So how do you feel about Affirmative Action?

[Horse with no Name]

Do you think it is right for a black person (ie Condi Rice) who used Affirmative Action to get to her station in life, to be used at the tool to shut the door behind her on many other deserving Black students?
Kind of like "I got mine--screw you" mentality, don't you think?
However, the immigration issue is very much like this.
Most of our ancestors came over here--some legally, some otherwise--to make a better life for their families.
So do you think it is right to say "Well I am here now, they can shut the door"?
Was there a directive left for us by the forefathers to "close the door" at any given point?
Our country ONCE held a promise of new beginnings for immigrants.
I hate to see that all end because of our fear of not having enough for ourselves.

[skipos]

1. In theory, I think an economic based affirmative action might

make more sense than a color based one. I am not firm in this decision, so feel free to tell me why I am wrong.

[Horse with no Name]

6. I have always personally felt

that Affirmative Action was, in a small token way, a form of reparations for what our country did to slaves.
I believe that Black students don't have the same opportunities as White students. We haven't advanced nearly as far as we should in this area.

[dogday]

2. Everyone worried about Hispanic jobs yet

nobody speaks of all the jobs lost to outsourcing and insourcing.. Those are our jobs people, not the ones the hispanics have been doing... Our jobs are in India and Pakistan and they are bringing more people here to this country to work our jobs for less money...


I just don't get it????:wtf:

[Horse with no Name]

4. The real issue

is that we have more in common with the Mexican workers than we think.
Nobody is willing to stand to force the hands of the "bossman".
We should be standing for unions.
We should be standing for equal and fair pay for all workers.
We should be standing for workers rights everywhere...yet, we are standing for criminalizing illegal Mexican workers.
We are making them the scapegoat for the failed policies of this administration and the corruption on both sides of the border.
They want to feed their kids--just like you do.
We should find a way to work with them and strengthen the position of the worker against the "bossman". That way, everyone wins.

[dogday]

5. Absolutely, I agree

they are not our problem...

[Karenina]

16. Affirmative action is a flawed analogy

Your post above is, once again, right on target. This is a Workers vs Capitalists issue. One element missing from all these threads is the devastation American capitalist have wrought on traditional farming in South America. No one asks, "Why are so many being displaced?" What happens when Big Agro dumps U.S. produce in Mexico, undercutting the locals?

[countryjake]

27. NAFTA, CAFTA, FTAA (Amer Agri-business) =starving worker=displacement

All of the Americas are suffering because of these agreements signed behind closed doors by our leaders.

Many hit the streets back when NAFTA first reared its ugly head, unions and workers all over the Western Hemisphere protested, but the right pushed it through, Clinton signed it, and now we are suffering the results. CAFTA just glided thru with nary a peep, same story. Unions and farm workers in this country were shouting to the rooftops, but our government could care less about people who sell their labor for a living. Fascists do their double dealing with one hand and point and say, "Oh, look at those angry brown people!" with the other!

Our country is who forced these people to become "illegal" in the first place!

[Karenina]

28. Hel-lo!!!

and BINGO!!! :hi:

[4morewars]

3. "I got mine--screw you" is the FOUNDATION that the GOP...

...was built upon.

If that is not the way you feel, then there is no space for you in the big repuke tent !

[mitchum]

14. Unfortunately, it is also the foundation that much of the US was built...

upon.
Just one of the reasons that I don't participate in the sentimentality of jingoism

[bryant69]

7. I think we should open the door to more immigration

That said I don't think we should tolerate illegal immigration.

Also Affirmative Action is not intended to be now and forever - it is a transitional thing, to move from the racist society of the 1950s to the colorblind society of the 2230s (or whenever). Immigration is more or less permenant until we do away with nations entirely (also sometime after 2230).

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Katherine Brengle]

8. What I don't understand is...

Why don't we just make it easier for Mexicans to come here legally?

They are going to come anyway, so why don't we accept it, and make sure that as many of them as possible who want to come here can do it without breaking the law?

[bryant69]

17. Well there are business reasons I guess

Workers who come here legally will lose most of what makes them attractive to American businesses. I mean if they have to pay them what work is worth in the US, what's the point? might as well hire Americans. Plus they don't have the deportation to hold over the heads of any workers who think about unionizing.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[MadMaddie]

9. I agree with you especially about Condi and Thomas.....

I don't think closing the door is the answer, however; I think the door needs to be monitored and that everyone that wants to come in has a fair chance like the next person and does it by the rules.

Our country still holds the promise of new beginnings for immigrants...

Yes, we should welcome immigrants as we always have...the Immigrants that came from Ellis Island went through lenghty processes and lines etc to get legal identification etc....eventually becoming American Citizens....they must follow the laws and processes in place.(Not talking about the new laws the Repugs are trying to pass)

We African Americans were brought over on ships and had to fight tooth and nail to obtain the very cherished American rights....

This administration among others has failed to address the issue and hold Mexico and the rest of Latin America responsible for part of the problem. We have to get at the root of the problem...why are the citizens fleeing these countries? Obviously poverty, crime, corrupt governments no vital industries etc...

Many of the cities that are inundated with illegal immigrants...the infrastructure of the cities.. hospitals, police etc are stretched to the limit.....the government continues to cut funding to these cities....If we don't address these issues there will be no place for the immigrants to come to...to achive the American dream...

[booley]

10. It's a double edged swrod

Yes, several minorities have suffered under unfair economic repression.

However, I recall an incident I had during college.

There was a teacher who taught video. He did corporate video, knew his stuff, was a really good teacher and really popular with the students.

And when talking about this teacher to another student in his class, the student agreed that he with the description I gave above but added "yeah, but you know he only got hired becuase he's black."

Affirmative action undoubtidly was needed right after segregation was ended. But there is a stigma there as well. The merits of this teacher won't matter, people will think the only reason got his job is because he's black.

Now, as to Condi Rice, she is most certainly unqualified. Her specialty was the USSR and she was totoally wrong in all of her assesments about the country. Her tenure in the White House ha sbeen disaterouse (literally). OF all the potential black female canidates, surely they could have found some one better. (Ahh, but someone better who was also a Republican ideologue? Probably not. Same reason Thomas was chosen despite his lack luster credentials)

Affirmative Action needs seriouse reform. I am not smart enough to claim to know exactly what kind (maybe limit it to education based on economic class?) But it's obvious something has to change.

[TahitiNut]

11. The individual doesn't "use" Affirmative Action.

Affirmative Action, as originally promulgated, was a Last Resort to achieve something approaching a demographic balance within a company or organization. It was originally conceived as a civil remedial approach in companies with an extended history of failure.

Thus, Affirmative Action is "used" by a company/organization when all else has failed. That's not to say that some companies establish an Affirmative Action program either misguidedly or maliciously. They do.

Discussions of Affirmative Action are often rife with misrepresentations. When folks gnash their teeth and lament the 'injustice' of hiring/promoting someone 'less qualified' merely because they satisfy some demographic need, these folks rare ly question who was hired/promoted just before this and why the 'last resort' got to be a LAST resort. Furthermore, absolutely no Affirmative Action precept compels the hiring or promotion of someone that's unqualified. It just ain't so. No way. No how. Lastly, Affirmative Action isn't a quota system nor is it unrepresentative of the demographics of the existing and available labor force from which such hires are made. The size of the region from which qualified candidates are recruited varies according to the job. Some jobs are advertised and recruited only in the immediate vicinity of the job site and others are recruited nationwide.

Any organization that has to establish an Affirmative Action program, either under coercion (federal contractors or due to a civil suit) or voluntarily, has some serious problems with their regular recruitment processes, imho. The strange thing is that companies want to trot out such programs as some sort of virtue. In my opinion, it's a red flag. If they aren't hiring and promoting a diverse workforce then they've got some internal 'cultural' problems that will sure show up in the quality of work life.

There's no good reason on God's Green Earth that an organization's workforce wouldn't naturally reflect the diversity of the labor force in the area where they operate. None.



One other thing should be very, very clear: A diverse workforce is an ADVANTAGE to a company. It's NOT a 'duty' or 'penalty' - it's a path toward excellence! Show me a company without a diverse workforce and I'll show you a company that produces crap, has crap services, and is a failure just waiting to happen.

[mainegreen]

12. Affirmative action doesn't mean everyone gets in.

Just some. Just like we have some immigration now.

[NoAmericanTaliban]

13. It is discrimination no matter how you look at it. Two wrongs don't make a

right. Don't forget about Powell - He benefited just like Condi did. A diverse business environment is a good thing, but the gov't should not get involved in setting quotas for schools & businesses. If it is a good thing they will do it on their own.

[Lerkfish]

15. I don't equate Condi Rice with affirmative action, for one thing.

I consider it tokenism, which is a vastly different thing.

and I don't see affirmative action as being related to immigration, except obliquely.

either you don't understand affirmative action, or I don't. :shrug:

[Horse with no Name]

18. Affirmative action is not related to immigration

I never said it was.
My point was that, if I am not mistaken, that Condi Rice utilized AA, then, in the Bush cabinet, seeks to end it.
In other words, she climbed the ladder and then pushed it away for all those behind her.
Our ancestors came over here with a promise for a better life. Yet, now that we are here, we seek to close the door to the promise of others behind us.
That was the only distinction between the two.

[Lerkfish]

19. you have evidence she availed herself of AA?

just curious.

[Horse with no Name]

20. I had heard she did

Let me look for a link to back that up.

[Horse with no Name]

21. It didn't take long

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/01/21/politics/main537363.shtml
>>>snip
Rice said she had benefited from affirmative action during her career at Stanford University.

"I think they saw a person that they thought had potential, and yes, I think they were looking to diversify the faculty," she said.

>>>>snip

National security adviser Condoleezza Rice said she backed Mr. Bush's decision to step into the case before the Supreme Court and to argue that the University of Michigan's methods were unconstitutional. She said on NBC's Meet the Press Sunday that there are "problems" with the university's selection policies, and cited the points system.

But she also said race can be a factor in colleges' selection process. The brief the Bush administration filed with the Supreme Court was silent on that issue of whether race can be a factor under some circumstances. It also does not ask the court to overturn the 1978 Bakke decision that found racial preferences are not unconstitutional.

[Lerkfish]

25. cool. thanks. I was unaware of that.

however, it still is based on her perception and opinion, which may or may not be true.

regardless, I'll concede your point, but MY point was that where she is NOW is due to tokenism.

[Horse with no Name]

26. And I won't argue with you at all

:)

[Dorian Gray]

22. I don't understand

how the example that you are using is about Affirmative Action.

I do support AA, though I think that it should be focus on both minority and socio-economic class rather than solely the first. Sadly, I think a lot more could benefit from it that way.

[Crazy Guggenheim]

23. I have to step out for a while and put my thoughts in later. I've seen

minorities oppose AA too. :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

[Minnesota Libra]

24. I think we need affirmative action for the sake of everyone BUT........

......I absolutely loathe those people who make it in life - using affirmative action - and then act like they couldn't care less if anyone else makes it or not. To me that is nothing but a hypocrite and I hate hypocrites more than anything else in life. :rant: