Thom Hartmann on the Immigration Battle.

[Cobalt Violet]

I don't know if this has been posted here or not, but some may find this interesting. He really nails it. A must read.

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0329-21.htm

Published on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 by CommonDreams.org
Today's Immigration Battle - Corporatists vs. Racists (and Labor is Left Behind)

<snip>Americans will do virtually any job if they're paid a decent wage. This isn't about immigration - it's about economics. Industry and agriculture won't collapse without illegal labor, but the middle class is being crushed by it.

The reason why thirty years ago United Farm Workers' Union (UFW) founder Caesar Chávez fought against illegal immigration, and the UFW turned in illegals during his tenure as president, was because Chávez, like progressives since the 1870s, understood the simple reality that labor rises and falls in price as a function of availability.

<snip>
Progressives fought - and many lost their lives in the battle - to limit the pool of "labor hours" available to the Robber Barons from the 1870s through the 1930s and thus created the modern middle class. They limited labor-hours by pushing for the 50-hour week and the 10-hour day (and then later the 40-hour week and the 8-hour day). They limited labor-hours by pushing for laws against child labor (which competed with adult labor). They limited labor-hours by working for passage of the 1935 Wagner Act that provided for union shops.
<snip>

But if illegal immigrants won't pick our produce or bus our tables won't our prices go up? (The most recent mass-emailed conservative variation of this argument, targeting paranoid middle-class Americans says: "Do you want to pay an extra $10,000 for your next house?") The answer is simple: Yes

<snip>

So many great points in this article I don't know which ones to snip.

[liberalnurse]

1. I heard this phrase used by another DU'er...

Nail meet hammer! This is the bottom line......The repug/corporate goons are out to drain the blood from the middle class.

Think of it this way.....

If You work for a dollar, you are the slave; If your dollar works for You, you are the master.

[Elwood P Dowd]

4. It may have been me.

I've used it a couple of times in this debate. For some strange reason, may liberals just don't "get it" on this issue.

[Cobalt Violet]

5. Maybe they don't know their liberal history.

Or the history of the middle class in this country in the first place.

[Elwood P Dowd]

7. That, plus they become all emotional and start name calling

Mexican-hater, racist, protectionist, etc. They think this country has unlimited resources and employment opportunities. They totally ignore the Mexican government's role in this. Like I've said dozens of times and Thom says in this article - Mexico is exporting their crime and their poverty to the USA.

[Cobalt Violet]

9. Even Thom is amazed by this.

I love this paragraph:

It's equally astonishing to hear the few unions going along with this (in the sad/desperate hope of picking up new members) turn their backs on Caesar Chávez and the traditions and history of America's Progressive and Union movements by embracing illegal immigration.

[Elwood P Dowd]

10. I recommended your thread for The Greatest Page

Thanks so much for finding that article. I've been saying the same thing forever and fighting fellow DUers over this. I'm old, stupid, and don't possess the writing skills of Thom, so maybe this will get some attention.

[Cobalt Violet]

12. Thanks.

I've been trying to say it too in my owe very inarticulate way. And I'm sick of being told I'm not a progressive, or that I'm a racist, or that I'm drinking right wing kool-aid when in fact it is quite the opposite.

[hwmnbn]

71. It is also complicit with the US government ......

About 2 years ago, they initiated an Identification Card system known as "matricula." The way this works is any illegal could get one from any Mexican embassy in the US. It would be an acceptable form of identification here. You could open bank accounts in the US with it.

The true purpose of this scheme is to tax all the money being sent home by these illegals. This "send home" money is a major factor in the Mexican economy and now with the co-operation of money transfer institutions they can document every person on both ends of any transfer of any amount.

Previously they would only be interested in transfers over $3,000 dollars. Now both the financial institutions and the Mexican government take a piece of all the action. Blood-sucking mofos!!:mad:

[Cobalt Violet]

73. The send home money is the 2 largest source of money.

The first is oil.

Very sad.

[Elwood P Dowd]

2. Supply and Demand

Keep that supply of illigal immigrants flowing, and wages for working folks will keep dropping. Some more from Thom..

Meanwhile, the millions of American citizens who came to this nation as legal immigrants, who waited in line for years, who did the hard work to become citizens, are feeling insulted, humiliated, and conned.

Shouldn't we be compassionate? Of course.

But there is nothing compassionate about driving down the wages of any nation's middle class. It's the most cynical, self-serving, greedy, and sociopathic behavior you'll see from our "conservatives."

There is nothing compassionate about being the national enabler of a dysfunctional oligarchy like Mexico. An illegal workforce in the US sending an estimated $17 billion to Mexico every year - second only in national income to that country's oil revenues - supports an antidemocratic, anti-worker, hyperconservative administration there that gleefully ships out of that nation the "troublesome" Mexican citizens - those lowest on the economic food-chain and thus most likely to present "labor unrest" - to the USA. Mexico (and other "sending nations") need not deal with their own social and economic problems so long as we're willing to solve them for them - at the expense of our middle class. Democracy in Central and South America be damned - there are profits to be made for Wal-Mart!

[Poiuyt]

3. Thom Hartmann is one of the most brilliant people around

He always puts things in a historic perspective. I would love to see him arguing on TV.

[Cobalt Violet]

6. I've been listening to him filling in for Randi today.

I listening to him for the second time. I just can't believe so many other Democrats don't get it at all.

[stepnw1f]

8. I Have Been Listening to Him

for three years now. The man has brilliant insight.

[Cobalt Violet]

11. I can see why.

He is my kind of progressive. I'm so glad he spoke of this issue.

[joemurphy]

15. I dunno about this "destroying the middle class" thing.

I don't think it's "middle class" people that pick fruit, clean offices at night, serve as maids in our hotels, or work in our Mickey Dees. I suppose it's true some jobs (such as blue-collar construction jobs -- roofing, dry-walling, etc.) are going to Hispanics that pay "middle class" salaries, but not that many. Most of those are "grunt" jobs. For example, to get the higher paying construction jobs, you need to read and speak English to handle blueprints, order supplies, estimate job costs, and negotiate contracts. Illiterates and non-English speakers don't make big bucks in construction either. I kind of wonder sometimes if the "depressive" effect of Hispanics on "middle class" wages is overdone. I think the effect is more profound on the wages of America's underclass.

The converse is also true. The effect of cheap labor is to make what cheap labor produces cheaper from a cost standpoint too. The "middle class" benefits from cheap food, cheap house construction, and cheaper services because of cheap labor. The next time a "middle class" American bites into a piece of chicken, he might want to stop and think about why it's so cheap.

The nation benefits too from the hard-working labor pool that the immigrants bring to the table. There's a lot to be said for a work ethic and people coming here with a strong desire to better the situations of themselves and their kids. Immigrants, after all, made America. It's an old saw, but it's true.

There's also a demographic angle to consider. Baby-boomers are leaving the job market. There aren't enough American workers to pay for their retirement. So Social Security and pensions are now threatened. The way I see it, an influx of immigration helps that problem so long as they are paying into the social security system (and by all accounts, most of them are).

I don't really see any answers when the economics of immigration are as weighted as they are now. The jobs are here. Because they are, the immigrants will come from places where there are no jobs.

The real problem is Mexico. If we want to stop immigration, we've got to find a way to upgrade life and working conditions there. Until we do, we're going to have illegal immigration. And short of shooting Mexicans trying to cross the border, I don't see us interdicting the northward flow with more Border Patrols or miles and miles of fencing.

[Cobalt Violet]

22. If those jobs payed a living wage the middle class would do them.

If there wasn't such a glut of cheap illegal immigrant labor those jobs would have to pay a living wage.


This is about ILLEGAL immigration. Not legal immigration. There is a huge difference.

[joemurphy]

23. Maybe...although I can't remember a time when they ever did.

I have some real doubts that anyone ever made a "living wage" by ordinary American concepts working in a restaurant, as a maid, or as a laborer for a landscaping company.

Another problem. If immigration is terminated, labor costs rise. What happens then? If you want to be competitive as an employer you relocate to Asia. Or Mexico.

[PsN2Wind]

25. Actually my first real full-time job

was for a landscaping company in the Bay Area. I was paid $2.32/hr.
I was a union laborer. How much were you making in 1956?
I don't see them building houses in China and shipping them here.
And just what the hell is your problem with labor costs rising? Do you enjoy seein the shrinking of the middle class and if you aren't seeing it you're blind or not looking.

[joemurphy]

33. The "middle class" is shrinking ... but immigrants

aren't the big reason for that. The rich have been getting richer in this country for a looooooooooong time, my friend. I don't like it, but it's happening. Check out Kevin Phillips book "Wealth and Democracy" for a more definitive explanation. You can bash Mexicans all you want, but major wealth disparities have been going on here long before we had an "immigration problem".

$2.32/hr was pretty good money back in 1956. That was 50 years ago. Times change.

In 1956 I wasn't making anything. I was 7 years old. Landscaping jobs aren't unionized where I live. Haven't been for eons. And they didn't pay much before the Mexicans came here -- not enough that anyone would call such jobs "middle class". Now Mexicans instead of Americans do them. They still don't pay much. Fence off the border and deport the Mexicans and they still won't pay a "middle class" "living wage".

I have a problem with labor costs rising if they make my food, housing, and other expenses rise. If that happens, I lose money. Then I'm not so middle class either, am I?

Labor is a factor of production. If capital needs labor to produce something, either the capital will go to the labor or vice versa.
Simplistic solutions like Hartmann's -- boot the Mexicans and we'll all be "middle class" and happy again -- are for people looking for scapegoats and not for anyone that has any sense of what is really happening to America's "middle class".

And if you think being a landscaping gardener in America today is a "middle class" job, I seriously doubt that you are going to agree with much of anything else I have to say.

[PsN2Wind]

38. You're right

I doubt that I will agree with much of anything you have to say since the gist would seem to be I've got mine, screw you.
I can just hope that you lose your job to someone willing to work for less.

[joemurphy]

39. And your answer is, I haven't got enough...Screw the Mexicans.

[PsN2Wind]

46. No Joe actually I'm doing pretty friggin good

haven't even had to sell off my Vette or Six Pack Duster yet. Thinking about the motorhome though.
However I do have concern for the well being of my fellow citizens, much more than I do persons coming here illegally. It's fairly obvious you have no such concerns.

[RagingInMiami]

49. So you wish unemployment on a man because he does not agree with you?

What do you to people when they cut you off in traffic?

[Cobalt Violet]

41. You lose money on cheap labor too.

You pay for the immigrants in prison, schools and, emerency rooms. That's one cheap head of lettuce isn't it.


http://www.cis.org/topics/costs.html

The National Research Council has estimated that the net fiscal cost of immigration ranges from $11 billion to $22 billion per year, with most government expenditures on immigrants coming from state and local coffers, while most taxes paid by immigrants go to the federal treasury. The net deficit is caused by a low level of tax payments by immigrants, because they are disproportionately low-skilled and thus earn low wages, and a higher rate of consumption of government services, both because of their relative poverty and their higher fertility.

This is especially true of illegal immigration. Even though illegal aliens make little use of welfare, from which they are generally barred, the costs of illegal immigration in terms of government expenditures for education, criminal justice, and emergency medical care are significant. California has estimated that the net cost to the state of providing government services to illegal immigrants approached $3 billion during a single fiscal year. The fact that states must bear the cost of federal failure turns illegal immigration, in effect, into one of the largest unfunded federal mandates.

[Elwood P Dowd]

42. Oh No! You gave them facts - incoming name calling alert

Put on your flack jacket and move to the shelter.

[joemurphy]

43. The National Research Council says it's a net benefit.

<http://www4.nationalacademies.org/news.nsf/isbn/0309063566?OpenDocument>

Immigration benefits the U.S. economy overall and has little negative effect on the income and job opportunities of most native-born Americans, says a new report by a panel of the National Research Council. Only in areas with high concentrations of low-skilled, low-paid immigrants are state and local taxpayers paying more on average to support the publicly funded services that these immigrants use.

"Immigrants may be adding as much as $10 billion to the economy each year," said panel chair James P. Smith, senior economist at RAND Corp., Santa Monica, Calif. "It's true that some Americans are now paying more taxes because of immigration, and native-born Americans without high school educations have seen their wages fall slightly because of the competition sparked by lower-skilled, newly arrived immigrants. But the vast majority of Americans are enjoying a healthier economy as the result of the increased supply of labor and lower prices that result from immigration"

[Elwood P Dowd]

45. The same argument was made about slavery

Slaves keep prices down and stimulate the economy.

Today, it's wage-slaves that are stimulating the economy. The wealthy elites are no different today than they were 150 years ago.

[proud2BlibKansan]

48. $6 billion paid to Social Security

and benefits are never claimed.

Just imagine where SS would be without that $6 billion.

[Elwood P Dowd]

50. Benefits are paid

We are currently paying benefits to Mexicans who have paid into the system. If you can prove that you paid into the system, you will get some benefits. If you are illegal and paid under-the-table, then you will get no benefits. BTW, 6 billion is peanuts compared to what illegal immigration is costing us.

[proud2BlibKansan]

77. Not according to this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=791179&mesg_id=791513

[Cobalt Violet]

59. 10.4 billion net loss.

Just imagine where SS would be with that $10.4 billion

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscal.pdf


Social Security and Medicare. Although we find that the net effect of illegal households is
negative at the federal level, the same is not true for Social Security and Medicare. We
estimate that illegal households create a combined net benefit for these two programs in
excess of $7 billion a year, accounting for about 4 percent of the total annual surplus in
these two programs. However, they create a net deficit of $17.4 billion in the rest of the
budget, for a total net loss of $10.4 billion. Nonetheless, their impact on Social Security
and Medicare is unambiguously positive. Of course, if the Social Security totalization agreement
with Mexico signed in June goes into effect, allowing illegals to collect Social Security,
these calculations would change.

[proud2BlibKansan]

76. I am not clear on how they are accessing SS $$

if they are illegals, how do they claim SS benefits?

[Cobalt Violet]

58. Not really.

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscal.pdf

High Cost of Cheap Labor
Illegal Immigration and the Federal Budget
<snip>

Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the
federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal
deficit of almost $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal household.



<snip>

Social Security and Medicare. Although we find that the net effect of illegal households is
negative at the federal level, the same is not true for Social Security and Medicare. We
estimate that illegal households create a combined net benefit for these two programs in
excess of $7 billion a year, accounting for about 4 percent of the total annual surplus in
these two programs. However, they create a net deficit of $17.4 billion in the rest of the
budget, for a total net loss of $10.4 billion. Nonetheless, their impact on Social Security
and Medicare is unambiguously positive. Of course, if the Social Security totalization agreement
with Mexico signed in June goes into effect, allowing illegals to collect Social Security,
these calculations would change.
<snip>


Isn't this a subsidy for agrabusiness and construction?

[Lasher]

68. Your source lumps legal and illegal immigrants together

As I understand it, the debate is only about illegal immigration, so I don't think it's legitimate to cite statistics that are derived from an examination that makes no distinction between the two.

[Patiod]

79. My grandfather supported a family of 9 as head gardener

on an estate. Today, those folks would just hire in a "service" that employs illegals, and all the money would go to the service's corporate owner (or in the best case, to the small business owner)

[Cobalt Violet]

28. Of course they did!

And you didn't need to work 2 or 3 of them either.

How is relocate to Asia going to help you roof, paint or bus tables in America?

[mzmolly]

66. I've got news for you. Many "laborers/landscapers/roofers" etc.

made up a large portion of the middle-class with the help of labor unions. You sir, are out of touch.

[OnionPatch]

69. I think so too

I can't praise Hartmann enough! I wish he were out there in the public eye more. He would be great on some of the MSM talk shows. He's so informative and has such clear thinking and framing on all the issues. And what a bastion of historical knowledge. I just love the guy. If any of you haven't listened to him before, give him a try. (ThomHartmann.com)

[sadiesworld]

13. k&r

[Elwood P Dowd]

14. Here is another point most are missing

The US economy has to create almost 2 million jobs a year just to keep up with population growth. When you add immigrants to the mix, you might need to create 2.5 million jobs. The economy hasn't been close to those numbers in years. This little fact also shows you the massive
manipulations taking place with the DOL unemployment figures.

[Cobalt Violet]

17. Democrats could use this opportunity to get these point out there.

But no....The slave-laborist always seem to win out.

[Pushed To The Left]

16. Good stuff!

It looks like the solution he is proposing is to target the employers, which I think is the way to go. I think some of the people who were protesting the Sensenbrenner bill might not have a problem with going after cheap labor employers who exploit illegal immigrants. I really think we could get a pretty good progressive consensus on that, along with a number of conservatives.

[Cobalt Violet]

19. Severe penalties on employers would be the best way to go.

"When we stop hiring and paying them, most will leave"

[Elwood P Dowd]

18. Even more that they're missing

What happens with the housing bubble pops? Millions of immigrants work in construction or construction-related areas. The housing bubble contributes to most of our GDP growth. When it pops, the GDP growth dies, we go into recession, interest rates soar, and tons of people lose their jobs.

[pat_k]

20. It's not just about economics, it's about values

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=789539&mesg_id=789539

[jmatthan]

21. Thom is way off the mark on this

Thom Hartmann may be historically very accurate, but he is way off on the mark on his stance on globalisation as well as immigration.

In promoting his opposition stance on NAFTA, etc. and the reasons for the disappearance of the middle class, Thom has lost his understanding of what is standard of living, cost of living and the middle class.

A high cost of living is not satisfactory to have a high standard of living.

If the US was clever with its immigration policy, it could dramatically reduce the cost of living and increase the standard of living of its middle class.

Outsourcing could be be of value to all its citizens, not just the corporates.

The exploitation era of imperialistic US is now over, and the people of the US has to come to terms with that.

Instead of bitching about globalisation, America has to now pay its way in this world.

Immigration could be of huge benefit to the US, except for those with blinkers . On this issue, Thom has very very narrow blinkers which are clouded by his interpretation of US history..

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PsN2Wind]

29. Lighten up Elwood

He came all the way from Finland to correct our ways AND teach us American history.

[Elwood P Dowd]

30. Durn furreners

as Bushit would say.

[PsN2Wind]

31. Hey Elwood if you'd like a little comic relief

Google Finland's immigration policy and punch up Finland's secret. Seems their representative here is much more in favor of our taking in immigrants than his own country is.
And actually he had me sold for a minute and I was thinking we could get off on the cheap by sending Finland 10% of out illegals, then they could reap the benefits he describes.

[Elwood P Dowd]

36. I say let the Russians go back and claim the damn place again

:evilgrin:

[jmatthan]

32. Hope you enjoy

The great standard of living in the meantime as your country goes furher down the toilet!

And do not blame it on the Republicans.

Better you look inwards!

[Cobalt Violet]

34. I have no health care, And a serious illness.

Hows that for a standard of living. It seems more like a standard of dying to me.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[proud patriot]

26. This is a great article

:thumbsup:

[moc]

27. Most excellent! Thank you. nm

[KoKo]

35. Thanks for the post on this....n/t

[Zorra]

40. Thanks. Thom Hartmann is right on as usual. n/t

[BrklynLiberal]

44. Thom Hartmann combines intelligence and eloquence so well.

[Gloria]

47. He was talking about this today...subbing for Randi

Democrats should take his words and use them....he has the issue distilled perfectly so even "maroons" could understand what is going on. Brilliant.

[Cobalt Violet]

56. I listened to that show twice today.

Once once streaming from AAR and another time streaming from our local affiliate. It was great.

[smoochpooch]

51. I agree that economics is the true crux of the issue...

Unfortunately, too many Americans only see the issue out of fear of a Mexican "takeover" of America. No matter what, some will always advocate keeping out persons they fear are weakening their dominance of American culture. They are afraid of having a bilingual country that is gradually losing a European majority. It is time for all Americans to recognize that Hispanics will have an increasing influence across the U.S. and emphasize the positive contributions they make to our culture.

[Nutmegger]

53. Welcome to DU!!!

:toast::toast::toast:
:toast::toast::toast:
:toast::toast::toast:

[Cobalt Violet]

57. That doesn't mean we should bend over for illegal immigration.

Not all illegal immigrants are Mexicans or Hispanic. Not all Hispanics are immigrants legal or illegal.

I don't feel the need to prove I have no animosity toward Hispanics by selling the American workers out.

[Elwood P Dowd]

52. Kick for Thom to the morning crew

<nm>

[Mythsaje]

54. It's great to see something about my favorite host

on the Greatest Page.

Thom rocks. He gets it.

[Pooka Fey]

55. K&R

[peanutbrittle]

60. I wish the cable news programs would interview Hartmann...

Maybe e-mailing this article to a few of the pundits would help get him some future exposure.

[Cobalt Violet]

61. I wish so too.

I don't like how it is assumed that those on the left are all for illegal immigration. We have a clear history of stand up for workers rights. Republicans have a clear history of worker explotation.


If the Democrats really wanted to reach out to blue collar workers, like they claim every time they lose an election, then they need to get back to the policies that protected labor.

[nonconformist]

62. K & R. Fantastic article. nt

[VLC98]

63. He nailed it! Thanks for posting this. nt.

[Karmadillo]

64. Bad Thom! Exposing the Hillary/Rush coalition.

Imagine a progressive political party devoted to workers' rights at home and the undermining of oligarchies abroad.

"Democratic Party strategist Ann Lewis just sent out a mass email on behalf of former Wal-Mart Board of Directors member and now US Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton. In it, Lewis noted that Clinton suggests we should have: "An earned path to citizenship for those already here working hard, paying taxes, respecting the law, and willing to meet a high bar for becoming a citizen." Sounds nice. The same day, on his radio program, Rush Limbaugh told a woman whose husband is an illegal immigrant that she had nothing to worry about with regard to deportation of him or their children because all he'd have to do - under the new law under consideration - is pay a small fine and learn English."

[Cobalt Violet]

65. That would be great to have such a party.

Not an easy thing to do with so many on both sides brainwashed into accepting that we have no control over this.

[mzmolly]

67. One more recommendation. I always enjoy Hartmann, and I'm pleasantly

surprised he didn't pull out the "racist" card.

This issue has the potential to destroy the middle class and further weaken the Democratic party.

One more recommendation.

[Cobalt Violet]

70. He really gets it about the importance of the middle class to democracy.

I'm very glad he has spoken out.

[mzmolly]

72. Me too. I was feeling a bit lost.

I rarely disagree with Ted Kennedy but on this issue, I do.

[CrispyQ]

74. Damn! I love that man!!

snip...

Every nation has an obligation to limit immigration to a number that will not dilute its workforce, but will maintain a stable middle class - if it wants to have a stable democracy. This has nothing to do with race, national origin, or language (visit Switzerland with it's ethnic- and language-dived areas!), and everything to do with economics.

Without a middle class, any democracy is doomed. And without labor having - through control of labor availability - power in relative balance to capital/management, no middle class can emerge. America's early labor leaders did not die to increase the labor pool for the Robber Barons or the Walton family - they died fighting to give control of it to the workers of their era and in the hopes that we would continue to hold it - and infect other nations with the same idea of democracy and a stable middle class.


===
Emphasis added.

[Cobalt Violet]

75. Unfortunately, I think this is another lesson we will need to relearn...

The hard way.

[Rainscents]

80. Yep... Thom is the man!

He knows the history!

[me b zola]

78. K & R

:kick:

[DaveT]

81. The GOP is eating its own on immigration

because the guys who pay for the party all want the cheap labor.

This reality will trump everything and there is no politically feasible legal strategy for controlling immigration. It is just like illegal drugs -- the demand is too great for any effort to limit supply to work.

The ONLY solution to immigration across the Rio Bravo is to increase wages in Mexico and Central America.

[iconoclastNYC]

82. Thom Hartman is my hero.

I wish I had his command of history and could explain things as clearly as he can.

[Elwood P Dowd]

84. I've been saying much of what Thom says in this article

as have several others on this board. Trouble is, we have about one-tenth the talent of Thom Hartman.

[LaPera]

83. Penalize employers big time who hire ILLEGAL aliens any color-Case Closed!

Cesar Chavez knew very well how republican corporates could break unions with illegals and Chavez fought hard against illegals it weaken the UFW union with scabs...the corporations however love all scabs...and unless they are penalized the problem will get worst, more unions will be broken, and wages will continue to go down.

Penalize the employers...but BushCo never want to hurt corporations, fuck over the workers.

[nonconformist]

85. Kick

:kick:

[Gold Metal Flake]

86. What Hartmann's solution needs is a catchy name.

Something that can identify this as a political and economic concept and movement. What Thom writes is something anyone in the middle class can get behind, and that includes thinking conservatives. A RW cube neighbor was agreeing with me when I used the concepts from this article. It's also a great way to take race and origin out of the debate. It clearly shows the struggle between the greedy corporatists and We, The People. It opens up the door for more discussions of corporate greed and dominance later. This article is a gateway drug to progressivism for self-described moderates and conservatives who are truly liberals who have been brainwashed.

But, if this sort of thinking is to spread it has to be encapsulated with a marketing phrase and name. A label IS needed. Suggestions?

[Cobalt Violet]

87. I feel the same way.

A lot of them are more liberal that they are lead to believe. Most people know that there is something wrong with and infinite supply of cheap labor.

I would like to see more Democrats in power talk with this outlook.

[Gold Metal Flake]

88. We need a brand name for this.

Any ideas?