France doesn't get it

[Nederland]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12045529/

I know many people will disagree with me on this one, but it seems to me that France just doesn't get it. Unemployment among people under 28 is 25%. Do they not understand why? Don't they get the fact that the strict labor laws that hinder a company's ability to fire workers merely makes those companies very, very leary of hiring new workers, especially younger workers with little experience or track record?

It seems to me that French youth are merely shooting themselves in the foot here.

[CanonRay]

1. At least they aren't sheep

that do whatever the corporations want! Like us.

[LSK]

2. imagine if we had protests when they passed the bankruptcy law

But nooo, nobody even knows it happened here.

:grr:

[Mass]

3. LOL - May be you should stop drinking the koolaid US media are

offering us.

France labor laws are far from being as strict as they say. Of course, by comparison to ours, they are, but it is hardly an example.

What do you think will happen if this law is passed. There will be no new jobs created. Simply, people will hire young people for 2 years -1 day and then fire them and hire somebody else. Everybody will lose except the companies.

[Nederland]

16. Question

I assume that you don't believe that France's labor laws are responsible for the high unempoyment among the youth. Assuming this is correct, how do YOU explain the high rates?

[Mass]

24. More than anywhere else in Europe

Because, given the way the US count their unemployement, you can multiply the rate by 3 to have something meaningful.

[Nederland]

26. Not true

The way the US and Europe calculate unemployment rate is very similar. I'm guessing that you believe the DU myth that the US unemployment rate only counts those people receiving unemployment benefits. It's simply not true. Look it up for yourself.

[Mass]

30. Here are the numbers for Europe

http://www.insee.fr/fr/ffc/chifcle_fiche.asp?ref_id=CMPTEF03310&tab_id=191

Note that France has about the same rate of youth unemployment than the UK and Spain, two countries who are supposedly growing, and average for Europe. (official European sources). Dont believe all you read in the US media.

(It used the ILO definition of unemployement).

[Nederland]

32. Ok, now compare apple to apples

Using the same definitions, show me US rates. I bet the the percentage of under 28 workers in the US is twice what it is in France.

[Mass]

36. May be you may look to it if you want to know.

I cant find them.

[muriel_volestrangler]

51. Depend if you look at unemployment rate

ie unemployment among those looking for work, or unemployed as proportion of the whole age group - because the number in education makes a lot of difference. From the ILO, via the UN:

unemployment rate (2002)
France 20.2% (aged 15-24)
US 12.0% (aged 16-24)

% of youth population (2002)
France 6.1%
US 7.6%

However, that would seem to mean that 63% of American youths aged 16-24 are looking for work, which, given the number who would still be in school, seems very high. the French proportion of 31% (for 15-24) seems more realistic.

[sui generis]

4. no they're not wrong

The exact language is "fire for ANY reason", which is the same as "fire for no reason at all", or basically, keep your workforce on a two year churn.

If the law had read that a young 'un could be let go before two years but with at least some provision for fairness, it would be a different story.

This is another example of corporatist interests trying to push an agenda that's supposed to be good for all of France but in reality is only good for the corporation.

[xchrom]

5. france has very stron socialist priniciple among the people

and job security is one of those principles.

firing workers isn't doing our economy any favors -- so i don't think the french aren't ''getting'' it.

india, china, indonesia, viet nam, etc are doing well because of some mistaken ideas about workers, cost of labour and corporate profits.

[Nederland]

18. Is high unemployment

also a socialist principle? How can you claim to be "for" workers when your policies create so few of them?

[xchrom]

52. it's their country.

you suggest that the french run their country according to principles held by something other than the majority or plurality?

mass firings in this country have not helped our unemployment.


why would those tactics be more effective somewhere else?

[Nederland]

53. Yes it is

And I would not and have not suggested that they run ther country by someting other than the majority or plurity. What I am suggesting (and I believe I was completely clear) is that they don't "get it". They don't understand that a system that fails to produce jobs cannot possibly be a system that is good for workers. It is impossible to be pro-employee and anti-employer.

[xchrom]

56. i've been to france several times.

i seem to see lots of working people.

also the unemployment problem{that was in your link} among youth has been going on for some time -- so at some point these kids DO get jobs.

france produces a good number of college graduates -- people who aren't looking for entry level jobs -- they're looking for something else.
these same people want low tuitions and greater access to higher education for everyone -- it's part of that socialist thing.
france has a vibrant economy -- but like all western economies it suffers from the pressures of globalism -- or the pressures that cheap labour off shore brings to their nations.

europeans in the street are far less certain that they want their politicians and corporations to continue to make trade agreements that damage their kitchen table economics.

i.e. they want diverse economies -- they want to make shirts and computer chips, shoes and tractors, etc.
a rational and well thought out argument would see the sense in this -- you have greater protection to your economy when there is diversity in it.

as usual you are far more conservative/free market driven in your thinking than i am.

i am socialist and absolutely believe in certain protections for people within a country -- and i certainly believe that people get it.

don't forget -- europeans invented capitalism -- they are old whores -- and i doubt if you could teach them any tricks.

[ThomCat]

6. Right, so allowing a race to American style labor is the answer.

Make every's employment so insecure that there is a race to the drop wages. Fire anyone who makes too much money and replace them with new people for minimum wage. Young people will have jobs, but their parents will be working two or three jobs to keep a roof over their heads.

If the corporations get their way and gut labor protections we'll see executives sucking all the money upwards into executive pay and bonuses, just like here in the US. Nobody will benefit except the people at the very top.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

9. The OP is correct, though.

Ask any French businessperson. And even with the CPE, the French employment system is nothing like the American employment system. At all.

[Mass]

11. I was for 10 years a businessperson and I disagree totally with you.

It will bring nothing, except the fact that people hired will be even less attached to their companies because they will know they have nothing to win there. They will be fired a few days before their contracts and replaced by somebody else on the same basis.

There are already plenty of ways to hire somebody on a temporary basis and most companies do that already.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

17. Did you start your own business?

Because that's a huge part of the problem in France. They have managed to make entrepreneuership so risky that it is almost entirely the province of the rich and priveledged. I know more than one person who would like to start a business in France - successful people who have started small businesses in other countries, who cannot do so in France because the risk it would place on them and their families is far too great. So what happens? You now have a McDonalds and/or Starbucks on half of the street corners in Paris, and small, locally-owned companies cannot compete because they don't have the resources of a Starbucks or a McDonald's, and they don't come from historically rich families. This HELPS corporations. It kills innovation. And it ensures that people remain stuck in whatever social class they were born into. It is every bit as bad as the unfettered corporatism in America and worse.

[Mass]

21. Yes, from scratch., and I was in my 20s and without money.

I am not sure where you get your info concerning France, but it seems to come from the RW French newspapers.

Sure, some people are too ready to screw people and go to countries that allow that, like the US or the UK. Many other people, though, start companies in France and succeed. Sadly, we can count on the right to talk about the first ones and never the second type.

Too bad.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

25. Ready to screw people?

So my friends intend to "screw people" by starting a business? And I get my information from freeper outlets? Do you have anything of value to contribute to this conversation at all?

As for this:
Many other people, though, start companies in France and succeed.

France has one of the lowest rates of entrepreneuership in Europe. I just explained why.

[SoCalDem]

54. My son was jazzed when he got his first job at Home Base..

He was hired along with about 5 other young guys.. They got their employess manuals..(He studied HIS)..90 day probation period, and then the medical benefits kicked in..the 401-k, the vacation time accumulation.. well.. at about 85 days of employment, a NEW groups of kids showed up, and the next paycheck had a lay-off notice in it..at day 88..

business as usual.. He was crushed..

He found a better job afterwards, but that first experience left a bitter taste with him..

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

7. Downward spiral.

France is going to wake up one day and find that it's no longer a first world country unless they do something to fix their economy. They're already a drag on the rest of the EU and I honestly wonder how long that can go on.

[maxsolomon]

12. if you substitute amurka for france & planet for EU

the sentence makes just as much sense.

9 trillion dollars in debt, a neverending war, peak oil looming, and permanent tax cuts for the wealthy.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

19. Really?

The United States has chronic youth unemplyment of 25%?

[maxsolomon]

22. of course not

we have so many prisons there's plenty of jobs - as guards or inmates, take your pick.

what is the percentage of incarceration of black youth in america? what is their unemployment rate?

say it out loud: france is not our enemy. france is not our enemy. france is not our enemy.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

27. I never suggested they were or should be our enemy.

But they have serious economic problems. And if you're suggesting that the US has a lower rate of unemployment because everyone is in jail, I... I just don't know where to begin.

[maxsolomon]

57. a good percentage of black men are in jail

are they not?

all i'm saying is that WE have serious economic problems, too. glass houses, etc.

frankly, i'm sick of the france bashing. its too easy to point at them & say "there but for the grace of god go i".

[etherealtruth]

34. Come visit Detroit ...

We certainly have regions where it is true.

[pitohui]

8. well it sure seems like a luxury problem to me

seems like they have the dole, free health care, etc. you almost wonder why they need a job

i don't think it is unreasonable to have a probationary period before you make someone a permanent employee

[Mass]

10. There is a probationary period now

+ most young people are hired on temporary jobs already.

But 2 years of probationary period?

[pitohui]

55. considering here it's forever since you're at will

i guess i don't see what they have to bitch abt, they have everything & don't have any idea what it's like everywhere else

[Igel]

13. The typical response has been to have short term

contracts; the employees aren't hired until they're proven. But then, having the short term contracts constantly expiring is actually easier to deal with than, say, the laws the US has about firing people. Non-renewal of a contract can be done for any reason, makes managing the size of the labor force in a company very, very easy, and it has no repercussions. Usually.

There was the teacher that took a group of kids hostage in France--last month, wasn't it? And what was the reason for his frustration? He was in his 30s, and had never been hired; he'd been going from short-term contract to short-term contract. They had no reason to hire him; and the result was that while the social safety net caught him, the employers had even fewer obligations to him than, say, a US corporation does to its employees.

Somehow, this guy's example hasn't ever come up. But his frustration has a fairly direct connection to what the under-25 set are protesting in favor of. On the other hand, they're rather the creme de la creme; if anybody's going to get a job, it'll be them. So they're just protesting so that their job--essentially a given--is well protected. True Rand-style ethics.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

20. That story is never brought up...

...because it doesn't fit nicely into the narrative of France-as-workers-paradise that is frequently propagated 'round here. But you are exactly correct. See my post about entrepreneuership upthread for my take on the other half of the problem from the employer's perspective.

[dogday]

14. I heard the new law would allow Corps

to fire these young people up to 2 years of employment with no cause.... I don't know how that is good for anyone...

[Swamp Rat]

15. I respect the French youth more than American youth.

At least they fight for their rights, while the youth here (not EVERYONE) just wait for things to happen while they watch "Survivor," etc.

[dogday]

23. I saw that interview--What A Dufess

I hope he is not going into politics, he is a Dufess and a half!!!!

[jim3775]

28. Stop believing corporate media BS, here are the facts:

European Tribune: Actual facts about the French labor market

Here is an excerpt:

As France goes through another day of protests, the coverage in the US press is so appallingly bad that I am not surprised by some of the comments in my previous diaries, by people that are shocked by the seemingly irrational behavior of the French.

Let me say it as directly as I can: most of the coverage I have seen is either wilfully ignorant or purposedly lying, and they repeat a number of falsehoods about the French labor market that are, quite simply, shocking.

Let me try to correct the record.

Again, this should preoccupy you guys, because the underlying message is: progressive economic policies are failures, and only further "reforms" (read pay workers less and give them fewer rights, bust unions and cut taxes to corporates) will work. If even you guys buy that, what hope is there to change things?

...

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

31. First off,

That site is using the same incorrect unemployment calculations that were discussed upthread. I stopped reading after it began downplaying the importance of last year's riots.

[jim3775]

33. There is plenty of sourced info there if you would have bothered

to read it instead of dismissing it outright because it challenges your conventional beliefs.

[Mass]

40. The employement statistics are NOT incorrect.

I know they dont fit your views, but they are based on ILO definitions and are the same for all European countries.

[Nederland]

44. Dead Wrong

The numbers in the posters link are NOT ILO numbers. They are made up numbers using a different methodology made up by the author of the linked page.

You seem to favor using ILO numbers. Fine. Here is a link to the ILO website:

http://www.ilo.org/public/english/employment/strat/publ/etp23.htm

<snip>

Over the last twenty years, youth unemployment -e.g. of unemployment among the under 25's - has become a major issue of the French labour market situation, and therefore a key challenge for all successive governments. Indeed, since 1983, the rate of unemployment (according to the ILO definition) among young people has rarely fallen below the 20 per cent mark - twice the average for the labour force as a whole - even if there has been a slight decrease in 1986; at the end of 1996, the rate was 26 per cent. This French experience, however, is by no means unique in Europe: in Italy in 1996 one young person out of three was unemployed, and in Spain two out of five, although in Germany the corresponding figure was only 1 in 10 (Eurostat, 1996). By contrast, in Germany, only out of ten was jobless (Eurostat, 1996). Germany is often taken as an example, since it is the only western country where the youth unemployment rate is lower than the overall unemployment rate, over the 1970-1990 period (Elbaum, Marchand, 1994).

The persistence, in France, of a high youth unemployment rate is all the more surprising given that during the same period the school enrolment rate has continued to rise, leading to a progressive and significant reduction of their participation in the labour force(1). Furthermore, governments have undertaken very large-scale initiatives in support of young people: youth employment programmes have become ever more diversified and above all ever more numerous during the same period, while expenditure on active employment programmes has multiplied by six in twenty years (Gélot and Osberg, 1995). Demographic factors do not worsen the youth situation on the labour market: total youth population has been decreasing compared with total population since the beginning of the seventies. Finally, the growing demand for labour in sectors that employ more than the average of young people (retail trade, catering etc.) during the last twenty years (OECD, 1996), should also have contributed to a reduction in French youth unemployment.

<snip>

[malaise]

37. Bingo

it's all about more neo-liberal policies - to hell with workers. Viva la France!!

[Mass]

38. Thanks for posting that - It is mindboggling to see people on DU

repeating the RW lies.

[Nederland]

39. From your own link:

Employment rate: 66.2% (as compared to France's 30.4%)
Unemployment rate: 11.3% (as compared to France's 23%)
Unemployed: 7.6% of the total number of under-25s (as compared to France's 8.1%)


This means that more than twice as many young people in the US have jobs as those in France (66.2% vs. 30.4%). I suppose you would claim that this doesn't matter because the reason that France has many more students than the US. But it does matter. Students, especially those in France that have their education funded by the government, are consuming revenue from the general population. Thus it is a double edged sword, not only are fewer French youth working and contributing to the tax base, they are actually consuming government resources.

On edit: these numbers don't make sense. Since I don't read French I admit I can't figure out the meaning of the statistics in the link, but it simply doesn't add up. How do you get an unemployment rate of 23% while claiming the only 8.1% of that group is unemployed? If you could explain how these numbers are calculated I'd appreciate it.

[Mass]

41. Yes, and it is explained in English in the post

One is the ratio compared to the active population (and in France, students are not active, meaning that the % of unemployed will be higher), the other one is relative to the overall population, students and non-students.

The right column id the proportion of youth that are unemployed (as a fraction of the whole age class). The left column is the employment rate: the proportion of youth that work. It is much lower in France, but this is explained to a large extent by the fact that a lot of the youth are students, and they do not need to work to pay for their studies.

See this graph: that's the portion of youth that have to work while being students




Students are not "active" in France, and thus the active population is higher, and thus the unemployment rate appears correspondingly higher even though the number of youth unemployed is no higher than, say, in the UK.

[Nederland]

42. That doesn't explain a thing

If you want to compare things fairly, you have to use the same standard. Why is it that French students should be considered "not active" and not US students? We can argue all day about whether or not the definition of the word "active" should include students or not, but it is indisputable that you have to use the same methodology if the comparision is to be meaningful.

So I return to my point above. Using this same methodology, what are US rates? Above you imply that you couldn't figure them out, which means simply that you've proven absolutely nothing here.

[Mass]

43. Read the post, and if you dont want to read, dont

[Nederland]

46. LOL

You really don't get it, do you?

Why do you think the students don't need to work?

Because they get monetary assistence from the government!

The net result is that there is a very small percentage of people in France that are actually working and paying taxes. The rest of the people are living off other people's labor. This is not a good thing. It is a bad thing.

Get it?

[Mass]

47. I do get it. You dont. You apply US standards to France.

Ignore is my friend.

[Nederland]

49. Response

Yes, I admit that I'm applying US standards to France. That is because I believe that the US policy of having a broad tax base and employing as many people as possible is better than the French system. I believe that a system where people that are perfectly capable of earning a living have the opportunity to do so is preferable to a system that does not provide people that are capable of providing for themselves the opportunity to do so. I think a system that tries to minimize the number of people that live off the labor of others is preferable to a system that fails to do so. Yes, it is a biased opinion, but the fact that far more people chose to leave France and seek opportunities here than the other way around speaks volumes as to which system is preferred by the average person.

And yes, if you are so absolutely certain that you are right that you feel comfortable closing your mind to rational debate, ignore is your friend.

[hughee99]

29. I tend to agree...

at the very least, it makes the value of outsourcing even greater. If a company can hire someone either in France or abroad, EVEN IF THEY PAY THEM THE SAME (which of course they wouldn't), at least they could quickly fire a worker in a foreign country if they are not good at their job.

[malaise]

35. Well the workers have joined the students

The West will see a warm summer as youth everywhere are getting angry and waking up.

[Rainscents]

45. France get it! We (America) don't get it!

[Kellanved]

48. No, that is the "flexibility" myth

The myth that hire&fire produces jobs. It is simply not the case. It should be noted, that the countries like the UK which pride themselves most on their flexibility (many studies claim that they are not actually flexible, though) have even higher rates of youth unemployment.

In this case your main error is to believe the current regulations to be against smaller businesses. Not so: small companies are allowed to hire&fire, as the French government introduced such regulations last year, inspired by the German legislation.
The second mistake you're making is the assumption that the ones affected by the new rules are identical to those unemployed. Again, that is not the case. Youth unemployment is linked to the removal of low-qualification jobs in the public sector and the industry; jobs which will never come back to central Europe. No matter how flexible the job market might become.

Students are fearing for their rights, as those are removed under the pretense to act against youth unemployment. Hence the protests.

[Nederland]

50. Wrong

It should be noted, that the countries like the UK which pride themselves most on their flexibility (many studies claim that they are not actually flexible, though) have even higher rates of youth unemployment.

This is empirically false. British youth unemployment rates are significantly lower than French rates.


http://www.diw.de/english/produkte/publikationen/bulletin/docs/eb01/n01_03mrz_2.html

(see Table 1)