Rant: Protesters NOT winning me over...

[Ioo]

You see this shit right here...




Look I am glad that there are all types of people here in the US, but I will be damned if you are going to come over here and do this type of shit. If you want to hoste the flag of Mexico over a US PUBLIC school then you should go back to Mexico. I am sorry people, but I will not have my nation so disrespected as this crap here. I get plenty of America bashing from the current administration.

No tengo ninguna edición con compatriotas que vienen de lugares hispánicos. But if this is the type of shit you are going to do to make me side with you then you can stick it.

Should we streamline the INS, hell yes, it is a disaster
Should we welcome those that want to come here, Yes we should, all people.
Should we throw open the doors and reward illegal Actions NO!!!

I saw this set of images from yesterday and I almost cried. How dare you come to the my soil, and now YOUR soil if you have legally, and do this.

As much as I hate to say it, this is where me and the left part company. YOU WILL NOT raise a flag, any flag over the US flag on US soil.



DAMN IT I HATE WHEN I AM ON THE SAME SIDE AS RIGHT WING NUTS LIKE MICHELLE MALKIN.

Sorry for the rant, and sorry for not towing the party line, but this is just plan sick!!!

[Starbucks Anarchist]

1. ...

:popcorn:

[Ioo]

4. I Agree, I put my flame suit on...

I have worn the flag on a military uniform, to see this makes me sick

[Starbucks Anarchist]

9. Hey, I agree with you.

It's just that this is gonna cause some reactions.

BTW, thanks for your service. :patriot:

[MyNameGoesHere]

249. I have served also

and it makes me feel wonderful that someone actually exercises their right to protest and make you feel uncomfortable. It's a flag, i served to protect the idea behind that flag not the nationalist feelings it invokes. Pride, patriotism, nationalism, and fear are very powerful. But never as powerful as what our ideals and principles are. To hell with the flag, it's made of cloth. America should be made of stronger fabric.

[slybacon9]

345. Amen to that... and add these are HIGH SCHOOL kids. i admire their passion

and i miss those days.

it's all going to be okay... calmate.

[formernaderite]

421. probably why I hate flags period and what they stand for period..

they bring out all that ueber nationalistic shit in people. I refuse to put flag stamps on any mail I send, and find it offensive when people use flag stamps.

[file83]

412. I've got my FIRE SUIT on and I'm ready to GO IN....(pic)

[YouthInAsia]

468. LMAO

[Thtwudbeme]

2. I understand where you are coming from....kind of.

However, you need to let go of the idea that this is somehow "your" country.

The earth doesn't belong to any of us, really.

Stephanie

[Ioo]

22. Steph I think you are WRONG...

While I am on it, and while I have fought for it, while I pay for it, it is mine. Look I am a pagan and understand the earth. I also understand that the USA has given me the greatest life of anyone on earth. I will not take that lightly. When I die, I hope I left the earth a better place, but I am not going to allow anyone to shit on my soil.

[dogday]

50. Are we talking about the same USA that has killed

so many Iraqis, it will take decades to discover how many? Apparently we think more than just the USA belongs to us.... We took Texas, California and other land from the Mexicans, we are taking Iraq from the Iraqis.... Don't hand me this.. In Viet Nam, we certainly left that a better place right?


I love America, but this attitude that everything we do is right and just is not true anymore, might of been at one time, but not anymore.... The illegal immigrant situation should not of been allowed to continue for decades and then one day we say ok, never mind how long we allowed, we don't anymore... By legal definitions, that does constitute as acceptance and we have been accepting this situation for a long long time...

On Edit: Ask yourself how many of these illegals have also fought for this country... Quite a few....

[Ioo]

67. We won Mexico and Texas...

They gave it to us, Spanish American war, I am from Texas, we study it...

They took it from the natives, as did we. We shelled out 20 million for LA and the land it it's back yard. We have a very tangled history, but I am here today. right now...

I own a chunk of land in WV, My house is on it. I plant trees and make sure I do right by the land. I will leave it better than when I got there...

I CAN NOT, and WILL NOT lay claim to Iraq or others. I am very vocal about the cost of this war in lives... So why can not be proud of being American?

[dogday]

85. We won it? I grew up in Texas and I remember

reading and studying the war and we did not win without a fight.. Remember the Alamo? BTW, I still live in this state and I grew up with these people, they are good people.

Nobody is saying don't be proud to be an American, in this day and time, it is not easy to do with all the shit we have done to others and our own...

As long as America invades Iraq and other countries, you have no choice but to acknowledge it, like it or not... it is still America, you can't pick and choose....

[Garbo 2004]

338. Spanish American war, 1898. Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, 1848

ended the war between the US and Mexico. Mexico had been independent from Spain since 1821. http://www.loc.gov/rr/hispanic/ghtreaty/

Might want to brush up on your history if you're going to cite your knowledge of it.

[Bridget Burke]

500. Nope, Santa Ana bargained off half of Mexico after the Mexican War.

The Spanish American war was Teddy Roosevelt charging up San Juan hill. I went to school in Texas, too.

Be as proud of being an American as you like. But other good Americans don't choose to worship a piece of fabric. It's nice that you are a property owner. But you don't "own" the whole country.

[Critters2]

325. Hey, about that...

I was thinking about this ongoing crap about California and Texas and Arizona and New Mexico really belonging to Mexico. Here's my response...let Mexico have 'em. I don't mind, really. Let Mexico mismanage those places as it does its own nation. No problem with me. If we get to keep all the former Louisiana Purchase, The Northwest Ordinance Territories, and the Original 13, Mexico can have the rest of it. BUT the deal MUST include those who keep insisting that's all Mexico NOT coming further north. None of these lands were ever Mexico. So, if that's the issue, take all that former-Mexico land. But stay there.

Why do I think that's not what they really want?

[coalition_unwilling]

348. What do you mean "we," white man? (eom)

[Critters2]

353. I mean, those of us who don't live in areas Mexico is apparently claiming

My family has never lived south of north Kentucky. You're welcome to the southwest. I don't know what you'll do for water, but not my problem.

[coalition_unwilling]

355. Actually, I'm a gringo transplant to LA from Wisconsin and Missouri.

What will we do for water? Hmm, the first thing we'll do is shut down the decadent Las Vegas :) Next, we'll ration water to all single family homes owned by gringos :) Finally, we will drink lots of Tecate and Corona :)

[Critters2]

358. Again, not my problem!

You do whatever makes you feel good. Just remember, you can't even consider using Great Lakes water. I hope you're happy with your good, ethical Mexican government, too.

[coalition_unwilling]

362. Once we have Disneyland, all our problems

will vanish :) Jesus, if He knew how hard these Mexicans work every day, would surely intervene on their behalf. (That is, if He exists.)

[Critters2]

363. I've never been to Disneyland, so I won't miss it

It's all yours. And hard work isn't the issue for me, a decent wage and obeying the law is. I'm old-fashioned that way.

[coalition_unwilling]

519. By "obeying the law," I assume you're referring to crossing the border?

Might I remind you that borders are not sacred entities given by some God sitting on high. In the case of our Southern border, its lines currently reflect the desire of Southern slaveholders to have room to expand slavery (among other things).

The point is, what is more important to you: some arbitrary border whose geographic features serve capitalist imperialism and not the working class or people who exemplify the virtue of hard work to support their families?

[Name removed]

554. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[huskerlaw]

403. If we do that

can we keep idiots from Iowa from visiting?

:eyes:

[Critters2]

408. There are no idiots in Iowa

They're all in California.

[huskerlaw]

410. Hmm..yeah...

cuz cutting off half the country and sending it to Mexico was a really intelligent statement.

I grew up next to Iowa. I know better.

:hi:

[Critters2]

418. I'm just giving the peopel what they want

I've been reading for days how California and the Southwest are truly, rightly, Mexico's land. I'm just sayin' "Okay. Here ya go."

Always willing to oblige. They want California, I say they should have it!!

[huskerlaw]

424. I don't know what you've been reading

but I assure you that the protestors here in LA aren't asking for California to become part of Mexico. Quite the opposite, actually. They came to the United States for a reason...namely that they no longer wanted to live in Mexico.

What they're protesting is a Congressional bill that would rip their families apart and send their parents BACK to Mexico.

If you can show me a reputable source that says that the protestors are fighting to reunite California with Mexico, I'll happily read it and we can continue our discussion from there. But given what I've seen and heard from here, nobody's asking to annex California...therefore, your comment made zero sense.

[Critters2]

438. I've read yhis crap in several posts here on DU

"California is really part of Mexico" It's a surprisingly common refrain in these threads. And again I say, "That's fine with me. Let's make it official!"

[huskerlaw]

470. Well, whatever...

that's not what the protest is about, so making that comment in a thread about the protestors is rather irrelevant.

It's also highly reminiscent of Bushbots telling liberals to move to Canada. Ignorant and completely unhelpful.

[Warren DeMontague]

464. We provide 90% of the country's produce. We're the eighth largest

economy in the WORLD. At 33 Million People, we are by FAR the most populous state, even though neither party gives us our due in the primary process, and the United States Senate, in particular, grossly under-represents us in terms of power over the Federal Government-- since our 33 Million People control the same 1/50th slice of the US Senate as the 400,000 people in Wyoming do.

And, Gropenator notwithstanding, our politics are far less fucked up than most of the rest of this country's.

Frankly, at this point, I think maybe we should tell both Mexico AND the US to fuck off, and hoist up the Bear Republic flag again. You need us WAAAAAAY more than we need you.

[Critters2]

531. That'd be fine with me

You've got that large economy because you're trading with the rest of us. Besides, you rightly belong to Mexico, according to many DUers.

[Kailassa]

It's funny that you put it that way, Ioo.

Because shitting on the soil, in the long run, makes the earth much better.

Just as sharing our countries with those from other cultures enriches our environments in so many ways.

As for living in the USA giving you the greatest life of anyone on Earth, you have no idea what sort of lives people have in other places. Not everyone in the world is happy, not even in the great USofA, but there are happy people all over the world, and many will have experienced wonderful things you've never even imagined.

Personally, if I had to leave Australia for another country, I'd be very sad to go, and if I had to name the 12 countries I'd most prefer to move to, America would not be on the list.

[Name removed]

307. Deleted message

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[GeorgeGist]

480. Specious Reasoning...

is your credo, eh?

[Name removed]

548. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[crispini]

24. It's a tribal thing. It's very, very human.

And very understandable. We almost ALL do it.

[Thtwudbeme]

31. I know. I was kind of hoping that we could emotionally outgrow that need

to cling to the land as "ours," at some point. It's not going to happen in my lifetime.

Oh well.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

49. I think it is hard-wired into us by evolution

I agree with the OP. Removing the American flag and replacing it with the flag of another country is not cool.

[mondo joe]

78. Territory is not an emotional issue, but a neccesity.

Life for us animals is about competing for resources.

If you don't think so, PM me your address. I can try to arrange for some people to live in your home and eat your food.

[KittyWampus]

152. We are highly evolved humans who can grasp there's enough for all

and that Nature provides for everyone. And when it comes to scarcity of resources amongst humans it's mainly a disfunction of our means of distribution. The Zero-Sum mentality is not helpful or indicitive of the Big Picture.

However, I am not one of those DU'ers who fails to understand the need for borders. Borders and Containment are Universal Principles. On an Ideal level we can say there is "One Earth and Human Family" but in practical matters, we break down into smaller groups. Perhaps the problem is holding those two levels of human interaction in our minds at the same time. IMO, they are not exclusionary.

And as for having people living in my house and eating my food- I own a bed and breakfast. People do live in my house and eat my food... in exchange for money. Or friends come and visit. And we also welcomed a stranger displaced from New Orleans and let him stay here for free.

So borders and fences are in the Universal scheme... but they are artifical constructs. And even as we erect fences and borders, we must also set rules of engagement. Rules that actually work to the benefit of all involved.

[mondo joe]

166. Even when there's enough for all we still need territory and we still need

to manage our resources.

You say you run a B&B. But you also say you manage your borders - you control access.

If you really believe what you say, take down your borders and let OTHERS decide who will stay in your B&B and eat.

But since you also don't believe in evolution I don't hold out much hope for you understanding this.

[KittyWampus]

196. You misread my post completely. I agree with you up til you say

the need for borders is predicated by lack of resources.

Life and Nature do NOT operate soley on a zero-sum basis. Humans may choose to, but that is a less evolved strategy for dealing with resources. Fighting over territory is allowing ourselves to fall prey to our baser instincts rather then using the capacity for higher thought which Nature has endowed us with.

Borders exist, primarily, for reasons dealing with Organization and Stability.

And it's totally mystifying why you'd say I don't believe in Evolution. Evolution is a Universal Principle and Empirical Fact.

[mondo joe]

207. I never said the need for borders is predicated by lack of resources.

Competition for resources, yes. :-)

[sadiesworld]

56. The multi-national corporations thank you.

[crispini]

234. If you want solutions to the problem you'd better come up with ones...

that work with and understand human nature, otherwise they'll fail.

[Odin2005]

264. Nationalism is simply a ramped up tribalism...

...created by democracy and mass education. Tribalism is part of human nature, even our chimp cousins go out a annihilate nearby groups of chimps just for the hell of it once in a while. Unfortunately, with modern weapons of war as well as mass media propaganda our tribal squables risk sending humanity in hyper-distructive convulsions like WW2.

[mondo joe]

60. Then you need to let go of the idea of immigration.

If this country means so little to some people they should stop trying to become citizens.

[mindfulNJ]

3. I agree...

seems a bit counter-productive to their aims here...and gives the wingnuts an issue to grab on to.

[chancew]

5. I agree...

I may get blasted too but oh well.

[Gman]

6. WEDGE ISSUE!!!

We can't let this split us.

Keep in mind that probably very few of these kids are illegal aliens, if any. That's what's being lost in all this. They are probably 99% Americans. So its American kids that are doing this.

Now, I will agree, that someone had to tell these high schoolers that this is what it means if you do this.

[Deja Q]

10. Last I heard, repugs are split far moreso on the issue.

Those "kids" in the pic look more or less 18. Seems adult to me.

[Ioo]

11. Dude we are Democrats... Everything is a wedge issue...

We can not agree on fuching the flavor of Jam on the table at a party.

We can not agree on an Iraq strat, we can not agree on anything, jesus.

I will vote Democrat no matter what. This is a message for the Protesters not poloticians.

Will Rogers once said when asked, if he belonged to an orginized party, he said, "No, I am a Democrat"

[Gman]

35. Good point!

BTW, that was Will Rogers.

[Strong Atheist]

125. "Everything is a wedge issue" Lol! nt.

[goclark]

254. Funny how when we are protesting the War it is OK for US to burn

the American flag, spit on pictures of our "unelected" President, call our elected officials fools etc. etc,

Now, when KIDS, a huge percentage of them AMERICAN citizens, are trying to express their fears that their PARENTS may be considered felons and torn away from them ~ we are going to get picky about the worth and beauty of our American flag.


I'm sorry ~ I love my country with all my heart but I HATE the way that Bush has ruined this country and has caused our flag/reputation to be burned all over the world.


Give the kids some slack, they are expressing their outrage at the government, not the flag.

Let us not forget how Martin L. King made many "outraged" when he said the Vietnam War was WRONG.

Now, when we look back on those times, most of us wonder why we didn't see the issue as clearly as the brave doctor Martin Luther King Jr.


:patriot:

[mondo joe]

277. Hey, it's okay for anyone to do anything. Send the message you

wish to send.

But don't be shocked when people respond to your message.

[goclark]

295. I'm not shocked by responders, I've read

this thread, I see how the folks are hiding behind our flag in trying to put down the expressions of the HISPANIC students.


When the students at Kent State burned the flags against the war in Vietnam, I guess that was OK with the majority of the posters because they were AMERICAN Citizens.


Well it sure wasn't OK with the bigots that called them dirty, druggies and Communists at the time.

[coalition_unwilling]

352. Thank you -- Irish wear green on St. Patrick's Day, and no one

rants against them. Italian-Americans fly Italian flag on Columbus day and no one rants against them. Is it just me or is this economic nationalism merely a cover for a newly fashionable racism?

[goclark]

357. You are far from crazy

All of a sudden, up pops a "rap me in the flag" Mime from the so called Left.


Huum, maybe it wasn't Diebold afterall.

[Critters2]

364. What laws are you trying to influence when you wear green

on St. Pat's day? For me the thing is that it seems odd to try to influence leigislation in one nation by flying the flag of another. Makes no sense.

[coalition_unwilling]

516. The flying of the Mexican flag is an expression of national pride, not

an attempt to "try to influence leigislation in one nation by flying the flag of another."

What is an attempt to try to influence legislation is the massive resistance (thus far, peaceful) being exhibited across the country by people who work for a living.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

371. I've never seen an Italian flag flying OVER the American flag.

THAT is the point.

[coalition_unwilling]

517. Silliness (mixed with a red herring) -- do you mind telling me

what possible difference it makes to anything material which flag flies on top?

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

520. Flag etiquette.

That's what difference it makes. It's symbolism.

[coalition_unwilling]

521. So, taking the title of this thread at face value, the

"protesters aren't winning you over" because they're violating etiquette? What about the substance of their cause?

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

524. You're missing the point.

What the protestors have done is purposeful. They are hanging the Mexican flag OVER an upside-down American flag to make a specific statement that they are proud to be Mexican and probably to denounce America in general. Like I said, it's the symbolism involved here.

[coalition_unwilling]

528. I've pretty much given up on the American flag representing

anything to be particularly proud of, esp. after Abu Ghraib, Gitmo and Bagram (not to mention the little matter of Katrina). But I'm grouchy today and need a nap, so if you respond, I'll post another post tomorrow that's more considered.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

529. What it means to YOU is of little importance to the message sent.

[coalition_unwilling]

542. Good point. I sometimes forget in my solipsism that I'm not

the only person who exists :) However, having said that, one commentator out here in the "LA Weekly" (the alternative rag) noted that what was evident on Saturday can no more be held back than the tide. If people want to be offended over the display of a symbol (the Mexican flag), far be it from me to suggest they're missing the forrest for a single ree.

BTW: interesting sociological point I forgot to mention about L.A. demo: the people carrying the Mexican flag are mainly already American citizens. The people carrying the U.S. flag are the undocumented workers, according to another commentator in the "LA Weekly."

[LoZoccolo]

14. BOARD NANNY!!!

Anyone who would "divide" over this (I'm assuming that means split with the Democratic Party), would find something else to "divide" over.

[Name removed]

216. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Marie26]

312. They are trying to divide us

There's a lot of evidence that right-wing commentators are also fanning the flames within the Democratic Party; but it's partially our faut for being so easily divided.

[file83]

416. We ARE divided: American Citizens and Illegal Aliens

This isn't a race issue. This isn't a political issue.

It's a LEGAL issue.

[Marie26]

435. American citizens aren't divided on this issue? nt

[LoZoccolo]

493. So I'm not allowed to have another opinion?

Which opinion gets to win and have everyone have to agree with it to prevent "division"?

And I still don't see the point of preventing "division" in this case - is anyone threatening to leave the Democrats over this? What political damage does this do?

[Marie26]

495. Of course you are

I'm just pointing out that the people we're all opposed to (Republicans) can benefit from Democratic in-fighting. While we're all concentrating on high school protests, the Bush Admin. just passed the new Patriot Act, argued to the Supreme Court that Bush can waive habeus corpus, & signed legislation that was not passed. The censure motion has also largely fallen off the radar. Bushco. is consolidating power while we're distracted.

Sensenbrenner, who proposed the new immigration bill, was also responsible for the REAL ID Act that tags & identifys all Americans. In order to enforce this new immigration bill, we'd all have to carry these ID's in order to prove our citizenship. I would have to ask my clients for ID's before I could offer services, & it'd be the same for all social service providers. We'd all become enforcers of this new regime. Is that the kind of America you want to live in? So of course everyone can have their own opinion on immigration, but I just think to a certain extent that it's a distraction & we're taking our eyes of the ball - stopping Bush & Co power.

[Canuckistanian]

7. Well, I gotta say...

This is going well beyond the message of "accept us" and going into the dangerous territory of direct provocation.

[Deja Q]

8. K & R.

People left their own sodding country for America.

To now put their own flag over America's (upsidedown or otherwise) seems really, really bizarre.

And the flag is the Symbol of a Nation, Not to be taken lightly.

For them to do this is absolutely disgusting. Did they become Americans to put their home country over America?

If they prefer their home country to America, maybe they ought to renounce and go back. They must obviously prefer it to America, or maybe they're giving a signal and wish to overthrow it.

[TAPat]

12. Lots of feelings on this one...

I'm with you here:

"Should we streamline the INS, hell yes, it is a disaster
Should we welcome those that want to come here, Yes we should, all people.
Should we throw open the doors and reward illegal Actions NO!!!"

[ovidsen]

13. I agree with you.

Oooooh, you're gonna get flamed! But I'm on your side.

My local newspaper had an AP picture this morning of (presumably) Hispanic students in Oklahoma carrying flags.

The caption said the students with the Mexican flags were taunting the one student with an American flag.

Maybe the caption is wrong. I hope it is. Because if it's right, I have a problem with this picture, and the scene it showed.

[pecwae]

15. K&R nt

[Ioo]

18. What does K&R mean, did I miss something?

It is early...

[pecwae]

20. Just that I'm with you.

Kick and recommend.

[Lasher]

Kicked and Recommended

I think you 'kick' a thread when you post a reply to it.

Thanks for posting this thread.

[shenmue]

16. I'm with you

Good point. :7

[standup]

17. Liberal economist Krugman: Illegal immigrants threaten our safety net

New York Times / March 27, 2006
North of the Border
By Paul Krugman

... I'm instinctively, emotionally pro-immigration. But a review of serious, nonpartisan research reveals some uncomfortable facts about the economics of modern immigration, and immigration from Mexico in particular. First, the net benefits to the U.S. economy from immigration, aside from the large gains to the immigrants themselves, are small. Realistic estimates suggest that immigration since 1980 has raised the total income of native-born Americans by no more than a fraction of 1 percent.

Second, while immigration may have raised overall income slightly, many of the worst-off native-born Americans are hurt by immigration - especially immigration from Mexico. Because Mexican immigrants have much less education than the average U.S. worker, they increase the supply of less-skilled labor, driving down the wages of the worst-paid Americans. The most authoritative recent study of this effect, by George Borjas and Lawrence Katz of Harvard, estimates that U.S. high school dropouts would earn as much as 8 percent more if it weren't for Mexican immigration. That's why it's intellectually dishonest to say, as President Bush does, that immigrants do "jobs that Americans will not do." The willingness of Americans to do a job depends on how much that job pays - and the reason some jobs pay too little to attract native-born Americans is competition from poorly paid immigrants.

Finally, modern America is a welfare state, even if our social safety net has more holes in it than it should - and low-skill immigrants threaten to unravel that safety net. Basic decency requires that we provide immigrants, once they're here, with essential health care, education for their children, and more. Unfortunately, low-skill immigrants don't pay enough taxes to cover the cost of the benefits they receive.

Worse yet, immigration penalizes governments that act humanely. Immigrants are a much more serious fiscal problem in California than in Texas, which treats the poor and unlucky harshly, regardless of where they were born... Realistically, we'll need to reduce the inflow of low-skill immigrants. Mainly that means better controls on illegal immigration...

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/032706O.shtml

[Name removed]

23. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jbcghia1]

319. Krugman not god

Not buying it - total straw-man
Are we now bemoaning the high school dropout. If you are unwilling to educate yourself there is not a lot any country can do for you. I agree the system is messed up but enforcing our borders isn't a magic wand solution
Wages are an issue, so raise the min wage i.e. a living wage. Document the undocumented in a non punitive way and go after the companies who hire undocumented people for below the minimum. Undocumented workers could get papers to legally work and be taxed and get paid a little better. Our hardworking dropouts would get more in the bargain as well. Add preventative health care for all and we wouldn't have such a problem at our emergency rooms

11 million undocumented immigrants how much are they costing per year?
How much does it cost to stay in Iraq for a year?


Every so often in this country the powers that be toss an anti-immigration bone to see what groups get excited.

We should tear down the statue of liberty while we are in this frenzy.

[Cobalt Violet]

380. $11 billion to $22 billion per year.

http://www.cis.org/topics/costs.html

[Bridget Burke]

501. At least he has logical reasons for his opinions.

Whether or not you agree with him. I don't, totally, on this issue.

Krugman isn't going into a snit about one picture that Michelle Malkin is pushing to her Right Wing readership. Unlike some others.

[LaurenG]

19. Unfortunately

I agree the US flag should be left on top. I think we need to get past that issue though. (By now our flag had better be back on top, btw). The diversion is that we are all freaked out and we are kept that way by everything that this administration does. This (illegal immigration issue) will be a tough nut to crack but we can work it out if legislators just use common sense and quit getting angry. I would like to see the borders tightened and the bull shit stop.

Someone jokingly wrote to Lou Dobbs last night suggesting making Mexico the 51st state and that ought to solve most of the border problems. lol

[Ioo]

29. It is not a tough nut to crack at all.

You are missing the whole point. There people said in a clear voice, We want the US to be Mexico. Mexico is a shit hole, I worked down there for a while. I DO NOT WANT THE US TO BECOME MEXICO

[LaurenG]

43. No I didn't miss the point at all.

I totally understand the problem. We will not solve anything by fanning the flames though. I was raised on the border, so I DO know and I have lived, worked and supported through high taxes many illegals. My surrogate mother was an illegal and she did not want to have the US become Mexico either.

The flag thing pisses me off but the big picture is human beings are going to be hurt. I hope that we can find a solution that our legislators can agree on. It will be a tough nut to crack to get the borders under control and agree to the solution, that was my point. I hope that whatever is decided is done swiftly and humanely.

[druidity33]

482. ugh...

Choice of words was a little off there... when you say "swiftly and humanely" it brings to mind the picture of euthanizing dogs. Don't forget about the Halliburton "detention" centers set to be built... the work camps are coming. As for "swiftly", I don't think that speed is as much of an issue as getting the solution CORRECT (try reading No More Throw-Away People by Edgar Cahn for a start on that...) Maybe we can start treating not only Mexicans and other immigrants (as well as our "homegrown" Americans) with humanity by creating a social capital network that benefits all of our people by rewarding co-production and Non-Market imperatives. As for the flag on top... these are high-school kids right? Since when do we respect the opinion of high school kids? Have they been taught enough history to understand what the order of flags would mean to a veteran? Do they know the US flag upside down is a distress signal or are they just doing that "cuz it looks cool"?

One way we can make things better is by getting rid of Agri-Business, and returning to Agri-Culture... i could go on and on about that, but i won't.

Peace.

[LaurenG]

541. You're right, I didn't notice it at the time, lol

I have limited time to post (here at work) so I quickly wrote what I was thinking. A thesaurus would have been helpful I think.

I believe addressing this swiftly, so as not to give the negative energy surrounding this issue any more time to turn this into a racial matter would benefit us all. I still believe we need to get it right and do it now. There is too much anger and animosity and IMHO if we don’t make clear what we are talking about there will be a bigger mess to deal with. Many people feel threatened, you can read it all over this board and we are the open minded ones in the country.

I wish that it was well known inside each of us how badly we hurt ourselves when we don’t keep the best interest of others top most in our minds. It all comes back, what we put out we receive in kind.

[goclark]

255. They don't want the US to be Mexico!

These kids LOVE the USA!

The huge majority are USA citizens!

[OhioChick]

21. I have to say

that I agree with you 100%.

[fasttense]

25. I know how you feel. Why aren't they in Mexico trying to reform their

government? It is so awful in Mexico that they put up with dehumanizing conditions in order to make a buck and feed their kids but they protest here? I just don't get it. They should be in Mexico voting their current administration out and developing plans to assist the starving suffering masses. If these huge crowds marched in Mexico wouldn't they have some kind of impact? More of an impact than here in the US.

I feel for the illegals in this country but to make a change they have got to do it where they have a vote and say in the government by right of their citizenship.

Going along with corporate funded protests in the US aren't going to produce the change they so desperately need. It is as if they have given up on Mexico.

[skooooo]

148. Wait, so you migrate to another country....

...and then protest using the flag of your old country? What kind of sense does that make?

[TX-RAT]

189. Uhhhhhhh let me guess, this is so tough.

None?

[goclark]

392. Plenty nt

[CanonRay]

26. Totally Agree!

This is a big turnoff for me. They are welcome to demonstrate, although I think illegals demonstrating for the right to be illegal is a trifle odd...

[bobalu]

95. Precisely!

[NWHarkness]

27. Your soil?

Damn Mexicans coming on to your soil in California and Arizona and Texas and New Mexico...

Hey, how did they manage to stick their dirty name on one of our states anyhow?

:eyes:

[Ioo]

32. It is my soil...

I have dawned the uniform to protect it....

I am ALL FOR LEGAL immegration, I support that 100%....

[im10ashus]

33. You have a right to be upset over the flag issue.

I too served and that is unsettling. You can't let a few bad apples ruin it for the others. :shrug:

[Ioo]

36. I can... Look at the pics man, this is what they want...

They want to live in the greatest nation in the world (It was anyway, thanks to Bush it may now be 3rd or 4th) and want to make it Mexico. In the old day this would be considered an act of WAR...

I DO NOT WANT THE US TO BECOME MEXICO

[im10ashus]

38. We are not becoming Mexico.

That's a ridiculous assumption. Those are a couple of people who do not represent the majority.

[Ioo]

57. Give it time, we were not a dictatorship, and then one day, we were..

Who saw it coming...

[LostinVA]

101. Good grief -- they do not... they want to live here and keep it the USA

These are kids who want to stay here, and who are also proud of their heritage. And, whose heritage is being demonized -- they're just throwing it back at the xenophobic racists in the media, the government -- and yeah, DU -- saying: That's right! We are Mexican-American, and we're proud of ut!!!

The whole flag thing is just nuts -- just nationalism. I couldn't care less what flag flies over the US's.... especially when it's a bunch of kids that are upset.Our country isn't a flag, or a national anthem, or a a person in DC... it's everyone who has worked and sweated and bled and died in this country. It's us. And, it includes these kids,a nd people marching with Mexican flags. They don't want it to be Mexico.

Do you understand these people -- esp. the kids -- are upset and angry because they are being singled out and scapegoated? Because they are. And, this si not a new problem... a blind eye has been turned for many yaers... but hey! It's an election year, the "war" is going badly, and the abortion and gay things just don't fly like they used to....

Having served in the armed forces is honorable. Many members of my family have done so, including a maimed BIL. However, that doesn't somehow give you extra points to pass judgment on people.

These immigration threads are crazy.

[im10ashus]

I hope you realize I agree with you.

I know we aren't becoming Mexico. This is just flame-bait, IMHO. :hi:

[Marie26]

213. These are KIDS

Doing stupid things, like kids do. The US is not going to become Mexico.

[file83]

417. In highschool, we raised our UNDERWEAR (tighty whities) on the flag pole.

But at least we didn't fuck with the American Flag. (It was at night, so the flag was down.)

[Marie26]

445. High school pranks

Yeah, high schoolers do stupid things. It happens. To me, this uproar is the equivalent of someone seeing your prank, and expressing horror that the citizens of Michigan (or wherever) would do such a thing. They then decide that they'll be more suspicious & unsympathetic toward Michiganders in the future. Of course, the prank wasn't sanctioned by Michigan, it was just some kids being rowdy. Same here - this prank wasn't sanctioned by the leaders of the huge LA protests, or Hispanic organizations, or any adults. Yet somehow their actions are interpreted as being representative of the feelings of all Hispanic immigrants. I find that puzzling.

[goclark]

398. If they wanted life in Mexico they would have stayed there nt

[huskerlaw]

405. That's a completely insane statement

not a one of them is advocating the United States becoming Mexico. Quite the opposite, actually. They're pissed off because the United States Congress has introduced legislation that will tear apart their families and send them back to Mexico.

The whole point is that they want to stay here. In the United States. NOT in Mexico.

If you're going to be pissed off, at least educate yourself about the issue.

[NWHarkness]

156. Latinos have worn the uniform as well

Of course, that sort of chest pounding is not germane to the discussion.

The point is, many of the Latinos who are protesting can trace their ancestry ON THAT SOIL back to before there was a United States or a US flag.

[Katherine Brengle]

489. I have to agree here, for a couple of reasons --

1) The "soil" has changed hands many times throughout history, and was essentially stolen by our ancestors (those of us who were actually here at that time, which is probably a minority) from Mexico.

2) As far as I am concerned, I detest land "ownership." I understand why it exists, and I understand the desire to have a place of your own on this earth, but how anyone can feel entitled to "own" the land is so far beyond me, morally, that I can't hold to this "My Soil" concept. The soil belongs to the earth, and I am a mere visitor upon her surface.

[Minnesota Libra]

28. THANK YOU - I thought I was the only one left who honored our flag and ...

.......wanted people to come here LEGALLY. I don't care if they don't like our immigration laws - that isn't the point. The point is illegal aliens are here ILLEGALLY, end of argument.

I'm with you in hating the feeling that there is one issue I agree with republicans on - this is the only issue I agree with them on. But for me it is MY COUNTRY and I want MY FLAG respected thank you very much.

The least these illegal aliens could do - IF they truly want to be A PART OF THIS COUNTRY and not just take it over - is fly an AMERICAN FLAG - that just bugs the holy crap out of me.

I lived this issue up close and personal before I moved and believe me there is much more to it than just "fair wages".

Just try going to Mexico and making the same demands as illegal aliens make here - try that and we will keep track with a stopwatch as to how quick they end up in a Mexican jail too.

BTW, thee is NO JOB an AMERICAN WON'T DO to feed and care for their family.

Thank you for listening to my :rant:

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Minnesota Libra]

48. Excuse you, I lived the issue of illegal aliens up close and personal....

.....for many years. I didn't always live where I'm living now.

I have no problems with immigration at all IF AND ONLY IF it is done legally.

[entanglement]

118. So, if I understand correctly

you had some bad personal encounters with illegal immigrants and that makes you dislike all of them intensely? That makes about as much sense as someone hating all women because his girlfriend cheated on him.

[Minnesota Libra]

170. It ONLY makes me dislike ILLEGAL immigration nt

[endarkenment]

163. Great then lets legalize it and be done with this non issue.

[Minnesota Libra]

179. Legalize what?? Maybe this will point out what I'm getting at........

......

Americans March on Mexico City
http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/viewArticle.asp?articleID=7324

Of course this throws a curve into those accepted views though doesn't it??

[Bridget Burke]

190. Your link doesn't work.

Big surprise!

[Minnesota Libra]

222. Link worked yesterday, will try to find another link to the same story nt

[Minnesota Libra]

280. Seems to be working now, here is story..............

......

American Illegals Marching On Mexico City
http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/viewArticle.asp?articleID=7324


David Kessel
March 28, 2006
(The Americas Press Agency, March 29, 2006) - Thousands of Americans residents in Mexico marched on Mexico City; and hundreds more marched on other Latin American capitals to protest what they perceive to be the unfair treatment they have been receiving in those countries
snip…….


Jose Rodriguez, a Mexican citizen, has commented- “They come to our country and they want jobs? But this is our country. They have no right to be here. They are only guests here. Yankees, go back home! We don’t want you here! Come with money or get out! We do not need a poor Gringo competing with the locals! “Mexico is para los Mexicanos!” Viva Mexico!”

Snip…..

Some people have also reportedly demonstrated in several American cities in front of the consulates of Mexico, Guatemala, and Costa Rica chanting: “Racists! Racists! Human rights for Gringos! Human rights for Americans!”, but there has been little press coverage of the event.

[Marie26]

343. Doubtful

Try googling the "Americas Press Agency." It doesn't exist. Zero results on a Google search & only one result on Google News - this story. But hey, it's already been mentioned 7 times on Google Groups as this fake story blazes across the Internets. Search - http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&rls=GGLD%2CGGLD%3A2004-46%2CGGLD%3Aen&q=%22Americas+Press+Agency%22&btnG=Search

[foreverdem]

30. I'm with you on this

That photo of our flag upside down with a Mexican flag over it is appalling. This is how much these people want to be accepted and legalized by our country that they would disrespect it in this way? If they think Mexico is so much better, then go back.

[FredScuttle]

452. Excuse me?

Just who do you think is protesting? These are CITIZENS, for Christ's sake.

[Katherine Brengle]

490. You know you sound like a RW dittohead, right?

Kind of like, "You don't like it here, don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out!"

Raising the flag upside down is a distress signal that should be recognized by every American, whether they are descended from 10 generations of legal European immigrants or have run across the border from Mexico.

Also, the flag is a piece of fabric. I'm sorry, but I refuse to get all teary eyed over a flag.

People are always saying, "Americans have died for that flag," blah, blah blah -- No they have not. Americans have died for America, and America is a whole hell of a lot more than a fucking flag.

[xchrom]

34. of all the things there is to worry about for me

this isn't one of them.

looks like the hysterical amen crowd is up and at 'em.

remember -- not so long ago much of the far west was mexico -- we are BLOOD RELATED to mexico.

so how mad can you be at ''illegal'' mexican immigrants?

oh well -- i could care less.


here's a couple of different views of the situation if any one would care to look.

http://www.econlib.org/LIBRARY/Enc/Immigration.html
The Impact of Immigrants on Native Earnings



There are two opposing views about how immigrants affect the labor market opportunities of American natives. One view is that they have a harmful effect because immigrants and natives tend to have similar skills and compete for the same jobs, thus driving down the native wage. The other view is that the services of immigrants and natives are not interchangeable, but rather complement each other. For instance, some immigrant groups may be unskilled but particularly adept at harvesting crops. Immigration then increases native productivity and wages because natives can specialize in tasks for which they are better suited.

The first view is more likely correct. Economists who have rejected this view on the basis of evidence have looked at somewhat superficial data. These economists speculated that if the services of natives and immigrants are interchangeable, natives should earn less in cities where immigrants are in abundant supply, such as Los Angeles or New York, than in cities with few immigrants, such as Nashville or Pittsburgh. Although natives do earn somewhat less in cities that have large immigrant populations, the correlation between the native wage and the presence of immigrants is weak. If one city has 10 percent more immigrants than another, the native wage in the city with the most immigrants is only 0.2 percent lower.

i'm not a libertarian but this piece does some justice to dispelling the myth of ''illegal immigrants and wages.

http://www.lp.org/issues/immigration.shtml

In 1989, the U.S. Department of Labor reviewed nearly 100 studies on the relationship between immigration and unemployment and concluded that "neither U.S. workers nor most minority workers appear adversely affected by immigration."

very detailed evidence about ''illegal'' immigration, over all wages continue to rise -- with of course complications in specific sectors.

http://are.berkeley.edu/courses/EEP39C/Immigration.htm

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

37. "Patriotism is the most foolish of passions and the passion of fools."

[Ioo]

41. Patriotism is all I have left...

The nation I grew up in is gone. Bush killed it...

The only thing I have not given this nation is my life. I left the service very very disabled. And 10 years later, while better, I am still in sad shape.

I love this nation. I cry when I here the star spangled banner. TAPS kills me. In highschool I worte papers on the history of our flag. If this does not make you angery, then you really need to just stop posting here, stop voting, just stop everything, because you are not helping the great American experement.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

52. The Great American Experiment failed when it became an empire.

And, that happened long before Bush and his little troop of Fascists took over.

My last vestiges of patriotism disappeared with My-Lai and Kent State.

[Ioo]

55. I feel for you then, I truly do (NT)

[mondo joe]

64. Then why seek immigration to the US? n/t

[TallahasseeGrannie]

80. Are there countries out there

without their My-Lais and Kent States? Even placid Canada has a dirty past with their treatment of native peoples.

This country has long had strong admirable principles that we have on occasion failed to uphold. But we work at it and I am still proud of my country.

I'm truly sorry that you have allowed the actions of a few to jade you to the point where you have no love for your country. It must be difficult for you. Don't think I'm being snarky, I'm not. I can't imagine harboring that level of distaste for 30 years and staying here.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

72. Bush didn't kill it

he just hit it behind the knees and we're down. We'll get back up.

[baby_mouse]

420. .....crickets.....

This is exactly the sort of thinking I suspect I was born hard-wired to be against.

I'm sorry, Ioo, but there is clearly no possibility of discussion of this topic with you in a dispassionate or logical way if your opinions are this extremely tied to such a volatile, emotional reaction.

"Stop voting", hm? Hm.

[Sapphire Blue]

431. Does your patriotism extend to pledging allegiance to the flag?

The Pledge of Allegiance

I Pledge Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Hmmm... liberty & justice for all. Who do you suppose that might include?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Frances Bellamy's original Pledge:

'I pledge allegiance to my Flag and (to*) the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.' He considered placing the word, 'equality,' in his Pledge, but knew that the state superintendents of education on his committee were against equality for women and African Americans. { * 'to' added in October, 1892. }

http://history.vineyard.net/pledge.htm

[TallahasseeGrannie]

68. I honestly thought that here on DU

patriotism was a given. If you open your mind too much your brain will fall out. If being a Democrat means dissolving the concept of nation, I'm something else.

In order for me to give a flying *** about the issues of the day, I personally have to have some level of nationalism. We have enough trouble getting along together in one country as it is..if we eliminate our sense of nationalism we have little to bind us.

John Lennon notwithstanding, I don't think we are ready for the global village, and I don't think, given the territorialism that comes with our genes, we ever will be.

I don't believe in nationalism that insists we stay on top and are bigger and better than everyone else. I would like to see a world of nations that are proud of their cultures and heritages and work together with appreciation for the diversity that makes us stronger.

Flags are potent symbols. This was not a good thing.

[Ioo]

98. No no my dear Grannie, You are not allowed to love this nation, I guess..

This is why the Right has such an easy go at painting the Left as America Haters, because in fact, many over on this side, do, or at the very least, they do nothing to defend the small things...

[TallahasseeGrannie]

135. Um...I hope this is a typo...

"no no my dead Grannie..."


OR DO YOU KNOW SOMETHING I DON'T KNOW???

LOL


Grannie...pinching herself to make sure she is still alive

[Ioo]

171. Sorry love, ment dear....

[Finder]

132. Nationalism is the first step to facism...

and dangerous.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

138. Many grand and wonderful things

(like patriotism) if taken too far, can become very bad indeed.

We could say that Social Security is the first step to Communism.

Moderation in all things..including moderation.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

142. You wouldn't care about the "issues of the day" without nationalism?

Are the issues you care about limited to the USA? Are the millions of people around the world starving and dying of easily treatable diseases of no concern? Are the "illegal" immigrants who risk their lives to come here and work to survive of no concern?

I don't believe that territorialism and nationalism are in our genes any more than I think that war is on our genes.

Flags are indeed potent symbols. The American soldiers kicking down doors and shooting up Iraq wear American flags on their shoulders. Dubya seldom appears without being surrounded by flags. Politicians of all stripes solemnly intone "God Bless America" after every speech as if God is partial to our bit dirt and we deserve to be blessed.

I decided on an October morning in 1965 on a marine rifle range, shooting at man shaped targets, that I wans't willing to kill my fellow humans for anything as abstract and simple minded as "my country".

[TallahasseeGrannie]

268. I admire your egalitarian ideals.

Unfortunately, I am not quite as broad-minded.

I learned a long time ago that I can't do anything about anything far away...except maybe pray. Which I try to do. But famines in far away places and genocide of people not my own... I used to fret and worry and experience survivor guilt, but some life experiences of my own taught me that it is false pride to think I can save the world. The most I can do, with my limited resources, is send fifty bucks here and there, parcel it out.

My country, however, is another issue. It is a framework that I can get my very finite mind to understand. I have given my life to caring for and educating children and know I make a difference there, and I work in my community and my church as needed and in ways I hope make a difference.

I guess I try and bloom where I am planted. And I admire the rhizomes among us who can spread and do more. I just am not one of them.

And I can't even kill a chicken, so I don't think I could shoot a man, either. I am grateful that with my generation my gender protected me from having to practice.

We'll have to agree about war and territorialism and our genes. I personally buy into evolution, lock stock and barrel and I think those evils are byproducts of our survival instincts.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

309. Too late to edit

but up there I should have said "agree to disagree" in the last paragraph.

tg

[Marie26]

381. It's a spectrum

Patriotism is a good thing; I think even nationalism can be a good thing. But when it veers over into jingoism & xenophobia, I start getting creeped out. And the final step is, of course, facism. It's a very gray line, & one that can be too easily crossed.

[Joe Fields]

39. Be careful not to condemn a movement, by the acts of....

an isolated few.

Besides, we should be concentrating on an impeachment movement right now.

[Ioo]

46. What impeachment movement? Frist 2006, that is the movement.

impeachment movement comes later

[TallahasseeGrannie]

83. What are we doing with Frist in 2006? You lost me.

[Lasher]

257. I'm sure he must have meant to say, "First 2006..."

I agree with that sentiment.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

266. Oh geez...I entirely missed it

of course. The capital F threw me. Plus I though Frist had been up to something I didn't know about.

Creepy dude.

[Joe Fields]

111. My point exactly. What impeachment movement?

That is what we need to be concentrating on. It is a meme that needs to be driven home. The rest(Frist, et al) will take care of itself.

[AndyA]

42. I'm beginning to feel this way as well.

I think it is very disrespectful to come to another country, then do things like displaying that country's flag upside down and under another country's flag. That is not acceptable to me as an American. When in another country, you respect that country's laws and its citizens. You are on their soil, and you must understand that.

The very fact that people are in the country illegally bothers me. They are not starting off on the right foot. They sneak in under cover of darkness, and do not go through the proper processes to gain legal entry. Just because it is expensive, difficult, or time consuming is not an acceptable excuse. America is a land of laws, and all citizens and visitors must respect those laws.

I do believe we must find a way to streamline the immigration process, make it more affordable, and speed it up so that people can do what is legally required of them.

As far as I'm concerned, if someone has entered the country illegally, they shouldn't have any rights. They have gone around the laws to get here, then they expect to be recognized by that country and have rights. It doesn't work that way.

When you move to another country, you respect and abide by their laws. You learn their language. You do not expect them to make exceptions for you. You don't have to give up your heritage, but you should not expect others to adapt to your heritage, either.

I think anyone who wants to become an American should have the opportunity to do so, as long as they aren't a criminal fleeing prosecution in another country. But I believe everyone should start off on the right foot by respecting the laws of the country they want to become a citizen of.

[goclark]

289. They didn't COME here, they were BORN here!

..."it is very disrespectful to come to another country etc."


These kids were BORN here and they are kids expressing their frustrations with our government.

Are they to sit quietly and say nothing when they are citizens of this country?

[elehhhhna]

44. imo the MX flag doesn't belong there, but I don't forget --

that my HOUSE sits on what was once Mexico, afterall.

[NNN0LHI]

45. Did you love Mexicans before they protested the way you didn't like?

Is that case here?

Don

[Ioo]

53. I DO NOT EVER SUPPORT ILLEGAL ACTION TO GET INTO THE US.

Mexican, Candian, French, I DO NOT CARE.

I DID until I saw this stay out of the debate. I also have a ton of respect for anyone that comes here and jumps the hoops of the INS. My best friend in the world (I know her hubby is reading this post) comes from the land down under. She did the dance and got the papers. HAZZA!!!!

I also think that ANYONE should be able to do the dance, I do not care where you are from. But I do not give a pass to drug dealers or bank robbers so I am not here....

All-in-all I did not care about the debate because I know it will go nowhere, but I do not think that going to a US PUBLIC SCHOOL, PAID FOR BY US MONEIES and raising the flag of ANY nation while rehanging our upside-down is just wrong!!!!

[EFerrari]

61. So, do we talk about illegal invasions?

Really, that's just silly.

You don't care that millions of people are living without living wages, the protection of any law, are forced into an underground culture but the Star Spangled Banner makes you cry?

Nice.

[mondo joe]

69. You mean millions who chose to live without protection of law and

who CHOSE to live in an underground culture.

[EFerrari]

77. Let's see. Do I eat or do I accept those conditions.

What does my belly say?

Only privilege can speak in that really disconnected way about poverty.

[mondo joe]

84. How many millions didn't choose to illegallly cross the border?

[EFerrari]

88. And you're taking this where?

The poster is upset because children don't know how to handle flags.

lol

[mondo joe]

92. Incorrect. But if you continue to want to frame it in a

dishonest way, go right ahead.

Your bias is quite clear.

[EFerrari]

96. I hope my position is as clear as possible. n/t

[Ioo]

103. It is, You support Illegal actions. You and Bush have a lot in common.

Look, illegal is illegal is illegal. There are way to get here, if you choose not to use them, this is my issue how?

Then those that are here legaly make it clear that they want to make the US Mexico, and you support this how?

[EFerrari]

126. That's hilarious. And some laws are just WRONG.

Would you be supporting slavery? Do you oppose gay marriage? What about interracial marriage? Should women own property.

:eyes:

[mondo joe]

151. When laws are wrong, work to change the laws.

Or do you not believe in democratic process?

George, is that you?

[EFerrari]

478. Ad hominem works when you have no where else to go.

Democratic process didn't wait to exploit 11 million people.

But THEY should be patient.

Nice.

[Ioo]

89. No one forced them to come here, there are legal ways...

They choose not to, and this is my issue HOW?

[EFerrari]

93. Exactly. You have no idea how having undocumented workers

here keeps prices down so YOU can eat. And yet, you seem to believe that trying to feed your family is a matter of choice.

You have to be pretty well fed to hold both beliefs.

[mondo joe]

106. Keep prices down AND wages. Duh.

You don't have to be well fed to oppose an illegal underclass - just rational.

[EFerrari]

136. Yes -- be "rational" enough to splinter labor.

Qui bono?

[mondo joe]

162. This isn't splintering labor. This is acknowledging US labor and

acknowledging the existence of illegals.

[EFerrari]

181. It does splinter labor. Where Labor and undocumented workers

make common cause, Labor wins.

[NNN0LHI]

73. So you weren't going to be won over with or without any protests

Were you?

Your mind was made up a long time ago.

Wasn't it?

Don

[mondo joe]

86. While one might not be won over, one can certainly have the worst

fears confirmed.

Right?

[CanonRay]

65. This is NOT about racism...

so don't play that card here. This is about being a nation of laws, or not.

[EFerrari]

66. Then you'll have to settle for "not". n/t

[LostinVA]

102. self delete

[bobalu]

113. No, actually we don't !

[EFerrari]

139. When you get your 11 millions friends to back that up

I'll get back to you. :)

[bobalu]

150. ..Of Course...A personal escort for each and every illegal..?!

..We actually have more efficient means of transportation now!

[dogday]

91. Laws that we have not enforced ever

and have essentially allowed.. This is called acceptance, and in a court of Law if you allow something to go for so long and do nothing about it, you condone it.... We can't just one day say, ok, everyone back over, it is so ridiculous.....

[goclark]

304. Thank you ~

This government only wanted them here for the cheap labor and to break the backs of the Unions.


George Bush "don't like Brown People" and he knows it.

It's all about the almighty VOTE for the Republicans and we, the so called Party of Compassion, are going to allow them to take control of this issue.

We are going to allow them to say, " The Democrats don't care about YOU people, they think you should go back to Mexico(even though you were not born there.)"

By the way, the children's ancestors helped to Found our great city and state.

http://www.ca.gov/state/portal/myca_htmldisplay.jsp?sFilePath=/portal/links/the_dream.html&sCatTitle=California+-+The+Dream,+The+Challenge&BV_SessionID=@@@@0248770814.1143654572@@@@&BV_EngineID=cccdaddhghifimkcfngcfkmdffidfnf.0

[bobalu]

94. Thank you....I get so tired of that shit...Not because I don't think

it exists, but I don't think it is in any way the major issue here...It probably plays a part..but a very small one, IMO, at least on this board.

As a "European American" I'd be just as pissed if these folks were from Europe.

[mondo joe]

74. And "love" is pertinent to immigration policy...how?

[RebelOne]

47. You have voiced my sentiments exactly.

I felt the same way when I lived in Miami, FL and the Cubans would all fly the Cuban flag on their cars. Finally, someone came up with a bumper sticker that said "To hell with your (pix of Cuban flag)."

[Bridget Burke]

194. So--you don't just object to another flag flown above ours...

You object to the display of ANY flag other than the Stars & Stripes.

Does your objection extend to the Confederate flag, O RebelOne?

[RebelOne]

278. I could care less about the Confederate flag, as I am a born Yankee.

[Bridget Burke]

51. I see an error in flag-handling etiquette...

I do not see Mexico "taking over" the USA. Since you're so proud of your service--do you realize that the kids in the pictures are more likely to join up than the fat white children of privilege?

Is this the proper use of the flag? This guy is far more dangerous than a few high school kids.

[Ioo]

54. And this matters how,,, You are talking to a fat white kid...

I just grew up poor, that is all.

They are welcome to join, more power to them, I think everyone should. The fact that they will most likly join means little to NOTHING in the argument.

[dogday]

59. Think again, because if they fight for this

country, they have just a much standing and right as anyone..... Don't make this about the color of your skin... The red white and blue doesn't just see white.....

[Bridget Burke]

97. OK. You claim your service makes your opinion important.

But you don't give a fuck about those who may join in the future.

If their service doesn't matter, why should I respect yours?

[LostinVA]

108. Serving makes your opinion no more important than mine

Although I have great respect for those who serve and served in the armed forces, that doesn't confer any special moral rights on you.

[Ioo]

198. I do not say it does, I say I have defended that flag...

And FYI, there are many LEGAL ways for non-US to serve in our military. Yet another LEGAL path to citizenship. I worked with 2 Germans in USAF uniforms.

You do not have to respect me because I join, and I do not have any respect for those that MIGHT. Why do you so support Illegal actions, do you support Bush's wiretaps? What about the war in Iraq? they are illegal.

[dogday]

225. You defended what the flag stands for

Rights are not something you can see touch or smell, so therefore we use a symbol... The rights you fought for believe it or not, allow these kids to do this, whether you like it or not...


On edit: Thank you for your service... My only Son currently serves in Iraq...

[xchrom]

99. non-citizens do serve in our military.

there are quite a few mexican and latino service people in our armed forces.

and no this flag thing doesn't bother me -- it's an aspect of free speech.

i pretty much think an overt love of ''flag'' is a fetish anyway.

it's all nonsense.

[bobalu]

205. ..Service in the Military:..There is a proposition to confer automatic

citizenship to anyone serving in the military. I support that completely.

[OnceUponTimeOnTheNet]

58. I agree with you, Ioo.

kick and recommend

[Upfront]

62. Me Either

I believe you can't have a nation if you don't control your borders. I do not like paying for health care or any other benefits for illegal aliens. After watching the performance of our Democrats in Washington on this issue, I am starting to think about a new party. Such a party would represent middle and lower class Americans. Big business has bought and paid for our congress people. Not all, but most.

[mmonk]

63. Under this government

and in this time and space, I believe it would be best addressed at another time. This government spreads fear and hatred in so many subtle ways and it would be best addressed under a clear unfettered atmosphere of thinking.

[bowens43]

70. Freedom sucks huh?

Maybe you'd be more comfortable somewhere where dissent is prohibited and the borders are protected by an iron curtain.....

[Ioo]

76. Same Argument the Right Wing Used - Congrats

"If you do not like it, leave!!!"

Congrats, Bush would be proud...

I love decent, and as I said, I was silent on the issue until this. They are allowed to protest. They are not allowed to take the flag on a PUBLIC SCHOOL, a gov building, and raise the flad of another nation. I mean really, you don't see an issue here?

[mondo joe]

79. And who precisely suggested prohibiting dissent?

Did you not know the same laws that protect the protesters also protect the right to criticize them?

[Le Taz Hot]

71. You are not alone in your view

Personally, I've gotten to the point of not giving a shit whether or not I'm called a racist by a few misguided DUers for my views -- I and people who know me know who and what I am and am not and that's all that is important. The "racist" term is thrown around so indiscriminately anymore it has completely lost its impact.

I have not gotten into this debate on DU because 98% of the posts on it are inane drivel having nothing to do with the issues at hand.

Just know that you are not alone.

[bobalu]

75. I'm totally WITH you...This has nothing to do with 'race', the

the Alamo or anything of the kind...It's disrespectful and shows incredible chutzpah..especially considering that they either are, or are in sympathy with, illegals...jeez!..My reaction is the same:..You place a foreign flag over ours?...That means you value that country over ours and you should therefore return to it...

I am against illegal immigration but my approach would be to FINE the HELL out of the Employers who are obviously benefiting the most with the cheap labor angle. I also think imposing a Felony on an illegal is too harsh...wouldn't mind seeing it imposed on the cheap-labor employers..Of course, the Corporate kiss-asses of th Bush Administration won't do this.

[northzax]

200. don't fine employers who hire undocumented workers

jail them. six months at a pop. When the head of Tyson Chicken is serving a 5,000 year prison sentance, maybe people will pay attention.

[rman]

81. Don't let the Govt and Media dictate the debate over this issue

There are more then two possible solutions to this problem.

The options presented to us are
1. leave it as it is (result of the Bush sr. immigration reform act)
2. build a wall along the border, make providing healthcare to illegal immigrants a crime, and turn illegal immigrants into cheap labor guest workers.

It's not just about "them" taking "our" jobs. At the very least it is also about corporations preferring them because they accept lower wages.

Does anyone ever think about what the causes massive influx of immigrants (illegal or otherwise) in the first place?

Think outside the box. please.

[Karenina]

115. You wouldn't be alluding to

Big Agro dumping cheap U.S. produce, undercutting markets till indigenous farmers cannot compete and go belly-up (Big Agro then take$ over the property), forcing entire communites off their tradional lands and out of their traditional work and lifestyles into urban environments for which they are ill-prepared... would you? :shrug:

[rman]

122. No of course not, why would i?

*walks away whistling innocently...*

[mmonk]

82. How about reinstating the Alien and Sedition Acts?

Something like that is what may end up being law again in today's climate.

[Marie26]

374. They're working pretty hard on

both fronts, huh?

[mduffy31]

87. I'm with you too

...This is the kind of stuff that hurts the movement, does not help it.

[NewInNewJ.]

90. For what it is worth, I also agree with you.

[earth mom]

100. Why is the U.S. flag upside down?

I don't get the meaning at all, but agree it is disrespectful as hell. And not a good idea-especially if you are trying to win the hearts, minds and support of the people already here legally. :shrug:

[dogday]

107. It is a sign of distress when the flag is upside down

and we have seen this at many protests in this country, also there is an icon at this forum with an upside down flag.... Are these kids not protected under Freedom of Speech? And when did we get so intolerant of Freedom of speech?

[Ioo]

110. The flag was hung as a sign of Direspect - An you got my point as a whole

If you want to win the hearts and minds of Americans, who are overwhelming aginst illegals this is not the way to do it. In fact, you have turned me from a passer-by to one that will activly not support you...

Well done!

[dogday]

117. I have three words for you.....

Freedom Of Speech

America, you can love it or not, but freedom of speech is protected here...

[mondo joe]

186. Freedom of speech includes speech in response to the protest.

You can protest any way you like.

And everyone else is free to respond, in a variety of ways.

[dogday]

212. Absolutely, but your interpretation of the protest

is your opinion, not the facts, per say.... I have a different view on this....

[mondo joe]

214. Of course. All interpretation is subjective, whether it's to this, to

a tv commercial, to a book or to a message board posting.

And people will act in accordance with their interpretation.

[dogday]

244. That's right and I don't expect you to

respond waving a flag or anything else... Understand... You have the right to do it anyway you want, just as these protestors do.....

[TX-RAT]

208. freedom of speech is protected here...

It sure is.

And so is my right to respond. And i'm sure some here wouldn't like my response.

[dogday]

241. As it your right ,and I won't tell you how do it or

whether you should be waving a flag while you are responding... Respond on,,,, It's a free country......

[katinmn]

184. I disagree that Americans "are overwhelming against illegals"

People are starting to understand the horrible policies that favor business over labor. I believe informed Americans are against the policies that created this mess, not the immigrants.

It seems overly reactionary to let a photo that was cherry picked by a right-winger known for propagating hatred to determine your view of this issue.

[LostinVA]

112. An upside down flag is not disrespectful

It means "Mayday."

[katinmn]

159. Sign of distress. See my avatar.

[Marie26]

233. I don't like it either

But please keep in mind that it was one protest by one high school. These photos, however, have been beamed all over the world thanks to Malkin & Free Republic. They have an agenda as well, which involves inflaming anti-Mexican sentiment here in the US. And it seems to be working.

[kurth]

104. If Democrats are seen as coddling illegals, forget November

Just forget it.

There is A LOT of anger out there among the natives.

[juliana24]

105. Amen!! Fuck La Raza, Mencha and all the other brown BIGOTS !!

A bigot is a bigot and a racist is a racist, no matter the color of thier skin !!

These Mexican cowards know that had they pulled this stunt in Mexico City, Vincete' Fox's army would have had a field day rounding them up.

[dogday]

114. Boy, you sure know what a bigot is!!!!!!!!!!

:rofl: :sarcasm:

[Bridget Burke]

127. It's hard to argue with a real expert...

Too bad Mexicans don't protest in their own country:

[juliana24]

129. Damn straight I do !

[dogday]

131. You mean

Damn straight you are....

[Neil Lisst]

109. It was a dumb thing for them to do, but why get excited about it?

How about a little perspective? One group of high school kids does this. Is it a big deal? No. Is it worthy of getting bent out of shape? No.

Anyone who gets overly excited about anything going on with a flag needs to take a deep breath and get a clear head. It's just a flag.

[bobalu]

121. It's not "just the flag" it's a symbol...and, maybe I'm wrong but

they look pretty friggin' old for High School kids!

[EFerrari]

123. What are you doing out from under the bed?

Those brown old looking teenagers might sneak up on you any time.

:rofl:

[bobalu]

143. Oh my...I guess a closed mind makes for easy amusement!

..I'd suggest you unjerk the knee, open your mind and try again, as you're making absurdly false assumptions.
If you'd like to dispute that, I suggest you find ANYTHING in my posts which back up these assumptions, e.g, I'm "afraid" and/or "racist".

Try actually LISTENING to what people say!

[EFerrari]

155. LOL!

[bobalu]

192. ..Yeah...I GUESS that will work when you can't respond to a challenge!

...But hey...Since your opinion doesn't seem to be gaining much support here, I think I'll just sit on the sidelines!

[Neil Lisst]

141. It's a symbol of FREEDOM.

Anyone who thinks the flag is more important than the rights it stands for needs to reexamine their understanding of America.

[bobalu]

161. ..Yes!.......for people who obey the law!....

[Neil Lisst]

206. No, for everyone. You are being harsh and unreasonable.

You want to call them criminals, which is your option, but it merely identifies you as one who lacks compassion and understanding.

[bobalu]

231. Please don't tell me what I "want to do"....too many on this board

are constantly leaping to false conclusions about other DU'ers.

If you read my other posts, you'd see that I do NOT support imprisonment or felony status...O.K.?

[Neil Lisst]

258. You called them criminals. No one ever mentioned imprisonment.

Let's review, and see what happened.

ME: It's a symbol of FREEDOM. Anyone who thinks the flag is more important than the rights it stands for needs to reexamine their understanding of America.

YOU: Yes!.......for people who obey the law!....

ME: No, for everyone. You are being harsh and unreasonable. You want to call them criminals, which is your option, but it merely identifies you as one who lacks compassion and understanding.

YOU: Please don't tell me what I "want to do"....too many on this board are constantly leaping to false conclusions about other DU'ers. If you read my other posts, you'd see that I do NOT support imprisonment or felony status...O.K.?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

You stated that the flag is a symbol of freedom, but not for these marching illegal immigrants, because they are breaking the law by being here. I said you were being too harsh and calling them criminals (which you did). I never said you wanted to imprison them. I said you called them criminals, which you did.

You still fail to see that the flag is just a symbol, and disrespecting the IDEALS for which it stands is worse than disrespecting the flag itself. You've got them inverted. The cloth itself means nothing.

[bobalu]

308. Uhh, Neil....I just checked ALL of my posts....The "c" word isn't there

So, unless you can actually give me the NUMBER of the post in which I supposedly called anyone "a criminal" I'd appreciate it if you would stop making false charges against me...O.K.?

[Neil Lisst]

310. it's implicit in your conclusory statement regarding their status

Don't be coy and evasive.

You attempted to deny them the same right to freely protest because they are not legally here. That's calling them criminals, and it's attempting to deny their rights because of it. That's what you did. You said that the freedom the flag stands for is the freedom of those who obey law, implicitly casting as those who don't obey the law the protesters. That's the definition of a "criminal" - one who does not obey the law.

Equivocate if you must, but don't deny you characterized them as criminals, because that's exactly what you did. If you say someone cannot tell the truth, then you've called them a liar.

I'd appreciate it if you'd acknowledge the truth of your judgments, instead of hiding behind a smoke screen.

[bobalu]

326. Neil...I don't need to hide behind ANYTHING...nor does anyone

here who disagrees with your rather "loose" interpretations of what others say.

They ARE breaking the law when they come here illegally, so technically, one COULD call them criminals, but one could say the same about J-walkers...I do NOT do that because the term "criminal" has more negative connotations than I feel either J-walkers or illegal immigrants warrant.

"Freedom" is a wonderful ideal and all nations should aspire to it. But the particular "freedoms" gained in THIS country were won and/or worked for...I believe they belong to law-abiding U.S. Citizens.

p.s. Such "freedoms" are not to be confused with basic human rights which should belong to everyone, regardless of citizenship.

[Neil Lisst]

333. well then read some Supreme Court decisions

And you'll find that your attempt to restrict freedoms as belonging to "law-abiding US citizens" is not the law of the land.

You were born here. What did you do to win the freedoms of this country?

[bobalu]

335. ....Uh huh...and i imagine you were born here too...What did YOU do?

[Neil Lisst]

451. served in a war, that's what

But the point isn't what I did, it's what you did, which is be born, so don't get all nationalistic about your superior rights as a citizen.

This ain't Starship Troopers, it's the US of A.

[bobalu]

477. First of all, you're equating assumptions

with facts... You assume for one thing that I was "born in this country"..How do you know that?...How do you know I wasn't naturalized?...FACT: You don't. In fact, you don't know a damn thing about me, but you ARE full of assumptions...HINT: You might want to ASK questions, first, "shoot" later?


I didn't "fight in a war" because my generation didn't take women in combat...Having said that, My father fought in WWII, and my uncle died in it...and that guaranteed YOUR freedom.

As to what I've done: PLENTY. More than I want -- Or need -- to justify to you on this board.

So until you've done a little research, perhaps you shouldn't become "all self-righteous" regarding your opinions.

[dogday]

491. Amen to that

The funny thing is most of those kids are American citizens, they were born in this country.. They are worried about Moms and Dads having to leave this country... When someone has an agenda to promote like this, they tend to hide behind those smoke screens you talk of.. Great Post....

[juliana24]

124. Just a flag, huh? Then why are they protesting here instead of Mexico ?

Because that "flag" and what it stands for, gives them the right to protest, that they would not have in most countries.

Try hoisting the "Old Glory" over the Mexican flag in a protest down in Mexico City and watch the fireworks begin !!!

Can you say: "Double standard" ???

[Neil Lisst]

137. So what? Why should you or I care?

The flag stands for freedom. What it stands for is always more important than the cloth thing we call a flag.

[Marie26]

497. Cause they're US citizens, that's why.nt

[katinmn]

165. Malkin earned her keep today! Even got the liberal moonbats

pissed off at all illegal immigrants.

One picture. Wow.

[kurth]

183. Not all immigrants

LEGAL immigrants I know are good patriots. Some have kids in the military, and they would never ever put their flags above ours.

[katinmn]

228. Fine: pissed off at all illegal immigrants.

[Marie26]

247. These kids are probably US citizens.

So I guess these photos should make us pissed off at US citizens?

[goclark]

305. Right , thank you very much

Yea, where was the anger at the Peace Marches when we clapped because folks were burning our flags and mocking our uncommander in Chief?


Where was the rage on that issue?

[dogday]

492. Apparently it becomes more subjective

the darker you skin color gets..... This is an agenda of the worst kind... And it isn't even the whole picture, just one found with no flags to inflame and incite... There are plenty of people carrying USA Flags in these marches, but it doesn't get shown.. I know, I live in Houston where they are taking place....

[Marie26]

496. Well, you need to get outraged over something

I just think it's amazing that after peaceful marchs of over 1 million people, this is all they can find to complain about. It would've been nice if there was a riot, at least, to get outraged over. But no, people were organized, non-violent & committed to a cause. So we're reduced to complaining & getting outraged over a flag & some high school students.

[mondo joe]

188. "Pissed off at all immigrants"? Please stop making shit up.

Or point out the liberals who are "pissed off at all immigrants".

[Marie26]

[Marie26]

246. Amazing, isn't it?

It really helps show the power of imagery.

[mondo joe]

275. I never had any doubt about the power of imagery.

I suspect neither did any protestors. If you don't think an image will be impactful, why use it?

[Marie26]

330. The use of images

You do realize that this was some high school kids, protesting in Whittier, CA? OK. I don't like the photos either, but realize that this is a few kids making a statement. Many Americans, for example, will display the flag upside down to make a statement. (DU even has an upside-down icon). We applaud the display of freedom of expression. But when some Hispanic students do it, we are OUTRAGED. Why is that? Is it only appropriate to protest w/flags when middle-class liberals do it? I don't get it.

And here's another question. Now, why would a protest of 30-some students suddenly become world news? The right-wing latched on to these photos & is now using them as if they represent the entire movement. Free Republic is pushing to email these photos to every national news outlet, & Michelle Malkin is giving them prominent place in order to inflame anti-immigrant sentiment. They know the power of imagery - already on other threads, I've seen people talk about "raising the Mexican flag over the US flag" in reference to protests in PHOENIX. It's not about facts, it's about imagery. Why didn't the OP include where he found those pictures, or that the protest in fact was by a small group of high-school US citizens? Because that dilutes the imagery & that dilutes the anger.

[mondo joe]

376. I do realize that. I also realize there were a lot of images coming

out of the protests. IMO, some were beneficial to the issue and some were not. In part it depends on what your idea of what the issues are.

We - meaning DU - don't do anything in a monolithic way. In almost any thread about any major protest you'll see complaints about some display. I know I've been at enough protests when I've been plenty unhappy with some of the displays - particularly those that I think detract from the message that I think it's about.

Why would the photo be world news? I didn't know it was. I responded to a thread on one message board with a subject line labeling it a RANT, which typically refers to a very personal grievance with a relatively minor event. Not world news.

The use of the RW is particularly why I disliked what I saw in the photo. It confirms the worst fears or suspicions of way too many people who can be swayed. I've said repeatedly, everyone is free to protest with any message they like, but they have to live with the response.

Yes, it's all about imagery. Duh (and I don't mean that as a personal slight to you, but just to the idea that imagery would be less than significant).

[Marie26]

461. We realize some of the same things

Well, this protest is "world news", or at least national news, in the MSM to a certain extent & especially in the conservative blogosphere. You've sort of admitted that these photos are being spread as part of a right-wing propaganda effort. I agree that the students' action was offensive. And the potential use of these images against immigrants is one reason why I also disliked what I saw in those photos. But how could people be swayed to change a policy position based on a picture? Why would the actions of a few American students be assumed to represent all illegal immigrants? It seems so shallow & reactionary, yet that's what happens. Yeah, duh, it's all about the imagery. I just don't like it & it bothers me that people are so easily swayed by it. I know reasonable people can disagree on the immigration issue, but I would hope reasonable people would be able to look beyond simple imagery to the substantive facts in order to form their policy opinions. (And this is not a slight against you, I'm just speaking in general - you can't have enough disclaimers in a thread like this!)

[katinmn]

116. Do you think Malkin may have cherry-picked the most provacative

picture she could find? With some of the protests drawing a half million or more, you're going to find some radical extremes.

I don't think we can assume that all, or even a majority, of illegal immigrants endorse the rather disturbing image.

[Ioo]

120. Fact is it was done, message recived, Not happy

If they were selected, look at what you see, the act happened!!!!

It is not made up

[rman]

134. Question is, is it representative for the attitude of immigrans?

It may not be made up, but it can be a set up. Even if it isn't it is not self-evident that it is representative, like reli-fundies are not representative of religious people in general, and like militant environmental activists are not representative of the Left in general.

But maybe you daon't care whether or not it is representative.

[mondo joe]

147. Wait a minute. You just said a photo shouldn't determine immigration

policy. So who cares if it is representative or not?

No one is deciding policy based on a photo - people are reacting to the photo itself.

[rman]

174. Who cares? Looks like you do.

(on edit: or rather it looks like "Ioo" does care - ar you now saying on behalf of Ioo that he doesn't care?)


If you agree that it doesn't matter, then why debate the picture at all?

People are not just "reacting" to the photo, (some) people are asking what it means, which implies (some) people think that what it means does matter in the context of the issue of immigration.

[mondo joe]

182. I didn't say it doesn't matter, either.

I suggest you try to stick with what people DID say instead of making things up.

The protestors send a message -- one of many. People will take a lot into consideration, and this may be part of it.

[mondo joe]

133. Well you see, now it's hard to know what happened.

Some posters have said Don't be upset - they have a right to do this and to resent the USA.

Some posters have said Don't be upset, they didn't know flag protocol - it's an accident.

Some posters have said Don't be upset - they are just radical extremists.

Which is it - was it intentional or not?

[rman]

140. How's anyone here supposed to know the truth as to

it being intentional or not?

I say the issue of immigration should not be decided on based on an emotional picture.

[mondo joe]

145. No, it shouldn't be. Not at all. I guess I missed the policy decision

that was based on that photo.

[rman]

157. Not the policy decision, but public opinion

"Decision" as to what position to take on this issue.

Why else would the OP post this on a public forum? And why include that picture? Why have extensive debate on the interpretation of the picture?
To influence public opinion based on an emotional approach to a political issue.

[mondo joe]

172. Public opinion is informed by MANY things.

Why post it here? Because it bothered the OP. Duh.

This is a forum where members frequently share the issues that irk them.

DU doesn't determine public opinion. It's a forum for SHARING OPINION.

[dogday]

154. I didn't realize we had a politically correct way

to protest in this country... So by your standards, everyone has to wave the flag when they protest, or just "these people"?

[mondo joe]

160. By my standard no one HAS to do anything, particularly not with a

flag.

When you protest you send a message. Don't be surprised when the message is received.

But you're free to determine the message you send.

[dogday]

164. It's Their protest, it is Their message

Then let them send their message and not the message you are trying to get people to see.... I am more worried about the Man who waves the flag of freedom and continues to deceive us and try to diminish our rights then these kids...

It is not up to you to determine how these people protest, that is the beauty of protest... Duh

[mondo joe]

169. When did I ever - EVER - try to determine how they or anyone

protests? Never.

They are protesting, I'm responding. All in freedom.

Or did you think freedom only extended to protestors?

[dogday]

176. Nope I don't think it extends only to the protestors

but they are also not telling you how to respond, you should not tell them how to protest... Understand? Respond all you want, but your right to respond = their right to protest as they see fit.....

[mondo joe]

178. Of course they're not. They are sending a message and I am responding

as I see fit.

Just like all messages.

I never told them or anyone else how to protest, did I?

[dogday]

195. They are protesting

you are interpreting your own message.. You don't know their message, cause I don't read it that way, so therefore, what makes your interpretation any more correct than mine? Only they know what message they are trying to send....

[mondo joe]

202. No, I am interpreting THEIR message, just as we all interpret messages

all day and every day.

That's why it pays to put some thought into your message.

We all are the only ones who know what we mean with the messages we send - and we live with the outcomes of their interpretations.

Now when I did I EVER tell anyone how they are allowed to protest?

[dogday]

215. There are just as many people who do not believe

what your interpretation is, why can't you accept that? These kids can protest anyway they want.. That is what makes it a protest... Does it offend you? Obviously!!! Does it offend me.. No Way.... I still love America and the Flag stands for the Freedom I love, not the freedom itself....

[mondo joe]

218. I accept that your interpretation differs from mine. Have I ever told you

or anyone else your interpretation was wrong?

We'll have to wait to see what the broader response, if any, is.

I'd really apppreciate it if you'd stop telling me I shouldn't do things I never did.

[dogday]

229. I am not saying that, I am saying you see things

one way and I see them another and neither of us has the right to make our opinion the right one...

[mondo joe]

235. And again, we agree. I didn't think the matter was even up to

question.

We all interpret messages subjectively.

Then we act on our interpretations.

[dogday]

299. Have you ever been in a protest?

Seen some of the signs.. Abusive sick signs about this country, this president, this war? Why is this different than many of the protests we have seen in this country?

I have never seen a post talking about how offended they were with a shrub picture in the shape of a dildo or the flag morphed into a swastika????

No, it took a bunch of hispanic kids, who feel like they are being picked on by the USA letting America know they were sticking together to get people riled up... I see this as a bigot move...

I have seen worse marching on America's streets and so have you.....

[lonestarnot]

337. Guess it's military service experience.

[mondo joe]

372. Do I need to remind you that offense, like interpretation,

is subjective?

What offends one person may seem different to another. And one offense dosn't cancel another out.

[dogday]

487. Unless one has an agenda to make this an

issue when it is not... American kids protesting American streets, what's the big deal?

[High Plains]

401. Yes, and people who want to be offended will be offended.

Me, not so much.

[TX-RAT]

219. Of course it was intentional.

Spanish Media Organized Nationwide Mass Protests

http://cbs2.com/topstories/local_story_087231321.html

[Finder]

119. What a terrible thread!

Please be aware the protest warriors are out and about now. Expect agitators but don't fall for it.

[EFerrari]

130. Nope. Not for a minute.

:hi:

[baby_mouse]

411. I think it's a marvellous thread!

I've never seen so many obvious plants! Some surprises, too... but: :popcorn: abounds!

cocktails and olives for the masses! Warm in here tonight...

[bvar22]

128. This WHOLE debacle is about ONE THING, and one thing ONLY...

FAIR WAGES
for a
DAY'S WORK!!!

Everything else is BULLSHIT DIVERSION.
Pieces of colored cloth and how they are attached to a pole are IRRELEVANT!

The ENTIRE manufactired "Immigration Issue" can be solved by simply enforcing THE LAW against hiring undocumented aliens, and setting the penalties against "The Ownership Class" so that they exceed the benefit of using SLAVE LABOR!!!!

The Democratic Party is a BIG TENT, but there is NO ROOM for those
who advance the agenda of THE RICH (Corporate Owners) at the EXPENSE of LABOR and the POOR.

[rman]

144. word

:thumbsup:

But the propaganda is strong on this issue.

[bobalu]

224. THANK YOU!..but I think you need to tell sfexpat and dogman!

[dogday]

232. That is their position and do you mean dogday?

I don't understand why you would call posters out on an issue they do agree with... The OP started this post about kids not waving the flag or waving it wrong in his opinion... My opinion is that is does not matter what they do, there is more to this than flag waving....

It is rude to call posters out like this, I notice you have little posts and probably don't realize you should not do this....

[bobalu]

242. ....Sorry, "Dogday"!...but that actually did NOT seem to be their

postion, but whatever...I won't "call out" anymore, since you brought my attention to it! but I won't tolerate that stupid race-baiting, which "some" were doing here.

[dogday]

250. My position is these kids can protest till the cows come

home any way they want, it is their right, and I am not going to cut a washer off my ass on whether it is politically correct... Why is this such an issue all of a sudden? Last week nobody was talking about this.. Today, everyone is acting like this is a huge deal....

I grew up with hispanics, went to a mostly hispanic high school, I love these people, they are nice people, good people and I think they are getting a raw deal....

I am more worried about the man who waves the flag of freedom while trying to eviscerate my rights....

[mondo joe]

273. I keep missing something - you say the kids are free to protest

any way they like.

But I haven't seen anyone disagree.

Who here has been saying they should be prohibited from protesting as they choose?

[dogday]

286. Who here is saying they don't like it cause they

are not flying USA flags or flying them in the wrong direction? Not me...

[mondo joe]

291. Not liking something isn't the same as prohibiting it.

They're free to protest as they choose.

Others are free to not like it.

NO ONE IS TRYING TO STOP THEM.

[dogday]

292. No, one is trying to make them look bad

because they did not do what that person thought they should....

[mondo joe]

316. Make them look bad? Only they can control how they look.

As we previously discussed, everyone has different interpretations.

We can discuss those and share our opinions.

No one has the power to make someone else interpret differently.

Or are DU posters now not supposed to disagree?

[dogday]

486. DU posters normally respect other's right

to protest... American kids protesting on American Soil... Oh my, how disgusting they don't wave the flag.... You don't have an opinion, you have an agenda, there is a difference....

[Llewlladdwr]

440. I agree with MJ....

Folks are free to protest as they like. I'm free to react as I like.

Part of my reaction happens to be sending e-mail to my Senators and Representatives urging them to support Sensenbrenner's immigration bill.

Ain't democracy grand?

[Bridget Burke]

504. What's your problem with the Democratic proposal?

Have you turned 100% Republican? Or--did you not have to TURN?

[calmblueocean]

256. Man, I wish I could bump this up so more people would see it.

When the jobs dry up, illegal immigration dries up. Simple as that.

All we have to do is properly fund and technologize the INS so they can do their jobs. I don't know why this is so hard for people to understand.

[Marie26]

341. Thanks for boiling it down. nt

[Inland]

385. Dunno if it's the ONE thing, but it's the biggest immediate thing.

The desire to stop fair wages is what is behind Bush's guest worker program and the failure to go after employers.

[Finder]

433. We all want that...

and that is really not what the protest is about. Perhaps that is what it is being framed as by whatever source you are getting your info from, just as it is being framed as being about other issues depending their source.

People are protesting because a law may be passed that would make helping others a crime. In particular, those who help the latino community.

[skooooo]

146. I agree too.

[MadHound]

149. So let me get this straight

You agree, in essence, with the position of the protesters. Yet you cannot bring yourself to agree with them because they have the terminity to fly the Mexican flag at what was a Hispanic rights rally? Did I get that right?

If that is indeed your position, then I find it to be shallow and jingoistic. Let me guess, you can't get behind the peace movement because they too fly the flag upside down(the international sign of distress, more apt now than ever before IMHO)?

Stop with the blind flag worship. It is a symbol, OK, just like the Mexican flag is a symbol. Do you also get pissed when our LGBT brothers and sisters protest and fly the rainbow flag?

I think you need to start basing your judgements on the issues friend, not on what flag is flown.

[EFerrari]

158. By teenagers, yet. n/t

[im10ashus]

204. By TWO teenagers at that.

If only people were as outraged about the lies and criminal activity of the current administration. Perhaps THEN we could turn this country around.

[EFerrari]

260. I only wish my two teenagers had only raised real flags.

lol

[Solly Mack]

173. You can well imagine the tears they shed over those upset

Why, I'm convinced those kids went home and just cried all night and wondered whatever could they do to please those puffed up patriots who were offended by a flag

(I'm giggling - even if no one else is)

[Ioo]

177. No, I do not agree with the protesters, I was not vocal until then,

I know that immegration is a 3rd rail, DON'T TOUCH IT. I think illegals should be sent home. I was not vocal on the subject until now.

[Bridget Burke]

199. It's amazing how many posters were not "vocal" before now.

And, despite their concern for the American Worker, they were quite silent when labor issues were discussed. I've yet to find an immigrant-hater who is also a union member.

[mondo joe]

209. Well what do you know, protests exist to gain attention and form opinions.

Looks like they manage to do that.

[Critters2]

393. What union do you belong to?

[Bridget Burke]

395. Texas State Employees Union

Affiliated with the AFL/CIO.

[Critters2]

397. Oh, you have a government job

why am I not surprised?

But at least you've finally acknowledged you belong to a union. Imagine if all shops were union shops. But that wown't happen if employers can depend on illegal immigrants.

[Bridget Burke]

399. Pray tell--what's your union? Do you work outside the home?

And what's wrong with government jobs? Are you some kind of anarchist?

[Critters2]

402. I'm in ministry

in a community of union workers, mostly Glass, Pottery and Molders Union members, and United Mine Workers (silca miners). And unemployed folks who've lost union jobs to non-union workers.

What strikes me as interesting is your condescending attitude toward others, but now I realize tht you're guaranteed a job, union or no. So far, government workers aren't likely to be displaced by illegal immigrants. So, it's all theory to you.

[Bridget Burke]

506. "In ministry"....

Which denomination? Sorry, I just have a job.

I'm not a selfless advocate for labor, a crusader for the right & a saint in the making. Please let us know about some of those protests you've organized.

[Critters2]

532. United Church of Christ

I've organised protests against the abuses of workers in factory farms and their environmental impact, against the abuse of the poor in medical billing and access to health care, I've worked in union organizing in nursing homes and hospitals, and worked against English only bills.

Not a saint, just a committed progressive.

[MadHound]

217. Still and all, disagree with them over the issues

Not over symbols. Back in the sixties, when protestors were hauling down the Stars and Stripes on college campuses across the nation, putting up peace flags and black power flags up instead, were you as equally upset with them?

Do you find it as equally disagreeable that white people nationwide still fly the Stars and Bars rather than the Stars and Stripes? Does it irritate you to know that many of those who fought for the Union fought under the Green flag with the Golden Harp of Ireland, rejecting calls to fight under the Stars and Stripes?

The flag is but a symbol. It is fine, and quite American, to disagree with each other over issues. But fighting about a symbol is quite frankly ridiculous, at least in my opinion. It diverts attention away from the underlying issues, and spends copious amounts of energy on a diversion that in the long run won't amount to a hill of beans.

[mondo joe]

221. So we should just get over the Confederate Flag?

It's just a symbol after all. :eyes:

[MadHound]

227. Yes, when it all boils down, it is a symbol

A pretty ugly symbol in my opinion, but just a symbol nonetheless. As much of one as the Pride flag, the Peace flag, the Green flag, etc. etc.

Stop looking at the symbols friend, they are diverting you from what really needs to be worked on, the issues that underly the symbols. You can never deal with the symbols until you've dealt with the underlying issues first.

[mondo joe]

238. What it actually boils down to is that all messages are just

symbols.

Viewers interpret those symbols, and then act on them.

That is the outcome of our messages.

[MadHound]

252. Sorry, but I have to disagree with you on this one

A Confederate flag is a symbol. The issues it represents are what need to be discussed. I can rant and rail about my neighbor flying the Stars and Bars, but he isn't going to bring it down until he progresses beyond racisim and blind devotion to the Lost Cause. If I hound him just about flying the flag, nothing in his mind will change. Hoever if I talk to him about the issues that motivated him to raise the flag, then perhaps I can get somewhere.

Blind devotion to a flag of any sort is foolish. It obscures your seeing the issues and problems that the flag represents.

[mondo joe]

272. Thank you for your considered and civil disagreement.

Seriously.

In principle we agree - the underlying factors are what matter most.

But it's also true we communicate in symbols - the flag is no more a symbol than any word is, or any picture. And when people protest we often communicate with symbols.

Viewers will respond to the communications they receive - there's no way around it.

[tishaLA]

359. Must be someone who's never

been to a St. Patrick's Day parade. Or a Columbus Day celebration. Lots of Irish and Italian flags there. Held by sometimes drunken adults.

But the Mexican flag is a special case, I guess. Especially when it's being handled by high school kids in Los Angeles.

[DemonGoddess]

153. Maybe this link

http://www.usflag.org/flagetiquette.html will explain why people are upset about it. When the flag is on a halyard with other flags (in this country), it is ALWAYS on the top. Having said that, I could have seen the students flying the distress signal (upside down flag) with the Mexican flag underneath our own.

[dogday]

167. Oh is that protest 101?

I did not know even when one protests, one has to be politically correct...

[MadHound]

203. Did and are people just as upset about the Irish Brigade

Who fought and died for the Union in the Civil War, going to battle not under the US flag, but under their own Harp on a green background?

Sorry, but it is a good sign of a nation in decline when more importance is attached to the symbol of that country, than the issues that underly that symbol.

And if people are going to get upset about the way the flag is treated in this case, why aren't they as equally upset about people who mistreat the flag in other ways, wearing it, using it as clothing, not replacing it when it is damaged, etc. etc.

The flag is but a symbol, not the be all and end all of our country. I would rather pay attention to the issues, not to symbols. Issues have the power to effect all of us, while symbols effect very little.

[mmonk]

168. I see the possibility of violence coming.

Especially as politicians are able to associate our problems with Mexicans instead of policy and labor law enforcement.

[Marie26]

175. Are those high school kids?

I'd take anything high school kids do w/a grain of salt. You can disagree w/raising the Mexican flag at this particular school & still be against the Sensenbrenner bill, right?

[foreverdem]

185. High school kids?

These people look kind of old to be in high school, unless they've spent the last 10 years there. They look like adults to me.

[Marie26]

197. They are students

I checked the properties of the photos to see what site they're from (Michelle Malkin's website :eyes:), and here's the attached caption:

"03/28 : Student protest - Whittier area students from Pioneer, California and Whittier high schools walked out of classes to protest the proposed federal immigration bill March 27, 2006. The protestors put up the Mexican flag over the American flag flying upside down at Montebello High. (Leo Jarzomb/Staff photo)"

This was just a protest by some high school kids.

Malkin also gives a nice hat tip to Free Republic for sending out the photos. Link because I have to - http://michellemalkin.com/

[katinmn]

230. Thanks. Certainly puts things in the proper perspective.

Would have been nice if that would have been included in the OP. Would have been much less inflammatory!

[Marie26]

236. Makes you kind of wonder why that wasn't included... nt

[katinmn]

240. Yes, it does. Also reinforces the need to ALWAYS provide links

so people know the source and context.

[lonestarnot]

180. Outrage! One of the motherfuckers flipped me off for my impeach sign

yesterday! Ok I'm not judging by one person's actions, but they are way past looking a gift horse in the mouth. I haven't said a word about this yet on DU lately, but I must after seeing this. IF YOU'RE NOT HERE LEGALLY GET THE FUCK OUT! I DON'T GIVE A SHIT WHO YOU ARE! So call me a racist but that isn't even the issue, so that isn't going to work either. AND IF YOU PUT YOUR FLAG ABOVE MINE AGAIN HERE IN THE U.S. YOU'VE PROVOKED A FIGHT!

[Bridget Burke]

201. OK, you're a racist.

Hey, you ASKED me to!

[lonestarnot]

265. LOL

[Marie26]

344. I hope this is a parody.

Please tell me it's a parody.

[fujiyama]

463. I'm not going to call you racist

but I will say you have some real unresolved issues (and it's not necessarily because you are against illegal immigration).

[Chi]

187. How did you come to the conclusion that the movement supported

the action of a few (possibly one) high school students?

I really don't find Michelle Malkin to be open minded on such things..
you may want to find another resource.

PS Thanks for your service to your country.

[Ioo]

191. I don't - I see a croud cheering under this flag. as they wave others

I see a group that is sending me a message that is "We want America to be Mexico" I pic is worth a 1000 words, and the message was loud and clear...

[Chi]

223. I usually listen to what people say, not decide by a picture.

The group of high schoolers walked out of school, it appears
that a few of them decided to play with the school flagpole.

I asked how you came to the conclusion that the entire movement (or any part beyond these kids)
was in support of this action?

Why don't you search for a quote that supports your conclusion.
There were plenty of interviews that day, if dissing the USA was their intent I'm sure you can find
someone who said it.
If you can, I might even agree with you 8)

[K8-EEE]

193. I Live In Los Angeles, You Need To Understand

ALL MY LIFE I've understood as a fact that there are "Mexican" jobs that are shit and pay shit. The reason "Americans don't want to do them" is because they are not fairly compensated at all. Hell you could find American's to be a hotel maid but not for $5 an hour and no benefits.

Of course they identify as Mexicans -- they are second class citizens. The main protest we had downtown was a sea of US flags. No Mexican flags there at all.

Until we start paying people an honest salary and stop the Have Mores in Mexico AND the US from exploiting workers, this problem will just get worse.

I believe the super rich have their own loyalties and alliances to each other, not to their own countries at all, that includes Fox, Bush, the Saudis, all of them. They would love it if us working people start beating up on each other and lose sight of that fact. DON'T BE BAITED.

[DemonGoddess]

210. more of an explanation...

http://www.wi.net/flag.html

When flags of two or more nations are displayed, they are to be flown from separate staffs of the same height. The flags should be of approximately equal size. International usage forbids the display of the flag of one nation above that of another nation in time of peace.

The United States Flag Code (U.S. Code Title 36, Chapter 10) requires the U.S. flag to be flown equally with other national flags. All flags are to be substantially the same size and are to be flown at the same height. The United States flag is located to the right (from the flag's perspective which is from the left as a viewer looks at the flags) and then the remaining flags are located clockwise (from the viewer's perspective) in alphabetical order in English.

[druidity33]

494. we hear you...

but WTF? Do you really think these high-school kids had any knowledge of that prior to playing with their school flagpole? I have not seen anyone, anywhere that has claimed this as an intentional act and/or a statement of any kind... excepting, of course, Malkin and the other RW shills, pot-stirring in the not-so background.

Do you think these kids even know there is a US flag code? Who's fault is it that our nations history classes are filled with Braveheart and The Gangs of New York as fact, with lunches paid for by Coca-Cola, and Art class by Disney?

This shouldn't even be part of the debate except to educate these students about why what they did is offensive to some. We should be discussing the issue of immigration from the BOTTOM up... starting from scratch, getting the world's best people in here to devise a plan that's GOOD FOR EVERYONE.

With so many more important things to deal with, i am disgusted that this thread has taken up so much space on DU...

Sorry DemonGoddess, i wasn't trying to rant directly at you... just at the annoyingness of this thread.

Ahhhh, deep breath..... everyone hold hands and sing a song.... maybe "this land is MY Land"?

[Jawja]

211. I agree with your sentiment.

Perhaps the solution to the "illegal immigration" problem is to annex Mexico by offering statehood? Then our corporations will be required to observe current labor laws (minimum wage, etc.) and their citizens will pay taxes?

After all, it would provide more cannon fodder for the military....


:shrug:

It does not help their cause with the general public to fly their flag like that on U.S. terrority, especially if they are attending U.S. taxpayer funded schools. IMHO.

edited for spelling.

[Fovea]

220. a serious question

Does this bother you more, or less than Nazis marching through Skokie IL?

The reason I ask is the issue is similar.
The first amendment is not there to protect popular speech and innocuous gestures.

Sure it is upsetting and angering. You're angry, so are they. Frankly I get upset every time I see American troop in uniform breaking international treaties. I mean, I get rip off their head, piss down their throats mad. But it is my duty as a US citizen not to summarily whack every freeper the world shoves in my face.

This photo expresses, I suspect, the feeling of some immigrants,both legal and illegal, particularly those who, after smuggling themselves across the border, are now being threatened by Dubya's klan. It in no way invalidates the need for reform, though it illuminates it in an insulting way. But if I was stuck in the faustian bargain of being an illegal immigrant, or their teenage child, I'd be pissed too.

Finally, note that high school kids protesting *anything* these days is OK by me. It is enough to know that they are engaged. I watched non-violent protest in the 60's. It was certainly offensive to Chicago Police... Yeah, everyone has a button. The question is, when someone pushes it, does your brain remain engaged?

Finally, when the US sinks into real shootin civil war, I hope that our neighbors to the north and south treat us better than we are treating them right now. This is a Mexican Government sponsored problem. We need to smack the Fox junta, IMO, not Juan and Maria.

I am not saying this to put you down, I understand what upsets you. I am just saying that walking a mile in their sombrero might change your perspective slightly.

[Ioo]

226. My Last Word on this...

I am glad to see that I am not the only on in the left that thinks that the word Illegal means breaking the law. I am also glad to see that some people got the point, and the point was, there is an real issue here, but disrespecting the Nation you want to live in, or do legally live in is not the way you win friends to your side.

The fact is, and I do not care what you say, Illegal is illegal, Bank robbery - Illegal, Car Thief - Illegal, Spying on Americans - Illegal, crossing the boarder without papers is illegal, period...

I am glad that many of you disagree, that is okay.

What does sadden me is the fact that some of you use the same baiting bullshit that works so well for the right. We are not talking about just plain immigration, we are talking about ILLEGAL acts, and some of you have done a great job tiring to blur the two, congrats, Bush would be proud. I also love the, If you do not agree, then leave the US, that is a oldie but goodie, James Dobson cried a little.

All-in-all, I love you all, you are my people, and I am glad that most of us are honest and can have debate. This is sadly what kills the Democrats as a whole, we are thinking people, not sheep.

This debate is over before it started, no one is going to do anything about it.

We need to reform the INS, to make the dance to get in easier...
We need to open the doors to those that want to do the dance...
We are a nation of laws, and we should enforce them...

We are judged by our actions, and these protesters have turned me off to their cause...

Blessed be to you all...

[im10ashus]

243. "This is sadly what kills the Democrats as a whole...

...we are thinking people, not sheep."

How exactly is that killing Democrats? Playing small serves nobody. Have you ever gone over the speed limit? My guess is that everyone has broken the law at least once in their life. Making someone a felon for wanting a better life is nothing to frown upon. This is a REPUBLICAN bill that serves only corporations. I appreciate that we can debate this issue honestly and openly. BUT immigration, legal or otherwise, has made this country what it is. Unless you are full-blooded Native American, your family too would be considered immigrants.

:rant:

[goclark]

350. And the Right Wing is Happy that you are turned off by

the cause.

They have you right where they want you.

[Ioo]

383. I am not alone, read the posts, I see a lot that agree...

There is more issues of this in the right than there is here in DU. You should get a grip!

[goclark]

391. I have a grip

Just heard on TV that the Speaker of the House is not ruling out "the Guest Worker" program.

Don't tell me, tell the Master of the Congress Plantation that he needs to get a grip.

[Sapphire Blue]

394. Aaaah, but the Guest Worker program will be LEGAL. According to the OPer,

... we should support what's legal! goclark, we can't make waves... we've got to stay in our place on the plantation!

:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

Hmmmm... Slavery was legal. Killing Jews was legal.

Legal does NOT equal just, moral or humane.

[goclark]

400. Sapphire Blue, you speak for me! nt

Will you run for Congress so someone with a brain will be there?

[Sapphire Blue]

422. Ha!

You have to have a 'majority' of votes (& several million dollars) to get there... my positions on social & economic justice don't seem to put me in the 'majority' much of the time. Seems much easier for some people to attack 'the least of these', than to stand up for liberty & justice for all. Me? I'll stand side by side w/the oppressed, and stand up for liberty & justice for all.

Edited to add: "liberty & justice for all"... that's in the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag... the flag that the OPer so adamantly defends.

[goclark]

460. You're still my candidate Sapphire Blue :)

As far as the American Flag is concerned, there are many that hide behind it,draping themselves with it and use it for a prop in their Phony Op Press Conferences.

Their use and abuse of the flag,IMO, is far worse than some teenagers,expressing their thoughts about the land where they believe JUSTICE should flow for everyone.

It will be interesting now which party the young,vocal and bright Hispanic vote will turn to ~ will it be the Republicans or the Democrats.

From just reading a few replies to this thread, I would hate to be in their shoes because I would not be able to determine who really believes in FREEDOM and JUSTICE for ALL.

PEACE
:patriot:

[Sapphire Blue]

361. "All-in-all, I love you all, you are my people..." I am NOT 'your people'.

:puke:

Curious... does your "love" and "Blessed be to you all..." extend to those posting on this board who might be 'illegal' or family/friends of 'illegals'? Or do you assume there are none here on this board?

[Ioo]

382. Yes, I love all people, but Illegal is Illegal, what is So hard for you?

Do you agree with Bush's Wire tap? You should you support illegal activity...

I WANT the INS reformed, so all that want to come to America can come here with the correct papers, correct protections and so on...

WHY DO YOU SUPPORT SOME ILLEGAL ACTS BUT NOT OTHERS?

I am so sick of this shit, none of you people better ever call for the impeachment of Bush, he is doing the same thing you are doing, looking the other way as the law is broken...

You have shown again, another reason why Dems of late are always number 2. Ioo I agree with you on every single issue but one, therefor you are my enemy!

Much like the, "I like Bob Smilth's stance on abortion, voting rights, impeachment, green fuels, healthcare, and widget protection, but I disagree with his stance on term limits, SCREW HIM, I am voting GREEN Party"

And this is why we are number 2 always, because 9 out of 10 just aint good for some.

[Sapphire Blue]

387. What would you have done to people ILLEGALLY harboring slaves in the...

... Underground Railroad? What would you have done to those ILLEGALLY harboring Jews in Nazi Germany?

Yes, I definitely support some illegal acts, but not others. You, on the other hand, per your post above, would seem to support whatever is deemed legal, by whomever wields power, whether or not it is just, moral, or humane.

You said: "... Bush, he is doing the same thing you are doing." I didn't realize that he was calling for a livable minimum wage for all workers... I thought he was just looking across the border to legally import cheap slave-like labor. :sarcasm: Tell me, will you support a legal Guest Worker Program?

[Starbucks Anarchist]

484. Apples and oranges.

Slaves and Jews in Nazi Germany were targeted for what they were, not for their actions. Illegal aliens broke the law by their actions, not because of their ethnicity, etc.

Therefore, in the light of slaves and Jews being "illegal," helping them, as I'm sure the OP would have done, would be justified by human morality.

Oppressed slaves and Jews, oppressed for their immutable qualities, are a far cry from illegal immigrants who willingly break the law through their actions.

[Sapphire Blue]

388. "this shit"?!?! "go back to Mexico"?!?! "this crap"?!?! YOUR soil?!?!

Sure sounds like love :sarcasm:

[Bridget Burke]

502. The protests were totally LEGAL.

The people are trying to influence the government's actions. I remember marches in the South, some time ago. They were trying to CHANGE the laws. They succeeded.

A couple of kids demonstrated insuffient knowledge of the Flag Code. Michelle Malkin published the photo. The credulous took the bait.

[leesa]

237. Grow up. It's a piece of cloth.

[bobalu]

245. ..Yeah...and a book is just a bunch of paper....You grow up.

[baby_mouse]

414. Books have rather more meaning in them than flags.

Meaning is extractable in terms of the amount of information you can get out of the medium. You are claiming that a rectangle of coloured cloth is to be considered equal to the written thoughts of... whom, exactly?

[foreverdem]

262. Like the Constitution is "just a God damned piece of paper?"

It's what that piece of cloth and piece of paper stand for.

[file83]

426. Okay, if it's NO BIG DEAL, then let's raise the Nazi or Confederate flag

at the local school - then see how dangerous and important a "piece of cloth" really is.

It's a symbol. Burning the flag is one thing (freedom of speech) but raising another flag OVER this nation's flag on this soil is a declaration that can not be tolerated. It's speech alright, but it's a declaration that that soil is Mexico's soil. That's a dangerous precedent.

I dare you to go down to a school in Mexico, lower the Mexican Flag, turn it upside down, and place the American Flag OVER it - then see how "grown up" Mexicans would be about it.

[RagingInMiami]

239. That one group of people in the photo

Does not represent the entire 500,000 people on LA that day.

[file83]

427. Does the Mexican Flag NOT represent Mexico?

[RagingInMiami]

432. Well yes

But the point I was trying to make was that the OP was pointing out that it was disrespectul to the US. And I was saying that was only one group of people who was being disrespectul.

[Marie26]

466. This protest was also 2 days later. nt

[Anser]

248. People > Flags

Real peoples' lives are more important than the types of dyes used on a rectangular piece of cloth. If people who are standing up for human rights and dignity want to play musical flags, I don't think any of us should be flipping out. Leave that to the old Reaganites who pratically wanted to hang those that burned the flag.

[cap]

251. so what... come to NYC on certain holidays and you will see

the American flag flow with other flags! Pulaski Day -- Polish and American flags. St. Pat's day -- Irish and American flags... etc.

what's the big deal!

The American flag is flow upside down to symbolize a call for help...People are in distress. So what.

[Lars39]

253. Seems more like a freedom of speech issue.

Interesting that they also had the US flag in the 'distress' position.

[DemonGoddess]

259. one other thing about

the POSITIONING of the flags...

By the flags being positioned the way they are, the symbolism says that we were defeated in wartime by the country who's flag is flying above ours.

[Bridget Burke]

279. Source?

Sounds like Truthiness to me.

[DemonGoddess]

284. here

http://www2.powercom.net/~rokats/flagettt.html Plus, my husband mentioned it, and I have an email in to the American Legion to verify.

[Garbo 2004]

261. Saw a Mexican flag flying over Sutter's Fort the other week as I went by.

Better rip the State a new one over it, I guess. (It's a state park.)

Come May 5th there will be Mexican flags and decorations here in a lot of restaurants, newspaper ads, etc. It's not a state holiday, but it seems a lucrative business day especially for restaurants, as all sorts of people of all sorts of ethnicities "celebrate" an event most of them don't have much of a clue about as they chow down on chips, salsa and margaritas.

Wno knows, maybe they'll ban use of the Mexican flag now on US soil. But as long as it helps someone make a buck, I figure that may be unlikely.

I was against the war in Viet Nam. Some protestors burned the US flag. I didn't much care for that and certainly wouldn't do it myself or advocate it, but my position on Viet Nam wasn't changed by the actions of a few. My concerns and views on the issue were substantive and wouldn't be swayed by the flag burners or flag wavers. The actions of the government in the past and now have done more to disgrace what the flag is supposed to symbolize (that is, the ideals it's supposed to stand for) than what protestors do to it. JMO.

[iamthebandfanman]

263. i can understand

it makes me feel like they want where they live to become part of mexico, not them become citizens.

im all for speeding up the process in which people become citizens, but i dunno why as someone whos here illegally you should get many rights(besides basic human rights).

i dunno
when it comes to immigration i suppose im not so left.

they really need to make the process easier and let more people come over legally and make it so crossing illegally has no point to it and they would only be screwing themselves

[Bridget Burke]

269. Most of those kids are probably already citizens.

But they also retain pride in their Mexican roots.

[Name removed]

267. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Fovea]

271. Mexico is why patronage/peonage systems are such

bad choices for a nation. Other than spasmodic revolution, the majority of the governed are uniformly disenfranchised.

For these cultures, Mao was right, power flows from the barrel of the gun. That is what happens when the ballot box is stuffed.

Mexico is stuck in a prismatic existance, not able to count on the subverted aboriginal folkways of society, not able to become a modern diffracted state.

[John Barrett]

281. Should we import their society

Frankly I have no interest in living in Mexico-lite. If that's racist so be it. These people have accepted this culture for generations. We can assimilate some Mexicans into the USA, but the numbers that are proposed and are coming will (1) move our culture in their direction and (2) further disenfranchise Americans at the bottom.

This imigration thing is like the Titanic. We can accept a small hole and keep up with the pumps. But a big hole will overwhelm and sink us just as it did the Titanic.

[Bridget Burke]

274. Thanks for being up front with your xenophobia.

Mexico is, in fact, a wonderful country. There have always been class inequalities--the USA is just catching up. But the Mexican people have always struggled to better their country. The very poorest may leave for work because they are not up to the struggle. But there are educated Mexicans who are NOT in the elite. Have you ever been there? (& I don't mean to Boys' Town.)

Spanish cruelties against the indigenous peoples are well known. In fact, Bartolomeo de las Casas--a Spanish priest--recorded most of the abuses in anger. However, the Spanish were not as efficient at murdering or removing the natives as the English colonists.

The Mexicans who rebelled against Spanish rule also made a "mistake." They took that "rights of man" stuff too far & abolished slavery at the same time. Our own Independence struggle would have been much harder if the Founding Fathers had angered the Southern Slaveholders.

The kids who protested are Americans who are proud of their Mexican roots.

[John Barrett]

283. Go live there then

That's easy to solve. If you like it so much then go and live there. Sorry I have no interest.

But if you do go, be prepared to carry your own way and if you go illegally it won't be a pleasant experience Briget (I asume you're female). No free healthcare or safety net. If you run out of money your on your own resources so to speak.

You may call me xenophobic or racist if that makes you feel better...because on this illegal immigration issue I don't care what others think. It is an agenda by the "rich and powerful" to play on emotions like a fine violin with the goal of bringing down our standard of living.

We have no problem understanding how the GOP manipulates and uses the right wing religious nuts to get political power and implement their agenda. And this same power group is playing the left exactly the same way, but you can't see it. They want unlimited cheap labor, a ruling elite and a unified North America.

[Bridget Burke]

324. I've considered Mexico for retirement.

Quite a few American & Canadian retirees live there now.

Are you angry that "illegal aliens" get free healthcare? Or that all Americans don't?

[bobalu]

336. ..Great, so when they come here to retire, I guess we can

call it even!

As to your question:..How 'bout both?

[John Barrett]

349. 40 Million Americans Don't Have It But Illegals Do....Yeah I'm Angry

I agree with the other poster....I'm angry about both. I'm angry about politicians that look out for everyone's interests (and especially their own) EXCEPT for the interests of the people of the USA.

40+ MILLION legal Americans don't have healthcare and are at risk of losing everything. These same Americans (as are others) then charged with taking care of the apparently arrogant univited illegal immigrants who are only here because business wants taxpayers to subsidize them.

I agree somewhat with the GOP house on this in that we first need to solve the illegal immigration problem. Once the infrastructure is in place for this then and only then should we think about other things. Until that is solved it will be just like the previous dupes pulled that this time it will solve it, while millions of additional illegal immigrants waltz across the border. I'm really pissed at both parties on this.

[Bridget Burke]

360. Gosh--if we can just deport them all, THEN we get health care!

This isn't the first Republican Talking Point you agree with, is it?

[John Barrett]

366. BUT....It should be a Democratic Talking point.

Unfortunately for working Americans the Democratic Party is all they have, because opposing this illegal immigration boondoggle issue, that benefits the big money players, should clearly be a Democratic talking point and cause dujour. Now if I may be so bold to ask, are you going to go back to your double grande latte and ponder what other noble cause that the left should take on that will screw poor AMERICANS ;-) ?

Suggestion read the book: "Foxes in the Hen House" to get another viewpoint.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0743286510/ref=sib_dp_top_ex/002-7855956-3382438?%5Fencoding=UTF8&p=S00T#reader-page

[SemiCharmedQuark]

473. Thank you so much...

I am shocked and disgusted with this thread. They see the word "mexican" and they assume they are illegals when in fact most of these kids are citizens. Which then makes it an issue of citizens protesting a US policy. And how can any who claim to love our country disagree with that? I believe our founding fathers would want the principles the flag represents to be worth more than the fabric it exists on.

[Marie26]

306. Have you ever been to Mexico? nt

[John Barrett]

354. Is Cancun in Mexico? n/t

[Marie26]

367. No. lol.

I mean, yeah, it is, but Cancun is not at all representative of the rest of Mexico. Cancun is not a real town or city at all - it's basically a line of beach-side hotels for wealthy tourists, plus a few businesses that cater to them. There's none of the history, culture, & beauty that can be found in other Mexican cities. When I was there, it was almost all Americans & almost everything was in English. If you didn't know better, you'd think it was Virginia Beach. I don't think you can reach any sort of informed conclusion about what Mexico is like based on a vaction to Cancun.

[JeffR]

270. Rude Pundit's response to Malkin (warning: profanity!)

Michelle Malkin has been even more rabid, monkeyfuck insane than usual over the immigration bill protests. Bless her comically exaggerated facial features, she was all awake at 1:15 this morning, tapping her fingers bloody to reveal to all of us the outrages of the protests, including - holy fuck - the placement of a United States flag upside down under a Mexican flag. This was done by high school students, those models of subtlety, in California. Evacuates Malkin, "You will not see this heart-stopping photo on the front page of the NY Times or on the lead story of the major news networks." That's right - upside down American flag second on a pole - heart-stopping. Japanese Americans put into concentration camps for being Japanese - a-ok. Such is the morality of Malkin, for whom symbols are more important than people.

Malkin expands on her blog's bugfuckery in her column this week (if by "column," you mean, "flatulent banshee screeches sledgehammered into your head"), where she calls the protests "militant racism" from a "protected minority group." See, for Malkin, it's racism if Hispanics call out whites for hypocrisy, and they're "protected" so she can't write something like "Paco Taco and Senorita Chiquita Banana hate whitey and threaten to sleep under their sombreros on our porches if we don't let them fuck our children with chalupas" without sounding, you know, racist. Good thing Mexican immigrants are so goddamn protected - otherwise, white employers might exploit them.

But it's the protest themselves that have Malkin's Hello Kitty panties in a wad (see? That's a vaguely racist reference because Malkin ain't "protected," right?). Malkin belches, "One of the largest, boldest banners visible from aerial shots of the rally read: 'THIS IS STOLEN LAND.' Others blared: 'CHICANO POWER' and 'BROWN IS BEAUTIFUL.' (Can you imagine the uproar if someone had come to the rally holding up a sign reading 'WHITE IS BEAUTIFUL'?) Thugs with masked faces flashed gang signs on the steps of L.A.'s City Hall. Students walked out of classrooms all across Southern California chanting, 'Latinos, stand up!' Young people raised their fists in defiance, clothed in T-shirts bearing radical leftist guerrilla Che Guevara's face and Aztlan emblems." God, one a.m. must be a sad little time around Casa de Malkin.

Rush Limbaugh, Cal Thomas, and other jowly right wingers are besides themselves that Hispanics would dare protest, would dare raise up the Mexican flag (although one would bet that they have no problem with the flags raised on St. Patrick's Day or Columbus Day), would dare actually cry out en masse against the government.

More here: http://www.rudepundit.blogspot.com/

[katinmn]

296. Beautiful!

:applause:

[hedgehog]

276. If those Irish want to wave their flag, go back to Ireland to do it!

Where do they get off coming to the US and putting up those Irish flags all over the place and painting green lines down the roads and drinking their green beer....

and they're under cutting wages and having too many kids and they drink too much...

and they're uneducated and poor and they should fix their own country instead of bringing their problems here

and they'll never fit in with their strange customs and foreign loyalties...

and there are way too many of them, they are going to over run us native born Americans and then where will we be!


My mother was expressing concern over illegal immigrants yesterday. I didn't have the heart to remind her that we're not certain of HER mother's immigration status. Grandma became a US citizen, but there was something odd about the way she entered the country. Things weren't as strict back in 1920 I guess.

[bobalu]

302. ..Not to put too fine of a point on it, but I think this comparison to

Irish Flags on St. Paddy's Day and Italian flags/St. Joseph's day may not be a great analogy; These are holidays..No one..at least on this board..objects to flying the Mexican Flag on Cinco De Mayo day....

The flag waving here was obviously of a political nature.

[hedgehog]

311. Of course the Irish flag on St. Patrick's is a political statement!

That's why it's a holiday here and a holy day back in Ireland! In recent years it's degenerated into a day of boozy sentimentality, but at one time, St. Patrick's Day was a day for Irish Americans to stand up and stand together against the establishment. And believe me, there are still illegal aliens among the Irish here in America today.

[bobalu]

329. Yes, there are illegals of all nationalities...but I do believe MOSt

of the Irish, at least, came here legally...It's a lot harder to cross an ocean "illegally" than it is an arbitrary line in the desert, as it were.

[Inland]

384. Well, here the Irish ARE the establishment.

And the Pat's day parade is about power and who has it, and I love it for that.

But that's why it's not incongruous to have an irish flag flown. If it were a march about draconian and broken immigration policy...which has as it's premise that one wants to live here and not there....it just seems weird to engage in a bit of symbolism that puts down here and elevates there.

[Redstone]

282. Pretty women, though.

Redstone

[hedgehog]

285. We're here, we're queer, get used to it!

Oopps, sorry, wrong thread.

[EFerrari]

287. Lol! I was just thinking about my neighbor's rainbow flag.

But I guess he can't go back to where he came from.

He's already here. :)

[katinmn]

290. LOL!

:P

[radio4progressives]

288. It's about ETHNIC PRIDE People! It isn't about Nationalism! (Sheesh!)

St Patricks Patricks Day Parades, the Irish hold up the Irish Flag every single year - and in all the Irish pubs throughout the country, there are IRISH FLAGS draping the alls (not US Flags)..

Is it because the Irish don't like America? Fuck No.

It's about ETHNIC PRIDE. It's about HERITAGE.

The same thing with Knights of Columubs parades - again, ETHNIC PRIDE.


My God. This is the problem with the thinking of us Whities, we are so freaking ignorant and clueless about our multi-culturalism in our own country.


on edit: Have you ever felt the same outrage and shock on the same issue on St Patrick's day parades?

[mondo joe]

293. But this isn't an ethnic pride parade. This is a protest about

US policy, particularly granting immigration into the United States.

The protestors are free to protest as they choose. But if their intent is to influence opinion, they might want to be more mindful ofthe message they are sending.

[radio4progressives]

297. Who says it's not an Ethnic Pride Protest?

That's exactly what this is!

[mondo joe]

313. Really? And here I thought it was about US policy.

My mistake.

[radio4progressives]

315. Of course, it's both..

i didn't think that i needed to state the obvious on every single point, but apparently it's necessary.. my bad.

[mondo joe]

320. Then I'd say the protestors have blurred the line, and

as a strategy that might benefit them or cost them.

Their gamble.

[radio4progressives]

447. um, what kind of like the anti-war movement, eh?

Cindy Sheehan made things worse for the Out of Iraq strategy right? ANSWER made the war happen right?

got it..

[druidity33]

498. yes and no...

What did thehigh-school student protesters intend when they put their flag up? I submit that they were saying..."yay! Mexico! Proud to be Mexican! Viva Latinos!, etc". The only people claiming this "flag statement" is about US policy are Malkin and crew. You fell for it.

Honestly, expecting high-school students to think about what they're doing before they do it is generally like believing the Clean Air Act is there to protect us from harmful pollutants...

[goclark]

370. Oh how I agree

with you!


I believe the flag is not one that is respected, the Irish flag would be OK,I think I know why.

I wish there was a way to solve this issue that did not involve race baiting but from what I have been able to read, they have us just where they want us.


We need to stay on the side of what is FAIR and JUST.

Let's all pretend that that was the flag of Ireland waving above the flag that we hold so dear, then what?

[mondo joe]

378. If it were an Irish flag I'd have the same response.

I have no issue with cultural/heritage festivals or celebrations.

When you protest US policy I think it's poor form to sport another country's flag over the US flag.

Doesn't change my mind about the policy - but I think it does unfortunately give a lot of ammunition to precisely the wrong people.

[goclark]

390. The "wrong" people seem to always

know how to hit the hot button to make the "right" people on the Left get afraid that we will be tarnished for being Bad Boys and Girls if we support those on the bottom of the ladder of success.


We could have not allowed Mexican people over here a long time ago.

In the 60's they were called "Wet Backs" and people/governments turned their heads the other way while they got cheap labor and the hateful UNIONS were destroyed.

Now they are called "THOSE PEOPLE" that want to raise the flag of their native country above our flag."

Would they be more respected if they just waved the American flag and it was not upside down?

Or, would they be more respected if they only waved the Mexican flag to let us know that they were originally from Mexico?

Or, would we respect them more if they just kept coming over here,leaving the land that they love and their families and got shipped home in a box?


What would they have to do to make Amerika like them ~ sweep their floors, care for their young,clean their hospital bed pans, clean our houses, feed us our food in fancy restaurants?

What could they do to deserve our respect.....nothing.

Just don't come into our country anymore.


So sad

[mondo joe]

425. Actually, I'm not afraid of being tarnished.

But it is a possible outcome people will have to deal with if it comes to that.

When you say "our respect", you make it sounds as if the US is monolithic in attitudes. As you know, it isn't. Even within a party it's not.

I do think it's bad form to fly another flag over the US's in this circumstance. It doesn't make me more sympathetic, certainly. And if it were the flag of any other nation I'd say the same.

I expect to see those flags in celebration of heritage and history. I think protesting immigration into this country is something other than that.

[ima_sinnic]

294. it's only a flag (nt)

[ShortnFiery]

298. Yes, our Democratic party leaders fail to realize that we are

NOT all open to having our working class US Citizens (Hispanic, Irish, Chinese - whatever origin but LEGAL) undercut by the invasion of illegal immigrants from Mexico.

It's not just * who has a DEAF EAR to his party. This situation is similar to the fact that a significant percentage of card carrying Democrats will stay home rather than voting for Hillary Clinton or any other DLC "war-mongering" Democrat for President.

What the hell is wrong with Our Democratic Party? It freaks me out when I find myself agreeing with folks like Pat Bucannan, but I agree, send illegal immigrants home - regardless of their country of origin.

[TheModernTerrorist]

300. technically

it WAS their soil to begin with...:shrug:
but I agree. I'm not too fond of stuff like this.... though the upside-down American flag made me a bit happy :-)

[ShortnFiery]

301. When Cheney is indicted and must resign ...

Perhaps * could name Mexico's Vicente Fox as Vice President of the United States of North (south of Canada) America and Mexico, US-NAM? <tongue in cheek>

[Don Claybrook]

303. it's a piece of cloth

I haven't read the 308 responses, and probably won't, since I'm at work. So I'm sure someone has already said this, but you seem to be awfully hung up about something that doesn't ultimately matter at all, namely, the design of a piece of cloth that people are displaying.

Just a personal opinion, but you shouldn't let yourself get so emotionally wrapped up hubris vis. the American flag. There's no satisfaction in it.

Thanks.

[bobalu]

314. "it's a piece of cloth"...like the Constitution is "just a piece of paper"

...and racial slurs are "just words"...I think We all acknowledge the power of imagery, words and symbols...How 'bout we cut this disengenuous bull---?

[Don Claybrook]

317. what disingenuous bullshit?

It's a piece of cloth. We agree on that part.

The Constitution is a piece of paper. We agree on that part.
But the Constitution also spells out a list of rights from which all of our laws flow. The flag does no such freaking thing.

Next item: I think we agree that imagery can and does contain power. But since it's imagery and not text, not codified law, then the imagery is malleable, changeable.

So you tell me, Bob, what does the flag represent to you? Go ahead and tell me about apple pie and mom and all that crap, and we really don't have anything to discuss, because your thinking and mine are far too divergant for us to be able to conduct a discussion.

The flag represents some pretty ugly stuff to me at this point in time, so I'll cling to the Constitution you mentioned, and not to a symbol that for BILLIONS worldwide represents arrogance, imperialism, and death.

Hell, no, I don't have a problem with the Mexican flag....it carries no meaning for me.

[bobalu]

328. ...The constitution didn't always carry such good stuff, either, Don

..But we "amend". Sorry, I'm not interested in a long essay about "what the flag means to me"...If you want more "understanding" on this issue, I suggest you read more of the posts here...Most seem pretty reflective of my view.

[Don Claybrook]

331. Good for you

I'm glad you're in the majority. I've never put a real premium on agreeing with the rest of the herd, but I'll take your word for it that a majority of people in this thread agree with you. That way, there's no need for me to go and seek understanding or validation from others.

btw...that wasn't a long essay that I wrote. It was a short few sentences, but maybe as NCLB gets a few more years under the belt, that will pass for a long essay.

I guess we're done here. You told me to stop with the bullshit, then told me you didn't want to talk about it, so I'll assume you have a closed loop going and I'll just move along to the next thread.

Thanks, and have a good afternoon.

[bobalu]

334. Ditto!

[radio4progressives]

318. I pledge my allegience to the Constitution, not the flag.

the flag is symbolic, the Constitutution has meaning because it is the doctrine which contain the laws of the land and to which all elected officials swear an oath to uphold and defend.

The flag is mere symbolism and is often used to spur Nationalistic fervor and Militiarism - that's not the principles or the premise this country was founded on.

[bobalu]

332. ...So, technically, are words...We'll just have to "agree to disagree"

[Lydia Leftcoast]

375. The U.S. flag has no words on it

and was not crafted by some of the best minds of the 18th century. That's how it's different from the Constitution.

[K-W]

407. Last time I checked the constitution was a legal document, not a symbol.

Although certainly those on the right would rather you wave it than read it.

[baby_mouse]

409. The constitution is rather more rich in meaning than a flag.

I'm sorry, but I don't buy this comparison. Flags are hypnotising devices, it's no different to waving a red rag at a bull. Anyone waving a flag is treating his audience as a bunch of cows and anyone reacting to it lends the validity to the flag waver's strategy.

[dogday]

488. Sticks and stones

can break your bones, buts words and symbols can't hurt ya!!!!

[mondo joe]

510. But if symbols were not powerful we wouldn't use them.

Why burn the flag in protest? Because it gets noticed - it's powerful.

[dogday]

511. Some of use them and some of us don't

You are attached to your symbols.....

[mondo joe]

512. Words are symbols, pictures are symbols, little white crosses that

Cindy Sheehan uses are symbols.

I'm not attached to symbols. But I do recognize that they have power and use.

[dogday]

513. Cindy Sheehan uses Grief....

She shows the world what can happen to your kids in war... A living breathing reminder for me as my Son serves in Iraq... Symbols don't mean squat to me,, A hug from my Son would mean everything... Cindy will never have that again.....

[mondo joe]

514. It's fine if symbols are meaningless to you. Are you denying that they

have power and do matter to other people?

[dogday]

515. They have the power if you allow them to have it

Someone can flip me the bird, I know what it means... I have the power to allow that to either do two things to me...

1. I can get pissed off and rant and rave and shoot it back....

2. I can go on down the road and not give a rat's ass, cuz I know there are so many more important things in this life, like my Son's life, that it is petty....

I choose 2..... I allow the symbol to bother me or not

Do I always not allow? No, but it is always up to me to allow this to bother me or not....

[mondo joe]

527. Not what I asked.

I didn't ask what you allow, or don't.

But I'll take your answer as a yes that symbols do have power.

Thanks.

[fleabert]

321. don't ever visit a Six Flags park then!

or a Fiesta celebration in San Antonio.

all celebrate the countries and/or cultures that flew flags or settled Texas at one point.

http://www.parktimes.com/articles/theflags.htm

http://www.niosa.org/default.htm

oh yeah, and in Texas, you can fly the state flag higher than the US flag legally- it's in the constitution.


There is nothing wrong with people being proud of where they are from, and still being patriotic to the US. Duality is a concept that is usually hard for conservatives, I am surprised a liberal is so proud that they can't grasp it. It's a lot like supporting the troops while still being against the war...

[fleabert]

322. also- can't you see that it's an American flag in distress?

that changes the symbolism quite a bit imo.

[genieroze]

323. Is that a Mexican flag over a upside-down American flag? OUCH!

[DrunkenMaster]

327. Yep, You and Malkin

Two nuts on the same tree. Congrats on the kneejerk reactionary stance; I'm sure it will work out well for you.

[crispini]

342. LOL, now that's exactly what Skinner told us to avoid.

So, inevitably, people on DU who are too lazy to support their own positions simply accuse the other side of being freepers or corporatists or racists or whatever. Which is totally lame.

So, my advice to all of you is this: Cut the namecalling. Cut the guilt by association. Assume that other DUers represent the more progressive elements of the other side, and act accordingly. Doing so will make this place a lot more welcoming and interesting for everyone.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=772085&mesg_id=772085

[Marie26]

346. Except in this case, it's true

Those photos were copied directly from Malkin's website.

[crispini]

365. So what?

You missed the whole point of the thread I linked to, apparently.

[Marie26]

368. Yeah, so what

So it's OK, IMO, to point out that the photos are from Malkin's site. It's not OK to say that the poster himself is a racist. That post didn't do that, but he might've meant that. I don't know - there's so many insults flying around that it's hard to keep them all straight.

[pat_k]

339. When our law doesn't reflect our values, we debase our flag ourselves

The first step on the path to restoring honor to our flag is to impeach Bush and Cheney. (Impeachment First: Our House is Burning. Stop Remodeling and Put Out the Fire!)

It is only when we purge the new American fascists from our public institutions that we can turn our attention to the messy -- but democratic -- process of finding solutions that serve the common good on this, and other critical problems.

Controlling our borders isn't really about control; it's about values

"Controlling our borders" means more than erecting barriers or patrolling. Controlling our borders is about making a commitment to act in a manner that is consistent with our values.

When we set employment standards we are expressing our values. Those standards reflect our belief that all human beings have a right to be treated fairly.

As long as we allow ANY workers to be exploited within our borders, we disgrace ourselves. As long as we turn a blind eye to the violations committed by people who enter illegally or remain after their visa expires, we demonstrate hypocrisy.

Guest worker programs have a place, but too often; such programs have been used to give employers a ticket to pay substandard wages and subject workers to unsafe conditions. We cannot tolerate programs that set different standards for "guests."

To be consistent with American values, we need to "just say no" to the exploitation workers -- documented or not. Continuing to permit predatory employers to operate within our borders will only drive more and more of Us and "Them" into poverty.

Controlling our borders with the stroke of a pen

Building a wall takes time. We don't need to wait. We can effectively control immigration with the stroke of a pen by passing legislation that includes two basic elements:

• Going after predatory employers.


• Offering a path to citizenship for whistleblowers and their families.

Specifically:

• Expand the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) to cover every business and individual employer, whether they employ documented or undocumented workers.
  Conditions and terms of employment must meet FLSA and safety requirements for any wage earner who meets the criteria that would require reporting under IRS rules (e.g, the IRS threshold this year is $1500 for most of work).


• Criminalize predatory employment practices.
  Predatory employers who are violating FLSA, violating OSHA standards, and evading taxes must be subject to prosecution and mandatory prison time.


• Whistleblower immigration amnesty.
  Clear processes for workers to report predatory employers and maintain anonymity throughout the course of investigation. Whistleblowers who are undocumented (whether an individual or a group) are offered a path to citizenship.


• Increase resources and create special units as required
  Affected agencies would include the Dept of Labor Wage and Hour Division, Dept of Justice, OSHA, IRS, and INS. The Wage and Hour Division is probably the logical agency to oversee the handling of charges against predatory employers, including preliminary investigation, referral to Justice for investigation and prosecution, referral to IRS, and coordination with INS to process undocumented whistleblowers and other undocumented workers.

Making implicit costs explicit

The harmful effects of supporting an underground economy are costly to the nation. When we "just say no" to the exploitation workers, some implicit costs will be made explicit. Americans have a choice. We can invest our tax dollars to our common benefit, or bear the costs -- both moral and monetary -- of exploiting other human beings.

If we choose make predatory employers the prime target, we can ensure the survival of vital "underground economy" sectors by providing transitional supports. We can offset increased costs of goods or services to the working class through tax credits. (Should be part of shifting the costs of citizenship from those who benefit the least from our common infrastructure to those who benefit the most.)

Radically changing the rules of the game

If predatory employers faced serious penalties, and the undocumented workers they are exploiting benefited from blowing the whistle, we would significantly increase the risk of exploiting workers.

The threat of exposure and prosecution alone will be sufficient for many to revamp their operations. In some sectors, the predators may simply move operations offshore. In others, predators may be forced out of business. As noted above, it may serve the public interest to provide transition assistance or start up assistance for replacement businesses.

Undoubtedly, a significant percent of undocumented workers would continue to evade detection, but employers would be far less likely to exploit them. If the workers are making a fair wage, the "race to the bottom" has a lower limit and the negative effect on wages is reduced.

We have a right enforce immigration law and deport violators

There are situations in which our interests are best served by providing an alternative to deportation. Nevertheless, if it does not serve a public interest to provide an alternative we should not hesitate to deport those who violate immigration laws.

We have a right to enforce our immigration laws. When we shift our focus to predatory employers, we are not forfeiting that right.

Offering legal status to whistleblowers serves us in two vital ways -- it deters predatory employers and it gives authorities vital resources "on the ground" who are motivated to expose those who are not deterred.

Targeting predatory employers creates a new class of unemployable undocumented workers If we do not institute a program that offers an opportunity to achieve legal (employable) status to those who are displaced, the deportation and support costs are likely to rise to intolerable levels.

If we decide that minimizing competition for jobs is worth the costs associated with deportation, the number of families who are offered legal status could be limited by entering those who qualify a "lottery" of sorts. It may seem harsh to allow chance to determine who stays and who goes, but deportation must remain the default consequence of breaking our immigration laws.

Conclusion

Our underground economy makes the United States very attractive to people who are struggling to survive in their own countries. We can change the dynamics right now and virtually eliminate the underground economy, and in the process, minimize the incentive to enter this country unlawfully.


Saying no to the exploitation of workers is central to controlling our borders. Radically changing the rules of the game makes other aspects of controlling immigration more manageable, but it does not eliminate the need for them. We still need to do a better job of tracking the foreign nationals who come here to work, study, or visit. We still need to make our border with Mexico as impenetrable as possible, while weighing the costs against the benefits.

We cannot continue to hypocritically turn a blind eye to violations of our immigration laws or tolerate the exploitation of workers within our borders. As is often the case, committing to enacting and enforcing laws that that reflect our values is not just the right thing to do, it ultimately serves the common good.

[Sapphire Blue]

340. "this shit"?!?! "go back to Mexico"?!?! "this crap"?!?! YOUR soil?!?!

The sentiment in your OP sounds eerily familiar, brings back memories of the '60s... the 'love it or leave it' mentality of the rabid RW war supporters, the hate of the RW directed against anti-war protesters. They, too, wrapped themselves in the American flag... while thousands were being killed, injured, mutilated in Vietnam... but they were patriotic :sarcasm: Americans, so it was all good in their eyes.


Something I posted yesterday (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=775621&mesg_id=775621)...

Immigration issues heat up in Canada, U.S.
Monday, March 27, 2006

TORONTO -- Immigration issues reached a boiling point in Canada and the U.S. with a mass deportation of illegal construction workers over the weekend causing an outcry in one Toronto ethnic community, while south of the border, citizens rallied nation-wide against Washington's plans for immigration reform.

On Sunday, nearly two dozen Portuguese nationals in Canada illegally were put on planes at Toronto's Pearson International Airport and deported.

Another seven Portuguese nationals scheduled for removal did not appear for their flight Sunday, and there are reports that the Canadian government is poised to issue dozens of additional deportation orders in the next two weeks with as many as 100 households receiving notices by April 8.

(snip)

The president <bush>, working hand-in-hand with the business community that relies on cheap labor, is pressuring Congress to allow immigrants to stay in the country legally if they take a job that Americans are unwilling to do.

http://www.canada.com/globaltv/national/story.html?id=b8962577-78ff-4a69-8156-bd3068daff59

So when are we going to stop letting this divide us? When are we going to demand a living wage & decent working conditions for all workers?

When are we going to get off the damn plantation???

[JeffR]

347. For the love of God, Goddess, or Plain Old Humanity

Can everybody please just stop this?

Has anyone seen one person won over by an opposing viewpoint in one of these immigration threads?

Are so many people here just on board to make enemies out of fellow DUers? If I want to find new enemies, I'll stroll over to Frei Republik.

And yeah, fifty people can jump in and say, "If you wanted to see this thread die, why did you post on it?" Say what you will. I won't be dropping back into this particular thread. It was designed to be flamebait, and a lot of people with a lot of different POVs have just allowed themselves to get burned.

Now excuse me, everyone, I need some fresh air.

[d_b]

351. Booey fuckin' hooey.

[baby_mouse]

356. What a nice, big comfy, thread!

Just popping in to say hi! My, warm, isn't it?

Pass the nuts, someone.

[file83]

429. I'm enjoying it in my comfortable FIRE PROOF SUIT....

How about you?

[stickdog]

369. Remember the Maine!!!

You know, our boat we blew up to defend our Hearst-driven start of the Spanish American War ..

[Texaroo]

377. And the new battle cry is...

FORGET THE WMDs! Rings kind of hollow, though.

On topic - these kids are making themselves Hannity-fodder. Despite the sentiment, they are becoming a symbol that will be exploted by the Nazi bastards to "prove" that once again, liberals want to give this country back to the English. Or the Somalis. Or whatever they want to claim these days.

Locally, seeing the marches for a second day just starts reaking of truancy. They need to start marchingh in front of CHURCHES to show how the Republicans wanted to make Christian charity a FELONY!!!!

Come on folks - let's use these wedges upside their bigoted heads! Take it to them.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

373. Calm down, it's JUST A FLAG! It's not the actual country

I've never understood the reverential attitude that people have toward the American flag, usually, may I say especially when they don't respect the principles that it is SUPPOSED to stand for.

You're reacting with your grade school conditioning, not thinking with your head.

These protestors acts count as free speech, which is one thing that the American flag is SUPPOSED to represent.

The flag is not more important than the values it allegedly symbolizes.

[redherring]

379. As a legal immigrant I completely agree

with your post.

[gordontron]

462. hehe I like it

careful around here, you might get your head wacked off for telling jokes in a thread like this

[savemefromdumbya]

386. I can fly my own flag if I want to - it's a free country

You see a lot of Irish flags around here!

[Name removed]

546. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Generator]

389. I'll weigh in:WHERE our our protests?

I've never felt less patriotic NOW than in all of my 44 years. Seeing an upside down American flag? Ohhhh that's SO nasty. Please. Oh so scary. Mexicans are taking over. Please. These are kids. And they are putting the LEFT to shame.We have no leaders leading us into the streets while our constitution is being shat upon daily. Do you even read DU? Did you see that the "president" signed a bill into law that wasn't passed by the Senate? Shit, I don't even believe he was elected. YES. I could do with a few more upside down flags. And yeah I know the Mexican flag is your point. But what's happened to America seems four billion times worse from Iraq to Iran to the bullshit lies about 9/11. To the healthcare crisis and all we can't pay for because of the WAR. Immigration is like a debate from 1995. This is a whole new world. But I guess some people are still living in 1995 and the last shitty nightmare years never even happened.

[Beacho]

396. Oh jeez, get over yourselves

I wore the uniform and this upsets me waaaaaaahhhhhh!!!!!!!!

Well guess what, I also wore the uniform and what upsets me is that many people are in touch with their inner Archie Bunkers on this one.

You want offensive? I just moved down here to Dallas and one of the first things I saw was the state flag flying at the same height as the U.S. flag. That's just plain wrong.

But some latino kids, frustrated at being treated as aliens in their own land (Which is what this demonstration is about) make a demonstartive act, in a PEACEFUL manner, and so called 'liberals' freak out.

These people ARE amererican citizens and guess what? Many of these people wore the same uniform that YOU did!

I hate to be confrontational but I have really had it with hearing this kind of ignorant shit from people that should know better

On edit, why don't you read this, after you pull the flagpole out of your bunghole and realise that you are on the same side as these people and the real criminals are the the corporatist that have reduced the size of our rat cage and now are saying."lookie over there, SCARY BROWN PEOPLE!". Get your head in the game man.

Let's cut through the bullshit, shall we?

[goclark]

439. A+++ for Beacho ! You put the

letters to the keyboard on that one!

That is the issue in a NUTshell.

" ....you are on the same side as these people and the real criminals are the the corporatist that have reduced the size of our rat cage."

The real criminals are certainly NOT some teenagers that marched peacefully(considering the size of the protest) and let their voices be heard.

Love that link ~ it is a must read for anyone who wants to know the TRUTH on this issue.

Go beacho,go~~~~!!!!

[huskerlaw]

404. So then

I assume you're also against flag burning and you think the people here at DU with the American flag turned upside down should change their avatars.

It's called free speech, Ioo. Truly defending the Constitution means that you support people's right to do things that you don't personally agree with. Otherwise you're no better than the right wing nuts like Michelle Malkin.

[K-W]

406. How dare someone fighting for thier rights upset your nationalism!

You are the real victim here obviously.

[mondo joe]

430. Sorry, what rights are they fighting for?

I'd just like to get clear on that. Thanks.

[manic expression]

442. The right

to be treated as a human being. The right to a livelihood, the right to LIVE, the right to NOT be a felon for simply trying to LIVE.

I don't speak for the poster you are responding to, but that's my take on it. Would you like to assert that they have no rights? If so, I would like to tell you that they do, and that is exactly what they are fighting for.

[Inland]

443. Didn't you leave something important out?

The "in the United States" part? Or the "in the United States with the same rights as citizens" part?

It's a little much to say that they are "simply trying to LIVE". Foreign countries aren't a death sentence.

And it's a little much to ask whether "they have no rights?" They have lots of rights, even if illegal, here in the US, and the rights of whatever country they are coming from. The Sensenbrenner bill would attach jail to that, but right now, it's just deportation.

The discussion should be whether there is generous immigration or very limited immigration, not whether it should be enforced, and certainly not pretending as if there is a human right to immigration inherent in either wanting to be here or being here illegally.

[manic expression]

454. Not really

that's implied, since it's what we're talking about.

They should be able to live "in the United States". Period. They want to come here and work and lead a good life, and people are trying to deny them that out of greed, xenophobia, jingoism and worse.

They are simply trying to live, but they are now faced with deportation. Foreign countries, for them, are a sentence to abject poverty (largely thanks to the actions of the US and other developed countries...mostly the US, though). I would never sentence a person, a family, to that. Would you?

They have rights? That's good to know. So you would agree that shipping them out like unwanted chattle is disgusting and unreasonable and wrong then, right? By the way, it's not "just" deportation; it's so much more. Now, their lives are deemed a felony because of their location. Now, their access to a decent standard of life is deemed a felony. Now, all that is denied to them because of sick motives and intentions.

Right now, the discussion is about whether America accepts the fact that these people want to come and will come, if we will embrace that, provide for a better future, or if we will blindly reject an entire people, attempt to condemn them to poverty and injustice. That is the discussion.

[Inland]

455. So all that is needed is the desire to come. Do we send them bus fare?

After all, it seems that not only am I responsible for their poverty, but merely denying that I am responsible for their poverty is evil. How can I deny them bus fare? Or a stipend? After all, you don't suggest we let them come here and then just stay poor, it being our personal fault?

And with that, the assumption that, unlike me and my fellow Americans, all "they" want is to come here and work and lead a good life. I guess it takes a second generation after immigration to become complete and total assholes with nothing but sick motivations, and to deserve to lose a job to whomever happens to show up willing to work for a lower wage. See, you condemn people to a lower wage, alright. It's just you condemn the Americans, AND legal immigrants.

Needless to say, I disagree. I owe more to my fellow countrymen than to others, and the not strange thing is, foreigners feel the same way about their countrymen.

[manic expression]

525. That,

and more. If there were more avenues to get to the US legally, many would use them. However, there are few, and so they use the only option they have.

You may not be personally responsible for their poverty, but opposing their entrance is, in effect, keeping them impoverished. I suggest we let them come here and treat them like human beings, not like felons.

If you keep deeming them illegal aliens, they will lower the wage because working under the radar is the only thing they can do. If they are given at least some sort of status, and in so doing, decent treatment, that will not be as great of a factor. Furthermore, I am sorry that you cannot pick grapes anymore, hopefully you'll be able to be a migrant farm worker again soon...:eyes:

[Inland]

533. Opposing their entrance keeps them impovershed?

But then again, so does not getting them work, or not emptying my wallet.

All true.

But the same could be said for American citizens. They don't have work. They don't have living wages. They could use some bus fare. But instead of helping them, you actually want me to take the same money and pay for someone's travel to come and take their job. That migrant farm worker job for example. Yeah, it's not going to be MY job, but fact is your marvelous sense of concern for foreigners is limited to bus fare to take some American's job, and to drive down the wages that Americans who keep their job can demand.

Go roll your eyes at America's working poor, the ones that are going to actually pay for your charity work with job losses, low wages, and stressed social services. You don't treat them like felons, ture; in order to treat them like felons, you would have to recognize their existence. You don't treat them like fellow Americans, though.

So I guess your concept of fairness and equity is, we send the foreigners bus fare, tell them to come to America, get jobs, and raise kids who will become American citizens, at which time they will be Officially Americans, meaning that the fine liberals will bring in the next group of foreigners to take away their jobs, because citizenship means you come second. But there's still the Army, meaning that they can still give their lives as well as their jobs for you, and get the fuck out of the way for more immigrants. What a deal. That's not a country. That's not even a charity. That's just plain silliness.

[manic expression]

534. Yes, it does

Most illegal immigrants are not taking jobs that you would most likely use. However, the real point here is that if the immigrants were not illegal in the first place, they would not take sub-minimum wage jobs. If you feebily try to keep them out, and then refuse to acknowledge them once they're in, of course they are going to take under-the-table jobs, it's all they can do.

I'm not rolling my eyes at anyone. Outsourcing, not immigration, takes far more jobs that American citizens actually work. You are making believe that immigrants are at most fault for the plight of the poor and shrinking middle class of this country, when in fact, they are not and it is the wealthy that are.

When did I propose any program including a bus? Please don't put words in my mouth. If immigrants are flooding into America, the only way to really face the problem is to ensure that these people are not treated as felons, to make sure that they are not taken advantage of by big business, to try to help the situation in Latin America so that the demand for entry is less (as in support left wing governments) and other things. When was the last time you were picking grapes? How about mowing all of suburban America's lawns? They're not taking so many American jobs as you are pretending they are.

[Inland]

535. "You would most likely use"

Yepper, that's true again. Just as the poverty of foreigners doesn't affect me, either. Or you.

But they take someone's job. Changing the job from an illegal one to a legal one by making the person who takes it legal still means someone took it. Not from me, but from some American who, last I knew, didn't do a damn thing to you except be a fellow American, and the ones who don't lose their jobs find their wages depressed. And I don't give a shit that there are other things that make Americans lose their job. I'm talking about this one thing where you watch jobs go from Americans to foreigners solely out of the fact you feel more charitable to the latter.

And it's funny how the same arguments for helping out foreigners, you won't even apply to Americans. When I keep a foreigner out of this country, I CONDEMN him to poverty because he can't take a job from an American. Whereas if you let him in, it's only some faceless outsourcing that's at fault for the lost American job, not you.

And again, "when was the last time you were picking grapes??" Well, when was the last time you were an impoverished foreigner? It's liberal to care about the working man, as long as it's not an American. I had it right. All these people have to do is come to this country, become Americans, and THEN nobody will give a shit about them or their problems, and you will give away THEIR job and depress THEIR wages for somebody else.

If you want to help foreigners, take it out of your OWN pocket, at least in equal amounts as the poor guy who would want minimum wage to pick grapes. Get the government to cut a check and pay for it in your share of taxes. Don't fuck with the entire country out of some twisted concept of charity.

[manic expression]

536. Really?

the poverty of foreigners is supposedly affecting American citizens because of all the immigration it is causing. So which is it?

They take someone's job because they can and will work for less than the minimum wage, something a citizen can't compete with. If they are documented, that would be much less of a factor, as working under the radar would be much more difficult. Also, many immigrants are not taking jobs that Americans predominately work.

This argument is not about helping the poor in general. If I had my way, there would be full-throttle redistribution of wealth, so don't give me anything about not caring about the poor.

When you keep a foreigner out of the country, you are condemning them to poverty. You DO know that Mexico's economy is not exactly booming, right? Instead of treating them like wayward cattle, if we document them, make sure they are working jobs at a fair wage, that will negate the concerns you have.

Right, you never did pick grapes, nor did you do most (any) of the jobs that illegal immigrants are doing in this country. So all this outrage over some sort of dreamed up "theft" is largely paranoia and delusion. So much for the "problems" I don't give a shit about. Furthermore, I encourage acceptance of more immigration because I want a better standard of living for them. Your charge that I want them in America so I don't have to care about them is positively laughable. Please contemplate what you're typing, because it's ridiculous.

Do you see American citizens lining up to pick grapes? NO. Furthermore, I would raise the minimum wage, and make sure the immigrants are documented so earning sub-minimum wages would be more difficult. That's called dealing with the issue, not sticking your head in the sand and leaving human beings out in the cold like animals.

[Inland]

537. Yeah. Really. It's pretty undeniable.

I keep a Mexican in Mexico, I'm condeming him to poverty because why? Because he can't come to America and take a job from an American. But wouldn't I then be condemning the American to poverty? Yes, but really, who gives a shit?

Do you see Americans lining up to pick grapes? No. Only the most desparate would line up for that job. I suppose that when Americans get desparate enough from the competition from impovershed immigrants, they'll be in line too. But then wouldn't I be condemning Americans to be as poor and desparate as Mexicans? Yes, but really, who gives a shit?

My guess is that if anyone really cared about Americans, somebody would be ensuring a decent wage for Americans rather than worrying about whether illegals are being exploited. Would Americans pick grapes for a decent wage? yes, but really, who gives a shit? THIS discussion is how to get Mexicans a decent wage, not Americans.

Did I pick grapes or perform any of those low wage jobs? No, not me. Does that mean that the "theft" doesn't take place, is a delusion, is paranoia. No, it doesn't. It's just an implication that I shouldn't give a shit because it's not MY job. And I don't have to ask you if you pick grapes or are of a job that might be taken by cheap labor. I don't have to ask. I know full well that you are giving away jobs that only belong to some other American. But really, who gives a shit about them? A person is only left out in the cold like an animal if they are without a job and a foreigner. A person without a job and an American is, well, who gives a shit? That's a different issue, to be dealt with a different day, after we take care of the Mexicans.

I can't figure out what the American working man did to you to make you care less about him than a Mexican working man. In fact, I can't figure out why you leave out people who are from REALLY poor places, much poorer than Mexico. Even if Mexico is only fit for animals, I still owe Americans something. I don't know how you can go to a second generation immigrant and tell him that his parents were appropriate charity cases but now the party's OVER. My guess is, you only have this discussion with people who you can challenge with whether they are picking grapes this week. There are a few on DU who didn't find manual labor at a fair wage out of their experience, and not surprisingly, they don't think the jobs are fit only for Mexicans.

[manic expression]

538. You do

The illegal immigrants aren't coming here for spring break; they're coming here because they want to get out of dirt poverty. Half of Mexico is below the poverty line, so it is quite a condemnation. You keep repeating fallacy, immigrants would not steal jobs if we documented them, and the jobs they are working now are not usually taken by American citizens.

Yes, only the most desperate person would line up for that job. Who do you see lining up for that job? The very same people you endlessly attack. Oh, and yet again, immigrants who take those jobs are not stealing anything from American citizens.

We need to raise the minimum wage in this country. However, that doesn't change the fact that illegal immigrants ARE being taken advantage of, and should be given decent treatment. This discussion is how to treat people fairly, and that does nothing to wrong another group of people.

Picking grapes is a significant job for immigrants. It is not for citizens. That means that it is not leaving Americans out in the cold, while barring immigrants from America is doing it to them.

I can't figure out why you continue to spew insipid rhetoric and try to put words in my mouth. This isn't a see-saw, if you help one group, you're not punishing another. This whole thread is about second generation immigrants and how they are protesting against the very policies you blindly support. Try realizing that much first.

[Inland]

539. I didn't say they were coming here for spring break.

I said they were coming here for jobs, jobs that would otherwise be taken by an American. True, they are not usually taken by Americans. Somebody decided it would be better if Mexicans would be imported to work them, for less. It's not a significant job for Americans, but somehow you never quite get around to acknowledging why that is. Suddenly it all becomes very fuzzy, like one day, Americans just walked out of the fields and off construction sites and stopped gardening and stopped working on cars or slicing meat, all Taken Away. And then, somebody said, say, Americans have dropped their tools and walked off the job, and they just won't do them, we might as well do some charity work and help the Mexicans, it's win win.

Because the truth is, immigration at some level has got to take american jobs and depress american wages, but rather than defend your choice to help mexicans at the expense of americans, you simply refuse to admit there IS a choice being made. It's merely avoiding responsibility, or avoiding saying you don't care about Americans vis a vis Mexicans. I don't mind both admitting that it's a choice, and I don't mind admitting I feel I owe Americans, mostly becaue they feel they owe me too.

Your inability to face the result of immigration leaves to some bizarre and amoral logic. I deny a job in America to a Mexican, I've worked an act of undeniable cruelty. But nobody takes responsibility for the effect of letting Mexicans bid on American jobs. The depressed wages, the job loss, well, nobody's to blame or if they are, it's a completely different subject to be dealt with after the Mexicans get out of the hell that is Mexico. I assume that we then won't proceed to the same sort of priority of Guatemalans or TRULY poor nations next, but who knows? Frankly, Americans and their benefits don't show up anywhere on your screen at all, except to the extent that I am asked to admit it isn't MY job that's at danger, today.

If you want to help Mexicans, don't do it with someone else's job and wages. Cut a check. Ask the government to build a model factory in Mexico with charity money that comes out of taxes, rather than forcing American working poor and intake communities to bear the entire burden of your desire to uplift Americans.

[manic expression]

540. No

Mexicans have been working as migrant workers for a very long time. This isn't a recent trend. I don't think Americans have worked those jobs in a very long time, and that was before a lot of things like the strengthening of unions. Yes, big business does benefit from illegal immigration, but that can be stopped if we make documentation a priority instead of blind enforcement of laws that don't accomplish anything. Also, American workers are not feeling tremendous effects from this because of differences in occupation; outsourcing is a far greater problem.

Look, immigrants are going to get into the US. Anything short of building a 25 ft. steel wall, manned and guarded by 75,000 people, all the while making sure there are no tunnels or routes via water will not do anything (and even then, people will get across). You deport them, they'll try again, and they'll eventually succeed, or enough will. This doesn't help anyone, especially the American worker, as these immigrants now take jobs that are undeclared and under the radar so they don't get caught, jobs which pay next to nothing. That's a REAL loss, for the immigrants, for the American workers. Actually accepting immigrants in will allow immigrants to "win" while negating any ill effects on the American worker.

I'd like to remind you that American auto workers were not put out of work because immigrants took them; they were put out of work because the factories were moved to Mexico by American robber barons. Because of this, cities in Michigan are beginning to resemble the 3rd world. Just a kind reminder.

Really, this isn't a choice between one group or another. You can help immigrants while not hurting Americans. One of the ways you do this is by making sure the people who SHOULD NOT be gaining in this equation do not, those who own businesses. Last I checked, the American worker is being most hurt by those in the higher classes, not those in the lower classes; we need to concentrate on that if we want to solve that problem. Blaming the immigrant does absolutely nothing in this regard.

Many of the illegal immigrants ARE from Guatemala and other parts of Central America. One thing that is important to note is that the people who have saved up enough to pay for getting smuggled into the US do so by way of "coyotes". This is a one-time payment, if they get deported, the "coyote" will try again and again and again until they get in; it is almost guaranteed. Trying to catch them will not work. Trying to accept them the right way will work. It will work for the immigrants and for American workers.

[mondo joe]

458. Who is rejecting an "entire people"?

The US has many people applying for citizenship.

Should it have no restrictions whatsoever?

[manic expression]

526. It's far more

difficult to gain entry into the US if you are from certain countries than if you are from others. You connect the dots.

[mondo joe]

457. Does US citizenship play no role in the right to a livelihood in the

United States?

[Bridget Burke]

503. Now you're raising the bar.

Do you want to kick out all the holders of Green Cards, too? After all, they are not citizens.

[mondo joe]

509. Green card holders, like citizens, have entered the country

legally and have certain rights associated.

Is that too much to ask?

[rman]

476. you mean you don't know what the proposed immigration legislation is about

?
You don't know what these protests are about?

And yet you have made up your mind about it?

How about the right for illegal immigrants to receive healthcare?

[K-W]

545. Life, liberty and the persuit of happiness. EOM

[mdmc]

413. off with their heads

crime! terrra!

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

415. Outside Of The Immigration Debate Itself, The Flag Incident In Itself Is

extremely inappropriate in my opinion and I agree with you there completely. I do want to caution, however, that this is an extremely small subset of those protesting and there have been plenty who waved our flag proudly. I would caution against using this incident as an indictment against all those protesting, because I do not feel it represents the entire movement. I do, however, looking within just the narrow scope of this incident itself, agree with you that it is offensive.

[noamnety]

419. I don't care what flag the school flies

So long as the kids are being taught well, they have homes to go home to, they have food for dinner, and they have health care.

At the end of the day, that's what's important - not the colors of a scrap of fabric at the end of a pole.

[file83]

423. Personally, I'd rather see the American Flag being burned than have

another Nation's Flag (Mexico) raised over our nation's soil.

I'd rather see this...

"Freedom of Speech"

...than this:

"Act of War"

[Old and In the Way]

428. 50 High School kids doing a stupid thing threatens you?

Or is it a 3% segment of the total population of the US that bothers you? Welcome them and let them become Democrats. I think we have a hellavu lot more to be concerned about with the top .025% of the ruling class here than 3% of the people at the bottom of the ladder. But the Republicans appreciate you hammering on this issue here.

PS, I'm probably biased because my great-grandparents immigrated from Ireland and Canada.

[stepnw1f]

434. Whatever

fuckin brown human beings don't want to fly the American flag.... how dare they!?! :sarcasm:

They are here to take over..... more stirring up bullshit. Makes a great distraction though, isn't it?

[tjwash]

436. "your country" "your flag"?

What, does it have an X or a geometric cross on it?

[mike_c]

437. yep, you're on the same side as the right wing nuts....

Not much more to say than that. Know what bro'? I hope to spend my retirement in Mexico, or maybe even further south. I hope that by welcoming Mexican immigrants to the U.S., and joining them in their cultural pride, I might generate a little good karma for when I'm the immigrant.

[QC]

459. Joe McCarthy, is that you? n/t

[manic expression]

441. That 'shit'

as you call it is simply a group demanding something that is reasonable and justified. Yes, illegal aliens break the law, but do not be misled into thinking the legally right and the morally right are the same thing (Steve Biko quote). They want to come here, they want to work here and live and prosper here, and it is MORE than fair for them to attempt that, regardless of an unjust law.

"YOU WILL NOT raise a flag, any flag over the US flag on US soil."

Oh, really? I am right now, and there is NOTHING that should ever be done about it. You have no place telling anyone what flag they can and cannot fly, and furthermore, we have every reason and justification to show our demands for what is right, as well as our pride, as well as our disgust for disgusting policies. El Tri and other flags show that Mexicans are here and are NOT backing down because of jingoist and xenophobic people and their base beliefs. Nothing will force them to give up their heritage or what they deserve, including such misled, myopic rhetoric.

What is sick is the hatred that people are showing towards human beings who deserve a place here. What is sick is the blind adherence to ludicrous laws over the reasonable demands and justified actions of an entire people. That is what is sick.

[Gin]

444. I can't imaging myself "illegally" entering another country.....then...

"demanding" that government give me anything. I must be from another planet.

Beam me up Scotty!

[manic expression]

453. I can't imagine you

impoverished. I can't imagine you in a 3rd world country. I can't imagine you desperate to find work and a chance of decent living conditions. I can't imagine you in a country which has been greedily used by another country. I can't imagine you being threatened with deportation for simply trying to live and work.

Then again, I can't imagine you thinking or caring, either.

[Bridget Burke]

505. You can't imagine being a native-born American....

Who may be stopped in the street to show his Green Card just because of the way he looks?

Of course, citizens don't have Green Cards. But a small stay in jail & a talk to the judge is a minor inconvenience, isn't it?

[Bluebear]

446. Those pictures 'almost' made you cry?

Some high school kids protesting?

(PS, "toeing" the line, not "towing" but I digress :)

[bluestateguy]

448. I admit that a Mexican flag is probably not a good political strategy

But it doesn't enrage me as it appears to enrage you.

[WestSeattle2]

449. I can see why some are upset over these pics

but really, they are kids. I'm not going to lose any sleep over this. I know that many want to turn this into some kind of racial issue, but speaking for myself it isn't racial at all.

My objection to unlawful immigration, is that is depressing wages for low and lower middle-class wage earners, regardless of race. While I certainly feel compassion for those wanting to improve their standard of living by working in the US, by not immigrating legally they are lowering the standard of living for Americans in those wage brackets.

Is that fair to those people? Who is speaking up for them? Why are we allowing, hell, inviting a two-tiered labor market?

Below is an interesting read. While I don't agree with all of the writer's points, I do support his call to end this indentured servitude we're supporting.

http://www.tpmcafe.com/node/28172

[Marie26]

499. What a sensible post

What are you doing here? :)

[The Flaming Red Head]

450. You'd hate me I've been sitting here cheering on the French all day

gawd I love them.

[hopein08]

456. Yup, political hell froze over for me today when I agreed with Hannity...

and stated clearly that if I lived in Massachusetts, I would not be able to vote for Ted Kennedy.

But I live in Pennsylvania, so I'm screwed anyway.

[fujiyama]

465. You do realize

that Kennedy and McCain's bill is the best of all the other shitty alternatives right?

Do you also agree with the Sensenbrenner bill which punishes asylum seekers, and jails anyone for "aiding" an illegal immigrant including religious groups obligated to give aid to all those that seek it?

The Bush bill simply locks people into a state of slave wages...

Kennedy's bill is far from perfect, but I think it's more practical than the other nasty alternatives. Plus, it does fine them, require them to pay all back taxes, learn English, and it says they should have to wait behind legal immigrants (though this is where I'm unsure how it will work out).

But go back to agreeing with the likes of Hannity, Tancredo, Malkin and the like on this if you please.

[hopein08]

518. Oh, I realize that the Kennedy/McCain bill is the best of the bunch, but

Shit is shit, whichever way you choose to describe it.

I don't like any of the bills. And I do realize that nothing in politics is ever perfect. I am not that naive.

But there is quite a difference between the viewpoints of Sensenbrenner/Tancredo and Hannity/Malin. Here's why...

SENSENBRENNER AND TANCREDO ACTUALLY MAKE THE LAWS...HANNITY AND MALKIN ARE TALKING HEADS. Therefore, I can reluctantly find sense in what Hannity and Malkin say without it affecting anything.

Perhaps I should clarify something for you.

What I agree with say, Hannity, on is that the Kennedy/McCain bill is basically amnesty. Sure, it's not called amnesty. Sure, it purports to have all sorts of restrictions and requirements. But face it, it's amnesty. And amnesty is the rewarding of illegal behavior, whichever way you look at it. I think we need to secure the borders first and then concentrate on guest worker programs and such things as that.

But I do not believe pure isolationism and a 700 mile fence. I do not believe in punishing asylum seekers (my reason for that is that the people seeking asylum are going through the PROPER and LEGAL channels). No one should be punished for humanitarianism. But Americans and immigrants alike should be punished for breaking the standing laws of the country (regardless of whether or not I like the law).

My biggest problem with the Democratic position on this is (and I know it can be slightly confusing so please ask me to clarify if you don't understand what I'm saying)...

A. Democratic argument: President Bush broke the law by allowing the NSA wiretapping program and should be held accountable and prevented from contintuing such behavior.

Republican response: Don't worry about whether or not the law was broken because we can change that law lickety-split and then President Bush won't have broken the law and we can all live happily ever after.

B. Republican argument (granted, only partial): These people are breaking a law by crossing the southern border. They should be held accountable and not rewarded for such behavior.

Democratic response: Don't worry about the "illegal" immigrants because we can just change the law and then they won't be illegal and we can all live happily ever after.

Sound familiar? Sound like a contradiction?

It does to me and I am tired of the Democrats giving the Republicans ammunition to call them inconsistent.

(By the way, I knew I was going to get flamed for my post so thank you for not letting me down!:banghead:)

[YouthInAsia]

467. Yeah, I saw that shit today too.

I was highly pissed off. They dont care about this country.

[fujiyama]

469. A bunch of punk ass HSers

play a prank and people go apeshit? And yes, they are HSers, not adults. And being kids, they very likely are US citizens, concerned about the shitty legislation that passed congress (please understand what the Sensenbrenner bill is before supporting that piece of shit).

Wow, everyone is going crazy over the flag now? And no, the flag is NOT the constitution. Sir, as far as I know, when you took the oath to defend this nation, it was to the Constitution, not the flag, which is merely a symbol. I understand why you would find it offensive. And personally, I think it's a stupid fuckin way to protest.

What if this were a bunch of white kids instead of brown ones though, would people react the same way rather than spouting off alarmist bullshit about how we're "under invasion", being "threatened"...

I don't have even the slightest problem with people being upset by ILLEGAL immigration. It's a problem. Border security is a mess. And I don't agree with general amnesty because it does encourage breaking the law. I spent the money, jumped through the INS' hoops before I became a citizen and there are many more that aspire to it that are approaching it the right way (as the OP said about the "dance"), and don't think people should jump in and get it the easy way. We need to face it, but there is a point when being concerned turns into outright xenophobia and racism. Note, this isn't all targetted toward the OP. I understand the frustration. It's more toward those expressing outright support for Sensenbrenner and being angry at Kennedy without understanding his bill.

[podnoi]

471. With you. I agree

[SemiCharmedQuark]

472. So...you don't like US citizens protesting US policies?

Most of these kids are citizens...and they are protesting a US policy. What about that is wrong? How is this any different than say...flag burning. And how many liberals would cry about that?

As I said before, these principles of protesting represent our flag better than fabric ever could. You can disagree of course, in the method, in the principle. But that is what I believe.

And I for one and heartened that for once, for ONCE, someone is protesting. A real protest. Not just some big event that's been planned like a concert.

[LoZoccolo]

481. So...you don't like people disagreeing with protests?

The FReepers protested Clinton and called for his impeachment back in the late 90s too.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

522. As I said in the message, people can disagree

But it's people exercising their rights. I don't see the big deal. Even if you hate it, it's the sharp edge of freedom of speech.

[mondo joe]

508. People can protest as they see fit. Others can respond as they

see fit.

Freedom is a great thing.

How is it different than flag burning? IMO, flag burning is a way to protest US policy. To my thinking that is the message.

When you place the Mexican flag over the US flag what is the message you're sending?

Face it - what you do with the flag sends a powerful message.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

523. I believe that it is protesting US policy as well.

Since these are mostly american citizens protesting a proposed bill.

And yes, what you do sends a powerful message. But that never stopped flag burners.

[Swamp Rat]

474. The US flag has already been desecrated.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

475. Yeah...where's that old guy in the flag bodysuit with the flag fannypack

Did he bring tears to the eyes of all as well?

[Name removed]

551. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[slaveplanet]

479. They are falling for the trap

It has been set for them(and us), they took the bait, they feel empowered.
Wait till one of these marches gets out of hand and goes tribal. The trap will shut, the camps will be open for business, and everyones American dream will truly be over. Everyone but those at the top.

They have no Idea what they're truly dealing with.

We live in a veneer of civilization, there are as many gripes as there are people.

If people so foolishly believe that radio induced mass psychotic tribal frenzy cannot be whipped up in short order.

They better restudy the chapter on Rwanda.

The FCC has enormous power in who they pass out licenses too...these protests were not spontaneous. Sensenbrenner's bill, the announcement of the million man camps, The whole thing is being orchestrated by the enemies of the migrants and avg Americans alike.

And Bush's proposition just raised the heat on the burner.

[Name removed]

483. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[donheld]

485. If we hadn't sent all our jobs to China, India etc

We wouldn't have to worry about the mexican's coming to the US. As for their flag, quite frankly my dear, I dont give a damn.

[bleedingheart]

507. my mother is having bird over this issue

I don't know why but my liberal mother drew the line at seeing them raise the Mexican flag over the US flag...

[LWolf]

530. Which flag flew here first?

"My soil?"

Whose soil was it before it was "ours," and how did we aquire it?

Does might make right?

Whose soil will it be when the US empire has crumbled to dust?

Will humanity continue the fascism, the nationalism, the bullies rule-empire-driven road to destruction, or will we eventually evolve out of these attitudes?

That U.S. flag represents different things to different people. For some, it is a symbol of their nationalistic fervor. For others, a symbol of the principles and ideals embodied, if never perfectly realized, in the U.S. constitution. And for some, it is the symbol of empire, the symbol of a bully, or the symbol of hypocrisy.

Maybe it all depends on your personal history. It's always easier to be judge and jury for those living outside your personal experience than it is to put yourself in their shoes.

Personally, I see both sides of the border, both sides of the fence, and many sides of this issue. I don't find a single "position" expressed by anybody on any side that seems "right" to me. I'm not offended by people protesting what's wrong, even if I can't agree about what's "right."

[lies and propaganda]

543. Its a Distress flag when hung that way

I couldnt agree more.

[Name removed]

544. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Robb]

547. OK then, let's give Malaysia back to the Dutch.

Or what's your statute of limitations?

[Name removed]

549. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Robb]

552. Uh huh

Welcome to DU.

[Marie26]

550. Will this thread ever die?

Just when you'd forgotten about it, it rises zombie-like from the thread grave. Please, let it rest.

[seg4527]

553. it's a flag

seriously. let's get a grip. there was a time, in the halls of the public schools, where the fear and pride of it was drilled into me. now its' kind of a meh thing. i remember driving down the streets of my small town after 9/11 and seeing the whole street for the first time lined with american flags. i figured, if that's what makes people feel good or big or strong or whatever, fine, even if it's silly.

i've probably held an upside down american flag, marched under an upside down american flag, been friends with people with upside down american flags stitched into their clothing, and with my next coat may even make it a DIY one with a bunch of neat insignias on it. it's no big deal.

Bush and this government shit on the American flag every single day....am I going to let a few kids holding it upside down bother me when there are actual REAL PROBLEMS with this country and what it is doing to its people and the world? Hell no.