Mexican flags are so scary!

[bunkerbuster1]

Peaceful marchers with brown skin are even scarier!

(ok, Unca Karl, I posted it. Where's my envelope?)

[xchrom]

1. you musn't interrupt americans getting a boner

for the american flag.

looking at another country's flag makes their wee-wees droop.

[bunkerbuster1]

2. I'm just astonished at how many are happy to parrot RW drivel.

Really, why does anyone give a rip if demonstrators bring flags to the party?

What do RWers do on Saint Patty's day, for chrissakes?

[xchrom]

6. several of us are astonished -- sort of.

as gay man -- i can tell you there is a LOT of surprising, hidden features laying around du.

[LostinVA]

9. sexism, homophobia, blood lust...

[xchrom]

12. lol --damn -- that sounds like a party for some!

[LostinVA]

13. I know!

[LostinVA]

8. Yup, DU has been a scary place the last few days -- and I'm serious

I used the St. Patrick's Day analogy, too...

[neebob]

19. Word.

I never thought I'd say this, but I'm embarrassed for DU and what will first-time visitors think and so on.

[LostinVA]

20. It's as bad as after the 2004 election, and people were throwing gay right

under the bus, all in the name of "what's best for the Party," of course. No homophobia involved. No siree!

[lectrobyte]

3. Yes, it's hard to avoid feeling like DU is getting psy-op'd or

astro-turfed or something.

[dogday]

5. Invasion is what it feels like

All of them calling off with their heads!!!!!

[Marie26]

15. No, it's how people really are

I think, on an anonymous message board, people feel free to express their real (often sexist, xenophobic or racist) opinions.

[LostinVA]

21. I know -- discouraging and often disgusting...

[Marie26]

24. It's depressing

I've actually lost some faith in Americans, in humanity. If Democrats, liberals, can't get past this sort of thing, I'm not sure there's much hope for us.

[dogday]

4. Since when did we become so protest politically correct??? nt

[LostinVA]

10. I know -- like, they shouldn't do things we or others do, because

they have a Hispanic heritage? WTF?

[dogday]

16. There are several people that are trying

to blow this ember into a huge flame... We should not let them get away with it.....

[EFerrari]

18. Yep. It's like they're on a mission. n/t

[bunkerbuster1]

23. heh.

A saint francis mission?

[EFerrari]

25. My teach got upset when I made my sugar cube mission

and included the historically correct whipping post.

In CA, kids used to make them in 3rd or 4th grade.

[Solly Mack]

7. amazing isn't it?

[400Years]

11. those fuckin mesicans are ruinin' everything

hell, when they cut my grass yesterday they didn't even bring the newspaper up to porch!!!

[xchrom]

14. lol -- soo lazy.

i'm miffed when my gardners don't take my trash to the dumpsters.

they're not supposed to but that's besides the point!

[LostinVA]

22. And, the ladies on our custodial staff actually took a break yesterday

And were standing around speaking in MEXICAN. Bet they all have fake SSNs...

[Ishoutandscream2]

31. Being here in Texas, you would be amazed

at how many people will call the language "Mexican" instead of "Spanish." Of course, they counter that the kind of Spanish spoken is a "Mexican" kind of dialect. I then state that I don't believe a British citizen would describe Americans as speaking "American" and not "English." Absolutely embarrassing.

[LostinVA]

35. I said that on purpose, because my SO's redneck relatives in NC

call EVERYTHING/EVERYONE Hispanic "Mexican"... even a dude I know named Bob Gonzales who was born here, and whose family has been in the US for hundreds of years. Crazy..... MY redneck relatives in NJ call everything/everyone Hispanic "Puerto Rican," because there's a large Puerto Rican community up there. They don't seem to care how stupid they sound....

[Ishoutandscream2]

43. Oh, yes, I knew where you were coming from

I was just remarking that you were correct about the fact that 1. All hispanics are "Mexicans" and 2. They all speak "Mexican." It is embarrassing that even educated people I know speak like this. It seems so prevalent down here.

[LostinVA]

45. I speak Amurikin

[Karenina]

50. And YOU would be completely, totally INCORRECT.

American English and British English are VERY different and yes, Brits refer to Ami English and vice versa. Then there's Indian English (ever read one of their newspapers? It's a HOOT!) and Jamaican English (you have to tune up your ear before tackling the construction and slang).

The Spanish Mexicans speak IS DIFFERENT from that spoken in Spain which is different from that spoken by Castilians (also in Spain) which is different from that spoken by Peruvians. The German spoken by old folks in Bayern is INCOMPREHENSIBLE to those in Hessen or Cologne. Forget the Swiss. I'll take a native speaker from Hamburg or Hannover, thanks.

[EFerrari]

57. The Spanish Mexicans speak is different from the Spanish

Mexicans speak.

Mexico is a vast country with regional accents and idioms.

The language is still Spanish, not "Mexican".

[Marie26]

64. Mexican is not a language

It's not even a dialect. There is a Latin American dialect, but it's still part of the same Spanish language. Take it from a Spanish major, here. People who use "Mexican" to describe a language are just ignorant.

[EFerrari]

66. Estamos en acuerdo.

:)

[Marie26]

67. Muy bien!

:)

[Karenina]

70. Aren't there Native Indian languages

also in use? Would you know how widespread they are?

[Marie26]

74. Indigenous languages

Hi Karenina! Yes, Mexico also has a number of indigenous languages in different regions of the country. There are over 60+ Native American languages in use, but the most popular are probably Mayan & Nahuatl. Especially in southern Mexico, many people will speak both Spanish & their native language. Even though these languages exist, they are not well-acknowledged in larger Mexican society. Almost all media, government, & business communication is done in Spanish. There are some isolated pockets of Mexico, however, where the indigenous language is the only one used. I remember some small towns where everything was in Nahuatl - the store signs, the gas stations, the churches, everything. So Native American languages are still fairly widespread throughout Mexico.

[LostinVA]

59. That's not what they meant

They meant that a certain type of person uses "Mexican" to belittle Spanish speakers, whereas they would never say "British" speakers, etc.

[Ishoutandscream2]

61. Exactly what I meant.

We all speak English, even thought our dialects, etc. are different. I was speaking of the fact that down here some don't even recognize the language as Spanish, but rather "Mexican."

[Karenina]

69. AHHHH!!! Your regional code

was COMPLETELY lost on me! Here, Ishoutandscream2, knock some sense into my head with a frying pan! :spank: NOW I GET IT!!! So if they heard someone from Chile or Argentina (or even Brazil ;-) ) that person would simply be assumed to speak and be "Mexican."
Then there's the issue that not all Mexicans speak Spanish...

I've been living abroad for a l-o-n-g time. The dialects here ARE referred to by region without prejudice, i.e. Kölsch, Bayerisch, Hessisch. Clear distinctions are constantly made, again without prejudice, between American and British English because the Germans get major exposure to both and often need to sort things out. It ain't easy! :evilgrin:

[Ishoutandscream2]

73. Yes, I guess I could have written a better statement

Unfortunately, my writing skills have a bit to be desired. Don't worry about it! :-)

[LostinVA]

87. We're agreeing on the same thing...

[dogday]

71. I have lived in Texas most of my life

and it does not matter a nat's ass what language they speak or what they call it.. It has not affected my way of life at all... How has it affected yours???

[Ishoutandscream2]

72. Wow, I guess I must have really touched some nerves, here

Born here, raised here, almost 45 years here in Texas.

Quite frankly, I'm embarrassed that any hispanic speaks "Mexican" according to quite a few people I know in a very, very Bush area in North Texas. It has affected me to the point that I'm embarrassed by their ignorance, and their obvious intolerance to those who are different than they are. I work with many ESL students in my school, and the comments I hear from some of my co-workers sometimes bother me.

Is that better?

[dogday]

75. I don't have any nerves only opinions and

the people speak the language which we have called Tex-Mex, which is not Spanish, but again they are not true Spanish, they are a mix of Spanish and Indian and have their own language...

I am not embarrassed by a race who speaks their own version of their language, why should you be?

Sounds like you have a no-tolerance factor at your school... Everyone talking and embarrassed and ashamed of their language... I just don't understand.....

[xchrom]

32. gasp! and who designs those uniforms?!?!

[EFerrari]

17. The ironic thing is Mexican culture is about the sweetest to strangers

on earth.

It's considered unkind and rude to say "I don't know" because that is a refusal.

[RaleighNCDUer]

26. Interesting. I didn't know that. In other words, to be sure of getting

good information you need to phrase a question so that it elicits a positive response, like "Do you know someone who can help me find (the train station, my hotel, a restaurant, etc); that would allow them to say "Sure, I can tell you where that is" or "Sure, if you go down there there's a guy who knows where that is" -- either allowing them to make a positive response.

I'll have to remember that.

[EFerrari]

I walked around Ensenada all afternoon once because I didn't

know this. I was asking for directions and everyone was too polite to say "I don't know, lady."

lol

[Horse with no Name]

47. I met the cutest little boy at a racetrack

in Nuevo Laredo.
He was probably about 10.
He hedged his bets. He came over to me and told me to bet on #10--I wouldn't be sorry (wink wink).
I wondered if he knew something I didn't know.
I then watched him go to every patron and give them a different number.
Then, when the race was over, he went and asked for a tip from the person who bet on the winner for his advice.
Got to admit--the kid had schtick!

[EFerrari]

52. That's hilarious. An entrepreneur!

lol

[Beausoir]

27. That is so true!

I've been to Mexico many times. By and large the people are the most beautiful inside and out that I've come across.

Lovely, kind and generous people.

I am ASHAMED at the brown-bashing that is going on. It's sickening.

[Clark2008]

96. I am visiting Mexico for the first time in my life next week

It's my honeymoon.

I hope that my idiot Congress's stupidity and the stupidity of too many Americans hasn't soured the good people of Puerto Vallarta toward American tourists too much.

I wouldn't blame them if it did, but I don't want my husband and I to be lumped in with the numbskulls who are so xenophobic.

Any tips for visiting you guys can provide (yes, I know about the water and ice cubes) would be very much appreciated!

:hi:

[Marie26]

28. It really is

When I traveled in Mexico, I was so continually impressed w/how gracious, kind & friendly people were towards gringos. Which is maybe why it makes me cringe a little to see how intolerant, hateful & unkind we are towards them.

[cali]

29. I think this thread should be shut down.

There's a germ of a thoughtful post in there somewhere. Too bad you didn't take the time to develop it, and simply tossed a bomb into the whole nasty DU debate by accusing other posters of being racists and in the pay of the repub party. Reprehensible. Try reading Skinner's post again, or my post yesterday for discussions on the topic that aren't just stupid flamebait.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=772040&mesg_id=772040

[EFerrari]

30. Thank you for weighing in, cali. n/t

[Marie26]

36. It probably is flame-bait.

Though right now, most of GD consists of flamebait.

[LostinVA]

40. Some of the posters are being racists -- that;'s a legitimate beef

There's a huge difference between debating and discussing this for whatever sundry reasons, and posting racist and xenophobic posts. That's what I'm decrying. Just like the sexist and homophobic posts that show on on occasion.

There's also nothing wrong with us venting our frustration to each other -- and better here, than on another thread where it may quickly degrade into flame baiting and anger.

[Marie26]

48. We almost need a little pro-immigration forum, huh?

It does feel nice to vent & know others feel the same way.

[LostinVA]

56. I think we do -- or at least a thread!

Like, the invasion we have suddenly had in here... by a new 98-count poster, no less. Taking ME to task. Whatever!

I love Ignore...

[Inland]

77. Threads doing nothing but conflating racism with the debate are wrong.

For the reasons you state, and there are a couple of them.

[EFerrari]

89. There is a good deal of racism involved in this "debate"

especially here in California.

My mom is a naturalized citizen who happened to be an ace salewoman. When she'd win the office achievement award, she'd find her desk messed up the next morning. Didn't seem to happen to anyone else. I still remember my uncle hosing off racist graffitti left on the outer wall of our house.

No one there was undocumented. Everyone worked. And we owned that house.

[Inland]

95. And yet, conflating a position with racism is wrong.

There's more than one debate with racists picking a side for whatever reason. Every thread with an OP that begins and ends with racism is intended as an accusation against...well, it's hard to tell, because beginning and ending with racism isn't the best articulation of issues, but I think anyone who wants immigration controls, including a number of people, like me and my own, that have ties to immigrants.

[EFerrari]

100. Unless the position itself is racist. I don't think we know how

to talk about racism very well in this country. That seems to be part of the problem.

[Inland]

101. I dont' see anything "don't know" about, say, the first 24 posts.

Seems to me that it's impossible to discuss immigration without somebody pretending that they know me better than my own fucking mother, and guess what? I'm disgusting, john birch, so 1880s, scared of brown people, and racist. Who knew?

Not because I disagree on the issues, because I can't tell for a second what the OP or the first 24 posts think should be the correct stance on immigration. Apparently everyone knows everything so well from some sort of memo exactly what all the non-disgusting people are for, immigration wise.

Seems to me that more than a few people are looking for a little self congratulation at the expense of rationality and a lot of democrats and aren't looking to know anyone or anything at all.

[EFerrari]

103. Well, people post for all kinds of reasons. It would be a good

thing if this could all be calmed down.

[Neil Lisst]

33. Amen. I considered it nothing more than pride of heritage.

If you look at a half million people marching, and your reaction is focused on the handful of Mexican flags being carried, well, IMHO, you're not getting it.

It's a bunch of people who live here - legally or not - making a statement that they're here. They were peaceful. They did no harm. They did what we as Americans have made traditional - the large, peaceful protest to make our statements.

Count me in the camp that is jealous. I wish we could motivate 500,000 students to march peacefully for any of our causes.

[EFerrari]

42. That was pretty impressive, wasn't it?

In Los Angeles, a lot of progressive groups joined the march.

[Neil Lisst]

63. Yes, it was.

Here in Houston, about 6 predominantly hispanic schools had students who walked to city hall. It was great.

I called a teacher from one of those schools to get her eyewitness report on how things were going.

[seabeyond]

34. your title alone dismisses any validity to this issue, and is childish

and non thinking. there is a lot more to the subject, than mexican flag is scary. further, the issue is nothing about a flag being scary, the issue is what is being said, with said flag, which you ignore and pretend isn't there. totally empty, hollow, non thinking thread

[EFerrari]

38. Thank you for weighing in too, seabeyond. n/t

/o

[bunkerbuster1]

68. Actually a great deal of thought went into this thread.

I'd followed a few online discussion threads, here and elsewhere, and realized that the common bond between most everyone I couldn't stand on this issue was their insistence that there was something evil about "flaunting" (one guy's term, not mine) the Mexican flag during the California protests.

Sorry it wasn't evident.

[LostinVA]

88. I agree with you on all counts

[Neil Lisst]

92. Is not! Is not! Is not! Childish, that is. The thread title is hilarious

And your reaction to same is even funnier!

I laugh every time I read the thread title, because IT'S SO TRUE!!

[CanonRay]

37. No, it's just disrespecful.

Something you probably don't understand. As for the brown skin, I have it too! So don't play the racist card. It's a cheap way out of a losing argument.

[EFerrari]

39. I think we've got ourselves a convoy. n/t

[LostinVA]

44. No, it is not disrespect

Other protests, parades, etc. use flags other than the US flag -- including Anarchist flags, etc. Nothing wrong with that. And, why is OUR argument the losing one? Just because YOU say so? And, of course some posters are being racist! Saying they aren't doesn't make it true....

[CanonRay]

49. Flying the Mexican flag over the US flag IS disrespectful

And your argument is a losing one, because no matter how you slice and dice it, every illegal alien is here ILLEGALLY. What part of illegally don't you understand. By the way, I include illegal Canadians, British, Chinese, Nigerians, Swedes, and any other flavor.

[EFerrari]

51. If Michelle has anything new for us, I hope you let us know.

:)

[LostinVA]

55. Who's Michelle?

[EFerrari]

58. The nice lady who put the pictures of teenagers

raising flags together for us.

[LostinVA]

60. Ah! Hehehehehhe... nice lady....

[LostinVA]

54. Nice snotty reply -- I have a question for YOU

Why can't you just discuss this instead if just going bonkers? Seriously -- you can't seem to do that. Or to respect OUR views. Why should I respect yours, then? Why is MY argument the l;osing one? You never answered. You can't just say illegal over and over again.

I know what illegally means, just as I know that most of those protesters are American citizens. And, just like I know that for so many years no one has really cared about the "Ilelgals"... until it's an election year with low numbers. Then, suddenly, it's then issue du jour.

Re: the flag: I guarantee the kids who did that with the flag yesterday are US citizens. They can disrespect their flag if they want... although I don't consider it disrespectful, any more than a US citizen handing the Welsh flag on St. David's Day. Even if they weren't -- who cares? It's a FLAG. They were showing pride in tehir heritage. Big whoop. Let's all get pissed about something stupid.It's just a convenient blind for people who are racist and xenophobic to hide behind why they post their invective-filled posts.

Oh, guess what? Spew to your heart's content. You're on Ignore. I don't listen to thinly-veiled attacks by new posters with less than 100 posts. The people on here know who I am. Who are you? Bye.

[RaleighNCDUer]

62. Flying the Mexican flag above an inverted US flag is disrespectful.

Well, DUH!!!

That's the whole idea! It's a fucking protest! It's intended to be disrespectful!

But even at that, they weren't burning the US flag. And even if they did, that's what free speech is all about. The right to protest, non-violently, in any way they choose.

What's the fine for violating the US flag code? $25? That's not exactly burning down the courthouse.

Chill.

[Beausoir]

78. What part of HUMAN BEING don't YOU understand? Stop calling people aliens

Enough of the disgusting racist smears. I won't allow you to get away with this any longer.

These are HUMAN BEINGS!!!!

[Inland]

79. Other protests don't claim a desire to become Americans.

I mean, that sort of makes it different than a St. Patrick's day parade. One has to wonder if the idea is to be allowed to become an American or be a Mexican living in America.

[LostinVA]

91. You think all the people on March 17 are citizens?

ha!

You like to twist words around I've noticed. The point is to become an American cxitizen of Mexiucan heritage. Period. The analogy with March 17 stands -- pride of heritage.

But you already know that.

[Inland]

99. It's not a march over immigration, is it?

See, because you are calling everyone racist and confusing a position on immigration with racism, you also declare a corrolary, that racial pride is a position on immigration.

You're wrong on both counts.

Being proud of being a Mexican is irrelevant to wanting to be an American, and that's why a Mexican flag at an immigration rally is at best confusing and at most an ad for a guest worker program where foreign nationals work a job and then go back to what they consider to be their home.

And that's why you won't find a lot of talk about immigration on March 17. You know what you find? American elected officials leading a parade. Equating the two is, frankly, borne out of a desire to make it all about racism despite the truth.

[m_welby]

41. Mexican flag is scary? ha! us lieberals in new england have to put up with

Italian flags,
Irish flags,
Portuguese flags,
Polish flags,


... for generations now they have been there. Regularly flying outside their illegal immigrant headquarters (aka italian-american clubs, portuguese-american clubs, irish-american clubs, etc).

They're all dangerous you know. Taking jobs away from us and doing crazy things like saving their money, buying homes, investing in the community. radicals I tell ya, radicals!! Pretty soon they'll be better americans than us americans!!

[LostinVA]

46. And, do you know what I saw some doing the other weekend???

Helping an old lady carry her groceries to her car! They probably mugged her when I walked away....

Most Hispanics I know are viable members of the community, are family people, church goers, involved with their kids, taxpayers, etc. I honestly have no idea if they're illegal of not. I don't see a scourge on the country, I honestly see hard-working people who are contributing the the growth and enrichment of my community. That's it. That's what I see.

[AllieB]

65. You forgot the Brazilians and the Haitians!

They're taking over New England! Lock your doors!

[sadiesworld]

53. Wow.

A thread which perfectly illustrates the level of discourse and civility displayed by many of the support legal immigration crowd. Really, a true testament.

[Inland]

76. They ain't scary. But then again, they ain't mine or yours, either.

If the concept of immigration is that people who want to be Americans should be allowed, then I would think that there would be a little more indication of wanting to be Americans, rather than indication of currently being Mexicans.

Since the march is intended to provide a message, I gotta wonder what it is.

[bunkerbuster1]

80. I believe the message is, "proposed legislation sucks ass."

And I agree with them that it does.

[Inland]

81. And the Mexican flag stands for good legislation?

Hm....who knew? I thought it stood for Mexico, a place that has its own laws, own legislation, and its own immigration laws, and, for better or worse, isn't my nation.

I guess if nobody can really tell why the flags are being flown, it's a little unfair to imply there's racism involved in not being thrilled to see a march under the aegis of a country other than America.

[bunkerbuster1]

82. Here's what the Mexican flags stand for:

according to some of the protesters, from

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-flag29mar29,0,7504382.story?coll=la-home-headlines

During Saturday's march, American flags appeared to outnumber Mexican flags, in large part because the Spanish-language DJs who promoted the demonstration during their radio shows urged participants to carry American flags to show their patriotism.

"If we want to live here, we want to demonstrate that we love this country and we love the American flag," DJ Eddie "El Piolin" Sotelo said.

But during the student walkouts this week, hundreds wore the red, white and green Mexican flags. Some were immigrants, but more were U.S. citizens.

Angelica Salas, executive director of the Coalition for Humane Immigrant Rights, said many young people feel a need to defend their Mexican heritage.

"Their identity has not always been respected," Salas said. "It's a wonderful time for them to say, 'I'm proud to be Mexican.' "

I've no problem whatsoever with that.

[Inland]

84. Yeah, I guess if you ask....and get two answers.....

Looks confused to me again. One wants to demonstrate he loves this country, another wants to demonstrate being proud to be Mexican. Well, it's a march about immigration, and as I said, if it's a march about immigration into the US, and one has to wonder what it has to do with being proud to be Mexican.

As I keep saying, I have no problem with Mexican flags or people being proud of being Mexican. But it aint my flag or my nation, and bringing it up in the context of an protest against draconinan immigration laws is confusing.

The only way I can figure it is that it's the same equation of a position on immigration with racism (like your OP), so that racial pride is somehow also a position on immigration. But two irrelevancies don't make a right.

[LostinVA]

85. That's what I've been saying in post after post

Just like we wear green on March 17, hang the Welsh flag on St. David's Day, etc.

You can love America and also love the country of either your birth or heritage.

Question:

If someone asked you which parent you love, your mother or your father, can't you say you love both? For different reasons?

THAT'S what it's all about.

Damn... DU is going nuts.

[Inland]

93. No, it's not "just like."

The flags are being flown at a march that is about immigration, telling me that some want to be Mexicans living in America rather than becoming Americans or Mexican Americans. To me, it's an ad for the guest worker program, for aliens who are here with no tie other than a paycheck.

Don't equate it with a parade on one day a year, or a bar addy for Dos Equis.

[LostinVA]

86. dupe

[LostinVA]

83. Gosh, better tell those Irish-Americans that then, etc., etc., etc.

What a perfect 1880 attitude... assimilate you damn furriners, or go the hell home...

[Inland]

90. America is xenophobic and racist, now?

Of course, you have your own opinions, and you're welcome to them, but my guess is that marchers insisting that immigrants want to live in America should probaly pick a theme and stick to it, like "America is an okay place, and not just because LostinVa lives here."

[LostinVA]

94. WTF are you talking about?

Again, some kind of weird word twisting. You should go work on Madison Avenue or in DC or something.

Many Americans are xenophobic and racist,a nd many posters on DU -- including on this thread -- are also showing off these attitudes.

But, you already know that... and like just posting stuff that has nothing to do with anything. *yawn* The John Birch Society may need a new PR person -- you'd be perfect.

I have no idea why you're using my name.... you kinda like to just make up stuff. Oops! I just hit the Ignore button. Poof!

[Inland]

97. dupe

dupe

[Inland]

98. Wow, you're really a demogogue. How shameful.

You drop stuff like "john birch" and "1880" in your reply as if it applies to me, you don't explain it, you don't support it, it's just a fucking insult because you disagree with me on something.

I guess there's a type that cant' do anyting except that. So sick.

[countryjake]

102. Thank you!

I was beginning to think I'd landed on a board crawling with aliens!

[LeftCoast]

104. Locking

This post has degenerated into a flame-fest.