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Good God, folks. Is it possible to have a non hysterical thread on

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Thtwudbeme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 09:25 AM
Original message
Good God, folks. Is it possible to have a non hysterical thread on
immigration issues?

Seriously, I read DU for my own personal edification, and I am no more closer to having a good understanding of this issue now than I was a week ago.

I really didn't expect this to turn into the mother of all emotional issues that make Confederate flag/SouthernBashing/Christian VS everyone else/abortion threads look like good, clean family fun!

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Strong Atheist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 09:26 AM
Response to Original message
1. The answer is:
no.
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Thtwudbeme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. apparently
I really didn't expect this.

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ChairmanAgnostic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 09:27 AM
Response to Original message
2. yes
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 09:28 AM
Response to Original message
4. The issue has been thrust to the forefront intentionally.
For precisely political reasons which I predict will emerge in '06.
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Thtwudbeme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. funny you should mention that
I wondered about that as I was posting this...it sure seems to get people worked up into a froth about how they FEEEEEEL....

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zanne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #4
18. I suspect that you're right.
Why is the immigration debate being brought up now? Just in case we don't invade another country by the November elections.
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NoodleBoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 09:29 AM
Response to Original message
5. WHY DO YOU HATE AMERICA????
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Thtwudbeme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. "hate" and "lack of respect at this point" are not the same thing
;)
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 09:30 AM
Response to Original message
7. No. The GOP has come up with the perfect wedge issue to neuter us
We be so busy squaring off with each other we are too busy to keep after them on all the issues where they are destroying the nation
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ChairmanAgnostic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #7
19. I think this separates them even more than us. GOP is collapsing under
the weight of its crazy ideas and their eventual collapse.

While some of us (me and others I can name) consider the humanitarian disaster waiting to happen, and the logistical nightmare in trying to remove 12,000,000 people from our country, others can consider the impact on service industries, farms, factories and companies who live and die on such labor.

Like it or not, 12,000,000 workers have made themselves indispensible to our way of life. Our food, our day care, our elder care - these aspects impact every single american, and there is nothing you can do about it. Remove 12 million aliens, and you have a three-fold problem

a) the unbelievable task of removal will be horrendous. 12 MILLION households affected. Some married to legals, many with kids.

b) the loss of employment will devastate many sectors of US industries, including health, home care, restaurants, food production and more.

c) we will be left with millions of legal american citizens, all infants to 17 yrs of age, who are entitled to stay here under our law. \

Unless you have done any large scale planning, and I am not talking about a wedding party for 150, I am talking about MILLIONS OF PEOPLE, many of whom used to provide the services that we will be required to provide while we try to remove them, it is impossible to overestimate the impact of such a large shift in humanity. Several euro governments ran, got elected and tried to do the same with their illegal (or semi-legal) populations. Once the logistics started rearing their ugly heads, every neoconservative government stopped. They could not afford the mess that their election platforms would have created. A partial list of countries which faced- even to some degree, then turned away from the idea of mass removal? Netherlands, France, England, Italy, Poland, Belgium, Austria, Germany, Latvia. There are others.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. You made my point for me
We are not discussing any of the many things the GOP government has done to make life easier for the mega-Corporations. We are not discussing any of the many laws bush has ADMITTED violating. We are not discussing the IMMEDIATE need to ditch fossil fuels for cleaner energy. We are not discussing the war. We are not discussing election fraud.

We are chasing our tails on an emotionally charged issue that really will not change until we address some of the above issues, like, oh, say, election fraud and get legitimate representation in power.

If those IN power wanted to address the issue in real life, there are laws on the books with which to do it. But it is sorta like abortion and gay marriage, it garners such strong gut reactions in most of us that we lose ourselves in the morass of THEIR CHOOSING.

They can't risk having anybody talk about the GOP record or the hundreds of ways their policies and votes have fucked up the nation and world. This is the dog and pony show of 06 to keep us distracted while they contintue stealing our $$ and our rights.
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ChairmanAgnostic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #20
23. I hadn't thought of it that way. GREAT POINTS, ALL!
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Neil Lisst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 09:30 AM
Response to Original message
8. WHY ARE YOU SO RACIST?!!
Edited on Wed Mar-29-06 09:34 AM by Neil Lisst
;)

I feel for ya!

There are some among us who like to characterize their political opposition - be it democrats or freepers - as morally deficient.

THAT is the problem and the reason discussions get derailed by verbal molotov cocktails thrown by latter day Bolsheviks.
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shenmue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 09:31 AM
Response to Original message
10. I don't think so...
Sorry.
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BOHICA06 Donating Member (886 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 09:32 AM
Response to Original message
11. No matter what your position ...
the 11 to 30 million illegals are the problem, or more specifically the sheer numbers are the problem. It has grown so large that the Senate Judiciary Bill might be the only solution possible. And then in 20 years we'll do it all again because we won't enforce our borders nor really deport those that fail to comply with whatever compromise is reached.

Hopeless ...... but hopeful.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 09:33 AM
Response to Original message
12. No. ALL the "isms" are out in force!!!
Patriotism
Nationalism
Isolationism
Classism
Racism
US vs THEMism

Fasten your seatbelt!!!

:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Yup... discouraging...
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #13
24. OOPS! I almost forgot...
MONOLINGUALISM!!!
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. hehehehehe
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donkeyotay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. Mongoliaism! They cummin here, too????
Short answer: No. It is not possible to have a civil discussion and will not be possible until after the 2006 election, at which time we'll have a new agenda - possibly a man-date or some political capital itching to be spent - which, even though we don't know what it is, I guarantee you it not be cheap.
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 09:34 AM
Response to Original message
14. No.
I think people comparing the US occupying Iraq with Mexicans occupying the US is "just good clean fun".:sarcasm:
Now, if the only thing we were doing in Iraq was picking lettuce, I would agree. However, the slaughter of thousands of Iraqi's doesn't equate with undocumented workers coming into our country to try to feed their families.
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Jersey Devil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 09:35 AM
Response to Original message
15. Sure, if it's not flame bait, like this string
I like your fishing technique, particular the baitcasting. :puke:
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TAPat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 09:37 AM
Response to Original message
16. Some things are black and white
like the administration lying us into war, soaring debt, etc.
I think that humans tend to go emotional when confronted with an issue that is so complex.
I've been back and forth on this pretty much all my life - I grew up in California - and have realized that this issue is one giant onion. We have to start peeling away at it but there seems to be no good place to start...
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johnnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 09:37 AM
Response to Original message
17. Not really
If you take a lot of time and weed out the posts that do nothing but accuse, you might be able to get some useful information. This is one of those issues here at DU that I look elsewhere for information. Usually DU is the best place to gather information and have decent discussions on a lot of topics, but this issue has brought out too many people who just want to accuse others of being (fill in an "ist" here) and it doesn't help the conversation.

There are a lot of us who don't have the same experience as others here on a lot of topics, and since these types of things aren't innate, some of us would like to get more information and other people's experience rather than be called names.
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Chovexani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 10:03 AM
Response to Original message
21. No.
Sorry, if you want a non-wanky discussion of this, you're on the wrong site. ;)
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KyndCulture Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 10:08 AM
Response to Original message
22. appearantly no.
too many closet pigs being exposed lately.
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DrGonzoLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
25. No
The only "discourse" is to scream RACIST RACIST RACIST RACIST at the top of your lungs, apparently.
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Zomby Woof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
27. Yes it is
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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
29. A non-hysterical post
Controlling our borders with the stroke of a pen

Building a wall takes time. We don't need to wait. We can effectively control immigration with the stroke of a pen by passing legislation that includes two basic elements:
  • Going after predatory employers.

  • Offering a path to citizenship for whistleblowers and their families.

Specifically:
  • Expand the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) to cover every business and individual employer, whether they employ documented or undocumented workers.
    Conditions and terms of employment must meet FLSA and safety requirements for any wage earner who meets the criteria that would require reporting under IRS rules (e.g, the IRS threshold this year is $1500 for most of work).

  • Criminalize predatory employment practices.
    Predatory employers who are violating FLSA, violating OSHA standards, and evading taxes must be subject to prosecution and mandatory prison time.

  • Whistleblower immigration amnesty.
    Clear processes for workers to report predatory employers and maintain anonymity throughout the course of investigation. Whistleblowers who are undocumented (whether an individual or a group) are offered a path to citizenship.

  • Increase resources and create special units as required
    Affected agencies would include the Dept of Labor Wage and Hour Division, Dept of Justice, OSHA, IRS, and INS. The Wage and Hour Division is probably the logical agency to oversee the handling of charges against predatory employers, including preliminary investigation, referral to Justice for investigation and prosecution, referral to IRS, and coordination with INS to process undocumented whistleblowers and other undocumented workers.

Controlling our borders isn't really about control; it's about values

"Controlling our borders" means more than erecting barriers or patrolling. Controlling our borders is about making a commitment to act in a manner that is consistent with our values.

When we set employment standards we are expressing our values. Those standards reflect our belief that all human beings have a right to be treated fairly.

As long as we allow ANY workers to be exploited within our borders, we disgrace ourselves. As long as we turn a blind eye to the violations committed by people who enter illegally or remain after their visa expires, we demonstrate hypocrisy.

Guest worker programs have a place, but too often; such programs have been used to give employers a ticket to pay substandard wages and subject workers to unsafe conditions. We cannot tolerate programs that set different standards for "guests."

To be consistent with American values, we need to "just say no" to the exploitation workers -- documented or not. Continuing to permit predatory employers to operate within our borders will only drive more and more of Us and "Them" into poverty.

Making implicit costs explicit

The harmful effects of supporting an underground economy are costly to the nation. When we "just say no" to the exploitation workers, some implicit costs will be made explicit. Americans have a choice. We can invest our tax dollars to our common benefit, or bear the costs -- both moral and monetary -- of exploiting other human beings.

If we choose make predatory employers the prime target, we can ensure the survival of vital "underground economy" sectors by providing transitional supports. We can offset increased costs of goods or services to the working class through tax credits. (Should be part of shifting the costs of citizenship from those who benefit the least from our common infrastructure to those who benefit the most.)

Radically changing the rules of the game

If predatory employers faced serious penalties, and the undocumented workers they are exploiting benefited from blowing the whistle, we would significantly increase the risk of exploiting workers.

The threat of exposure and prosecution alone will be sufficient for many to revamp their operations. In some sectors, the predators may simply move operations offshore. In others, predators may be forced out of business. As noted above, it may serve the public interest to provide transition assistance or start up assistance for replacement businesses.

Undoubtedly, a significant percent of undocumented workers would continue to evade detection, but employers would be far less likely to exploit them. If the workers are making a fair wage, the "race to the bottom" has a lower limit and the negative effect on wages is reduced.

We have a right enforce immigration law and deport violators

There are situations in which our interests are best served by providing an alternative to deportation. Nevertheless, if it does not serve a public interest to provide an alternative we should not hesitate to deport those who violate immigration laws.

We have a right to enforce our immigration laws. When we shift our focus to predatory employers, we are not forfeiting that right.

Offering legal status to whistleblowers serves us in two vital ways -- it deters predatory employers and it gives authorities vital resources "on the ground" who are motivated to expose those who are not deterred.

Targeting predatory employers creates a new class of unemployable undocumented workers If we do not institute a program that offers an opportunity to achieve legal (employable) status to those who are displaced, the deportation and support costs are likely to rise to intolerable levels.

If we decide that minimizing competition for jobs is worth the costs associated with deportation, the number of families who are offered legal status could be limited by entering those who qualify a "lottery" of sorts. It may seem harsh to allow chance to determine who stays and who goes, but deportation must remain the default consequence of breaking our immigration laws.

Conclusion

Our underground economy makes the United States very attractive to people who are struggling to survive in their own countries. We can change the dynamics right now and virtually eliminate the underground economy, and in the process, minimize the incentive to enter this country unlawfully.

Saying no to the exploitation of workers is central to controlling our borders. Radically changing the rules of the game makes other aspects of controlling immigration more manageable, but it does not eliminate the need for them. We still need to do a better job of tracking the foreign nationals who come here to work, study, or visit. We still need to make our border with Mexico as impenetrable as possible, while weighing the costs against the benefits.

We cannot continue to hypocritically turn a blind eye to violations of our immigration laws or tolerate the exploitation of workers within our borders. As is often the case, committing to enacting and enforcing laws that that reflect our values is not just the right thing to do, it ultimately serves the common good.

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