A Question For The Level Headed On The Immigration Debate.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

I've seen all the threads on this issue lately, but haven't really engaged in them. I'm just not nearly as passionate about the issue as others in those threads and can see legitimacy to both sides of the issue. I have thought about it and still don't see enough glaring on either side of the argument that would sway me to passionately take up that stance. I also must admit due to my lack of passion on the issue that maybe I'm not as informed on the issue as I should be.

Having that said, here is where I'm at so far:

I can't say I don't want our porous borders sealed. National security is important.

I also can't say that a citizen of any country on earth shouldn't have the ability to live in any other country that they want to.

I can't say that I would condone immigrants already here illegally to all be deported asap.

I can't say it is fair that it is still so easy and popular for businesses to hire illegal workers which then has the potential to reduce jobs available to citizens and/or depress wages.

I can't say that if an immigrant has made it into our country illegally, that they shouldn't be able to look for any type of work that can help them survive while they're here.

I also can't say it is completely fair to others who are already here requiring work for the above to occur.

There's more, and that's just a sampling of where my mind's at. I'm not overly passionate about the issue and have some objective opinions on the situation, but also am split between the two arguments.

But this next question is the one I'd like more input on, as I don't know the facts of it. The question: Why do any immigrants that come here need to be illegal at all? What is the process for coming here legitimately? Why go around that process? If a mexican citizen for example, wants to move to america, what does that person need to do? Who do they call and tell "Hey, I'm going to buy a house in America, just wanted to let you know"?

I guess what I don't get (and is maybe keeping me from forging better opinions) is why do they come illegally as opposed to legitimately? What does legitimately even mean?

Thanks for the input.

[ret5hd]

1. well, first...

a mexican citizen is already in america.

just a peeve of mine(not a pet one tho).

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

2. Maybe You'll Find The Following Helpful In Getting Over That Peeve:

A·mer·i·ca ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-mr-k)

1. The United States.
2. also the A·mer·i·cas (-kz). The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Definition 1 is obviously the one used in context of my OP, so see? No longer an issue. :)

[ret5hd]

3. well, at least i won't have to kill a pet, right?

[IselaB]

4. I think

Americans should stop focusing on the weakest, poorest, most desperate among us and pretending they are the source of our problems.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

6. Thanks For The Opinion That Had Nothing To Do With The OP. But Do You

have any input on my actual question? Thanks! :hi:

[IselaB]

8. That's the extent of my contribution

[NoAmericanTaliban]

12. Welcome to DU

[NoAmericanTaliban]

5. All about supply & demand - not enough legal ways to get into US

to fulfill the demand for cheap labor. Immigration quotas were set years ago and are not realistic for today's economy. For the most part of US history there was open immigration - no quotas. The quotas were put into place to limit immigrants from certain parts of the world - i.e China. Just like most drug laws - quotas were initially used against non-white european immigrants so there is a racial element to them.

The reality is that they wouldn't be here is no one hired them. The real illegals are the ones who hire them & don't face any punitive recourse even though there are plenty of laws now on the books. The employers are getting off scotch free while paying no taxes or Social Security $$$. They are the real illegals.

America has always been a nation build on cheap labor from indentured servants - to slaves & now illegal immigrants & outsourcing. Consider the immigrants - insourcing. As they say - history repeats itself.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

7. Thanks For The Reply. See? There's One Thing I Missed.

Totally escaped me the concept of immigration quotas. How long does it take each year to reach that max do you know? Also, do you know how long the immigration process takes?

[NoAmericanTaliban]

11. Current laws & red tape are a barrier for those seeking to become citizens

A lot depends on what part of the world you are coming from, but the general consesus is that it can take years to become a US citizen, especially since 9/11. Here is a government link that has details on how immigration works - http://uscis.gov/graphics/index.htm

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

9. Coming to the U.S. legally is actually quite hard

You need to have either a very close family relationship (spouse, adult child, sibling, etc.), a valid asylum claim or a work visa.

I deal with work visas and marriages to U.S. citizens. Neither of these is (a) inexpensive or (b) quick. Work visas are primarily given to those who possess special skills, those who have'extraordinary ability' in the arts/science/athletics, those with college degrees, people who work for multinational companies, trainees/interns, students, performers, religious workers, certain investors, media, diplomatic personnel, citizens of countries with certain treaties with the U.S. There are visa categories for people employed in health fields (i.e. nurses) and a small percentage of 'agricultural worker' visas (I don't deal with these, so I can't say).

I deal primarily with the H, L, E, O, P, TN (NAFTA visa for Canadians and Mexicans working in selected occupations) visas. The process is expensive. The immigration laws favor people with special skills, higher education or extraordinary ability.

'Legitimately' coming to the U.S. means having permission to remain here temporarily or indefinitely by means of a visa or permanent residence. It also means having been inspected by an Immigration Officer before entering the U.S. at a border crossing, an airport or other port of entry.

An illegal immigrant is also one who has overstayed a visa (visas are temporary), although we technically refer to these cases as 'out of status' aliens. They are not illegal, because they were inspected, but they are 'out of status' because their permission to be in the U.S. (the visa) is no longer valid.

I can honestly see how a person who is not skilled, who does not have an education and who is very poor does not stand a chance of making it into the U.S. legally and instead prefers to enter illegally. However, an illegal entry means, in the way the laws are currently written, living a life in secrecy and perhaps condemning your children to the same, with always the thought of being deported. Add to that the fact that social security cards are no longer given to just anyone (you need to prove now that you are allowed to remain in the U.S. with a visa or green card), causing many illegal aliens to purchase fraudulent or stolen cards and other documents, and it is easy to see how difficult it is to break free of this 'illegal' circle.

There are more and more instances of children of illegal immigrants who came to the U.S. when they were barely born and who are completely assimilated to U.S. culture and language, seeking to enter college and finding out that because of their immigration status they cannot continue their education.

Let me also say that if someone enters the U.S. illegally, there is very little (almost nothing, in fact) that can be done to rectify that status. An illegal entry is a bar to most immigration benefits (unless you can prove persecution, etc.).

Moreover, if an illegal alien returns to his/her home country, he or she is banned from the U.S. for 3 to 10 years, depending on how long he/she was in the U.S. illegally (this is also true of people who overstay their visas), which is why many are afraid of going back.

I am very conflicted about illegal immigration. The ones I know work very hard, knowing that they have to accept whatever working conditions and pay come along, fearing 'la migra' and their employers treating them as virtual slaves.

However, as a legal immigrant myself who works with legal immigrants, I am personally aware of how long and expensive the legal process is and I feel that the U.S. government needs to deal with the backlogs for legal immigrants before granting benefits to those who cannot or did not make it in the U.S. legally.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

10. Thanks For All Of That! Two Quick Follow Ups If I May:

What is the average cost? What is the average turnaround time?

I very much appreciate your informative reply above. :)

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

13. It depends on what you want

Say you're the run of the mill software engineer. You'll probably come in with an H-1B, which is valid for a maximum of 6 years. Your company will need to pay the attorney fees (they range anywhere from $2K to $10K) and the filing fees which range from $940 to $1690 (depending on size of company), plus a mandated fee of $500 (so-called Fraud Prevention and Detection fee). These must be paid by the employer. Then, if you want to get the case adjudicated in 15 days by USCIS, you'll need another $1000 filing fee for premium processing (expedited). Then, assuming the case gets approved, the alien must apply for the visa at a U.S. consulate abroad.

Assuming our software engineer is doing a good job, the company may want to 'sponsor' him for a green card. Then, the labor certification process (quite complex and time consuming for the company) begins. I will not get into the minutiae of the process, only to say it's quite involved and the alien has nothing to do with this; it's mostly the company that works on this. There are, of course, legal fees of around $5K to $10K or more. Assuming the labor certification is approved (we are probably now on year 4 of the software engineer's maximum 6 year H-1B stay), then the employer must file the Immigrant Visa Petition (I-140) which basically puts the alien into a big-ass long waiting list and, god forbid, if the software engineer is from India or China or the Philippines, he has to wait even longer. However, we can now file for the permanent residence at the same time as the Immigrant Visa Petition, so at least his spouse and children can travel and work while the PR application is pending. Now, we are assuming he stays with the same company through this time, but most people do change employers and don't start the labor certification process until they have little time left on their H-1B visas (which can be extended under specific conditions for the 7th or even 8th year). Of course, there are filing and legal fees for all these, so fee-wise you can budget about $20K or more (likely more).

This is for an H-1B, which is a fairly common visa, but procedures are different for other visa categories.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

14. How Bout For Just A Family That Picks Up And Just Says "Hey, Let's Move To

America!"

No H-1B engineering anything, just a family that says they want to move here. Just to be able to cross the border and legally enter our country and have an opportunity to seek work, what would that process be and how long does it take? I'm not talking about full citizenship or anything, just what it takes to come through the borders legally and able to seek work legally.

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

15. Unfortunately,

unless someone qualifies for a work visa or has a close relationship with a U.S. citizen (sibling, parent, adult child, spouse), there is nothing that family can do. In other words, you need to have a visa (or other status) to enter the U.S. legally. The only thing I can see would be if this family had filed an asylum or persecution claim or those people from countries that have TPS (Temporary Protected Status). Otherwise, this family has no way to enter the U.S. legally.