our own people in economic hardship, no thanks to our very own law makers in Washington and oh by the way, the President who pushed through Negroponte's brain child NAFTA into our economic and trade policy permanetly. (That would be Clinton)

[thinkingwoman]

144. so breaking the law is ok?

Then can I assume that you think Bush using the NSA to spy on Americans without warrants is just fine as well?

[radio4progressives]

151. talk about a disconnect..

the domestic spying is not just about a law, it's about the bill of rights. not all laws are just laws - laws based on humanitarian injustice should speak for itself.

there's miles and miles and miles of difference with a significant distinction ... but that's stating the obvious..

my frustration and disappointment is that stating the obvious should even be required.

[thinkingwoman]

158. It's also about the FISA

law, which is a law, not part of the bill of rights.

Speaking of disconnect...pot. kettle. black.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

152. Look, have you any sense of humanity in your soul? Or is it all gone?

If the law changes, if circumstances change, if weird things happen, and a person finds him/herself "out of status", does that have ANY impact on some miniscule, tiny, atom-sized, remnant of humanity, a shred of concern, an iota of interest in the facts and circumstances?

Do you care about people simply because they are human, or are you more concerned about them being illegal, dirty, grubby, non-english-speaking furrriners who smell?

[thinkingwoman]

157. ahh, more namecalling

Now I'm inhuman because I disagree with you. Great. Here's a thread you should check out, started by the person who founded DU:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x772085

[coalition_unwilling]

109. Thank you for some friggin sanity. God, I'm so sick of

the pathetic ignorance that parades under economic nationalism, especially b/c it falls into the trap of the corporate elite, that workers' enemies are other workers.

[thinkingwoman]

143. the corporate elite

are the ones supporting and benefitting from illegal immigration.

[coalition_unwilling]

183. Not just the corporate elite, though. Every upper middle-class

homeowner in Los Angeles gets cheap gardener, car washer, nanny, etc (pick your menial job) and cheap fruits and vegetables, thanks to undocumented workers.

[thinkingwoman]

185. upper middle class

didn't know that existed anymore. :evilgrin: Of course you did say the coast...here in the Midwest we pretty much have upper and working classes.

[coalition_unwilling]

187. Sorry for the jargon. I do think it is possible to distinguish

in Los Angeles between the middle class (who own small homes and where both spouses probably work outside the home) and the upper middle class (who own large homes and where one spouse is a doctor or corporate lawyer type). What is clear is that the undocumented workers in general are the "working class" in Los Angeles, cleaning up the various messes of the upper middle class.

[thinkingwoman]

190. no apology needed

you didn't use jargon really. We just live in different parts of the country.

Here in the midwest, the middle class has been pretty much wiped out with the outsourcing of the manufacturing base in the last decade. We're haves, have nots, and fakers here...that's it.

[coalition_unwilling]

194. Plenty of "fakers" here in L.A., also. They're also referred to

as "posers" (I think) -- Not to be confused with the noble tradition of the "fakir" :)

[thinkingwoman]

195. LOL nt

[Critters2]

145. Well, I don't know about your other details, but to transfer my

car registration from Iowa to Illnois, I had to have proof of citizenship. It was quite the little hassle. I went to the Secretary of State's place, was told I needed proof of citizenship to get both my license and license plates. I went home, got my passport, which had recently expired (I don leave the country much). Because it had expired, that wouldn't work. I asked how I DO go about proving my citizenship, and was told to get a birth certificate. I called the county clerk in my home town, and ws told that the state handled all copies of birth certificates. So, a call to Des Moines, and a few days' wait, and finally, I could go and get my license and plates.

How do non-citizens do this? I mean, legally?

[ChairmanAgnostic]

147. Those in Illinois who already have a license have no problem.

heck, you can do it online, unless you have too many speeding tix, alcohol stops or too many accidents.

[Critters2]

148. Not if you're getting a license for the first time, or transferring from

another state. I've had one ticket in my whole life, one accident in which the guy who hit me was ticketed (for driving the wrong way on a one way street), and have never had an alcohol stop.

You haven't answered my question. If I had to prove citizenship, how to non-citizens get licenses and tags?

[ChairmanAgnostic]

149. true. The largest block of people who cannot travel easily between states

are immigrants.

Don't forget about secondary (ahem) markets, and other less than savory steps. WHere there is a will, there is always a way.

[TygrBright]

47. They do indeed pay taxes... in fact they pay disproportionately

...to what citizens pay. Start with this: They are subject to withholding, illegal or not. Employers MUST withhold and pay to the government the taxes owed on their wages. Any illegal working for anyone but someone who slides paper bills to them under the table (and those are very much in the minority) DOES pay income taxes and FICA.

Second, because they cannot file income tax returns, they receive no deductions, no credits, and no refunds. They are taxed at the highest possible rates, much higher than citizens in comparable jobs. And the government gets to keep every cent.

Third, they are paying sales taxes, property taxes, excise taxes and fees at the same rate as citizens, and since they are disporportionately poor, like poor citizens, these taxes have a regressively high impact on their households.

BTW, I am NOT arguing for unrestricted immigration, etc. I merely want to set the facts straight.

Yes, some illegal/undocumented immigrants commit crimes, and crime is sometimes a motivation for illegal immigration-- drug cartels send people here to create nasty criminal networks. Those are a very small minority, both numerically and in terms of contribution to crime overall. The overwhelmingly vast majority of crime in America is committed by citizens.

Illegal/undocumented status may actually contribute to an anomalously low crime rate in this population, at least among the majority. They want to stay off the radar screen.

Finally, while I believe in and support the rule of law, it must be remembered that until recently, it was "against the law" for black individuals to marry white individuals in many places. Law for law's sake is not a good argument here; it puts what might otherwise be a persuasive, reasonable case on very shaky ground. There are many good reasons for supporting immigration reform and even for opposing amnesty programs, but "they broke the law to come here" isn't necessarily one of them. Sometimes people who break the law are doing what is morally right, both for themselves (and their families) and for society as a whole. To make "they broke the law" an element of an anti-amnesty case, it must be clarified why our current immigration laws are fair, just, equitably administered, workable, and producing societally valuable results.

Do you want to go there?

Make your case by all means-- I will probably agree with some aspects thereof. But do it on solid ground, not knee-jerk factoids and poorly-constructed straw men.

admonitorially,
Bright

[thinkingwoman]

55. As a former business owner

I could not withhold on anyone without a SS#.

As I asked the other poster...how do they have SS#s?

And as for this:

Finally, while I believe in and support the rule of law, it must be remembered that until recently, it was "against the law" for black individuals to marry white individuals in many places. Law for law's sake is not a good argument here; it puts what might otherwise be a persuasive, reasonable case on very shaky ground. There are many good reasons for supporting immigration reform and even for opposing amnesty programs, but "they broke the law to come here" isn't necessarily one of them. Sometimes people who break the law are doing what is morally right, both for themselves (and their families) and for society as a whole. To make "they broke the law" an element of an anti-amnesty case, it must be clarified why our current immigration laws are fair, just, equitably administered, workable, and producing societally valuable results.

Do you want to go there?

Yes I do "want to go there" because I do not for one minute buy the argument that restricting immigration to legal channels is racist.

If you want to show evidence that these laws are applied unfairly, I'll be happy to help fight for fair application of them. But unrestricted "come on in" immigration will destroy this country.

[TygrBright]

123. They make them up, of course. Or use "unknown."

You're too honest a business person. The chicken rendering plants and landscape nurseries don't worry nearly as much about the INS as they do about the IRS.

Every story you read (or don't, since they rarely make news in more than local papers) about a busload of undocumented workers being hauled out of the cannery, mentions the cannery owners getting fined a few bucks per person for hiring undocumented workers. Tsk-tsk. Then six months later the undocumented workers are right back on the line, making six or seven bucks an hour for work that used to pay union blue-collar workers $13-14 an hour. The miniscule fines assessed by the INS are written off as a cost of doing business, and given what the cannery owner is saving in labor costs, it's financially justified.

What you see much, much less often is the business that goes under because the IRS examined their payroll and figured out how much withholding WASN'T being done, and imposed killer fines, penalties, etc. It does happen occasionally, but the 'smart' slave labor exploiters know better. They know that the light slap on the wrist they'll get for having fake SSNs on file for their workers is a pittance compared to what they'll get socked with if they fail to withhold. After all, is it their fault if "the applicant gave them a fake SSN?"

As for the quality and justice of the immigration laws and their enforcement, just read the first-hand experiences of others in any of the thirty or forty threads currently running on this topic. Laws that favor white western europeans over brown central and south americans, laws that split up families and let one parent wait years in exile while the other parent files endless forms and applications, bureaucratic nightmares inflicted at the whim of arbitrary INS functionaries... the lunatic mishmash of immigration laws and the arbitrary chaos of their enforcement has been thoroughly documented by plenty of posters with hundreds of reputable links.

No, there's plenty to hate about the system-as-it-is, and plenty to consider in determining how it could work better, what our goals should be, and what level of cost we're willing to trade off for what level of benefit, but "they don't pay taxes and they break the law to come here" are the least compelling arguments in that discussion.

wearily,
Bright

[thinkingwoman]

134. I appreciate your post

and you taking the time to write it.

Thank you.

I can see your point about the don't pay taxes argument. I think, however, that the details provided in your post certainly refute other posts on this thread suggesting that all "illegal immigrants" are law abiding people.

If you're throwing around a fake SS#, you're breaking at least one law. If you got that number from somebody peddling numbers they've bought or stolen (ID theft), you're breaking another.

The pro-illegal immigrant camp need to drop the poor-little-illegals-that-never-did-nothing-wrong-to-nobody crap.

Oh, btw, a little anecdotal evidence that being white and european doesn't mean you get great treatment from the INS:

I personally know a family of 5 who came here legally, got their appropriate work visas, worked hard and yes, paid taxes with legally obtained ID numbers, enrolled 3 kids in schools and followed all rules and regs. INS couldn't manage to process their paperwork in time to keep them in the country. Several people had to petition our senators for help in expediting their case. They are from the Netherlands. Were they victims of racism? No. They were victims of a corrupt and crappy system.

[TygrBright]

160. dingdingding!! We have a winner!!!

>>They were victims of a corrupt and crappy system.<<

Exactly.

This is why saying "use the system we already have, enforce the laws that already exist, yaddayaddayadda" leaves you open to being taken apart. It IS a corrupt and crappy system, and the whole damn' system needs an overhaul from top to bottom, starting out with an HONEST discussion of what our national goal should be in permitting immigration at all. (BTW, I'm FOR permitting immigration, I'm just saying that the discussion needs to start out at that fundamental a level in order to work through all the crap and ensure that everyone gets properly heard, and be CLEAR and UNDERSTANDABLE to all the stakeholders-- which is all of us.)

I know who you're talking about when you say "The pro-illegal immigrant camp," but again, that kind of verbiage is likely to be self-defeating. It focuses on the human element, and whenever that comes up, the discussion gets derailed into the 'it's a question of fundamental human rights/decency, etc.' territory and you automatically become a "racist" (see below,) no matter how little you actually care about issues of race. It's also a bit like the folks on the "anti" side in the choice issue trying to put an opprobrious label on their opponents (because they think it's a successful rhetorical device) with "pro-abortion." That backfired on them, because it gave their opponents a chance to bring the fundamental question of "choice" front and center with the relabeling "pro-choice."

Yes, it is naive to assume that all immigrants are starry-eyed innocents huddling in today's version of the shadow of the Statue of Liberty, determined to make good and become upstanding Americans (although I hope you concede that such folks are definitely in the majority among the immigrant population, regardless of legal status.) And the demand that such an image be the "default" assumption for everyone taking part in this discussion renders their case vulnerable to everyone who's ever known a creepy undocumented Russian gangster, a scary undocumented Latino gang member, a cynically manipulative 'get-rich-quick' European, or any of a thousand other unpleasant people who are here for all the wrong reasons. Many, many people who have encountered such (and who DON'T know the hard-working home health aide who's struggling to support her children and make a real home in a community that needs her skills, or others of the millions of really wonderful would-be Americans) will just turn the discussion off when such demands conflict with their 'reality.'

As long as the discussion stays in the territory of the *people* (the living, breathing would-be fine American neighbors and the sleazy exploiters of American good will alike) it can never be fruitful. It will degenerate (it already is degenerating, heck) into one of those sterile, dead-end, stalemates like choice or guns or Israel, etc., and the real questions will never even be raised, much less answered. Not surprising, they're painful questions that are likely to expose a lot of ugliness even among basically good, decent, caring people with all the right intentions and motives. As long as one side can throw the dewy veil of Emma Lazarus over the discussion (the "give us your huddled masses," poet,) and the other side relies on a mishmash of easily-puncturable, sometimes contradictory, and often self-defeating arguments relating to "It's the Law! and "American jobs for Americans" and "Us versus Them" and "They take but don't give" etc., no resolution is possible and the discussion will simply loop. Everyone will get angrier and angrier, more peoples' positions will harden, and resolution will become even more impossible.

Sorry, Thinking, the last bits aren't really directed at you, somewhere along the line my "rant" button just got pushed. I'm gonna bow out of all of these threads now, since I've made as much useful contribution as I think I can make.

resignedly,
Bright

[thinkingwoman]

161. "...the dewy veil of Emma Lazarus..."

Ok, you completely got me with that one. I was a lit major in college and your turn of phrase sent me into a fit of giggles (which was welcome relief after a day of participating in these discussions)!

Thank you for that, and no problem whatsoever about your rant button getting pushed! You made many, many excellent points with your post.

I think I'm going to follow your lead, bow out of these threads myself, and find something else to occupy my time. Have a great night! :hi:

[underpants]

102. Totally in the dark here- is this true?

I have been wondering about this for a while

Do they get Social Security numbers? If so how?

Do they pay taxes - meaning is it withheld from their pay?

What percentage ARE paid under the table? If they are do they actually file and pay taxes?

Do they collect "welfare" (SSI/TANF)? If so how?

Are there taxes repaid to them if they leave? (I heard this one over the weekend)

Doing this to create a thread
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=773881&mesg_id=775696

[Bridget Burke]

168. Income Tax is not the only taxation.

Everyone pays sales tax. Especially in places like Texas, where we have no state income tax. Property tax increases ARE passed along to renters.

If you're only concerned with Income Tax, please say so.

[thinkingwoman]

173. I think income (and FICA taxes)...

are what most people think of first when confronted with the "but they pay taxes" strawman argument, and certainly when confronted with the "but they help save social security" strawman argument. That second one only comes about through income and FICA tax withholding--sales and rent don't cut it.

[Joanne98]

105. Right!!!!!!

[thinkingwoman]

4. I'm all for having our voices heard on the illegal immigration issue

I'm sick and tired of being accused of racism or being "anti-immigration" just because I want people to follow the law on their way into the country.

My ancestors are immigrants and native american. All were on this continent BEFORE it became the United States. I've had ancestors fight in every war/armed conflict except Vietnam and the Iraq wars. I SUPPORT immigration. But illegal immigration will kill this country.

Yes, the U.S. used to allow unlimited immigration--back when we needed people to settle and develop the continent. Times changed more than a century ago and unlimited immigration won't help us grow anymore. It will kill what's left of this country.

I'm tired of the strawman arguments that pretend that illegal immigrants (who are often paid in cash) help save social security, especially the ones that lump all immigrants (legal and illegal) together as one large group.

Immigrants are an important part of our nation's history and future.

Illegal immigrants are a security risk and a financial drain on an already strained economic and social safety net system.

The only people who benefit from illegal immigration are:

1. illegal immigrants
2. Big Business

I'm a little tired of selective law enforcement and policies designed to protect and promote Big Business. Aren't you?

Nobody above the law. That's all I'm asking.

[bluedog]

8. many of us are tired.......laws were made

they should have been enforced.thats all I say....really no sense of stating an opinion here as we are divided on this issue...thats what makes Democrats different.we each march to our own drum..I for one will voice my opinion at My Fl. Senators in Nov.........

[thinkingwoman]

12. Thanks...

I was starting to feel all alone on this, especially while yelling at the computer and tv screens.

There was a woman on Lou Dobbs last night that had me screeching. :eyes:

And then when I mistakenly watched the news report of the LA Mayor telling the crowd that there were "no illegals here" I had to turn of the tv and meditate my blood pressure back down into normal range.

[kurth]

13. Most immigration in the olden days was legal

Most immigration nowadays is ILLEGAL. All we need to do is enforce existing laws on the books.

------------------------------

"The Senate thinks as follows: In order to have fewer immigrants, we must admit more of them. In order to halt illegal immigration, we must legalize it. And in order to enforce the law, we must reward those who have broken it." - John O'Sullivan

[thinkingwoman]

18. Thank you for reiterating this

There's another point I should have brought up in my post:

Other countries control immigration as well.

I've looked...we (my family of 4) don't qualify to immigrate easily ANYWHERE we'd want to live. We're stuck here.

Now, that's ok with me, since this is where I want to live. But the idea that we're different than any other developed nation is head-in-the-sand stupid.

[TahitiNut]

17. Well said. The only reason the 'illegal immigrants' benefit ...

... is because the same exploitative plantation corporatists have successfully maintained the neo-colonial economic system and class structure in their countries (e.g. Mexico). The Big Business corporatists are playing both sides ... and profiting enormously from the labor of others.

There is no 'solution' to this issue that doesn't include dealing with five factors that create the problem. I've said this before but it (I believe) deserves repeating ... http://journals.democraticunderground.com/TahitiNut/110

[thinkingwoman]

Thanks for the link!

I'm adding you to my Blog log. :hi:

[Bridget Burke]

6. Nope. They would rather sit in front of their PC's...

And bitch.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[thinkingwoman]

14. That's so ridiculous

and blatantly unfair.

If you can't see the difference between legal and illegal...

I actually value people different than me. I welcome and enjoy diversity. But I expect equality under the law. Why don't you?

[Cleita]

19. Yes, I can see the difference. In Nazi Germany Jews were

made into illegal citizens, so the Nazis had a legal reason to round them up and put them in concentration camps. I don't see this as being any different.

[thinkingwoman]

23. As a Jew myself, I find that really offensive

When the U.S. starts stripping citizenship from people BORN HERE and rounding them up and putting them in camps, THEN that comparison will be valid.

Until then, you're just spouting stupidity, offensive stupidity at that.

[Cleita]

26. As a Jew you should be offended that this is happening here.

Once the bill is in place to deport these people, you will see them being rounded up and put into camps. Even George Will, a pasty faced white conservative who hates the immigration problem, computed the enormity of deporting all these people and came to the conclusion that it was an impossible task. Making these people criminals will end up in the scenario you just cast because they will be hunted down like animals and put in cages. Wait and see.

[thinkingwoman]

33. I can think for myself thank you.

I'll decide what to think "as a Jew" thankyousomuch.

As for "making these people criminals"...that's so much BS. These people made themselves criminals when they violated the law and entered the country illegally.

You're entitled to your opinion. But when your opinion is not based on fact and is accompanied by namecalling and melodrama, I'm entitled to disregard it.

I'll continue to base my opinion on fact and a fundamental commitment to fair treatment for all. I expect our laws to be enforced equally.

You can continue to base your opinions on whatever you want. Freedom is a wonderful thing.

[Cleita]

37. So by your reasoning, you are a criminal when you run a

red light and get a ticket for it. The criminality is being written into the law. This people will be called criminals because they went to work illegally.

I wish there was equal outrage for people who break the law by smoking where it's illegal, or even Marijuana.

[thinkingwoman]

58. Uh, yeah, actually...

Running a red light is against the law.

I don't do it.

I dont' speed either.

I'm 40 years old and I have never been pulled over by the police for ANYTHING. No pull over, no warning, and no ticket. Ever.

Next question?

[Cleita]

63. Me neither and I'm sixty six.

However, I can't say I haven't gotten my share of parking tickets and that's breaking the law too. It must be nice to be up there on that pedestal, so pure and law abiding. I guess I can't reason with a perfect person.

[thinkingwoman]

80. I never said I was perfect

But I do find abiding by the law rather easy to accomplish.

I'm not putting myself on a pedestal, and I find it funny that you would suggest such a thing about somebody you basically called a nazi earlier today.

[countryjake]

132. Actually, the original Sensenbrenner Immigration bill...

did deny citizenship to children born in the United States to illegal immigrants. We all have to worry when something of that magnitude is actually being considered as a law!

[thinkingwoman]

159. I'm always concerned

when Congress tries to pass unconsitutional laws. However, that concern doesn't translate to amnesty for 10 million people who came here illegally.


Edited to remove extra verb.

[coalition_unwilling]

112. Have you forgotten Jose Padilla and John Walker Lindh? (n/t)

[thinkingwoman]

135. No, have you forgotten the topic at hand?

Padilla and Lindh have zero to do with the illegal immigration issue being discussed on this thread.

And that was a pretty lame attempt to muddy the water, btw.

[coalition_unwilling]

184. Hmm, I thought I was responding to the "Nazi's rounding up Jews"

theme expressed earlier.

If you don't see a connection between Padilla and Lindh (both pretty clearly political prisoners\detainees) being rounded up and\or tortured because of their religious beliefs (in Lindh's case certainly, possibly in Padilla's case) and Jewish citizens of Germany being rounded up, tortured and killed based on their religious beliefs, then no number of postings by me is going to convince you.

[thinkingwoman]

186. that's a stretch

at best.

If you think 2 people with actual bad acts compares to 6 million for religious beliefs alone, no number of postings by me is going to convince you.


P.S. for the knee-jerk reactionaries: I don't approve of torture or the way the padilla or lindh cases were handled, but they simply do not compare to nazi germany.

[coalition_unwilling]

188. Yes, right now it's a question of degree, I'd agree.

But also consider that, after 9/11, thousands of Muslim immigrants were "rounded up" and detained on petty visa violations, strictly on the basis of their ethnicity and\or religious beliefs. Many of those Muslim detainees were brutally treated by yahoos in the prison-industrial complex, as the U.S. Dept. of Justice's own Inspector General documented in ample detail.

Let's talk about the supposed "bad acts." Exactly what bad act did John Walker Lindh commit? He took up arms for the Taliban against the Northern Alliance, i.e., an Afghan civil war, and not against the United States. After his detention, he was denied an attorney, tortured and Ashcroft's DOJ had to drop all the charges against him because they didn't want the massive violations of his civil rights to come out in a criminal trial. Had it happened two years later, they probably would have dropped ALL CHARGES, rather than allowing their fascistic mis-conduct to come to light.

As for Padilla, well, there still hasn't been a trial, has there? Exactly what "bad act" has Padilla been convicted of? Ashcroft said he planned to detonate a "dirty bomb" but, when they were finally forced to shit or get off the pot due to judicial oversight, they dropped all those allegations.

[thinkingwoman]

191. but this is not the topic at hand

and doesn't relate one iota to the illegal immigration discussion. That's what I was pointing out with my post.

I'm not going to debate padilla in a thread about illegal immigration. It's just not relevant.

[coalition_unwilling]

193. But it is relevant to an earlier post about "Nazis rounding up Jews"

regardless of whether you choose to admit it.

[thinkingwoman]

196. No it isn't

Just because you say it is doesn't make it so.

[Lars39]

24. The similarities are there, aren't they?

Amazing how many people don't recognize the same tactics being used.
I've just started Shirer's Berlin Diary. It'll probably add to my insomnia.

[Cleita]

27. Yes and criminalizing these people will lead to the same abuses.

eom

[Rockholm]

130. Equality under the law. Excellent.

As a gay man married to my partner in Massachusetts, I am personally pissed about this whole immigration issue. The right wing WANTS these illegals here. A vast majority of them are social conservatives. They are against abortion, equal rights for gays, etc. It angers and upsets the hell out of me that these illegals are breaking the law and one day could have more rights than me. My family has been in this country since before there WAS a country here.
During the Constitutional Conventions here in Boston when the legislature was debating same sex marriage, I was surrounded by non-English speaking religious fanatics who were fighting against my equal rights. That pretty much did it for me. If it were up to me, I hate to say it, but I would gladly ship them either back to where they came from or at the very least, out of Massachusetts. Call me what you will, but that is how I feel. Right or wrong in others opinions, that is how I feel.
I know that they work very hard. I know that many of them are in industries or services that I and many other probably would not want to do. I know that they are here trying to make a better life for themselves and their families. I WANT them to succeed. HOWEVER....they need to follow the law.

[thinkingwoman]

142. I truly believe

that we will see equal rights for gays and lesbians within our lifetime. You should be able to enjoy all the legal benefits that my husband and I enjoy, in ALL 50 STATES. Your commitments are no different than ours and I want you to know that each vote I cast in any election is cast with equality in mind. I won't vote for anyone who doesn't support it, even if they have a D after their name.

I just wanted you to know that there is at least one middle aged white woman from the midwest who hears you and votes accordingly.

[Rockholm]

156. Thank you for your kind reply.

[bluedog]

16. we are just stating our opinions..........as you are....

our voices will be heard in Nov at the elections......as yours will........point taken

[Cleita]

21. You really haven't addressed my point and question so I will

rephrase it. If these people became legal, would you still object?

[MadHound]

25. Puhleeeze, peddle your broadbrush BS somewhere else

If a person is here legally, I don't care if where they're from or what the color of their skin is. In fact, personally I'm hoping for a greater increase in Latino immigrants. Why, because I'm looking into the future and growing produce, like mouse melons, that are an intigral ingredient in the cuisine south of the border. More immigrants means more sales which means more money for me.

But illegal immigration I oppose. I know too many carpenters and other folks who were put on the unemployment line because the company that they worked for figured that their profits would go up by hiring illegals whom they could pay slave wages.

Does that mean that I want to oppress the illegals? No, I want to punish the companies vigorously, and start forcing them to pay decent wages to their employees. If somebody wants to go through the immigration process and come up from Mexico and get that well paying job legally, great. But don't be coming up illegally and undercut the wages of a citizen here in the states.

Due to my mixed blood, I'm an all American mutt, I can't afford to have such prejudices that you describe, and I don't think that your broad brush attacks apply to the vast majority of people on this board. Just because somebody disagrees with you over this issue doesn't make them a racist, and trying to paint people as such is insulting and poor form. Why not go out and find real answers to my concerns rather than taking the easy way out and dismissing your opponents as racist.

[Cleita]

39. Speaking of broad brushes, you assume that all those

Hispanic carpenters are illegal. It's the law that contractors have to examine the documents of all foreign worker. Once contractors were required to hire union labor, but that law has changed. If a contractor wants to pay minimum wage it's his perogative.

If a contractor deliberately hires illegal carpenters, and pays them less than minimum wage then he is as much in violation of the law as the person he hired, yet I am not seeing equal outrage about this.

So instead of blaming the victim, blame the contractor who hires illegals and those who changed the law because they are deliberately trying to bust the unions.

[MadHound]

67. Ass u me, that is what you are doing

You are assuming that I don't know where of I speak, and you know what they assuming does(hint, see the subject line).

No, I know, quite well and first hand that those carpenters are illegals. Being as that I speak to both them and the foremen, I know my facts friend. Don't ass u me, OK.

And I suppose you missed the part where I stated in my post "No, I want to punish the companies vigorously, and start forcing them to pay decent wages to their employees." Perhaps you should read for comprehension, not speed:shrug:

Oh, and again stop with the implicit suggestion that anybody who doesn't agree with you on this issue is a racist, OK. It is insulting, degrading, and quite frankly makes you look like an ass. There are better ways to argue your POV without having to make a fool out of yourself and insulting people.

[Cleita]

Then maybe you should report your foreman to the law for

hiring illegals. It isn't going to stop until it hurts those who are doing this. I never called you a racist or anyone else. Also, as a hispanic here legally from the day I stepped foot on America I find these posts insulting and degrading to me.

[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cleita]

96. And I found many of the posts on this thread before this one

insulting to me and everyone else who has Hispanic relatives and ancestors. Everyone except native Americans have an immigrant for an ancestor and now you are picking on my ethnicity blaming them for lowering your wages when the fault is yours.

[MadHound]

113. Gee, have you considered that the reason for that

Is that you waltzed in here and declared that everybody who disagreed with your point of view to be a racist? Not the best way to win friends and influence people. And even then, looking at the responses to your posting of this wisdom, I see absolutely no broad brush attacks on Hispanics, just attacks on your outrageous comments. Stop trying to play the pity card here, OK, it isn't going to work.

And again, read my posts for comprehension. I'm not picking on your ethnicity, nor any immigrants for lowering wages, I'm complaining about the corporate practices. Big difference. Besides, until a couple of posts ago, I didn't even know your ethnicity, so how could I even pick on it:shrug:

Face it friend, you've been caught out making broad brush attacks on the entire community here, and now you are being called on your shenanigans. Trying the pity ploy is ineffective and illegit, so I suggest that you drop that also.

Oh, and just for your information, in case you didn't catch it the first time upthread, I'm of mixed ancestory, including Native American and Hispanic. Gee, if I was being insulting and racist as you claim, why would I dishonor my heritage that way?

If you wish to discuss this like a couple of rational human beings, fine. But if your point is to sow division and hate here, well, CYA

[foreverdem]

114. How is that?

Yes, everyone on this board with the exception of Native Americans has an immigrant for an ancestor, but many of those ancestors came here legally.

How is it the poster's fault that corporations hire illegals at low wages and the illegals take the jobs?

[foreverdem]

29. Not true

I can't speak for all, but most that are opposed to illegal immigration feel that way because it is just that, illegal. Illegals undercut wages for all of us and expect to be rewarded with citizenship for breaking the law. How fair is it to jump in front of all those waiting who have gone through the legal channels to gain entry into this country?

So everyone who is here illegally should be allowed to stay? Does that include those with criminal records that are fleeing the law in their native countries? How do we go about finding that out if we just grant them all citizenship? I'm not being snarky on this point, what do we do about those with criminal records? Or those who pose a security threat?

[Cleita]

46. If they come in legally, they have to follow a process, which also

includes a background check for crimes. You have a better chance of criminals entering illegally, if they don't go through a screening process first.

[foreverdem]

62. That's my point

If we keep granting amnesty or citizenship to those who are here illegally, how do we know exactly who is here and why?

[Cleita]

64. That isn't what happens.

These people, who are granted amnesty, must go through the screening process like any other alien applying for a green card. Sometimes a criminal record in their country is overlooked because of the nature of the charge.

I helped a friend of mine from, Belfast, Northern Ireland and she had to go through this. She had an arrest record for being in the middle of a mob throwing rocks at British soldiers during the troubles although she says she wasn't throwing rocks she just happened to be walking in the street when the riot broke out.

This is what got her here to begin with. After getting out of jail she was so traumatized that came over here on a visitors visa and stayed. The INS overlooked her arrest because of the political nature of it and because she had been a model resident in those years she was here illegally.

[foreverdem]

72. Thanks for the explanation...

but I still don't think it's right for people breaking the law to get preference over those who have gone through legal channels to come here. Why have laws at all if they are not going to be followed?

[Cleita]

75. If you look at the last two amnesties, the reason they were

granted, was because the employers and ranchers who hired these people were the ones to raise their concern. They knew their businesses and the general economy would collapse, if all these workers were deported. Being nice to the illegals had nothing to do with it.

[foreverdem]

82. Nice or not nice doesn't matter

What matters is that breaking the law and driving down wages for everyone serves no one. We have immigration laws for a reason.

[CanonRay]

34. That's bullshit!

The fact is, if they were here legally, they could demand fair wages, get the employers to pay into Worker's Comp, join unions, and generally be better off than as exploited illegals. I WOULD be supportive if they were here legally, as a matter of fact. Cut the racist bullshit, because that a load of crap.

[Marie26]

40. So would you support amnesty for illegal aliens?

That would make them legal so that they could demand fair wages, join unions & stop corporate exploitation. And if not, why not?

[Cleita]

44. I think they need to loosen the immigration restrictions.

Right now getting a residence visa to work or a green card is a byzantine process. I think they need to allow these workers in for six months on a worker visitor's visa. They do this for foreign students and the students are allowed to work. If in that six months they have found a permanent job, have the payroll stubs to prove it, and haven't gotten in trouble with the law, then they should get permanent residence status.

What is really needed is closed union shops in the trades. If you aren't a union member you don't work. I think this should have been Sensenbrenner's bill. Closed shops give workers bargaining power as a group.

But this issue isn't about a sensible solution. It's another wedge issue like abortion during an election year. The right wing appeal to peoples' prejudices to outrage them about the Democrats so they can win elections.

[CanonRay]

170. NOT amesty, under any circumstances, but

I would support a guest worker program IF they left and re-entered legally. We could give 1st preference to those here longest, or with families born here. Later arrivals go to the bottom of the list. But this won't work unless we seal the border first.

[Marie26]

174. Guest workers

IMO, offering amnesty & legal residence opportunities would go a long way towards sealing the border. But I agree that we really need to strength security & enforecement at the borders themselves. And we really need stronger penalties against corporations that employ illegal labor. I hestitate about a guest worker program, because it seems to create a permanent underclass w/o a chance of establishing roots or prosperity. It seems like guest workers would be almost as easy to exploit as illegals - there's a reason Bush likes this proposal.

[Cleita]

42. When was the last time you could demand fair wages without

belonging to a union? I never could. I was told they could get someone else who would be delighted to have my job for the same wages. If the law allows the employer to pay you what he wants to above miminum wage, that's his perogative. He calls the shots not you.

Having worked as a bookkeeper in the restaurant business and these businesses hire Hispanics in their kitchens, I know that they get what the law lets them get in wages, usually minimum wage and they pay taxes. It's deducted from their wages.

If you want to level the playing field unions should try to enroll these illegals so that they make the same as Americans.

[justice1]

43. The race card is so tiresome...by the way my family is Hispanic

The U.S. allows more legal immigrants into the U.S. than the rest of the world combined. That isn't the problem, illegal immigration is.

[Cleita]

50. Oh, so I guess your family got in so shut the door behind you?

Immigration wouldn't be illegal if it's made legal. Now that's not hard? See my post #44.

[mondo joe]

81. Murder wouldn't be illegal if it were made legal either.

You fail to address the need for an immigration policy.

[Cleita]

98. Because what we have isn't working, but the solutions proposed

have also proved not to work in other countries and other times.

Building a wall will keep people in as well as out. Have you thought of that? Remember the iron curtain.

Criminalizing poor people leads to abuse of those people. Look at our own history with blacks. If you want to go further back there is the Nazis.

A guest worker program does nothing to help get better wages and will continue to lower them.

[mondo joe]

119. Not working? You mean laws against murder or immigration

outside the legal process?

Number 1, I don't advocate building a wall, but your point about it keeping people "in" is stupid.

Number 2, no one has suggesting criminalizing people for being poor, but for breaking legitimate laws.

Number 3, I don't support guest worker satus either.

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

57. That's ridiculous. I am a legal immigrant and I work

with legal immigrants of all colors and nationalities everyday. These are people I am proud to work with. However, I am not fond of people who circumvent the same laws that are there for everyone from every corner of the world (except for Cubans, but that's another story) to get here. Everyone tries to make a better life for him/herself; but some do it legally.

[Cleita]

66. That's nice and so wholesome of them to obey the law because

they got lucky in the immigration lottery. We need to find another way of allowing these immigrants to enter that isn't as baroque as the present system. This is what makes those left behind more desparate and they will come in here anyway in spite of this. Look at my suggestion on my post #44.

[mondo joe]

71. No, we don't need to. We are not obliged to give entry to

every single person who wants to immigrate to the United States.

[Cleita]

76. I think we should make an exception for our neighbors,

both Canada and Mexico, not the whole world.

[mondo joe]

78. Everyone is our neighbor.

And I think immigration policy should be determined by a lot of things more important than proximity.

But then again, I believe we should HAVE immigration policy.

[Cleita]

99. I think we need to raise the quota of immigrants allowed in

from Canada and Mexico as good neighbors. Something that no one talks about is that the Canadian border is as leaky as the Mexican border when it comes to illegal immigration. It's just that those immigrants blend into our population better and go unnoticed

[mondo joe]

121. Really? Can you provide some data to back that up?

It's an important issue and I'd be glad to have more data!

[Cleita]

155. I don't know if any number cruncher has been inspired to to a

study on it, however, I worked for a decade as a bartender in an Irish pub in L. A.. It was a gathering place for immigrants from the British Isles, Australia, New Zealand, Canada and various Scandanavian countries. About 80% of the Brit commonwealth immigrants entered the country illegally, through Canada and all of the Scandanavians, women who were brought here to work as domestics, were undocumented. Nobody made a secret of it either.

No one called La Migra. Except there was one Aussie who was picked up and deported. He was sleeping with some American's wife. We think the husband, a rich and powerful man, sent the INS after him. There was not a Green card among them. Thirty years later, many of them are still here, having obtained legality through marriage or amnesties.

If I can find a study I will forward it to you.

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

84. Who said anything about the lottery?

I'm talking about people from all corners of the world, including Mexico, who come here legally by following the laws of the U.S. on immigration. They come here because of several reasons: They may have special or unique skills, they may be extraordinary artists/scientists/athletes, they may be performers, they may be married to a U.S. citizen, they may be working for a multinational company in the U.S.

We don't deal with lottery winners at our firm.

[Cleita]

90. You don't know how this works do you?

The INS allows only an alloted number of people from each country in. They are selected by lottery from each area. The rest have to try again. Some people have grown old trying.

Yes there are special visas for special people. But even as performers or scientists, whatever they are, they can only come in for a certain length of time and limited as to what they can work at while here. Usually, though one of these visas can eventually turn into permanent residence status.

Our present governor in California came in on one of those visas for a muscleman promotion, but he also stayed and started earned money illegally from another job that put him in violation of the law, which clever immigration attorneys managed to put right and then he could get his permanent visa. So our governor was once an illegal alien who broke the law. Funny I don't see him in jail, nor being deported for breaking the law.

[DrGonzoLives]

70. I have a better idea

How about you learn to make an argument without calling people racists?

Nah, that would be too hard.

[Cleita]

85. I didn't call everyone racist.

I pointed out a truth that the issue really isn't about
people being here illegally, taking jobs and lowering wages. I asked a question, if these people were here illegally would this make a difference? I pointed out that I didn't think it would. You see I have lived through two amnesties.

Still these people are not accepted by all Americans even though they are legal. Then they start picking on the fact that people that don't speak English shouldn't have jobs or get government benefits. I've been through this before. So their being here legally really doesn't change anything for many Americans, not all but many.

I suppose pointing out the raw truth is very uncomfortable to many.

[mondo joe]

88. You didn't point out a raw truth. You made an accusation and

pointed out an unsubstantiated opinion.

[DrGonzoLives]

91. Let's look at what you said

"I'm pretty sure you would find something else to blame on these people. The truth is you don't like people who are different from you."

Oh, I'm sorry, you didn't say racist. Nice try. You managed to paint everyone here who disagrees with opening up the border some kind of xenophobic asshole. Instead of actually making your argument, you just resort to the tired old standby of racism.

The "raw truth" is that companies are all too happy to hire these people at well-below-average wages, which affects everyone. The "raw truth" is that this is a problem, and simply saying, as you do, that we should magically make everything a closed shop is as empty a plan as building a giant wall to keep everyone out.

Believe it or not, a liberal and a conservative can have the same general view on an issue without agreeing on why they come to that conclusion. It's hard, I know, but using your brain a little bit every now and then does help.

[Cleita]

94. Let's really examine what the truth is.

The truth is that this is a wedge issue, in an election year, like abortion. The Republicans are wallowing in it. As a matter-of-fact the abortion issue is barely mentioned these days. I think SD soured even right wingers on that.

They know they are appealing to your prejudices, just as they appeal to sexism in the abortion issue. It seems to be working very well, even right here at DU. I for one am not going to waste anymore time getting anyone here to look at this issue from a different angle anymore. So be it. Enjoy Jeb Bush as your next president. I for one hope I'm not alive then.

[mondo joe]

95. You again accuse those who disagree with you of doing so because

of PREJUDICE.

And you have the nerve to call it "truth".

How appalling.

[Cleita]

101. Okay, then what would you call it. Enlighten me.

What are the GOP appealing to you with this issue? What is the excuse d'jour. It seems to change everytime it comes up.

[mondo joe]

120. THe GOP isn't appealing to me. I believe in law and due process.

I believe no nation can take in an unlimited number of immigrants. I believe there are various issues of national interest at play.

It's not an "excuse" and it's extremely rude of you to make that accusation.

[DrGonzoLives]

97. Once again

where does this "prejudice" bullshit come from?

I am concerned about the exploitation of foreigners and the depression of wages and the busting of unions. Must mean I'm a racist Republican now, eh?

Thank you for deciding to drop it. Your idiocy was getting tiring anyway.

[Gormy Cuss]

15. Be careful what you wish for.

With the current trends of offshoring and outsourcing to avoid paying benefits and the inflated real estate markets go bust, you just might see it happen. People who see their lives going into the toilet won't see corporate fat asses on the street, they'll see Latinos who might or might not be illegal immigrants. Just who do you think will become the focus of their anger?

[Marie26]

41. Why are people like this? nt

[Gormy Cuss]

45. That I don't know.

But I was remembering the attacks and even murders of Sikhs in the U. S. after 9/11 because ill-informed angry fools thought they were Arabs. Frightened, frustrated, angry people aren't always rational.

[Marie26]

176. That's true

Sorry, my question was more of an existential wail than something that you can answer. I just realized that you are probably right.

[Johonny]

20. I'm not sure what to think on the subject.

Basically in the most important election year in many many years. I sure the hell hope voters do not vote single issue on this type of subject matter. Do I believe immigration is a top issue in this country at this point in time... hell no.

[Avalux]

22. I am sick of being told what to think about illegal immigration

Why is it that so many can overlook that a law is being broken? Why is breaking this law OK; but it's not OK for other laws to be broken, such as spying on Americans?

Cesar Chavez was against illegal immigration for the same reasons I am. It exploits the immigrant; they are taken advantage of by employers and given lower wages because they have no rights, no recourse. It's not good economics and it's not good for society as a whole.

I am against illegal immigration and if some don't like it, I don't care.

[sandnsea]

30. I'm against labor exploitation

I don't know why people can't focus on the issue. A document doesn't guarantee that an immigrant will know their rights or know how to report abuses. This is a labor exploitation issue and bringing immigrants out from the shadows will help stop that problem which will ultimately help all workers.

[TahitiNut]

54. Hear! Hear!

:thumbsup:

[DrGonzoLives]

73. Thank you

You are 100% correct; not that that will stop the race-baiters from screaming OMG RACISM, but it helps to hear someone not be a total hypocrite.

[hunter]

110. Yes, the foundation of the problem is worker exploitation.

Big business likes to have disposable workers.

Can't work, injured on the job, can't keep your mouth shut about your rights as a worker? Go home to Mexico.

But like it or not, there is a large component of racism to this problem. Those huge crowds of people in Los Angeles scare white middle America because they are brown, and they are organized, while crowds of mostly white anti-war protesters were largely ignored.

I have no doubt that half a million mostly black protestors would generate a similar level of alarm.

[Cobalt Violet]

74. The same pro-worker slavery Democrates will be wondering AFTER...

the election what can be done to reach out to get the blue collar wokers' votes. Amazing.

[Faux pas]

31. What is it that people don't get about the word ILLEGAL?

I worked for the California prison system for twelve years. At least half of the Mexican inmates were in this country illegally. They were all deported and re-deported every time they were released on parole. But, that was AFTER the county tax payers paid to house them in jail and AFTER the state taxpayers housed them in prison. There was one illegal immigrant, or alien, whatever you choose to call him, who had over 3 MILLION dollars of FREE heart surgeries and after care at USC medical center. All on the taxpayers dime. I'm pretty sure that no LEGAL citizen could get all the medical care for free. What's f-ing wrong with this picture????

[kurth]

32. One out of five in federal prisons are illegal aliens

- 2004 Center for Immigration Studies report.

[Cleita]

59. That's because they can't afford the fancy lawyers other

can who commit crimes. In the south most of the prisoners are black for the same reason. So you have more of a criminal element in the white population walking among you than the minorities do. Whites who commit white collar crimes are more likely to get off with a fine than go to jail. There's a whole cabal of them running our federal government in Washington today

[Bridget Burke]

79. Find a better source than the Center for Immigration Studies.

CIS describes itself as “independent” and “nonpartisan,” but its studies, reports, and media releases consistently support its restrictionist agenda and works closely on Capitol Hill with Republican Party immigration restrictionists. However, CIS has achieved credibility with the media and in think tank circles because of its lack of the kind of strident anti-immigrant rhetoric associated with many restrictionist groups, its willingness to invite pro-immigrant voices to its forums, and the scholarly format of its reports.

http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/1452

The CIS wants to restrict ALL immigration.

[kurth]

108. 2003 Federal Bureau of Prisons figure: more than 29 percent

Almost ONE THIRD. Look it up.

[Joanne98]

111. Let's build private prisons in Mexico. It will create guard jobs.

[Faux pas]

163. It never made sense to me to house and feed and care for

felons who should just be sent home. Unless they've committed murder, arrest them and put them on the first bus south.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

118. damned straight. they should have let him die. That'll show them illegals!

Teach a lesson they won't forget. SUFFER AND DIE, ILLEGALS! Because we WANT YOU TO. Hey! Maybe we should torture them on the way out, huh? Besides, our military needs the practice for when they take over the continental US.

[Faux pas]

164. What an ass. I was making the point that if illegals, felons no

less, can get millions of dollars in free medical care, why shouldn't legal citizens? You'd make a great freeper, twisting peoples statements to fit your own agenda.

[Marie26]

35. Nah, they'd rather whine.

You don't have to leave your chair for that.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

49. I'm an American. I don't oppose "illegal" immigration.

But, I'm for open borders and an end to nationalism and racism.

[Cleita]

53. I think there are many of us of the same mind and I think

we are in the majority so it never fails to amaze me that the minority gets the laws in their favor.

[EFerrari]

65. We need to work harder on our elections systems, Cleita.

We'll get it done.

:toast:

[Cleita]

68. Thanks sfexpat200. For awhile I felt like I had stepped onto

Republican planet.

[EFerrari]

77. I think I have to stay out of this melee because it's pretty

upsetting to read this.

What is the right spelling for "no te sofoques por pequenezes"

I can't spell in two languages.

:hug:

[Cleita]

103. Me either. My Spanish is mainly verbal.

Time to bail out, but I'm really disgusted.

[Bridget Burke]

115. The National Border is not one of mankind's better inventions.

We've got giant corporations ignoring as many borders as they can. Why not the workers?

[DanCa]

56. Take it out on the chimp

Remember outsourcing is costing us jobs to begin with and the immigration meltdown happened on his watch. Like so many other issues. He's so busy kissing his bases tuckus that he can't keep his eye on the big picture.

[mondo joe]

69. I'll just take my opposition to the ballot, thanks.

:-)

[Bridget Burke]

116. Another Republican is born.

Or is that Born Again?

[mondo joe]

122. What a stupid thing to say.

Nothing Republican about it.

[Bridget Burke]

125. Sorry if I was mistaken.

Somehow I got the impression that you supported the Republican immigration plans....

[mondo joe]

126. I suggest you stop imagining things.

I am against illegal immigration - that's hardly a Republican position.

I believe in law and due process. I believe in responsibly managing our borders and foreign relations.

Are those now Republican values?

[Bridget Burke]

131. The protesters were against the latest Republican proposal....

And too many "Democrats" here were appalled that anyone dare complain.

[mondo joe]

138. The thread subject line is "Maybe it's time for Americans who..."

...oppose illegal immigration ... to take to the streets in protest."

I responded to that subject. I DO oppose illegal immigration.

The subject line wasn't "Those who supoprt the Republican proposal", which I don't.

[Bridget Burke]

167. You said that you would express yourself by voting....

Not by "taking to the streets." Does that mean voting for Democratic candidates? Is that newsworthy at DU?

[mondo joe]

169. I meant by voting in ways that reflect my positions. That includes

primaries - and in my state, initiatives.

Or did you think all Democratic candidates are the same?

[jeffrey_X]

86. It makes you wonder what it would be like if....

Mexico and Europe traded locations. Instead of hispanics coming across the border it as europeans who were crossing the border illegally.

Speaking of which...where is the outcry about illegal european immigrants? I know there are thousands upon thousands here in Chicago.

Any idea what percent of illegals are hispanic verus european???

[mondo joe]

87. I suspect the outcry has to do with the easy access for illegal

entry through Mexico.

[jeffrey_X]

153. That's why I made the point about

geography and Mexico and Europe swapping locations. (hypothetically)

I'm curious if we'd have the same situation if another demographic was crossing the border instead of hispanics.

[mondo joe]

162. If everything were the same but the ethnicity, I think most of us would

have the same reaction.

[countryjake]

137. It used to be, I think, about 2.5 million non-Hispanic ...

that's off the top of my head and it's data from last year, so don't take my word for it.

[Name removed]

104. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bridget Burke]

117. But--surely racism & xenophobia have nothing to do with it!

What happened to your Solidarity with the American Worker?

[countryjake]

150. Why?

[coalition_unwilling]

106. They won't get in the streets b/c they're too comfortable in their

RVs and lawn chairs with tacky American flags and coolers of beer nearby.

Anti-illegal immigration is just a fancy word for the new racism.

First, the Repukes tried to get us to hate blacks, then they tried to get us to hate gays, now they're trying to get us to hate browns. If you fall for it and fail to realize who the real enemy is -- hint: it isn't Iraqis or Mexicans -- then I pity you.

[slide to the left]

124. For the record

I am of western european decent, english to be exact.

I find so much of this offensive! I live in Texas where the economy is carried on the back of illegal workers. Every house, every building, every road is built by Latinos. This state is 30+% Latino. Without them there would be no roads, no schools, no houses, no restraunts. I would have no coffee in the morning and my car would not run. Texas was part of Mexico before it was part of the US. We celebrate cinco de mayo (everyone) and a lot of us "Americans" speak some spanish- you just have to learn it.

If we are going to use the straw man arguement that everyone was an immigrant at one point, it would be good to throw in that a lot of the southwest was once Mexico.

Not that I advocate free borders, I do NOT. But those who are here should be able to stay. Texas would go to shit if we went a day without illegal workers.

Also, it was pouring rain one day, and the only car that stopped to help me change my flat tire was a truck load of Latino construction workers.

[Bridget Burke]

128. I've lived in Texas most of my life....

I know that immigration could be handled better. But it seems that some people from the more Northern states are more fearful of Mexicans than we are down here.

[thinkingwoman]

140. why do you think all latinos in Texas are there illegally?

What evidence do you have that the latinos who build those houses and drive that economy are all illegals?

There is a difference between legal and illegal immigration. Willfully ignoring it won't make it go away.

[slide to the left]

171. well

I know alot of them are. I know that the guys who work for the landscaping company that does my parent's house are paid in cash. I know that the guys that remodled our house were paid in cash and I know that a family friend's nanny was paid in cash. How else would you explain it?

[thinkingwoman]

172. Hey, I guess those illegals that you know

aren't paying taxes then. ;-)

Seriously, I'm not trying to pick on you. But I think it is important in this volatile debate to not make sweeping generalities and lump people together. Not all hispanics/latinos are illegals--not by a long shot. And certainly not all illegals are paying taxes and helping save social security.

[slide to the left]

175. yeah

People complain about others being paid "under the table," but have you ever had someone babysit your kids? You pay them illegally. If I want some kid to mow my yard or pet sit, I would pay them in cash. Its just too much of a hassle to get all the paper work for temp jobs.

I know that some "legals" that have come from mexico still just get paid in cash. I have paid day laborors in cash and I know they were citizens. However, I feel rude asking for a green card, so I just don't.

[thinkingwoman]

177. Actually

I've never paid a babysitter and we mow our own grass. But we are weird people, obviously.

As for paying day laborers in cash because you "feel rude asking for a green card"...wow, you've got more guts than I do.

[slide to the left]

179. Well

I mean, should I ask a white guy to fill out paper work when I need his help building something? I have gotten paid in cash for things that I have done.

[thinkingwoman]

181. Don't get me wrong...

I'm not faulting you. I'm just saying you're braver than I am with employment and irs issues. That's all.

[Beausoir]

139. Do it then. Don't just stand around and whine. Do it!

We'll be waiting.

[RagingInMiami]

166. Um

That was the point of the thread. I'm siding with the people in the pictures I posted.

[countryjake]

146. Nah, they still think that their leaders are gonna take care of all that..

only when the oppression reaches a level that those in your pics have experienced, will they realize that there ain't a damn thing to lose anymore!

I shiver with pride everytime I see those pictures!

The tiny march I attended on Sunday was piddling in comparison, but joining it did much to strengthen and increase the power our local working people and their families have in the politics of our county.

Viva La Huelga!

[EFerrari]

154. Que Viva!

[Redstone]

182. Well, go ahead. I won't be there.

Redstone

[pat_k]

189. It's about more than self-interest -- It's about American Values

Until we impeach Bush and Cheney, we can't begin to fight for the common good on ANYTHING. (Impeachment First)

It is only when we purge the new American fascists from our public institutions that we can turn our attention to the messy -- but democratic -- process of finding solutions that serve the common good on this, and other critical problems.

Controlling our borders isn't really about control; it's about values

"Controlling our borders" means more than erecting barriers or patrolling. Controlling our borders is about making a commitment to act in a manner that is consistent with our values.

When we set employment standards we are expressing our values. Those standards reflect our belief that all human beings have a right to be treated fairly.

As long as we allow ANY workers to be exploited within our borders, we disgrace ourselves. As long as we turn a blind eye to the violations committed by people who enter illegally or remain after their visa expires, we demonstrate hypocrisy.

Guest worker programs have a place, but too often; such programs have been used to give employers a ticket to pay substandard wages and subject workers to unsafe conditions. We cannot tolerate programs that set different standards for "guests."

To be consistent with American values, we need to "just say no" to the exploitation workers -- documented or not. Continuing to permit predatory employers to operate within our borders will only drive more and more of Us and "Them" into poverty.

Controlling our borders with the stroke of a pen

Building a wall takes time. We don't need to wait. We can effectively control immigration with the stroke of a pen by passing legislation that includes two basic elements:

• Going after predatory employers.


• Offering a path to citizenship for whistleblowers and their families.

Specifically:

• Expand the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) to cover every business and individual employer, whether they employ documented or undocumented workers.
  Conditions and terms of employment must meet FLSA and safety requirements for any wage earner who meets the criteria that would require reporting under IRS rules (e.g, the IRS threshold this year is $1500 for most of work).


• Criminalize predatory employment practices.
  Predatory employers who are violating FLSA, violating OSHA standards, and evading taxes must be subject to prosecution and mandatory prison time.


• Whistleblower immigration amnesty.
  Clear processes for workers to report predatory employers and maintain anonymity throughout the course of investigation. Whistleblowers who are undocumented (whether an individual or a group) are offered a path to citizenship.


• Increase resources and create special units as required
  Affected agencies would include the Dept of Labor Wage and Hour Division, Dept of Justice, OSHA, IRS, and INS. The Wage and Hour Division is probably the logical agency to oversee the handling of charges against predatory employers, including preliminary investigation, referral to Justice for investigation and prosecution, referral to IRS, and coordination with INS to process undocumented whistleblowers and other undocumented workers.

Making implicit costs explicit

The harmful effects of supporting an underground economy are costly to the nation. When we "just say no" to the exploitation workers, some implicit costs will be made explicit. Americans have a choice. We can invest our tax dollars to our common benefit, or bear the costs -- both moral and monetary -- of exploiting other human beings.

If we choose make predatory employers the prime target, we can ensure the survival of vital "underground economy" sectors by providing transitional supports. We can offset increased costs of goods or services to the working class through tax credits. (Should be part of shifting the costs of citizenship from those who benefit the least from our common infrastructure to those who benefit the most.)

Radically changing the rules of the game

If predatory employers faced serious penalties, and the undocumented workers they are exploiting benefited from blowing the whistle, we would significantly increase the risk of exploiting workers.

The threat of exposure and prosecution alone will be sufficient for many to revamp their operations. In some sectors, the predators may simply move operations offshore. In others, predators may be forced out of business. As noted above, it may serve the public interest to provide transition assistance or start up assistance for replacement businesses.

Undoubtedly, a significant percent of undocumented workers would continue to evade detection, but employers would be far less likely to exploit them. If the workers are making a fair wage, the "race to the bottom" has a lower limit and the negative effect on wages is reduced.

We have a right enforce immigration law and deport violators

There are situations in which our interests are best served by providing an alternative to deportation. Nevertheless, if it does not serve a public interest to provide an alternative we should not hesitate to deport those who violate immigration laws.

We have a right to enforce our immigration laws. When we shift our focus to predatory employers, we are not forfeiting that right.

Offering legal status to whistleblowers serves us in two vital ways -- it deters predatory employers and it gives authorities vital resources "on the ground" who are motivated to expose those who are not deterred.

Targeting predatory employers creates a new class of unemployable undocumented workers If we do not institute a program that offers an opportunity to achieve legal (employable) status to those who are displaced, the deportation and support costs are likely to rise to intolerable levels.

If we decide that minimizing competition for jobs is worth the costs associated with deportation, the number of families who are offered legal status could be limited by entering those who qualify a "lottery" of sorts. It may seem harsh to allow chance to determine who stays and who goes, but deportation must remain the default consequence of breaking our immigration laws.

Conclusion

Our underground economy makes the United States very attractive to people who are struggling to survive in their own countries. We can change the dynamics right now and virtually eliminate the underground economy, and in the process, minimize the incentive to enter this country unlawfully.

Saying no to the exploitation of workers is central to controlling our borders. Radically changing the rules of the game makes other aspects of controlling immigration more manageable, but it does not eliminate the need for them. We still need to do a better job of tracking the foreign nationals who come here to work, study, or visit. We still need to make our border with Mexico as impenetrable as possible, while weighing the costs against the benefits.

We cannot continue to hypocritically turn a blind eye to violations of our immigration laws or tolerate the exploitation of workers within our borders. As is often the case, committing to enacting and enforcing laws that that reflect our values is not just the right thing to do, it ultimately serves the common good.

[Bridget Burke]

192. I've heard many heart-rending complaints about the American Worker....

So--why don't the unemployed workers get out there & protest? And their advocates--most of the DU'ers complaining here aren't really that blue collar.