Ever get a speeding ticket? You are an ILLEGAL PERSON!!!!!11

[jim3775]

Some of the rhetoric surrounding the immigration debate is getting out of hand.

Traffic violations are considered misdemeanors. So are getting caught with a small amount of marijuana, spray painting the side of a building and picking up a hooker.

Entering the US without a permit is also a misdemeanor, according to California state law the penalties for a misdemeanors are:

(a) A first violation of subdivision (c) or (d) of Section 423.2 is a misdemeanor, punishable by imprisonment in a county jail for a period of not more than six months and a fine not to exceed two thousand dollars ($2,000).

(b) A second or subsequent violation of subdivision (c) or (d) of Section 423.2 is a misdemeanor, punishable by imprisonment in a county jail for a period of not more than six months and a fine not to exceed five thousand dollars ($5,000).

Now as far as I know the Kennedy- McCain bill (which people like Lou Dobbs call an amnesty) would force immigrants to pay a $2000 fine before they can apply for legal immigration. This means that illegal immigration fits into class (a), just like traffic tickets and fender benders.

I don't know enough about the American immigration situation to debate the finer points, but I do know when rhetoric is getting out of hand. People who are screaming "BUT THEY ARE ILLEGALS!!! THEY BROKE U.S. LAW!!!!!!!11" are being silly.

Do we call people who are out on bail for being caught posessing two grams of pot "illegals"?

And before you reply "don't tell me what to say", I know, I know. I'm not trying to stifle debate, you can say whatever you want.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

1. i just dont understand how someone who is American can say

but those people are "illegal" with a straight face...aside from native americans, i can understand how they say it...the rest of us are all pretty much illegal.

[Minnesota Libra]

6. Our ancestors came to this country the LEGAL way-that's the difference nt

[liam_laddie]

9. Uhhh, I believe

that "our ancestors" kinda stole the country out from under the
original residents...Native Americans. Not exactly a legal way
in my ethical system.

[LostinVA]

20. And, there was no "legal" way until quite recently

So, if your people came over too much before 1880... they were "Illegals," and y'all should pack up and go pack to the furrin country you came from...

Do people really think we've had immigration laws and customs, etc. since the 1700's???

[liam_laddie]

41. Got my paternal gr-gr-grandaddy's

citizenship paper from 1840! It's cool to imagine him and his wife
becoming USAers. In fact, nowadays, if your parent or grandparent
(not earlier) was Irish, from which I descend, you can apply for Irish
citizenship; think it's automatic (if not now, it was until very recently.)
If the euro-dollar rate were a lot better and it wasn't so far up the
latitudes, I'd strongly consider spending half the year over there. :beer:

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

8. oh my god!

whiter than white people?

can you hear yourself?

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LostinVA]

21. Damn! Sorry I missed some more BIRCHER RHETORIC

See??? So many of these posters saying all this, "our jobs... our jobs..." quickly segue into "disrespecting our flag," then into this apparently horrible rant -- Lioness, can you PM me what she said?

[jim3775]

10. This is exactly what I mean by "silly, out of hand rhetoric"

"whiter than 'white people'"

So I take it you are afflicted with albinism or something?

[Proud2BaLiberalMom]

15. No, I am not...

an albino, but if I were, I would be proud of that too.
If I were black I would be proud. What I was referring
to was the fact that a lot of people group lantinos/hispanics
together. We are not the same. Would you group Germans and Italians
together? I think not. The real point is that we are LEGAL AMERICANS,
while those that break our laws of immigration are not legal. Plain and
simple. Sorry if I spoke over your head.

[jim3775]

19. Over my head?

You are the one talking about white pride and hordes of murderer rapist mexicans destroying society.

if that is over my head, than I'm glad I live down here.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

31. seconded

[Minnesota Libra]

17. jim3775 am sorry that you can't tell the difference between.............

....."whiter than white people" - a very racist comment and the LAW. Illegal Aliens are here ILLEGALLY - that means they are breaking the law. Breaking the law has NOTHING to do with race.:puke: Too bad you can tell the two apart.:wow:

[Proud2BaLiberalMom]

22. Listen...

We can keep arguing about this, OR
we can stop these ILLEGALS from taking
over our free country. Last I checked
we still had freedom of speech.

Fact is it is the illegal mexicans that are the
only people I see breaking the immigration laws.
Do you see Canadians illegally entering the
United States? NO.

We can't fix the problem if we don't come
face to face with what it is, and in my view
it's the illegal mexican population that is
the biggest threat to our country right now.

[LostinVA]

23. Illegals is just like saying n*gger, you know that? I bet you do.

Thats' how it sounds in all of these Bircher rhetoric posters I've been unfortunate enough to read. Illegals, spics, wetbacks, micks, kikes, polacks, krauts, bohunks, wops, guineas.... it never frigging changes in this country. It makes me SICK.

This is DU...

And, sorry: Canadians DO enter the US illegally, lots of Irish nd English do, etc. If you think Mexicans are the only one doing this, you are so incredibly misinformed and ignorant that nothing else you say can be considered a legit. Because you are 100% WRONG.

Yup, those crazy Mexicans!

Seriously -- I'm hiding all of these threads, because racism and xenophobia make me sick -- and that is what you all are preaching, no matter WHAT you think you're saying...

[Minnesota Libra]

27. Read post #26 - I have NEVER mentioned country or race, or color, if......

.....they - anyone from anywhere - are illegal aliens they need to go home and come here LEGALLY - LEGALLY ONLY. Now read post # 26 get over the race thing.

[Inland]

40. Fuck, just give us the PC vocab already. Tell us the words to use.

I mean, nobody is saying spic or wop or any of that shit, but that won't stop you from equating any old word we use with the vilest of racial epithets. So just give us the word or phrase for someone who is in this country illegally so we can discuss the subject without getting an accusation of racism that derails any rational debate whatsoever. And for jabber's sake, don't say "human being" because that's the word for people who are in this country legally, too.

I don't care WHAT they are called, but I am sick and tired of you using the smallest possible shit to smear people with an accusation of racism and an announcment that you were going to put on ignore or something, the former making me glad of the latter. So just tell us the OFFICIALLY APPROVED GOOD GUY NOT RACIST XENOPHOBE WORDS that will spare us the gas.

[Minnesota Libra]

26. I have NEVER made a distinction about who illegal aliens are, I...........

.....believe illegal aliens FROM ANYWHERE are still illegal aliens. Others might pick out one race or group but I NEVER HAVE AND NEVER WILL. Again, illegal aliens FROM ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD - I don't care what race they are, what color they are, or what country they come from, if they are here illegally they ARE BREAKING THE LAW. Pure and simple - breaking the law - go home - do it legally!! Now is there ANYTHING racist about this??

[Dorian Gray]

30. There are a lot of illegal white people around, as well...

In NYC alone, I personally know a bunch of Irish who are living here illegally. Many of them live in Sunnyside/Woodside, Queens. They live in an apartment with lots of friends, they work in restaurants and bars, and they are being paid under the table. It's not just a racial thing. There are more than "Mexicans" coming here that we need to think about.

Illegal Mexicans are NOT the only people breaking the immigration laws. There are Arabic, Irish, Chinese and many other ethnicities coming into this country illegally every day.

[jim3775]

25. I know about the law, I quoted sections of it in my OP.

In California; entering the U.S. without the proper papers is punishable by a fine of up to $2000 and up to six months in a county jail (which would be pretty hard to do to 11 million people, but that is beside the point).

[tyedyeto]

35. I cannot find any documents that tell me...

my ancestors came here legally. I was born in CA more than 50 years ago. Am I an American?

[shenmue]

2. Speeding tickets are not quite the same.

And as for all of us being illegal...no, my ancestors came in legally. And they stayed.

[jim3775]

5. My title was more sarcasm than a literal statement, but...

I suppose you are partly right about the traffic tickets.

There are two types of traffic tickets:

Infraction Violations - An infraction is a violation of, or failure to comply with certain provisions of the Vehicle Code, local ordinance or other law or statute. Punishment for an infraction is a fine only. An infraction is not punishable by imprisonment; the maximum sentence on an infraction is a $250 fine (plus assessment and fees).

Misdemeanor Violations - Except in cases where a different punishment is prescribed by any law of this state, misdemeanor offenses are punishable by imprisonment in the county jail not exceeding one year, or by a fine not exceeding $1000 (plus assessment and fees), or by both.

http://www.occourts.org/traffic/

[LostinVA]

24. Did your ancestors come before 1880?

If so... ILLEGAL!!!

[slaveplanet]

33. 1822 Land Grants

When Mexico first gained it's Independence after hundreds of years of Spanish subjection. In the northern parts of Mexico, what do you suppose the entire population of northern Mexico was? I've heard less than 100,000 Mexican nationals for all The southwest states including Texas. It was wilderness. There were Indians, there wasn't much else.

The truth of the matter is, young Mexico had no hope of protecting these lands, much less enforce laws or develope its natural resourses.

So what did they do in hopes to grow the population?

They gave away land grants to Americans. Is that illegal too?

This wasn't the Spanish that did this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico#Mexican_independence

The mostly vacant northern claims of the Spanish were claimed and almost totally ignored since little wealth could be extracted from them and the fledgling governments already had more than enough problems.

Soon after achieving its independence from Spain, the Mexican government, in an effort to populate some of its sparsely-settled northern land claims, awarded land grants in a remote area of the northernmost state of Coahuila y Tejas to thousands of immigrant families from the United States, on the condition that the settlers convert to Catholicism and assume Mexican citizenship. It also forbade the importation of slaves, a condition that, like the others, was largely ignored.


There's always moral and legal problems to our set paradigms.

History is complicated.

Sometimes people really are invited, but more often they are not.

[PsN2Wind]

36. Not true

My fathers family came here when this was a British colony and helped kick the Brits asses out. So I'm probably as legal as most you'll find in the country.

[Doctor_J]

3. Smirk's been arrested five times, for DUI and Cocaine possession

what's his status?

[pitohui]

12. he's a criminal

he was more than arrested he was convicted was he not, at least on the DUIs

and we're pretty sure he had a community service sentence on the cocaine altho the records seem scrubbed

i'm fine w. the term "criminal" being used for such

[napi21]

4. No we call them criminals. If you commit a crime, wether it be a

misdemeanot or a felony, you are a criminal! Would you prefer we call anyone who crossed the border and STAYED a criminal? OK, we can do that!

I suspect the word "illegals" came into the language because people didn't want to say the word criminal, and it just sounds a bit odd to say "criminal aliens". That indicates someone who crossed the border illegally, & committed an additional crime.

[pitohui]

11. it shouldn't be a misdemeanor

crossing a national border is not a petty offense and it shouldn't be treated like a speeding ticket

it should be a felony and dealt with as such

i suggest you illegally immigrate to mexico, get a job there, and check out how well you are treated

our borders are worth defending and i'm sorry that some don't think so, the dollar bill and the chance to get cheap labor are worth selling our country down the river for in their book, it's shameful but it's time to stop fighting about this on a progressive site, the GOP are the ones who want and hire slave labor, why don't you let them fight for this issue themselves instead of giving them an assist

by the way we call people out on bail caught w. pot "criminals" in my state, just so you know

and yes, if you keep speeding and don't pay your ticket, again, you go to jail, and you are a "criminal"

obey the law or at least once you get caught, chill on the speeding and dope-smoking if you don't want to go to jail and be labeled a criminal likewise, if you can't chill, maybe your dope-smoking isn't so harmless any more, maybe you've got a problem, my friend, if drugs are interfering w. your life, that's a problem even if it's just pot

[jim3775]

16. Okay...

"crossing a national border is not a petty offense"

Technically it is.

"i suggest you illegally immigrate to mexico, get a job there, and check out how well you are treated"

Apples to oranges. Sodomy is a crime in Saudi Arabia, does that mean that before the supreme court of the U.S. legalized it Arab-Americans shouldn't have had anal sex because the penalties for it we much heavier in their country of origin. That doesn't make much sense.

"by the way we call people out on bail caught w. pot "criminals" in my state, just so you know"

I think you need to be convicted at trial to be called a "criminal"


"and yes, if you keep speeding and don't pay your ticket, again, you go to jail, and you are a "criminal""

Yes, but we don't call them "illegal people" do we?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

14. For Logic's Sake, The Analogy Is Severely Flawed.

The person you reference out on bail for being caught possessing pot had a what could be a one time violation that is now no longer active. The illegal immigrants, however, maintain the illegality for every moment they remain on american soil illegally. During that entire time, yes, they are 'illegals'. Now, to make the analogy logical, it would be that the pot carrying people are still carrying pot, always carrying pot, and will continue to constantly be in possession of pot. Now, if that was the case, I would see nothing wrong with referring to those groups of people in constant possession of pot always as 'illegals'. Though the term isn't used in slang for people like that, if it started being used that way it wouldn't be inaccurate either. But the analogy as it was, a singular incident vs an ongoing constant breaking of the law, are completely unequatable.

For the record, this logical argument above has nothing to do with the immigration argument itself. I was just looking at it in terms of an invalid analogy. :)

[Igel]

18. I assume you're taking issue with the use of 'illegals'

as a noun.

"Illegal", using the adjective as a noun, is dubbed substantivization (by some; others have other names for it: conversion, coercion ... you picks your theory, you gets your terminology). Sometimes we need a verbal context to help in the coercion: "Do you like the red or blue jelly beans?" "I like the reds." Sometimes the location = context. I can go into a fast food joint and ask the clerk for a "hot and spicy" or for "one black and two with sugar" and get the appropriate chicken sandwich or coffees (or get something rather different if I'm in a strip joint and slipping the manager money). Sometimes the adjective comes to be considered a full-fledged noun: e.g. a jockey's silks, a musician's blacks. Sometimes the context is so obvious it doesn't need stating. "I like strawberry, but not vanilla." I think most people will understand 'ice cream' (maybe milkshake). "Do you prefer blondes or brunettes?" is usually clear. But presumably that's not the real issue; the real issue isn't a nicety of English morphology, but of how we should parse 'illegal immigrant'.

An "illegal person" would be a person who's existence or presence was illegal, rather like "an illegal gun" or "illegal milk". It's assigning an attribute to a concrete noun. I guess it's a possible phrase, "illegal person", but I have trouble with finding a suitable context. Maybe if we had a world in which cloning was easily doable, but quite illegal, we could have an 'illegal person'.

In "illegal migrant" (or immigrant or emigrant, or even 'entrant' or 'participant') we're not assigning an attribute to a concrete noun, so possible contexts are relatively easy to find. The "migrant" isn't illegal in the same sense as a "illegal gun" is, it's not the 'noun part' of 'migrant' that's being assigned a property. Formally, 'illegal' may look and act like an adjective, but can't be construed as an adjective; semantically it's an adverb, modifying the underlying (or implicit) action. An "immigrant" is "a person who has immigrated". But an "illegal immigrant" isn't "an illegal person who has immigrated", but "a person who has illegally immigrated". It's called a bracketing paradox: on the surface, it looks like <[illegal> + ] is the grammar, but semantically the needed derivation is <[illegal + immigr-(ate)> + -ant]. Sometimes 'unpacking' the phrase aides in figuring out how you're misparsing it; sometimes you have to look at the entire paradigm to sort out where the ambiguities can exist, and common sense to see how to understand a construction. The ambiguities of English morphology allow the misparsing, but nothing in English grammar forces the misparsing; some people simply don't understand that they don't need to misparse, or they find some advantage in misparsing.


Grice taught that one fundamental aspect of communication in English-language discourse was "the cooperative principle". Sadly, communication has faltered and frayed; that doesn't mean Grice was wrong, if anything, he's been shown right.

[slaveplanet]

37. English teachers are like cops

They always show up at the most inopportune moments, and are never around when you need them.

[Imagevision]

28. Atta, got a speeding ticket by the Florida troopers lead up to 9-11

[slaveplanet]

39. That's why the Patriot act applies in acts of terra or crime

all criminals are terrorists, and all terror is crime and it'll never be rescinded until they take the Jack down.

[Cleita]

29. Yes, everyone breaks the law now and then.

But to make this criminal is really over the top to punish people who just want to work. Isn't all that prison time going to cost the taxpayer a lot?

[simonm]

32. Traffic Violations are not Misdemeanors

Traffic violations are infractions and not misdemeanors. A misdemeanor charge is a criminal offense and provides a right to a court appointed attorney and jury trial.

When someone gets a speeding ticket they do not automatically have the right to a jury trial and lawyer cause it is a non-criminal offense.

[PsN2Wind]

34. BUT presenting phony documents

to get a job is a felony. And if they're working they have to show documents.
So now throw out another strawman.

[Inland]

38. A little idiotic. It's a continuing illegal immigration *status*

borne of the fact they are continuing to break the law just by being here. If I lost my license, I'd be an "illegal driver" for as long as I drove. If I stop driving, I'm not an illegal driver.

When the illegal immigrants leave, they too will have ceased to be lawbreakers and no longer be illegal immigrants. They'll be legal whatevers of some other country. Good, lawabiding citizens of some other country.

Rather than argue that pot or immigration should be legal, everyone tries to remove the very words for illegal from the vocabulary. It's a bullshit way of avoiding the debate.