What would happen if all the illegal immigrants were forced to leave the U

[Saphire]

What would happen if all the illegal immigrants were forced to leave the US? I work in the construction industry, and it has me wondering. Most of the workers here are probably illegal. They are out there roofing houses in the middle of July for $6.00 an hour. There are also, framers, tile workers, landscape workers, painters, plumbers….you name it, all working for $6.00 an hour. If they are all sent back, do you think Americans will do the work for the same price. No, I don’t think so.

Now the roofing, concrete, tile, framing companies will have to charge the homebuilder more for the same work, and who do you think will pick up the tab???? Me and you, that’s who! Now, with all the added expense of building a home, I will pay more, and I can’t afford it. What happens when the homebuilding business collapses???? Where will all of us work??? The same could be said about the agriculture business, the farming business, the restraint business. I have said all along, that the US economy depends on these illegal workers, and the govt does not really want to stop it. Even now, we are bargaining with these people….what other country in the world bargains with it’s illegal aliens???? We want and need them here, and in the end, that’s just what we will get.

[AGKISTRODON]

1. Frankly

I am sort of tired of people who refuse to work just because they don't like the available jobs.
I did too many dirty, unpleasant jobs myself to feel sorry for anyone afraid to get their hands dirty.

[Heidi]

6. To be fair, many companies don't _want_ legal workers.

Illegal workers, faced with language barriers and the threat of deportation, are much less likely to complain about unsafe working conditions, demand fair compensation or go union.

[havocmom]

14. Frankly, the only people getting their hands dirty in the OP

are the builders who hire illegals for $6 an hour to do skilled manual labor which legitimately pays much more (or used to).

There are plenty of US citizens and LEGAL immigrants who used to have construction jobs and would like them again. But big builders and developers want bigger and bigger profits so they will cut costs, often by hiring (or hiring some other guy to hire) illegal labor. They don't pay the same wage. They don't pay the same (or in some cases, ANY) of the payroll taxes employers pay, and they often do not pay into workers comp.

It is more than just the wages they are making extra profit on. They are making extra profit by stiffing the rest of us on what their share of payroll taxes should be.

I don't feel sorry for people who are afraid of getting their hands dirty doing FAIR work for FAIR wages and LEGAL working conditions. I definitely do not feel sorry for employers who get their hands dirty exploiting and abusing others for exorbitant profits.

[mitchum]

34. Thanks for the cheap labor conservative talking point

[oscar111]

37. bad jobs shouldnt be expanded in number

you suffered, but that is no reason to say "ok, now all you suffer too"

no progress in that approach

[ausus]

121. CESAR CHAVEZ informed on Illegals

That's right; Cesar Chavez used to be in constant dialogue with immigration in those days and encourage them to deport illegal alien agricultural workers, and not because he was a rat, he had a responsibility to his union comrades and he understood very well the dynamics of the labor market: an endless supply of labor means lower wages for workers. This is the truth.

In the early 1960's when the U.S. ended the bracero program - a guest worker program that imported Mexicn labor to work in US agriculture - the wages of farm workes went up 40% in 1 year. Now you tell me that the endless flow of labor doesn't suppress wages.

[Heidi]

2. The price of meat also would go through the roof, for one thing.

The meatpacking industry is notorious for relying on imported labor. I know of at least large packer that actually has _advertised_ for labor along the Texas/Mexico border, and provided housing for the immigrants once they arrived. To recoup their costs, that packer garnished employees' wages at a very high percentage, made them pay for their own safety equipment, and it was company policy to contest _every_ claim for worker's compensation.

Whether we like to admit it or not (donning flame retardant suit) we Americans enjoy many perks at the expense of illegal immigrants. I say give them amnesty and pay every worker in the US (regardless of country of origin) a living wage. We'll just have to get used to paying a realistic price for meat, among other things.

[liberal N proud]

7. Prior to Ronnie Reagan the meat industry employed US citizens

Paid them a decent wage and meat prices were lower than they are now.
When the union busting happened in the Reagan years, those High paying blue collar jobs disappeared and the prices did not drop one cent. In fact the quality of processed meat dropped while the prices increased.

[Heidi]

13. Yep.

Meatpacking once was considered a good blue-collar job in towns like Omaha. In my view, the blame lies with the greedy bastards who exploit immigrant labor pools, and with the politicians (like Reagan) whose palms were greased by anti-union despots.

[enigmatic]

50. Union Busting to get cheap labor

from people who have the threat of deportation over their heads if they talk back or demand fair wage; that's how the cheap labor conservatives have broken the economy.

It's a nightmare all the way around..

[Hubert Flottz]

74. "people who have the threat of deportation over their heads"

There is a word for people like you describe...SLAVE!

[enigmatic]

110. Absolutely

You got it.

[Spider Jerusalem]

53. Er...but...you live in Switzerland.

Which is one of the most expensive places to live on the planet. So obviously you aren't 'we Americans'.

And that raises the interesting question of how many 'perks' people in the EU enjoy as a result of undocumented workers from Eastern Europe (particularly the area of the Balkans) and Turkey...from what I understand the numbers are significant, although perhaps not at the same level as the US...and the undocumented workers are doing the same sorts of jobs there that illegal immigrants in the US do. So how much MORE would you pay for Valencia oranges, or a meal in a restaurant, or a night in a hotel, if the fruit pickers, kitchen workers, and cleaning staff weren't mostly undocumented migrants getting paid under the table?

Glass houses, you know.

[Heidi]

90. Er...I'm a US citizen.

I was born in Arkansas and lived for 15 years in a meatpacking town in the Midwest. The price of meat in Switzerland_is_ through the roof, because fair wages are paid and the workplaces are safe.

Switzerland isn't a member of the EU, by the way.

[Spider Jerusalem]

94. Sorry...

the neutrality thing slipped my mind for a moment when I wrote that. Absent-mindedness. But somehow I rather doubt that ALL of the consumer goods and foodstuffs you use are of Swiss and not EU origin, so my point still applies to some extent. And you may be a US citizen, BUT if you've lived in Switzerland and not the US for some time, you can't say 'we Americans enjoy many perks at the expense of illegal immigrants', because that 'we' doesn't include you, as a nonresident, especially NOT in the sense you meant it.

[Heidi]

97. Oh, but I _can_ say that,

since I know it to be a fact. In fact, I could say it whether I knew it to be a fact or not, since state-side-residing US citizens have no monopoly on free speech. I'm not trying to be cranky with you, SJ; I'm just pointing out that you don't get to edit my posts until you have a little moderator thingy by your name. :hi:

[Spider Jerusalem]

99. Sure, you can say it...

but 'we' implies that the speaker is a member of the group being mentioned (in this case, not Americans but more specifically Americans who pay less for food thanks to underpaid illegal immigrants in the US meat industry). So, again, 'we' is pretty clearly not you.

[Heidi]

100. Whatever.

I am a native-born US citizen who has benefitted from the perks afforded by cheap, illegal labor. If you don't like that I'm a US citizen living abroad, staying abreast of what goes on in my native country and expressing my views about those issues, that's fine with me. :shrug:

[Critters2]

56. I don't eat meat because of the industry's abuse of workers

If we'd all behave ethically, industries that don't would suffer.

[Marie26]

61. Not to mention fruit & other produce. nt

[liberal N proud]

3. The grass would grow really high in suburbia

And the fruit and vegetables would rot in the fields

But worst of all, It would be difficult to get a good Mexican dinner.

[Critters2]

57. Our local Mexican restaurant is wonderful,

and is owned by legal immigrants. There are legal immigrants in this country.

[TrueAmerican]

4. I guess you and you're company

would just have to pay legal Americans a fair wage. The big housing corporations will just have to cut their profit margins.

[Heidi]

10. Not only pay fair wages, but provide a safe workplace

and abstain from subtle intimidation of workers who want to organize. Illegal immigration offers _many_ perks for many industries, and we regular Americans benefit by extension (cheap meat is a good example).

[Saphire]

22. you suppose they would cut their profits??? I don't.

[Cobalt Violet]

5. When the system depends on wage slavery, it deserves to collapse.

Housing prices have gone UP regardless of who is doing the work.

[acmejack]

8. The price of labor in the cost of fruit & vegetables is very small.

They could raise the wage to ten dollars an hour and it would only affect the price of a head of lettuce by about three cents or so the guy on C-span this morning said(Washington Journal, second hour)

[Cobalt Violet]

18. That would be Steven Camarota.

http://www.cis.org/

[Inland]

9. I think it's a huge question for academics.

One assumes that some industries would lose a lot of cheap labor, that labor costs would go up because legals would be able to demand higher prices, and so would prices for some things. Then the question is, are we ocay with that?

We always know that higher wages means something about end prices. I'm willing to pay a lot more for agricultural and housing in order to boost American wages and the wages of those who respect our laws enough to obey them on the way in.

[Heidi]

17. Several academics have looked at this question.

http://www.kansaspress.ku.edu/bonfro.html

http://www.kansaspress.ku.edu/stuany.html

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0534613039/102-5264433-7364956?v=glance&n=283155

[Inland]

91. If someone could figure out specific levels of immigration

on the cost of living...it's probably too complicated. Maybe everything becomes either "joining family" or "labor shortage" H1 B type immigration. I don't know.

[Minnesota Libra]

11. I don't agree that Americans wouldn't do jobs Mexicans have, that.........

....is just a convenient argument used by many to justify their views.:puffpiece: Most Americans want to work and take care of their own families. As it is now some Americans work two and sometimes three $6.00 an hour jobs to provide for their family - so that argument simply doesn't stand up to reality.

[Arkansas Granny]

36. I agree with you on the job issue. Where I live, many of the jobs

that are being taken by immigrants (and I don't know if they are legal or not) have been done, until recently, by people whose families have lived in the area for generations. It doesn't seem to be so much that Americans won't do the jobs as the fact that the employers have found that the immigrants will do the jobs for less pay and fewer benefits. If an employer can hire someone and pay them under the table they save even more money since they don't have to pay matching Social Security taxes and other employment taxes that are borne by the employer alone. Some employers in this area, as I am told by reputable sources, look for illegals because they can be exploited much easier that American workers or those immigrants who are in this country legally.

[Minnesota Libra]

39. You got it!! nt

[Bridget Burke]

12. Quite a few here stress their concern for The American Worker....

As the reason they oppose illegal immigration. But their previous posts show no such concern for labor. None, as far as I can tell, are Union members.

The corporations enjoy globalization. All the workers of the world will suffer unless they unite. Whether the worker is an outsourced programmer in California or an underpaid phone tech assistant in Mumbai. Whether the worker is an underpaid Mexican in Mexico--or in Texas.

[PsN2Wind]

51. I'm concerned for the American worker

and while now retired, I've belonged to the Laborers union, United Brotherhood of Slate, Tile and Roofers, Amalgamated Meat Cutters and Butcher Workers, and The Maintenance of Way employees.
Now you list yours.
I'm somehow very doubtful that you are in a position that would be threatened by the import of labor, if you have a job. Hell have you ever even worked?

[Critters2]

58. I've asked this at least three times,

with no answer...so, again, which union do you belong to?

[PsN2Wind]

71. You seem to stress your concern for every worker except

"The American Worker". I don't understand the screw my fellow citizens attitude but you seem to have it.
When you gonna list all those unions that YOU have been a member of?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

15. You have hit the nail on the head.

The painful truth is that without the low priced labor the immigrants provide the economy in this country would truly be on the rocks. Inflation would be in the double-digits and wages would not possibly keep up with the cost of living.

Anybody willing to pay $10 a lb for tomatoes? Think medical care is high now? Wait 'til the hospitals have to pay the janitors and bedpan handlers $15 per hour.

Think the few corporations still producing anything worthwhile will stick around to pay high wages instead of moving overseas? Not if they want to survive.

There is no simplistic solution like "send them home".

[Cobalt Violet]

20. Bullshit.

[luckyleftyme2]

21. BUSH'S LATEST BOO BOO!

WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IS THE FARMERS WOULD HAVE TO PAY A DECENT WAGE. here we are supposedly in a battle to secure our borders from terrorists;and now he wants to let them in.
the fact is the crops won't rot. the middle man won't be able to make a 100%+ on the farmers back.
example: they paid .10cents a watermellon in the field 10 years ago and they sold in the store for 4-7 dollars. the money is there to pay the worker,and the farmer. wake up america,they ain't gonna give up the crop.
lettuce sells for .10 cents a head and sells for .99-1.99=the money is there.
tomatoes sell for .30 a lb,they retail for 2.50 -how many does a trailer truck haul=your being snookered!
i live in north-east. many of my friends are x-country truckers. it's greed why they don't pay the worker!
who owns wal-mart?

[gollygee]

16. Wages would go up

there would be more competition for laborers and wages would go up.

My only problem with illegal immigration is that this country uses it as an excuse to have slave labor. I say if the gov't decides to let them stay, fine, but employers should be forced to meet any employment laws for them that there are for anyone else - ie insurance, minimum wage, etc.

[mmonk]

23. All you have to do to make wages rise

is to enforce current labor law.

[gollygee]

25. So long as they are considered "illegal" that won't happen

I'm all for making them legal workers, but the Republicans want to make it legal to pay them slave wages. I say make them legal and like you said enforce current labor law.

[mmonk]

27. That would definitely take the issue to a better level.

[xchrom]

19. i'm tired of the whole thing -- i'm in cali

and frankly i think it will be a cold day in hell before we are cut off from mexico --

someone was complaining the other day -- do we want to be called mexifornia? WE ARE MEXIFORNIA! -- and always have been.

skilled, trained european immigrants make 20% more in wages than native americans -- and put pressure on native born americans NOT to move up the wage scale.

do we get outraged at that crew next?

[OKNancy]

24. I can speak to this, since my husband is also in construction

What would happen is that the construction businesses that now go by the law, who pay a fair wage, who pay employer's share of FICA/Medicare etc. would be on a fair footing.

It is awfully hard to bid a job when you pay your workers $15.00 an hour and deduct taxes and pay employer's share when you compete with a person who pays cash under the table at $6.00 per hour.
That is what is happening with the construction trades.

Yes, you would have to pay more for your roofing job, your painting. So what?
If everyone cheated, we would all pay less for everything. That doesn't make it right, or legal...or even fair to the immigrant who works for shit wages and lives twenty to a house.

Edit to add: What I would like to see is the immigrant be on a fair footing too. They would have a real social security card and make the same wage and pay taxes like the non-immigrant.
( I've see a few DUers say that illegal immigrants pay taxes, but that would only be true for sales tax. In the construction trades, they do not pay federal or state income taxes. They stay here three or six months and get paid cash - from my own personal knowledge anyway)

[DBoon]

28. I never understood people who low-bid roofing

or other critical home repairs.

This is something you will have to live with for years. It is your biggest investment and your home.

Why wouldn't someone pay more for a quality job?

We tend to avoid low-ball bids on home repairs for that reason - I just don't trust the quality.

A botched home repair is NEVER worth saving a few dollars.

[OKNancy]

31. True. My experience is with

paint crews. Painting on new homes takes less skill. SO what has happened is that the new home builders sub-contract illegal crews, and the "legal" paint contractors have gone into quality home remodeling ( fancy finish work, etc.)to stay alive. It's unfortunate because the "legal" fellow no longer has crews working new homes where the younger fellow can learn the skills of the trade.
In the olden days, you started with new home skills, then learned specialty work, then fine (artistic) work.

[luckyleftyme2]

29. "DUBYAS" LATEST SPIN

SPEAKING AS THE PUPPET FOR BIG BUSINESS,DUBYA'S LATEST MISSION IS TO OPEN THE BORDERS TO HELP THE RICH TO CONTINUE TO HIRE CHEAP LABOR AND HUGE PROFIT MARGINS.
aprox ten years ago a trucker friend of mine bought watermelons for .10cents a piece and they were retailed at 4-7 dollars apiece.
tomatoes go for 30-50 cets a pound and retail for 2-2.60,lettuce ,potatoes ,etc. etc.
the money is there to pay the farmhand and the farmer. the cut has to come from the middleman and the retailer.
this is where the real problem is.mark ups of 50 t0 1ooo%.
and what about all this money for homeland security to shore up our borders? opps. thats right
greed of the right comes first.

[DBoon]

26. we would pick up Bud empties instead of Corona

after hiring someone to paint our house

And during the work, we'd have to listen to country & western instead of norteno

[blindpig]

30. The cost of labor would go up.

Sprawl will be greatly slowed as the real estate bund can no longer reap hugh profits based on cheap labor. The cost of produce will rise to partially reflect its' true cost. The working poor and working folks will be payed more. Growth of the economy will slow or stop, just as well because the notion of an eternally growing economy is absurd and not based in reality.

$6 an hour for bricklayers, roofers, etc is obscene. Most of my customers are low income and many of them have been displaced in the job market by the influx of immigrants.

Where will all of us work? Well, without the illegals there will be more work in what construction the market will bear. There will be more renovation and repair work, more difficult and requiring greater expertise, but work still. Push come to shove some will have to change careers, as I have had to several times in my life. It may be up to the government to promote a sustainable job market.

Disruptive and difficult but not impossible. We may have to make due with less gewgaws and crap that we don't really need(second car, cell phone, McMansion), but that is for the est. More, more, more is the philosophy of the cancer cell.

[mitchum]

32. People would have to pay more for their McMansions, lazy suburban...

fuckheads would have to mow their own lawns, ninnies would have to bring their brats to the tennis court, clean their own goddamn houses, and a million other things...

[elehhhhna]

33. Houston area it's more like 10 an hour, cash...and no,

most Americans will not work 12 hour days in 100 degree weather.

These folks work their asses off.

[oscar111]

35. PARALELLS MIN WAGE ARGUMENTS: Cheap labor gone, sky not fall

in 'fifty, the minimum wage was fifty cents or so.

It rose a lot since then, and the sky did not fall, the economy did not crash.

higher wages come partly from trimming the profit gravy to the Bossman. IF need be, some industries can be subsidized .. like we do to nuclear power plants. Subsidize food... a good idea to the point of ... free basic food for all.

isolated companies that arent able to up wages to american levels, should vanish and the customers will drift to the more effecient isolated companies down the block.

There are NO jobs americans "dont want", if they pay american wages. It is a slick lie to claim we do not want jobs.

Mexicans can do the jobs cheap since their families still live in dollar-a-day Mexico.. and the guys up here are living twenty to a barracks. Such a thing as having the family down in Mexico is not possible as the future of our american middle class.

Another way mexicans do it all, is that many are .. i speculate.. bachelors. So they can work cheap. Live twenty to a barrack.

RW'ers will say "why dont lazy americans also live in work barracks"? To which i say, "is that the worker's paradise you Republicans want for our middle class , for their entire lives?"

In short: The GOP is destroying our middle class.

as Lou Dobbs headlined it all.

GENTLY SEND THEM ALL BACK
We must gently send all illegals back. Gently, since they are desperate and not really to blame for the awful mexican economy. Then act to help elect a mexican prez who will create a Jobs for All program there.. as my sig link proposes for here too.

JFA here, can inspire JFA in mexico. Keeping the illegals here would just keep on with moving joblessness from mexico to our own middle class. Not good.

NO RIOTS
The mexicans will not riot. They will soon realize that rioting will anger the americans... and make the push to expell them, a faster push.
Their ethnic newspapers will point that out.

Gently send them back, to employ our fourteen million jobless... The job shortage is documented by the Dept of Labor, surprisingly. See my sig. Send them back humanely, gently. No confiscation of wealth.

[snappyturtle]

123. I can't agree with you more.....

than I do. If America stays strong then we can help the Mexicans but if we become weak allowing 20 million illegals (Lou Dobb's number)to stay, we are of no help to others much less ourselves. We must keep in mind that illegals are illegal! We must also remember the illegals standard of living here isn't great-- although,better than what I've seen in Mexico--and that they send much of their earnings back into Mexico. THAT does not help our economy.

Can you imagine what would happen if we turned the tables and went into Mexico illegally? I doubt that it would be tolerated.

President Reagan's administration orchestrated a fine for employers for each illegal hired and then complemented the system with lack of enforcement. He "appeared" to be doing something but aided the business world with huge profits--it's the repub way, isn't it?

The bureacracy of a guest worker program will be just and only that. Another bureacracy to fill with political hacks. Remember the prescription drug program's projected costs? I wonder if the administration has any clue as to what the real cost of a guest worker program will be? What I haven't heard is a projected costs for permanent "exit" visas?

It's a sad story to say the least---sad for all.

[CanonRay]

38. Sounds like you support labor exploitation

Maybe the roofing company would have to offer a living wage. What a crime that would be. Maybe if we have to pay more to build a house, there won't be so many McMansions going up. Gee, the company might have to offer medical insurance to attract skilled workers. Maybe there would be jobs again for those who don't go to college. Maybe they'd form unions! Oh, how socia!list! Maybe all these workers who were now paid a decent wage could afford houses themselves! (See Henry Ford, Model T).

[zbdent]

40. I heard one reference on the radio where a businessman complained

that, if he couldn't use the cheap labor, he'd be forced to buy a MACHINE to do the work . . . ooooh, "I'd have to spend money!" . . . wow . . . I guess that the high gas (for that matter, cigarette) prices have really shown how America will buckle down and not buy things once the prices go up . . . I mean, you just can't find an SUV out there on any of the highways these days . . . look at all the economical cars just clogging the highways where the mass transit vehicles aren't able to pack any more people in like cattle . . .












in case somebody didn't get it - :sarcasm:

[DBoon]

41. He SHOULD buy a machine

that is how technological progress comes about

The Roman Empire, despite their impressive achievements, could never have an industrial revolution because slaves were cheaper than machines. They had developed simple steam engines, but never used them for more than novelty effects. Why bother when you had slaves?

Cheap labor is a drug on our economy. Our addiction to cheap labor will have the same result as a junkie's need for heroin. It will cripple then destroy us.

[Strelnikov_]

59. It Is Also How The Standard Of Living Is Increased

Through increased productivity and upgrading to 'higher value' work. Operating a more productive machine over predominately manual labor driven process.

[porphyrian]

42. $10 heads of cabbage.

Construction costs quintupling over night. The impossibility of finding fresh anchos outside of big cities or the SW.

[Cobalt Violet]

44. That's just not true.

Did cabbage ever cost $10.00 a head?

[porphyrian]

68. Not yet.

However, I know that the nature of corporations is to pass any additional costs on to the consumer rather than cut into the profit margin. When they are no longer able to pay illegals $2 an hour to pick cabbage and instead have to pay $6 an hour, the cost of cabbage isn't going down.

Don't disregard this as a real consequence just because republicans are using this as an excuse to do nothing.

The way to stop illegal immigration is to punish those that hire them swiftly and severely. But don't pretend they won't pass the cost they're not paying by exploiting illegal labor on to the consumer rather than eat the loss.

[Critters2]

60. BUT everyone would be making better wages,

so we could afford more expensive cabbage--which would NOT reach $10 a head.

And if you think exploitation of workers is a fair price to pay for cheap cabbage, you're not what I call a progressive.

[porphyrian]

69. By Point:

Right.
You don't know what cabbage will cost any more than I do.
Good thing I don't, but thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt.

[Critters2]

73. Even if it reached $10 a head, which it wouldn't,

the improved economy would make a $10 head of cabbage within more people's reach.

Besides, you don't have a guaranteed right to cheap cabbage.

[porphyrian]

76. Uh, yes, I am entitled to cheap cabbage. So there. - n/t

[Critters2]

79. You're on the wrong website

This is a Democratic board...you remember Democrats, the party of working Americans.

[porphyrian]

88. Yes, I am one. You're the one who seems to have forgotten.

You're pointing fingers unnecessarily and offensively, and you need to get your facts straight before you make yourself look stupid.

[QC]

96. Speaking of getting facts straight...

Labor is a very, very small portion of the cost of produce, so paying workers decently would not lead to $10 cabbage.

[porphyrian]

117. Aside from exaggeration, what else do you have trouble understanding?

What the hell is wrong with all of you? I feel like I've been taking crazy pills.

[QC]

118. "I feel like I've been taking crazy pills."

Well, that would explain a lot, wouldn't it?

[paul_fromatlanta]

107. We'd import cabbage for far less.

[Kansas Wyatt]

43. Houses didn't get built before the ILLEGAL crews came along?

Guess Americans lived in overpriced huts, before the illegals came along to build McMansions.

Bullshit, American construction workers will work for a fair wage, but they cannot afford to work for the cheap slave wages that have forced them out of their craft. Keep advocating illegal labor, and watch the blue collar worker, who can no longer afford to compete with illegal workers in his craft, vote against those advocating for the illegal worker. Democratic Party, keep on wondering why working people vote against their 'best interests.'

[bluedog]

45. many of the farm picking jobs now have machinery

to do the work....I checked some sites and sure enough there are machines to do it......this would cut down on the production force needed ..but the businesses don't want to pay the money for the equipment.

[Ron Mexico]

46. I have to ask you to speak for yourself...

...because your "we want and need them here" is not something I agree with on either count.

I work in the construction business too - or at least I used to, but now I can't find work even for the $7-8 an hour that illegals get where I live. So it's temp jobs and night school for me.

According to a number of studies I've read, to include the University of Iowa's "How Much is that Tomato in the Window," the price of agriculture with legal labor would go up less than 5%, regardless of season. Labor is not a major part of overhead in any of the industries you mention.

When I read these "sky is falling" predictions of crashing markets and $25 heads of lettuce, I swear that I'm listening to a Republican trying to explain why unions are killing our economy and how paying a living wage would cause a repeat of 1929 on Wall Street. Then there's all the money we pay for social services for people here illegally, such as education, health care - and don't even start me on the dozens of hospitals we've had to close because of unpaid medical services to illegals (BTW, if you ever break a leg or have a heart attack in Mexico, you're not entitled to emergency care, paid or unpaid).

The only thing you wrote that I agree with is that the government doesn't want to stop it. I'll never understand why that is, though, since despite the rift between Democrats on this page and Repugs on their Etch-a-Sketch pages, I have yet to see ANYONE deny that the majority of Americans have real problems with illegal immigration and want more done. I don't want illegals here. I don't think the economy depends on them at all - instead I believe that corporate America has convinced us of that and of all of the jobs Americans "won't do" (construction, for instance?) - and if the economy DID depend on millions of violations of immigration law, then we need to tear things down and start over.

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who wants to play by the rules is welcome. If America has so much more opportunity, asking people to register is not unreasonable. Waiting period and red tape? Tough shit. Nobody is entitled to a job here and a fast track to living here just because their own country is poor, we can't absorb every poor person, and nor should we try. I have no sympathy for anyone who blows off our immigration law for their convenience, none.

[bluedog]

47. Our illegals here in Fl get $10,000 and $12,499 per year.(no tax)

The average farmworker makes between $10,000 and $12,499 per year. many live in the same housing together..........there is no round-up or crack down unless one files a complaint or an illegal gets picked up for a traffic violation....One of the Reps in Congress Putman.his family owns a farm where they hire illegals.wonder why hes against the bill..this is why........this article is from Fl..its a few years back and I'm sure its gotten much worse......

http://www.theledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050522/NEWS/505220407/-1/NEWS21

[mzmolly]

48. I'd rather pick up the tab frankly. I spend my money at UNION grocery

stores because I want to support a living wage.

I REFUSE to enjoy the "benefits of exploiting workers" because I might save a buck.

Do we want a middle class or not?

[PsN2Wind]

49. Oh yeah, Sure, lady of texas

we all want to be sure you can get your cheap house.
You failed to mention that the CEO of KB Homes last year had a compensation package worth $43,000,000. Count the zeros and tell me they need cheap labor.
Nothing like importing labor to cheaply fill the jobs that can't be exported.
It's unseemly to whine about people being paid what the job is worth. I used to be a journeyman roofer and I'll bet that you wouldn't stand on the roof and watch a guy work for what they were paid then, much less now.

[Saphire]

52. do you really think the CEO of KB homes is going to let go of some

of that big $$$ just so I can afford his crappy home??? Hell no! KB will raise the price of a house. And excuse me for wanting affordable housing. I make about 18,000.00 per year. I guess rich peps like you can afford 2-3 hundred thousand dollar homes, but this lady sure can't. I'm not saying it a good thing or a bad thing, just saying that's how it is whether we like it or not.

[PsN2Wind]

54. KB Homes wouldn't go out of business if they had to pay

scale but the CEO might have to try to learn to live on 6 or 8 million a year. Yet your gripe seems to be with someone attempting to make an honest living rather than the CEO's exorbitant pay.
Hey lady just get a better paying job, that's evidently how you feel about those that used to make a decent living in construction. If you can't make it on $18,000/year move up!!!!
Ain't nobody owes you a cheap house.

[Cobalt Violet]

115. Houses were cheaper when Americans built them.

[PsN2Wind]

116. In price

more valuable in quality.

[Cobalt Violet]

119. Yep, that's what I meant to say. n/t

[Critters2]

65. The policies that encourage illegal immigration also drove down

your wages, and everyone else's. Higher wages for all workers would benefit you. You need to take the long view.

[countryjake]

81. Do you support Kennedy's bill to federalize the Minimum Wage?

The Republicans are fighting tooth and nail to keep it from becoming law.

The long view is that the right does everything in its power to smash any gain made by working people.

Giving undocumented workers a voice in their jobs and respect for the labor that they provide is the ONLY way other workers in their fields will benefit.

[Critters2]

83. Yes, I do

[Critters2]

55. A rising tide lifts all boats

If the bottom wages go up, more money is available in the economy to be spent on goods and services. Those providing goods and services have more money to spend in their businesses, so wages go up. It's a win-win.

People need to grow up and stop thinking that you NEED cheap goods. What we need is a living wage for everyone. Then everyone benefits.

Edited for a stupid typo!

[DBoon]

70. a rising tide also drowns everyone without a boat

nt

[Critters2]

75. Everyone would have a boat,

unlike the current situation

[countryjake]

84. Is that why Republicans fight against raising the Minimum Wage?

[EFerrari]

62. About 3 million American citizens would be separated from

their parents, for one thing.

[maveric]

63. You'd see serious economic fallout in SoCal.

Just look at the hotel/restaurant industry, agriculture and construction. Higher wages w/benefits would have come about and rates would sore.

[Critters2]

66. So say the Repugs

but economic theory argues against this.

[Saphire]

67. my point exactly...and who would be paying those soaring prices??

[Critters2]

77. People whose own standard of living will have improved

Better wages at the bottom would push the whole scale up. Basic economics.

[High Plains]

64. Alright, then, let's legalize this immigrant labor.

Give 'em work permits, green cards, guest worker thingies--something to regularize their status so they can organize alongside native born workers for better wages and conditions. And if the work hard and keep their noses clean, give 'em an avenue for citizenship.

Do you think immigrants want to work for peanuts any more than you do?

And yes, I was a member of the Amalgamated Meat Cutters and Butcher Workers of America. It wasn't migrant labor that drove down wages in the meat-packing industry; it was union-busting. And scabs came in all colors.

And yes, I still eat meat.

[PsN2Wind]

78. Hey brother

I was in the AMCandBWofA, sliced bacon for Oscar Meyer. Good job, didn't leave because of them but a death in the family. Oscar Meyer had never had either a strike or a lock-out at that time. When bargaining time came around they would just say we'll agree to whatever the negotiators arrive at and kept on packaging pork.
I agree that immigrants don't want to work for peanuts but I believe they will always work for enough less to make it tough for the citizens that will be displaced. Just my gut feeling.

[Nikia]

72. Then why are prices not a lot higher where they don't use illegal labor?

There are a number of crews here in WI putting up houses in our neighborhood with all/mostly English speakers with Wisconsin accents that cost under $200,000. When I was back living in my part of Ohio 10-15 years ago, construction companies who only hired legal workers were constructing relatively low cost houses. Knowing some of these families, I knew that they were doing quite well even though they paid their workers a competitive wage. Why are housing prices so expensive in areas where contracters usually use immigrant labor?
I think that there should be some temprary visas granted for seasonal agricultural work, but only when the jobs are advertised publically in the local areas first and pay a wage equal to what would be paid for a similiar year round worker. All full time year round work should be paid a competitive enough wage to attract and retain enough legal non guest workers, which means that working on a kill floor has to be paid more than stacking or filling boxes in a clean factory.

[TheBaldyMan]

80. Because the profits are lower, you hit the nail on the head

Illegals work for slave wages so the boss ends up with more money.

[WilliamPitt]

82. You'd starve

Millions in the agriculture, trucking, rail, food brokering, fast food, restaurant, small store/convenience store business would be put out of work.

No oned to pick the food.

[Critters2]

85. Don't worry, it would get picked, and at a price equal to its value

[paul_fromatlanta]

106. We wouldn't starve, we'd buy food from overseas and allow more legal immig

We wouldn't starve, we'd buy food from overseas and allow more legal immigrants.

[B Calm]

86. lady of texas

http://www.conceptualguerilla.com/showthread.php?id=103

[lumberjack_jeff]

87. Like I should cry because the value of labor goes up.

Labor is the primary money-making asset most of us have. Legal workers suffer because illegal workers are at a competitive advantage.

No freakin' tears here.

[pinto]

89. I think the crops in the San Joaquin Valley would rot in the field.

Mechanization only goes so far in row crops.

[BushOut06]

92. Why don't we just bring back slavery, make it really cheap?

Please, that argument pisses me off whenever I hear it. People need places to live, work, and play - construction wouldn't stop if there were no illegal immigrants to pay sub-minimum wage under the table. They'd be forced to hire legal workers, and pay them more money.

I swear, everybody bitches and moans about Americans losing their jobs to overseas. Why the hell do you think this happens? BECAUSE IT'S CHEAPER, that's why! So why is it okay if businesses save money by hiring illegal immigrants, but not okay for them to outsource jobs to other countries?

[QC]

93. It's OK for people to be slaves if it gets me a nice house.

That's basically what you're arguing here.

It wasn't very long ago that most construction workers were unions workers getting good pay and bennies, and houses were much less expensive, even adjusted for inflation, than now. But, since there are now millions of people who will do roofing and framing and the like for six bucks an hour, there's no need to pay people decently, and the builders are getting a much higher profit.

Construction was a very, very bad example for you to use.

[kestrel91316]

95. Well, for one thing I betcha I could get a rental for about HALF

what I'm paying now, lol.

One million people in our lovely San Fernando Valley, and I think half must be illegals these days.

[Zorra]

98. Mexico would be devastated. A whole lot of cash

leaves the US by way of undocumented Mexican workers sending it home to their families in Mexico.

And Mexico's economy would be plunged into unprecedented chaos with the influx of millions of unemployed people.

[YouthInAsia]

101. Industrry would be forced to pay the american worker decent

wages thats what would happen.

[harpo]

102. damn straight!

[YouthInAsia]

103. Wow. I thought I was gonna get flamed. lol

[harpo]

104. oh you will....just not by me..lol

[paul_fromatlanta]

105. The main thing that would happen is a need for many more legal immigrants

[fujiyama]

108. My guess is

if all illegal immigrants were to leave, you would have an increase in the cost of several industries: tourism (hotels would cost more), agriculture, meat, and produce (obvious), housing construction and rental (janitorial work for one), and several others.

On the upside, some legal residents and citizens might have access to jobs. They'd likely be paid very shitty though...Especially in "right to work" states.

Illegal immigration is a problem in falling wages, but it's only one part of the problem. Corporations are cheap and will do whatever they can to save a buck...

[Cleita]

109. According to the INS there are eleven million of them here.

If everyone had to leave, that's going to be one big traffic jam. Even conservatives know this is an impossibility. I have a dreadful feeling that they are going to round these people up, put them into detention centers and then offer them permanent residency if they do a stint in the U. S. Army first. I wonder if Bush's guest worker program has any strings like military service attached to it?

[oscar111]

112. 'GUEST JOB-STEALERS"

A good term

PS send ten million or so back over two years, and it is one every four seconds.

very possible.

Hope my mental math is right LOL

here come the experts, i can almost hear the math cogwheels LOL

[oscar111]

111. about ten dollar tomatoes..Pioneers grew all food, cheap. Do-able today

Before any illegals arrived, our forefathers grew their food, cheaply.

send illegals back to mexico, and we can grow our food again, cheaply. The cost to you today hides many fat profit markups by the agribiz bosses.

The real cost to grow a tomato today is far cheaper than to our pioneer grandpas.. because of vast mechanization now. The cost savings of using machines make the real cost of food incredibally cheap, cheaper than in eighteen hundred A.D.

Construction , ditto... we built houses before the illegal flood, and they were not sky hi in price.

[oscar111]

113. RECOMND FOR GREATEST PAGE nt

zzzz

[Vinca]

114. If construction companies were forced to pay a living wage -

which might happen if people refused to work for $6.00 an hour - it would be beneficial to everyone, legal and illegal. If home buyers refused to pay the increased cost the construction companies tried to charge them, home prices wouldn't rise. The bottom line is someone's making huge profits off the backs of hardworking illegals. It's like modern day slavery. I don't want that to continue. I'm not saying send all the illegals back from whence they came, I'm saying find out who they are, weed out any bad apples, and force employers to pay a decent wage for an honest day's work to both immigrant workers and American citizens. In the end, the people lobbying against immigration reform are the profiteers. It's got nothing to do with racism and everything to do with money.

[yankeeinlouisiana]

120. Things would go up slightly, but

I really don't think they would go up so much that most people couldn't afford to buy things anymore.

Since Katrina, McDonald's is hiring at $10 an hour with a $400/week bonus. (I've thought of applying.) That's equivalent to $20 an hour to fill orders. McDonald's has raised their prices, but it's only about a $1-$1.50 per meal. And if you can make that much money at McDonald's, then people will expect to be paid more at other jobs. (I have now idea what will happen after New Orleans "normalizes".)

Companies will still make a profit. Maybe not as large, but they still can make a profit.

[QC]

122. Yuppies would have to take care of their own children! Perish the thought!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sherman-yellen/esperanza-the-undocumen_b_18208.html