When are the Democrats in Congress going to get smart about immigration???

[Zen Democrat]

This issue is a godsend to Democrats and they are wasting it -- because there is a correct solution to this problem, and that is to cut off the demand. Laws should be enforced and strengthened to mandate that American businesses must hire workers at a decent wage and pay benefits. Maybe some enterprises would go out of business, but nobody should profit from using cheap labor illegally.

This is a win-win because Americans of Hispanic descent are suffering like everyone else with jobs going to undocumented workers at a substantially lower wage. I happen to know of a case where a young lady, undocumented, worked at a Mexican restaurant for 10-12 hours a day, 7 days a week, and was paid $100 a week for nearly two years. She married an American citizen, got a green card, asked for more money, and was fired.

The crime in this whole affair is the exploitation of cheap labor -- and Democrats should make this the focus of their immigration policy. It's something that would resonate with all voters.

[babylonsister]

1. Everyone who knows anyone

who is an "illegal alien" (a term I hate with a passion, similar to Homeland Security) has a different viewpoint depending on the situation they're familiar with. I'm still trying to figure out the Dem's stance.

[BlueManDude]

2. you're right it's a great opportunity for Dems n/t

[Minnesota Libra]

3. FIRST Democrats need to close the borders and then FINE anyone...........

......and everyone (corporations or mom-and-pop) for hiring illegal aliens. Democrats need to get REALLY serious and put some teeth in the laws by creating laws just like the drug laws - confiscate property - and all assets for hiring or housing illegal aliens from anywhere in the world.

How does Mexico feel about American workers?

American Illegals Marching on Mexico City
http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/viewArticle.asp?articleID=7324

[Zen Democrat]

5. The "build a wall" thing just scares the crap out of me.

Because I'm not sure if building a wall would be to keep them out, or to keep us in. Constructing a 21st Century Iron Curtain at American borders is just insane.

[babylonsister]

6. Thank You. It sounds crazy to me also.

The US is not Germany or China or Israel. Their walls sounds nuts enough. We build a wall around MX, what about Canada? It's madness!

[Minnesota Libra]

8. Who said anything about a wall? I said close the borders and.........

.....we could even put some of our citizens to work guarding those borders.


This is what they think of Ameicans
http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/viewArticle.asp?articleID=7324

[babylonsister]

13. Google it. Lots of talk of walls being built between MX and US. nt

[Zen Democrat]

14. There's way too much border for that. Way too much.

[Kansas Wyatt]

12. Yet Democrats fail to understand why they are losing

Votes from working people, when the blue collar worker sees Democrats thinking it is perfectly okay to flood his job market with cheap illegal workers, undercut his wages, and eliminate his future of earning a living like his father did and his grandfather did, as long as the illegal immigrant worker can work.

Does the Democratic Party represent working class citizens or illegal immigrant workers?:shrug:

Blue collar workers are watching who the Democratic Party is sticking up for on this issue, and they resent being driven out of jobs their fathers and grandfathers did, and they have tried to do, to provide for their families, but are now going to illegal workers for cheap slave wages.

Democratic Party, stop wondering why working class people vote against their best interests, because working people are not seeing you standing up to the hiring of illegal workers flooding their labor market to drive their wages down.

[Deja Q]

15. I must agree.

This is not about "guest workers" or making more illegal workers into guest workers, in which case we may as well make illegal plants to smoke to smoke less illegal plants to smoke.

It's about exploitation and undercutting the value that brings legitimate immigrants to America in the first place while allowing a value for those who were here since birth...

Still, we've come full circle and now we're eating our own. And the Dems in power are going along for the ride. Understandable, being a career politician tends to make people forget why they're there, and such attitudes aren't restricted to just one political party.

[John Barrett]

25. Have You Read "Foxes In The Hen House"

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0743286510/ref=sib_dp_top_ex/002-7855956-3382438?%5Fencoding=UTF8&p=S00T#reader-page

I haven't read it yet but would like to, as it appears to addresses some of the issues about the Party that you mentioned and that I also believe are important.

Personally my belief is that the Democratic politicians playing the game on the illegal immigration issue are more interested in trying to get a new block of voters (Hispanic illegals) than protecting the interests of their existing constituency.

They are trading in the remainders of the old working class backbone constituency for a new one, which in the end will cost the Party big time in votes.

[QC]

22. Excellent post! n/t

[IsItJustMe]

4. The Dems lead with their heart and not their head. That simple.

[kurth]

9. And House Republicans will wave their bill in their reelection campaign

against "anti-American bleeding-heart liberals and Democrats" who refuse to enforce our immigration law and control our border, etc. etc.

Forget impeachment. Forget Iraq. This House bill - which will never become law - is their weapon.

[IsItJustMe]

26. From my understanding, alot of Dems in the house voted for it too.

[John Barrett]

11. Politicians

I can't speak for individuals in the Party....but imho politicians have only self interests, big egos and need for power. I don't buy the heart stuff when it comes to the politicians. Democratic politicians are generally several steps better than Repubs but neither group deserves accolades. There might be some exceptions out there but I'd need some serious proof to become a believer.

[peanutbrittle]

7. The republican argument to this that I have heard is.....

"But, but, but most of the employers I know are already paying more than minimum wage to these folks"

Too add they say "Latino's are buying up N. Orleans as we speak and the borders have been this way forever,,,there is no fix"

Just relaying what the average Shrub apologist believes right now.

[MazeRat7]

10. Unfortunately, I dont agree there is a "simple" solution to this....

For once if the dems are smart, they will formulate a plan that is comprehensive and actually has a chance to bring change. The problems the Dem plan must address are:

1) Fining employers for using illegals (good).... but how do you address the spike in consumer cost that will result when the higher wages are passed to consumers ? How do you sell asking Americans to pay much more for food, houses, etc.?

2) There has to be a foreign policy aspect to any solution. How do you couch that with Mexico and what will it look like ? If you close the borders completely (buy a Romulan force field for example) you still have the problems of #1 and #3 below.

3) How do you sell the loss of tax revenue (mostly sales tax) to communities that have illegals living in them if they leave ? A good plan will have some avenue for naturalization to help keep these communities from loss of operating funds. How do you sell naturalization to the fearful that think "they're taking my job" ?

No, there is not simple solution here and if the Dems are smart (which I doubt) they will get to work on a plan and in the mean time let the pugs camps of cheap labor and faux nationalism duke it out.

Just my $.02 anyway... I am sure someone will take issue :)

MZr7

[Zen Democrat]

18. There are simple solutions, just not EASY ones.

If our low prices are dependent on cheap labor with no benefits, then maybe the prices should rise. Think of the crap people buy that they don't need. It would be better to pay more for fruits and vegetables, and dresses and shirts, etc., rather than allow this human exploitation to continue. We outlawed child labor -- and the same arguments were given for continuing that monstrous practice.

No matter what, there will always be people sneaking into this country. But when Mexicans can make a decent wage in Mexico, they won't need to come here to feed their families. And when the Fantasy World I'm obviously living in materializes, American businesses profiting from cheap labor will then have to pay a living wage or close up shop. Vincente Fox is all for the guest worker program because the Mexican elite doesn't seem to be interested in providing good paying jobs for their people. And, to me, the guest worker program arguments are analogous to those used in the past to bust union strikes with scab labor.

[MazeRat7]

21. We're on the same page.... which reminds me of a quote .....

It was one of the old Blues guitar players that was ask why he played the same 12-bar blues progression over and over in every song... those progressions were so "simple".

His answer: Well son... just because somethin' is simple...don't make it easy. *wink.

MZr7

[doc03]

20. $.02 more cents

Americans don't seem to have much problem with the spike in energy and healthcare costs?

"You will lose the taxes mostly sales taxes paid by the illeagals". If leagal workers were on those jobs we would gain State and Federal taxes, SS, State compensation and unemplyment taxes paid by the employer. I can see it now 40 years from now the illeagals will be demanding their SS.


You dry up the demand for illeagal workers you don't need an Iron Curtain to keep them out.

[doc03]

16. Amen! That's exactly the stand Democrats should make

I have just been amazed at some of the posts I have seen on this subject. I have tried to bring this up many times and there are some that automatically pull the racist card. I read these posts that Americans won't take the jobs and if you are against employers hiring illegals you are automatically a racist. Hasn't anyone ever heard the word Capitalism that the Republicans like to spout off about, it's simple, if you can't find someone to work for $10 an hour you pay $11 or $12 whatever it takes to get workers. The Republicans are against a living or even minimum wage saying it artificially inflates wages and the battle cry is always (let the free market determine wages). I suggest we offer some illegals $10000 a year to be a Senator or Congressman that would save us lots of tax money. This is a winner for us 70% of the American people want illegal immigration stopped, if you go after the employers that are hiring them you don't need a wall on the border. The people that are here illegally now, give them 6 months to register for a work visa, after that if you find someone working without one you slap the employer with a $100000 fine and deport the worker. If they register and play by the rules let them become Citizens.

[sandnsea]

17. Obviously nobody has bothered to find out what Democrats are proposing

Otherwise people posting in this thread would know that the McCain-Kennedy bill already covers all of this. We lose because our own people are clueless and don't know how to do anything but bitch, that's why we lose.

[Zen Democrat]

23. Yeah. They're talking about a guest worker program. Just like Bush.

And I don't think that should be the focus, now or ever. We've got so many un- and under- employed people in this country whose wages are dragged down because of companies BRINGING IN workers from Mexico, Central and South America. It's an industry. I'm not critical of poor people doing whatever they can to feed their families - but this shame should be on the oil-rich Mexican government.

[sandnsea]

27. It is not just like Bush

Of course, I blame stupid Democrats like Reid for calling it the same when it's not. Bush just wants a revolving door of workers, send them home when they're used up. The path to earned legalisation is a key difference of the McCain-Kennedy bill, it prevents the exploitation because they will be able to exercise their rights. It also contains all the other provisions of real punishment of employers, double border security, etc. so this will have a chance to work. Now, if we could turn our attention to these corporations exploiting people overseas, we might be able to improve their living conditions so they won't want to come here. And improve their wages so they will be able to buy products we sell too, if we had a government that cared about investing in new technologies so we had something to sell anyway.

[Cocoa]

19. McCain-Kennedy addresses those concerns

and it also addresses the problem with the status of illegal immigrants, which is important too. This is not easy, that's for sure.

[standup]

24. Paul Krugman: Illegal immigrants damage our economy

New York Times / March 27, 2006
North of the Border
By Paul Krugman

... I'm instinctively, emotionally pro-immigration. But a review of serious, nonpartisan research reveals some uncomfortable facts about the economics of modern immigration, and immigration from Mexico in particular. First, the net benefits to the U.S. economy from immigration, aside from the large gains to the immigrants themselves, are small. Realistic estimates suggest that immigration since 1980 has raised the total income of native-born Americans by no more than a fraction of 1 percent.

Second, while immigration may have raised overall income slightly, many of the worst-off native-born Americans are hurt by immigration - especially immigration from Mexico. Because Mexican immigrants have much less education than the average U.S. worker, they increase the supply of less-skilled labor, driving down the wages of the worst-paid Americans. The most authoritative recent study of this effect, by George Borjas and Lawrence Katz of Harvard, estimates that U.S. high school dropouts would earn as much as 8 percent more if it weren't for Mexican immigration. That's why it's intellectually dishonest to say, as President Bush does, that immigrants do "jobs that Americans will not do." The willingness of Americans to do a job depends on how much that job pays - and the reason some jobs pay too little to attract native-born Americans is competition from poorly paid immigrants.

Finally, modern America is a welfare state, even if our social safety net has more holes in it than it should - and low-skill immigrants threaten to unravel that safety net. Basic decency requires that we provide immigrants, once they're here, with essential health care, education for their children, and more. Unfortunately, low-skill immigrants don't pay enough taxes to cover the cost of the benefits they receive. Worse yet, immigration penalizes governments that act humanely. Immigrants are a much more serious fiscal problem in California than in Texas, which treats the poor and unlucky harshly, regardless of where they were born...

Realistically, we'll need to reduce the inflow of low-skill immigrants. Mainly that means better controls on illegal immigration...

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/032706O.shtml