We can’t even talk sensibly about illegal immigration

[Alcibiades]

I’ve been to Europe, and I like it there. The trouble is that they won’t take me. I doubt Mexico would either. Every country has laws on the books to restrict immigration, but we have stopped enforcing ours, going from 2 million illegal aliens in 1980 to 11 million today. For us, the issue is fraught with political danger. Latinos/Hispanics tend to vote Democratic, and so we see naturalizing illegal aliens as a source of new votes. We also don’t want to tick off the many Latinos who are already here, many of whom have been here as long as any of the ancestors of White, Black and Asian folks, or indeed, much longer, given that so many have Indian ancestry.

Compounding this is the fact that we tend to look at the issue through the lens of the civil rights movement, without ever asking whether this is an appropriate analogy. And, of course, we tend to side with the downtrodden, and if anyone is downtrodden, it’s the poor of Central and South America. The US government created this problem in part by supporting repressive regimes in Latin America because they were “anticommunist,” yet we ignored their corruption, criminality, and the fact that they did nothing for the betterment of the peoples of Central and South America.

Plus, many of those who do favor restricting immigration are unreconstructed, out and out racists. We certainly don’t want to be on their side. And, of course, we all accept the multicultural axiom that diversity is good.

And yet we need to ask what the tide of immigration, illegal or legal, is doing to the natural Democratic constituency, the American working class. It’s simply not true that the jobs that are being taken are all jobs the native born will not do—the construction industry comes to mind. It’s also claimed that we couldn’t arrest 11 million people and send them home, but we don’t apply this logic to other laws, such as the laws against drugs. I heard on NPR that Mexico is actually facing a labor shortage, in part because many of the working-age people come to the US. Though we tend to focus on the costs to us, illegal immigration may actually hurt the countries of origin. I don’t have the answer, but how about let’s make the countries of Central and south America actually decent places for people to live—all the people, not just the privileged. Maybe we cannot afford it, but something like a Marshall Plan.

I do think we need to stop calling anyone who points out any of the social ills of massive illegal immigration racist. Is it racist to not want to live next door to 11 unrelated young men who drink all the time and trash the place. My sister did, and they happened to be illegal immigrants, though they could have been white frat boys, the effect was the same. Where I live, our predominantly Black, inner city school system has had to put many more resources into bilingual teachers, resources that were scarce and badly needed already. We celebrate diversity, but become uncomfortable when we mention that cultural and socio-economic factors have led to a concentration of young immigrants with growing families in areas with low property values and public schools that were already overburdened.

Do we come up with some sort of sensible policy? Or do we just wait for the Republicans to pull a Pete Wilson on this issue? While that certainly has something to be said for it, I don’t trust them to come up with an immigration policy that’s fair to either native-born workers or immigrants.

[Critters2]

1. I do hope you're wearing a flame-proof suit

You're gonna need it!!

[TallahasseeGrannie]

2. I'm staying out of this one

:popcorn:

[DanCa]

8. Sometimes discrestion is the better part of valor. :D

I am staying out of this one until I study all angles on illegal immigrations.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

13. Yes, I am basically clueless

with one exception. I think that children who are in this country are our responsibility whether they are citizens or not. I'm kind of a bleeding heart that way.

[DanCa]

19. I agree with you 100 percent

I don't want to see any kid sick hurt or hungry. :hug:

[Maru Kitteh]

20. I'm with you on the kids Grannie, until they hit college age

Our state is proposing a bill that would allow illegals to pay in-state tuition. I think that SUCKS. It's terribly unfair to legal citizen students in neighboring states to have to wait in line or belly up tons more cash than someone who isn't even supposed to be here by law.

[proud2BlibKansan]

39. That is the law in Kansas

They have to be a resident of Kansas, graduated from a high school in Kansas, be working on citizenship, and meet all entrance requirements for the college.

I have absolutely no problem with this. These kids did not choose to come here and live here illegally; their parents did. Why punish the kids? I also cannot speak out against any plan that makes a college education affordable to any student.

As for kids in neighboring states, if they want instate residency rates on tuition, they can either go to college in their home state or move to Kansas and establish residency. I think kids who live here, go to our schools, and come from families that pay taxes in Kansas are far more worthy of instate tuition than a kid who lives in a different state and has not contributed in any way to the economy in Kansas and has not been educated in one of our schools. Why in the world are they more deserving of a break on tuition just because they were fortunate enough to be born this side of the Mexican border?

I myself attended grad school in Kansas and paid out of state tuition because at the time I lived 5 miles from the state line in Missouri. I never once whined that I deserved instate rates. That is silly. If I had wanted to save on tuition, I could have moved to Kansas or enrolled in a grad school in Missouri.

[Critters2]

48. Knowing Kansas' fine reputation for education

I doubt people in other states are lining up to go to college there. Creationism, a fine educational tradition.

[cornermouse]

77. Don't be ridiculous.

Kansas has a fine reputation for education. I should know. They set me up well enough that I was able to return to school 30 years later and still beat out a respectable percentage of younger students in another state and make a more than respectable }( score on those national tests that they like to give.

And by the way, that same neoconservatism is headed your way. Are you prepared?

[Critters2]

80. For a board of education that requires the teaching of

creationism? Not likely a problem here. But thanks for caring.

[Maestro]

63. As a teacher and administrator at a school with primarily

children of immigrants I agree with your statement. They are not to blame plus the SCOTUS has ruled that we must teach them or risk creating even more problems for ourselves with an uneducated underclass. See Plyer vs. Doe for more info.

[EVDebs]

3. Paul Krugman's latest column North of the border along with

Paul Samuelson's column for Newsweek a few months ago show that illegal immigration, and legal immigration for that matter, have their limits

The Hard Truth of Immigration
No society has a boundless capacity to accept newcomers, especially when many of them are poor or unskilled workers
ttp://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8100266/site/newsweek/from/RL.3/

North of the border
http://select.nytimes.com/gst/tsc.html?URI=http://select.nytimes.com/2006/03/27/opinion/27krugman.html&OQ=_rQ3D1Q26hp&OP=bb0b9feQ2FsehZsQ22HNEEQ22s6Q3EQ3E7sQ3EQ3Fs6Q5BsEQ3A(Q5D(EQ5Ds6Q5B,NkaPVQ5DI)Q22PY

Flame away, but a secure border combined with a legal immigration system with adequate protections for US citizens is a requirement for a sustainable political economy.

[Mythsaje]

4. I have not the talent to look at a person

and know whether they're here legally or illegally. When you get right down to it, none of us do.

I've said it on other threads. I don't blame those who come here trying to improve their lots in life. But I blame the policies of government and corporations who are using the motivation of such people against US.

Illegal immigration is a security issue. It's an ecomonic issue. It's a political issue that needs to be addressed. Blaming the PEOPLE is not helping matters.

Don't hate the people, hate the policies.

That is all.

[Alcibiades]

12. In some places

Virtually all Hispanics are here illegally. In North Carolina, where I live, there simply were no Hispanics 20 years ago. My neighborhood is about 20% Hispanic now. I have talked to immigrants while going door to door campaigning. None are registered to vote. Why? Because they are not eligible. I've looked at the voter rolls for my town. I would estimate that Hispanics make up about 1-2% of the local citizen population (mainly, they have moved here from another state with a larger Hispanic population).

I agree that we should not hate the people, and I think some sort of amnesty/citizenship program should be on the table. I think we should make efforts to assimilate immigrants into our culture, as we always have. That's what the post said--the question is, how do we go about it as a matter of policy and politics?

[Mythsaje]

16. Go after the corporations that hire them...

Fight for a living wage for ALL workers, and make paying them less because they're illegal impossible. Give whistle-blowers immunity from prosecution and a fast-track to citizenship. Make it expensive to exploit them.

[RufusEarl]

22. Bingo!

It always about the all mighty dollar. The employer is at fault here, meaning the policy makers in Washington. We already have laws on the books to handle the illegal immigration problem, we've had them for years. The problem is Washington doesn't want to piss off corp america, are force them to obey the laws of the land that are already on the books.

[Alcibiades]

33. Sounds sensible to me.

[kurth]

5. You forgot to mention the emergency room

where the uninsured American working poor await their medical care, alongside the undocumented foreigners who don't have to worry about identification, bills, bill collectors, and such trivialities.

[PsN2Wind]

9. About twelve years ago I sat in an E.R.

with a hot appendix, which later ruptured, while a Hispanic lady's child was being treated for the sniffles. This was in Oregon.
Now medical centers are closing in S. Ariz because of the costs of treating mostly Hispanic, maybe or maybe not legal, individuals with no compensation for their costs.

[fujiyama]

74. That's unfortunate

but do you know for sure that woman was illegal? Most Hispanics have entered here legally.

But your point is valid in that illegal immigration is a defenite strain on the economy (both local and federal), health care, education, and other public services.

The US has to start charging the Mexican government for all this. Either that, or start holding back aid, IMF loans, and possibly even tarrifs.

Though, of course, it's not all their government's fault. It's largely corporations here, so they should flip the bill too. The fines need to be increased and the penalties need to be stiffened.

[Marie26]

6. Trying to be sensible

I do agree that illegal immigrants have had an effect on certain industries, such as construction or landscaping. Immigration can also be a strain on schools & social service agencies. But the solution of deporting 11 million people is not feasible. You mention the "War Against Drugs." How successful has that war been? The fact is that as long as there is a demand, there is a supply. If a demand exists for illegal drugs, the supply will get here no matter what laws we pass. If corporations are demanding illegal immigrant labor, that supply will also come no matter what. The solution is stopping the demand. We need to change the laws to impose stiffer penalties & punishment for corporations that exploit illegal immigrants. How about some concessions? Your post didn't include any ways in which immigration can be a benefit to Americans - surely there must be some?

[DanCa]

10. We do need a humane immigration policy.

But I will be the first to admit that I am clueless as how to achieve it. I do think that the minute men are disgusting but theres gotta be in answer somewhere between the two extremes.

[Critters2]

15. Real penalties on businesses that hire illegals

And consumers avoiding those businesses. I've stopped eating meat because the meat industry is among the worst at exploiting illegal immigrants. I only buy eggs from some members of my congreation who raise their own free-range chickens. These are steps, but it's difficult to know which restaurant has illegal immigrants working in the dish room, etc.

The onus lies with the government to stop allowing corporations to break the law. REAL penalties against the employers is the ONLY way to put a stop to this practice.

Notice no one--not Repugs, not Dems--in Congress are even discussing this. Both parties disgust me!

[Marie26]

70. Because corporations make big donations,

& poor immigrants do not. So even though penalties against employers is the most effective solution, it's also one that politicians will not propose. It's very frustrating.

[Mythsaje]

76. Maybe we should use the voter initiatives in those states

that allow them to push it through. :evilgrin:

Gotta be more use than Tim Eyeman's crap here in Washington State.

[Alcibiades]

14. I did address supply

Most people would rather stay at home, in their own land, in their own culture, if possible. I think the solution is making the economies of the countries of origin more viable, as well as some sort of citizenship program, and perhaps expanded legal immigration, and some actual enforcement of employers.

[Marie26]

40. Good ideas

As to making economies more viable, Latin American countries are doing that well enough. There's been a huge uprising that has swept across most of Latin America. Chile, Bolivia, & Venezuela have all replaced pro-American capitalist governments w/socialist or liberal governments. These governments emphasize kicking out the global corporations, owning their own resources & wealth, respecting the rights of indigenous populations and lifting people out of poverty. Latin Americans & Americans are on the same side here - against the wealthy corporations.

Yes, you did address supply, I was just saying that you hadn't addressed the flip side of that equation - ending demand. I like your other thoughts about allowing more legal immigration & citizenship opportunities, as well as enforcement against employers. These changes will go a long way towards reducing the problem by reducing the demand for illegal labor. I mentioned the benefits of immigration because I wanted to see if you could come up w/a positive to oppose all the negatives in the OP. I think to have an honest discussion, it's good to have an evaluation of both the positives & negatives of any issue.

[Alcibiades]

82. we need more leaders like Hugo Chavez

You're right, there is much wealth in Central and South America. To date, the problem has been with distribution. These societies need the chance to become middle class societies, a chance that they cannot have if local elites collude with multinational corporations to strip these coutnries of their natural resources and labor without reinvestment.

One possible benefit of invading Iraq is that the military is too preoccupied to intervene against leftist governments in Central and South America. 20 years ago, they would have been given the Allende treatment.

We should all buy our gas at Citgo.

[mmonk]

7. .

[sui generis]

11. I understand the sentiment but

We need to consider declaring an amnesty and we really do need to make it harder to be an undocumented immigrant here, in a way that's not inhumane or dangerous.

And we need to address our border issues.

There are pockets of latino ghetto all over Dallas, of extraordinarily poor people who have been here for generations without learning english, without sending their kids to school, without any standard for seeking U.S. citizenship except that the grass is greener here.

I can personally tell you that the great majority don't vote, don't identify with a political party, and aren't engaged in the political process or civic education. They are just getting by. The last issue that actually spurred the Dallas latino community to get out in droves was gay marriage - voting against it, and I see 2 out of every five yard signs supporting Republicans, when they ARE engaged in the political process.

They're here. Their kids are dating our kids, they're bringing their Mamitas and Papis here, they are finding employment and happiness and hope and a better standard of living than they ever had in Mexico . . . even in the ghettos here.

We have to bring them in and get them paying taxes and contributing to the village. If the problem is immigration, then deal with the mechanics of immigration, not with the immigrants who are already here. Sending them back is simply NOT an option and anyone who doesn't live near a latino community cannot comprehend how impossible, how dangerous that would be to our social fabric to even attempt.

If the borders are the problem, then focus on solving the border problem. We can't unmake the past or the present.

[ginnyinWI]

17. Read Sen. Kennedy's proposal

http://kennedy.senate.gov/index_high.html

I like this a lot. Very smart, covers all bases.

Key points:
--They can work here for six years and try to become citizens if they want to, waiting their turn in the system like everyone else.
--They pay all their taxes, including back taxes, plus a $2000 fine.
--They don't "take jobs away" because they can bargain for wages and benefits the same as any worker, including joining a union. Won't be bargain-basement workers for their employers to exploit. The SEIU approves. Labor laws will protect them and hold employers accountable.
--Truth is, our economy has room for at least 400,000 immigrant workers a year, and currently only a small fraction are legally allowed. If more are needed, Kennedy's amendment allows for flexible caps.
--They will be background checked for a criminal history, and will need to learn English and American civics. Isn't this better for national security than 12 million people "in the shadows"?

Also,I'd be willing to bet that these new citizens become Dem voters.

[tatertop]

26. That sounds like a reasonable platform start from

[John Barrett]

30. It's not about the USA....instead it's about politics.

""Also,I'd be willing to bet that these new citizens become Dem voters.""

You just said the long and short of it when it comes to our politicians? They could care less about the issues. It's about keeping themselves in office....:)

400,000 new immigrant workers a year effectively puts a cap on any bargaining by employees from a position of strength. Bargaining is about using market forces to one's benefit and that takes labor shortage out of the equation. Under Kennedy's proposal there will be boundless labor for the capitalists to exploit. Thank you Ted Kennedy!

[OzarkDem]

59. And what of those who don't work

Many come to the US and bring large families (parents, grandparents) who don't work, but apply for federal and state benefits like health care, etc. We can't afford those, too.

[proud2BlibKansan]

62. They aren't eligible for federal and state benefits

like health care, etc if they aren't citizens.

We all absolutely must educate ourselves to know what to advocate for. If an immigrant is not a legal citizen, they may not draw welfare or food stamps. They also may not enroll in Medicaid.

[Mr.Green93]

18. We will not solve "illegal immigration"

The Mexican peoples are solving it for us. Coming here is their Manifest Destiny.

[kurth]

23. America: Mexico's Necessary Lebensraum??

The Hard Truth of Immigration
No society has a boundless capacity to accept newcomers, especially when many of them are poor or unskilled workers.
By Robert J. Samuelson

... The huge and largely uncontrolled inflow of unskilled Latino workers into the United States is increasingly sabotaging the assimilation process. Americans rightly glorify our heritage of absorbing immigrants. Over time, they move into the economic, political and social mainstream; over time, they become American rather than whatever they were—even though immigrants themselves constantly refashion the American identity. But no society has a boundless capacity to accept newcomers, especially when many are poor and unskilled. There are now an estimated 34 million immigrants in the United States, about a third of them illegal. About 35 percent lack health insurance and 26 percent receive some sort of federal benefit, reports Steven Camarota of the Center for Immigration Studies. To make immigration succeed, we need (paradoxically) to control immigration.

What's particularly disturbing is that children of Mexican immigrants don't advance quickly. In 2000, Americans of Mexican ancestry still had lower levels of educational achievement and wages than most native-born workers. Among men, the wage gap was 27 percent; about 21 percent were high-school dropouts and only 11 percent were college graduates. Borjas and Katz can't explain the lags. "What's the role of culture vs. lousy schools?" asks Katz. "It's hard to say." Borjas doubts that the cause is discrimination. Low skills seem to explain most of the gap, he says. Indeed, after correcting for education and age, most of the wage gap disappears. Otherwise, says Borjas, "I don't know."

But some things we do know—or can infer. For today's Mexican immigrants (legal or illegal), the closest competitors are tomorrow's Mexican immigrants (legal or illegal). The more who arrive, the harder it will be for existing low-skilled workers to advance. Despite the recession, immigration did not much slow after 2000, says Camarota. Not surprisingly, a study by the Pew Hispanic Center found that inflation-adjusted weekly earnings for all Hispanics (foreign and American-born) dropped by 2.2 percent in 2003 and 2.6 percent in 2004. "Latinos are the only major group of workers whose wages have fallen for two consecutive years," said the study. Similarly, the more poor immigrants, the harder it will be for schools to improve the skills of their children. The schools will be overwhelmed; the same goes for social services.

We could do a better job of stopping illegal immigration on our southern border and of policing employers who hire illegal immigrants. At the same time, we could provide legal status to illegal immigrants already here. We could also make more sensible decisions about legal immigrants—favoring the skilled over the unskilled. But the necessary steps are much tougher than most politicians have so far embraced, and their timidity reflects a lack of candor about the seriousness of the problem. The stakes are simple: will immigration continue to foster national pride and strength or will it cause more and more weakness and anger?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8100266/site/newsweek/from/RL.3/

[Xithras]

24. Manifest Destiny is a racist concept.

Find a better quote to borrow.

[Squeech]

21. WTF

I'm as conflicted as Krugman, roughly for his reasons, but I've got one more.

I have a Brazilian friend (no joke) who was here as an illegal for about ten years-- overstayed his student visa, tried to get legal, long story but people he trusted fucked him over, and ended up being deported. All he wanted was to stay here and be a gay man in a community that didn't want to beat him up automatically because of his sexual orientation, and in return he was willing to work hard (two jobs, plus helping raise a kid for somebody way less responsible). The INS in its infinite wisdom decided he was not the kind of citizen we wanted-- I guess there were American citizens who really needed those two jobs at Star Market and Boston Chicken.

Who do we want? People that already show up with pockets full of money and ready to spend it. Like Mohammed Atta, who was more than willing to pay handsomely for those flying lessons he was just, er, dying to take...

[Avalux]

25. Here's what I want.

Controlled borders, a way to legalize the illegal immigrants already here short of granting across-the-board amnesty, and the most important - stiff PENALTIES for corporations and smaller companies who exploit illegal immigrants by paying them pennies. It's not so much that Americans won't do the work, it's that illegal immigrants can be paid a whole lot less. There has got to be consequences on the employer end of this or there won't be a solution. As it stands right now, illegal immigrants are being abused by employers; they have no rights and aren't protected by laws.

How about a minimum wage of $10 for EVERYONE??? Guest workers, American citizens....all will be paid the same rate.

[Alcibiades]

34. I share your conflict

One of my friends-a Brazilian with Canadian citizenship--had a similar problem in grad school, almost got deported on a technicality.

The strange thing is that the people who do plug in to institutions such as higher education, and who are involved in their communities, are more likely to attract INS attention than the millions flying below the radar.

[John Barrett]

27. We need a parliamentarian system

The more I see how Bush has screwed up our country in the last 5 years, and now with this illegal immigration boondoggle probably rammed down our throats, the more I believe we need a parliamentarian system that makes government responsive to the voters instead of the tainted corrupt system that we have.

In addition, why not put the very important immigration issue on a national referendum, binding in principle. For example....Do you favor an amnesty and a direct path to citizenship for those who are in the country illegally Y/N? Do you favor a guest worker program that would allow 500,000 people to come here to work Y/N? ETC. Law would be written based upon the outcome and neither party could be held accountable.

Frankly our elected leaders don't care what most Americans believe on this. They will and have just demonstrated they will do their own thing. They know they have a lock on the job for the most part, and vote with impunity.

[Minnesota Libra]

28. If illegal aliens - from anywhere - truly wanted to be part of American...

.....society the least they could do when they demonstrate is CARRY AN AMERICAN FLAG.

Now go back and look at all the photos of recent demonstrations and see how many AMERICAN flags you see versus how many foreign flags you see. That says it all for me!!

Seems to me many illegal aliens don't want to become part of AMERICA they want to TAKE OVER AMERICA.

Someone much wiser than I will ever be said it much better than I ever could.

"In the first place we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the man's becoming in very fact an American, and nothing but an American...
There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag, and this excludes the red flag, which symbolizes all wars against liberty and civilization, just as much as it excludes any foreign flag of a nation to which we are hostile...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."
--Theodore Roosevelt, 1919

[kurth]

29. Future headline: After 500,000 Hispanics demonstrate,

U.S. Senate approve Spanish as official language.

[Minnesota Libra]

31. In some parts of the country English is already the SECOND language nt

[hunter]

32. Horrors!

I was sort of hoping we could all speak Mixtec...

:rofl:

[Marie26]

41. This is relevant, how? nt

[Critters2]

43. ...in hopes hispanics will support their respective political parties

[EFerrari]

51. Spanish is the legal co-official language in much of the Southwest

per the Treaty of Guadlupe Hidalgo.

But, that's just a treaty signed by the United States. :eyes:

[doublethink]

35. Here ya go .....

and you know what gets me ...... you responded to that thread and apparently didn't see any of those pictures on it. Here's the thread for you to look through again. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x768293 And if you would please slowly scan the WHOLE thread before continuing your belligerent un-educated, un-informed assault on something you obviously know nothing about. Or the people your are attacking. I call BULLSHIT when I see it. Hope you get better informed on this issue, start with post #70 there. Peace. :)

[Minnesota Libra]

36. I lived in a city that had been take over by illegal aliens but notice....

......I am not saying what race - I think ALL ILLEGAL ALIENS ARE bad for America.

I will say one thing, I'm glad some were smart enough to at least carry American flags - I am truly impressed. Having lived it though, my experience was the American flag was second and their country of origin was first.

As I said, I lived it up close and personal so please don't assume I don't know of which I speak.

[hunter]

37. In some ways I am very cynical.

It's sort of interesting to sit back and watch Mexican forms of government corruption competing with U.S. forms of government corruption.

I hear Norway is among the least corrupt nations in the world, but it's cold there and I don't want to learn Norwegian.

[Critters2]

45. I have several parishioners who speak Norwegian

Some phrases are surprisingly similar to English. I think I could learn it. And I don't mind cold, in fact I am deeply disappointed with this winter.

[Strelnikov_]

46. Norway Wouldn't Let You In Anyway

I also pine for the fjords at times.

[Critters2]

47. Pining for the fjords?!

:spray:

[Marie26]

69. Now what is that from? nt

[doublethink]

38. No one is assuming anything here ......

What you said is what YOU said. There was no assumption on my part seeing all those Pictures of American Citizens, Immigrants, Protesters, CARRYING AMERICAN FLAGS, AND NOT JUST 'SOME' ..... Are you fricking blind? And did you bother to read, look at any other posts on that thread (post #70) there either? People wrap themselves in 'flags' for any number of reasons. Heritage, whatever. Ohhhh so you had a 'bad' experience by the big bad illegal aliens in your life somewhere. Can I ask just where was that? OMG! A city over-run by the aliens! THERE TAKING OVER AMERICA! Jesus Christ, don't we get enough fear tactics from the Bush cronies? :eyes: Whatever, hope you get out of Minnesota someday and live among-st the rest of humanity. Peace. :)

[Minnesota Libra]

42. That was ONE picture, there were other pictures where the American flag...

......was in very short supply though. I'm talking about ALL PICTURES OF RECENT DEMONSTRATIONS TAKEN AS A WHOLE, not just pick and choose for one's own benefit.

One of our previous Presidents said it much better than I could.....

"In the first place we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the man's becoming in very fact an American, and nothing but an American...
There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag, and this excludes the red flag, which symbolizes all wars against liberty and civilization, just as much as it excludes any foreign flag of a nation to which we are hostile...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."
--Theodore Roosevelt, 1919

[doublethink]

49. HOLLY SHIT BATMAN!

YOU STILL REFUSE TO GO TO THIS THREAD HERE ...... http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x768293

AND LOOK AT ALL THE PICTURES IN THE ENTIRE THREAD ALL THE WAY TO THE BOTTOM OF THE PAGE! FUCK! I CAN'T HELP YOUR REFUSAL TO OPEN YOUR FRICKING EYES! I TRIED! I REALLY DID! WHEN YOU CAN FINALLY DO THAT THEN MAYBE JUST MAYBE YOU CAN TRY OPENING YOUR MIND TOO! :rofl:

ps: you never named the city over-run by the dreaded aliens? :shrug: Peace. :)

[Minnesota Libra]

50. Nor do I intend to mention the city taken over by illegal aliens..........

........that I moved from - that is not the point. This is my home now.

It would be rather hypocritical of me to slam someone else for hanging on to a past residence when they've moved to a new residence if I was going to do the same thing. Don't ya thunk???? :wtf:

Yes, I did look at the photos by the way. Nine pictures all prominently displaying another country's flag. The American flag had to be separately added at the bottom - point made.

[doublethink]

52. THE WHOLE THREAD ..... NOT ONLY THE ORIGINAL POST!

THE RESPONSES TO THE ORIGINAL POST! ALL 112 RESPONSES AND COUNTING! ARE YOU PLAYING STUPID HERE OR SOMETHING? YOU DO LOOK AT OTHER RESPONSES IN THREADS SOMETIMES DON'T YOU? NOT THE ORIGINAL 9 PICTURES BUT THE 32 OTHER PICTURES IN THE THREAD ...... DAMMIT MAN! :rofl: and this is my last comment ....

your lying about the city over-run by illegals. I must go now and conquer other minds, so long and farewell! I bid you Peace. :hi:

[Minnesota Libra]

54. ".....this is my last comment" Promise?????? nt

[AllieB]

53. Some of these posters would freak out where I grew up

The city that I grew up in was about 35% first generation-from all over the world. Xenophobia is ugly, isn't it?

There were protests in Boston, and the immigrants were waving American flags, along with the flags of their country of origin. After five years of Bush and overt media manipulation, you'd think people would figure out that they were being duped.

[doublethink]

56. And on that note I gotta go .... but thank you, finally ......

a reasonable response to all of this. :hug: and Peace. :hi:

[Marie26]

65. A little off-topic

I have a question. I don't watch CNN, but was wondering if people are getting this idea from Dobb's show? Has he commented or only shown pictures of people waving foreign flags? It just seems like this talking point is popping up all over by people who also quote Dobbs' views. If that's true, it would also help to show that people w/an agenda could be trying to influence viewers' views on this subject.

[countryjake]

67. That fascist pig is exactly where it's coming from!

He's been squealing about it all week long and back when we had the Hispanic Freedom rides, the flag was the FIRST thing he began railing on about. He has done more to whip up this xenophobic frenzy than any other capitalist bastard in this country...the Republicans I know spew his garbage just as ferverently as they do Limbaugh and O'Reilly.

When somebody is foaming spittle into your face and quoting that somabich, you know his propaganda is working!

[Marie26]

68. I sort of figured. sigh. nt

[doublethink]

71. Funny you should ask that ......

was working on the computer today with Dobbs on in the background, and I thought I heard him refer to the flag issue but I didn't really catch the details. Just the images of the American Flag pictures during the recent protests went through my head, and I just shook my head and kept working. Think I turned the tube off about then and went back to work. I do think the Xenophobia flying about on this issue is an underlying personal problem on the part of those displaying it openly. Steming from the lack of actual contact with immigrants, or other races in general in real life on the part of these people. But yea it could be getting fueled by the media too .... just speculation. Peace. :)

[countryjake]

75. I was writing letters to his show last year about his ranting...

about people's flags. Earlier this month when there were 150,000 marching in Downtown Chicago to protest that Republican bill (around the 8th or 9th, can't remember the exact date), after the one second worth of footage was shown on his show, he then explained that they were angry with Sensenbrenner's "Border Security/Anti-Terrorism/Immigration Reform" (emphasis HIS) and his only other comment was, "Why the Mexican flag?"

Just his talking point to keep people directing their anger in the wrong direction!

[Marie26]

64. And that quote again rears its ugly head.

Wonder where you heard it? Roosevelt was a eugenicist & believed that certain races were inferior & part of the "White Man's Burden". I'm not sure we should be taking his ideas on immigration to heart.

The quote was actually discussed in-depth on another DU thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=746695

[Critters2]

44. Some American, many Mexican

Those Mexican flags must make Karl and the Repugs mighty happy!

[doublethink]

55. Look I gotta run some errands now .....

but I'll be back .... :evilgrin: ...... I saw a few of your responses on this thread too ...... http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x768293

anyway I have a question for you .... why do you have an avatar image of Iowa's flag? Think about it. Peace. :)

[Critters2]

57. Iowa isn't a foreign nation

Think about it

[hunter]

61. It sure feels like that whenever I've visited Iowa...

I mean where do they hide all the sorts of people I'm used to?

Not that I've got anything against Iowa... Some of my best friends are from Iowa.

Um, no they're not. But Captain Kirk is from Iowa, so it can't be bad.

[Critters2]

78. They're "hiding" all those people in the factory farms and

slaughter houses, and paying them less than minimum wages so that all the peopl you know can have cheap meat and eggs.

Maybe you don't think of Iowa as part of America, but I'll bet you eat plenty of cheap meat from Iowa.

[hunter]

86. I haven't been to Iowa for about fifteen years

I take it the factory farms are using immigrant labor now?

[Critters2]

90. Are you serious?!!

Smithfield/IBP couldn't function without cheap immigrant labor! At least not the way they do now. Even the world's largest kosher packing plant--AgriProcessors in Postville, IA--uses immigrant labor. Why do you think you're meat is so cheap?!

[AzDar]

79. My Gramps (in his late 90's) said of the protest photos on t.v....

"We'd call that a Goddamned invasion".

[OzarkDem]

58. I agree with you

the current lack of immigration policy is no longer sustainable.

[warrens]

60. What are you gonna do, machine gun them at the border?

We're an immigrant magnet, and they're going to come here no matter what. The issue is finding a way to keep it manageable, which probably means some sort of accelerated immigration program, rather than the totally dysfunctional one we have now, where those hoping to come over legally wait for months or years to get a simple temporary work visa.

Alternatively, we could give them back Texas, New Mexico, California and Arizona. Just a thought.

[Marie26]

66. I have actually seen people advocate this on DU. nt

[fujiyama]

72. Good post

Your tone is mostly reasonable and rational.

And I agree in some ways, but not completely. I agree that this is an issue we have to face and I don't think it sets a good precedent to offer general amnesty to those that broke the law. Still, I am even more disgusted with the Sensenbrenner plan, which locks people up crowding our prisons, punishes asylum seekers, and religious institutions that helps illegal immigrants.

The Kennedy/McCain bill seems a bit better than either the Bush slave wage "guest worker" programs, or the "lock 'em up, close the borders" ass hole plan. It's not perfect though, and one thing I'm unsure, is while the plan does say that they will have to wait behind legal immigrants, how will this work? There are legal immigrants entering often, and I don't think any illegal immigrant should have a chance for permanent residency (green card) before someone that has followed the rules in coming here legitimately.

[Alcibiades]

83. Not sure

I don't think the plan alters the current system of awarding permanent residency. I'm also not sure what they mean by the meme that illegal immigrants should not be given the chance to "jump ahead" of legal immigrants.

What I think is meant is that, in contrast to a blanket amnesty, the citizenship process would be just as hard (and it is hard, my stepmom went through it) for illegals who are already here as it is for legal immigrants, i.e. same residency requirements, etc.

One thing I don't like about our current policy is that it punishes people who do go through the process legally. The INS can come down on you like a ton of bricks for some technicality, yet they make no effort to go after those who have never registered into the system at all.

[countryjake]

92. Anyone who snuck in will be fined and knocked back to the end of the line.

They will NOT be given any chances ahead of those who went thru the process legitimately. All the same red-tape; investigation of work-histories and any criminal background either here or in their country of origin will be done.

[napi21]

73. For the most part you're right. We were considering moving to

Canada. I've gotton so disgusted with the US and the policies for the last 20 years! Yes, I liked Clinton, but I'm still pissed at him for signing NAFTA!

Anyway, I found out that we CAN'T move to Canada. They don't WANT us! We're too old.

I know I can't move to Italy, because my son works there for a US Company, and Italy has VERY strict immigration laws, AND if a foreighner does manage to WORK there, they cannot own real estate or any business!

I can't blame the illegals. People everywhere try to get away with a little more they they're permitted to! Even kids do that!

I say, arrest the employers! I don't think fines will work because, most of the time, the fines are so low in comparrison to what the employer saves by hiring, and exloiting, illegals, the owners don't care! I will tell you though, NONE OF THEN WANT TO GO TO JAIL!!!!

I doubt it would take more than 2 or 3 high profile cases to stop hiring of illegals!

No jobs! No reason to cross the border illegaly either!

[Critters2]

81. I looked into moving to Canada too,

and also found a bunch of legal hurdles to doing so. Of course, you and I were looking into doing it legally. Those being dicussed in this thread have no such compunction.

[Alcibiades]

85. Try the UK

I think they will allow anyone in who has 1 million pounds to invest in the British economy. All you have to do is go out and earn 1 million pounds, if you don't have it already.

If you don't have 1 million pounds, I suggest Ireland, Eastern Europe or South America.

[The Straight Story]

84. It's simple really. Annex Mexico, make it 51st state.

Then we can flood down to mexico, buy up land cheap for development, build some factories there and casinos, and inject some diversity into their state. They obviously cannot do so alone, which is why people are flocking here in the millions.

When we are done there we can move south again and snatch us up another state. Canada would be nice as well. A little too cold for my tastes though.

Of course, the people there could just take over their government and use ours as a template and make their land flourish, but then, we didn't do that - we left the ass holes in england and came over here to start a new life. Yet in the end we still rebelled against them and fought them.

I don't know a solution, just seems to me instead of going to a new land it might behoove one to try and make their land like they want it instead of fleeing somewhere else. It would not only help them but the millions of others who want the same thing.

Get all those protestors to march on capital of mexico, get some real reforms there. Git-r-done :)

But seriously, it is a complex issue - even though the ideas for solutions are generally sound (shut down the borders, round em up, let em all stay and be citizens, etc and so on) america is a big tent and no issue will be easily solved, the only thing that seems to be near across the board is a sense of general nationalism and sovernity. We have our country we fought and died for, we made laws, please respect them when coming here.

[hunter]

88. My Prediction: Mexico will annex the United States.

All those people who survived the Great Depression are slowly fading away. In the United States we have largely forgotten how to survive in a broken economy. For the most part Mexicans still have that knowledge.

:yoiks:

[The Straight Story]

89. Yeah they survive by coming here :) (nt)

[countryjake]

91. Here's what they face when they marched down there...

I assume this was NAFTA protest:


The ‘Granaderos” wait for the campesino protest to arrive at Los Pinos, President Fox’s home in Mexico city.

[pat_k]

87. Could you get behind this approach?

The first step in finding a solution that serves the common good on immigration (or anything else for that matter) is to look at the problem from a new perspective -- one that is grounded in some basic truths and moral principles.

I've taken a stab at outlining such an approach and would appreciate your thoughts on it.

Controlling our borders isn't really about control; it's about values

"Controlling our borders" means more than erecting barriers or patrolling. Controlling our borders is about making a commitment to act in a manner that is consistent with our values.

When we set employment standards we are expressing our values. Those standards reflect our belief that all human beings have a right to be treated fairly.

As long as we allow ANY workers to be exploited within our borders, we disgrace ourselves. As long as we turn a blind eye to the violations committed by people who enter illegally or remain after their visa expires, we demonstrate hypocrisy.

Guest worker programs have a place, but too often; such programs have been used to give employers a ticket to pay substandard wages and subject workers to unsafe conditions. We cannot tolerate programs that set different standards for "guests."

To be consistent with American values, we need to "just say no" to the exploitation workers -- documented or not. Continuing to permit predatory employers to operate within our borders will only drive more and more of Us and "Them" into poverty.

Controlling our borders with the stroke of a pen

Building a wall takes time. We don't need to wait. We can effectively control immigration with the stroke of a pen by passing legislation that includes two basic elements:

• Going after predatory employers.


• Offering a path to citizenship for whistleblowers and their families.

Specifically:

• Expand the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) to cover every business and individual employer, whether they employ documented or undocumented workers.
  Conditions and terms of employment must meet FLSA and safety requirements for any wage earner who meets the criteria that would require reporting under IRS rules (e.g, the IRS threshold this year is $1500 for most of work).


• Criminalize predatory employment practices.
  Predatory employers who are violating FLSA, violating OSHA standards, and evading taxes must be subject to prosecution and mandatory prison time.


• Whistleblower immigration amnesty.
  Clear processes for workers to report predatory employers and maintain anonymity throughout the course of investigation. Whistleblowers who are undocumented (whether an individual or a group) are offered a path to citizenship.


• Increase resources and create special units as required
  Affected agencies would include the Dept of Labor Wage and Hour Division, Dept of Justice, OSHA, IRS, and INS. The Wage and Hour Division is probably the logical agency to oversee the handling of charges against predatory employers, including preliminary investigation, referral to Justice for investigation and prosecution, referral to IRS, and coordination with INS to process undocumented whistleblowers and other undocumented workers.

Making implicit costs explicit

The harmful effects of supporting an underground economy are costly to the nation. When we "just say no" to the exploitation workers, some implicit costs will be made explicit. Americans have a choice. We can invest our tax dollars to our common benefit, or bear the costs -- both moral and monetary -- of exploiting other human beings.

If we choose make predatory employers the prime target, we can ensure the survival of vital "underground economy" sectors by providing transitional supports. We can offset increased costs of goods or services to the working class through tax credits. (Should be part of shifting the costs of citizenship from those who benefit the least from our common infrastructure to those who benefit the most.)

Radically changing the rules of the game

If predatory employers faced serious penalties, and the undocumented workers they are exploiting benefited from blowing the whistle, we would significantly increase the risk of exploiting workers.

The threat of exposure and prosecution alone will be sufficient for many to revamp their operations. In some sectors, the predators may simply move operations offshore. In others, predators may be forced out of business. As noted above, it may serve the public interest to provide transition assistance or start up assistance for replacement businesses.

Undoubtedly, a significant percent of undocumented workers would continue to evade detection, but employers would be far less likely to exploit them. If the workers are making a fair wage, the "race to the bottom" has a lower limit and the negative effect on wages is reduced.

We have a right enforce immigration law and deport violators

There are situations in which our interests are best served by providing an alternative to deportation. Nevertheless, if it does not serve a public interest to provide an alternative we should not hesitate to deport those who violate immigration laws.

We have a right to enforce our immigration laws. When we shift our focus to predatory employers, we are not forfeiting that right.

Offering legal status to whistleblowers serves us in two vital ways -- it deters predatory employers and it gives authorities vital resources "on the ground" who are motivated to expose those who are not deterred.

Targeting predatory employers creates a new class of unemployable undocumented workers If we do not institute a program that offers an opportunity to achieve legal (employable) status to those who are displaced, the deportation and support costs are likely to rise to intolerable levels.

If we decide that minimizing competition for jobs is worth the costs associated with deportation, the number of families who are offered legal status could be limited by entering those who qualify a "lottery" of sorts. It may seem harsh to allow chance to determine who stays and who goes, but deportation must remain the default consequence of breaking our immigration laws.

First things first

We can't begin to make progress until we impeach Bush and Cheney and purge the new American fascists from our public institutions ((Impeachment First)). Only then can we effectively engage in the messy -- but democratic -- process of dealing with this and other critical problems.

Conclusion

Our underground economy makes the United States very attractive to people who are struggling to survive in their own countries. We can change the dynamics right now and virtually eliminate the underground economy, and in the process, minimize the incentive to enter this country unlawfully.

Saying no to the exploitation of workers is central to controlling our borders. Radically changing the rules of the game makes other aspects of controlling immigration more manageable, but it does not eliminate the need for them. We still need to do a better job of tracking the foreign nationals who come here to work, study, or visit. We still need to make our border with Mexico as impenetrable as possible, while weighing the costs against the benefits.

We cannot continue to hypocritically turn a blind eye to violations of our immigration laws or tolerate the exploitation of workers within our borders. As is often the case, committing to enacting and enforcing laws that that reflect our values is not just the right thing to do, it ultimately serves the common good.

[savemefromdumbya]

93. The only way is to offer work permits and they can come and go

people must be ID'd for security reasons. Perhaps a liaison between countries re healthcare might be in order? Work permits can be stamped at the border and run security checks. If things work out for them they can apply for green card and citizenship whilst in the USA. I think it's pointless to put up barriers to them because they will come here illegally anyway! We don't want a Berlin wall situation!