Anybody know anything about the Churches of Christ, the group that

[cantstandbush]

Matthew Winkler, recently shot and killed by his wife, pastored. I checked them out on the Internet but every link gives really scant information about the denomination except to say that they are non-denominational. It puzzles me that a group of 14,000 churches world-wide would claim that each church is autonomous and that the group is non-denominational. How do you organize 14,000 churches world-wide and say that they are all autonomous? What does this mean?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

1. There are a number of denominations that go by that name, but

the Church of Christ (not to be confused with the United Church of Christ, the UCCs, who are putting out those ads about inclusiveness) also goes by the name of Campbellite.

They are your basic evangelical, fundamentalist-leaning church, and one of their peculiarities is that they don't allow musical instruments in church, so everyone sings the hymns in parts. (I once dated someone who had been brought up Church of Christ, and we attended the nearest congregation when his parents were in town.)

Their motto is "We speak where the Bible speaks, and we are silent where the Bible is silent," except that it doesn't really work that way, because the Bible mentions praising the lord with harp and cymbal.

[Lithos]

2. Your definition of non-denominational is off

Just means that they do not consider themselves aligned with a major religion such as the Baptists, Methodists, etc. Doesn't mean that they do not are not organized in some capacity. The autonomous part means that each Church is the highest unit of religious organization and the congregation thru it's deacons and elders help provide the necessary focus and leadership. Not to say there aren't of course larger organizational units which help support the individual churches, but there are no Bishops, etc.

My father-in-law was a CoC minister, so I think I know a bit about it. They tend to a literalist form of the bible (selected quotes, of course they tend to omit sections that are inconvenient), generally only use the New Testament, are millenial dispensationalists (end-timers), and essentially hold a black/white view of the Bible and the world.

[kestrel91316]

4. Yeah, but I bet they like the part of Leviticus that condemns

sodomy, right????

Funny how these same types never go on the rampage about eating shellfish, or failure to sacrifice bullocks........

[Lithos]

7. Not so much

The OT is not given as much credence as the NT.

As such, they tend to quote Romans from 1:26 to 1:32.

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

There is a lot of issue with the exact nature being discussed as Romans serves as one of the main texts of what is generally considered the heart of Peter's version of Christianity.

On Edit:

I wish to emphasize that I personally disagree strongly with this portion of Romans as well as the theology behind the CoC. My wife has rejected it as well which leads to some interesting conversations with my Father in Law.

[kestrel91316]

25. Your citation makes it look like they condemned gossip, slander, and

arrogance in the same way they condemned relations between men. Undesirable in a person. Funny how they don't go after Bush for his arrogance like they go after gays.............

[Extend a Hand]

3. my third cousin

was a member of a Church of Christ in Alabama. They were even more strict (fundamentalist) than the Southern Baptists-- No makeup, long hair, no musical instruments. I really wondered about the very inclusive ads welcoming gays until someone pointed out to me that the "United Church of Christ" does those commercials and it is a completely different organization.

[NewInNewJ.]

5. They believe that only the members of the Church Of Christ

will go to heaven. You must be baptized, and you must not have any musical insturment in the church. The man is the head of the household. Very exclusive of anyone who is not a member of their Church.

[Neil Lisst]

6. I can help you out.

There is no central structure among the Church of Christ churches. Each church is completely autonomous, but they share the same general beliefs.

1. No musical instuments of any kind for worship. Not a piano, not an organ, and no other instruments.

2. Only Church of Christ members are going to heaven, excluding all others, even all other Christians.

3. The church member can lose their eternal salvation for any unrepented sin, right up to the moment of death.

4. Very conservative on moral issues, such as homosexuality, fornication, etc.

5. No dancing.

Think of Baptist without all the openmindedness, pianos, and ice cream socials.

[Sydnie]

11. I was raised in the Church of Christ and we had a piano

I know that there is a distinction between the Church of Christ and the Church of Christ SCientist (often referred to as Christian Science, although I saw no evidence of that when I was growing up from friends that attended that church).

Number 2 - they absolutely DO believe that.

Number 3 - I saw no evidence of that teaching in my church, although it could be that I wasn't "old enough" to have heard that from them when I stopped attending.

Number 4 - Could very well be true. My father had considered being a pastor for this church, had even attended a divinity school as a younger man, but opted not to go that direction because women could not be "leaders" in the church. He brought this religion to my mother, not the other way around, but I can tell you, he often did not wear the pants in the family. LOL

Number 5 - also saw no evidence of that. We didn't have church sponsored dances as some other churches did, but I was never told that I shouldn't dance by anyone in the church or my family.

We did have ice cream socials though. And family picnics with members of the church.

Your mileage may vary though.

edited to add - I would venture a guess that "my sect" of this church is the group that are actively advertising that they will welcome gays into their fold. They must be the ones with the good music!

I didn't see anything that strict about the teachings ... but we stopped attending as a family when I was a young child (8 or so). My father certainly was not a conservative. Considering the area that we lived in, he was quite open minded and progressive (certainly more so than my mother was in areas such as race relations for example). I attended again for a short time as a teenager on my own, but stopped going again when I took a friend to a Wednesday service and sat in the back of the sanctuary telling each other off color jokes. The irony of the situation was clear to me at that point. It wasn't for me anymore. :rofl:

[rucky]

14. You are so going to hell. n/t

[Neil Lisst]

17. You were raised a Christian Scientist.

The preacher who was killed was a Church of Christ minister, the church I have described. He attended a university which is a Church of Christ school, and has been for most of this century, Freed-Hardeman, a fact given in the news accounts, which is clearly dispositive of the issue of which church he belonged to.

There is a huge difference between the Church of Christ and Christian Scientists. You were raised in Church of Christ, Scientists. They're not remotely similar, except they're both extremely boring services. I hope you'll take the time to look them and learn the differences.

The Church of Christ is as I described. You are not describing any Church of Christ in the nation. You are describing the Christian Scientists, who were created about 150 years ago by a crazy woman named Mary Baker Eddy. Their services consist primarily of having two members reading up front - one from the Bible, the other from Mary Baker Eddy's explanation of said scriptures in her book HEALTH & SCIENCE.

Among all the absurdities in religion, Mary Baker Eddy's HEALTH & SCIENCE has be the most cockamamie of them all. She doesn't understand science at all, but she attempted to explain through her convoluted understanding how purity of belief would result in purity of body.

The preacher who was killed was a Church of Christ preacher. He'd roll over in his grave if he thought anyone confused him and his church with Christian Scientists. There isn't anything remotely similar between the two churches, except they both are built around protestant Christianity.

Christian Scientists believe that one should not consult a doctor for most of life's serious problems. The devout in the faith usually die from some curable disease, because they refuse to treat it medically.

[Alamom]

20. Also,

the ones I know can not remarry after a divorce.
Ministers will not perform a marriage for a couple if one or both has been married before.
Some will not remarry even after the death of a spouse due to their religious beliefs.
They will be your friend, but will tell you in your face you are going to hell if you belong to another church or faith...only Church of Christ go to heaven.

A lot of kids I went to school with and a lot of adults I know, turned completely against any type of faith once they got out.

My husband attended a while with his first wife when he was young. He said after about 3 meetings, he realized it was a cult and this was in the 60's. They didn't stay married long.

My uncle by marriage was raised in this belief and he was really weird. Was married to my aunt, a happy, sweet, easygoing Baptist person. Wonderful woman who treated everyone well and refused to go to the COC with him. She could not go to a baptist or anywhere else due to his anger about it, so she just didn't go anywhere. They were married about 50 years. I don't know how she did it...such a funny, sweet, open minded woman. She was my favorite aunt.

She died a particulary awful death with cancer. My sister tried to make a comforting statement at the funeral "At least "now" she was at peace."

He said he highly doubted that, as she was burning in Hell.

He also said my little brother was in hell. He died at 10 without being baptized.


Weird folks.....

[Neil Lisst]

21. Yeah, that's more like it! That's the one!

They are very much set in tone by the locals who attend each church, of course.

There are some very good people who belong to the Church of Christ, but from a heaven-hell standpoint, they are extremely judgmental and extremely rigid. Many of them really believe anyone who isn't baptized into the Church of Christ AND does all the other things they require (attend regularly, give money, not dance, etc.) will burn in hell for eternity.

[Punkingal]

24. I was bought up in that church...

And you are right about everything you say. I will add this....they are RIGID on the subject of divorce, to the point that the only reason you can divorce is adultery, and you are not supposed to remarry. The other thing that drove me bonkers is that women have no authority of any kind. Ever. And they absolutely have contempt for other religions, such as the Catholic faith.

They are not organized. There is no "Church of Christ Convention" to send out memos telling people who to vote for. And they don't generally pay any attention to people like Falwell or Robertson...after all, they are going to hell because they are not Church of Christ!

I have many relatives in the church, and believe me, a lot of them are sure I am hellbound, because I got a divorce. I have heard remarks to that effect, spoken very softly. And yet they love me. It is shocking to see the cult rigidness and harshness once you escape it. It seems reasonable when you are still there.

A few infamous members of the Church of Christ:

Kenneth Starr
Rusty and Andrea Yates (I guess it's okay to get a divorce if your wife kills your kids.)

[RB TexLa]

8. I have some family that go to them and an old family friend that

is an elder at one, his son is a minster. I've been to his church, most seemed nice people. I'm sure you can walk in a Church of Christ and meet not so nice people or not so nice minsters. Every church has good and not so good leaders, and members.

Seems like many Protestant churches, except for the no musical instruments and they receive communion each service although they believe it to be symbolic and to have no real presence, they also grape juice instead of wine.

[cantstandbush]

9. How far do they carry the "man as head of house" thing? I have my

worries about my niece who is a member along with her family. Her children are very strange behaving...almost like they are afraid of most people. Everything seems to be very secretive within their family. This is what made me think about the Winkler family. Most fundamentalists seem to hang on the "man as head of house" without paying much attention to "husbands honor and love your wives" and "love your wife as Christ loved you" (in other words be willing to lay down you life for her). The only thing I have ever seen among most fundamentalists is the defference to the male head of the house and defference of female siblings to male siblings. Her family give me the willies.

[Neil Lisst]

22. They are NOT as far right as many fundies on the husband-wife issue

The fundies like Pentecostal and Assembly of God are BIG on that, however. There's a quote they all use, but the Church of Christ does not have that "woman, submit to your husband" theme.

[northofdenali]

10. If I have to put up with "literal" Bible,

evangelical types, these are the ones I'll put up with (does that make any sense at all...).

Known quite a few folks who are CofC and most are pretty decent, if indoctrinated.

[JohnyCanuck]

12. I knew someone from the Church of Christ in Canada.

I had a roommate about 25 years ago who was a Church of Christ member and I learned quite a lot from him about the peculiarities of their beliefs and the different schisms that had arisen among different congregations. The motto he liked to use was, "We speak where the Bible speaks, and are silent where the Bible is silent."

Their founder were Scottish Presbyterian ministers, a father and son team, Thomas and Alexander Campbell who came to the US sometime in the early 1800s and becoming upset at the disunity among all the denominations decided to start a movement back to a more "pure" form of New Testament Christianity. To do that they would throw away all creed books and catechisms etc. and use only the Bible as their guide. I found this link on Google with details of Alexander Campbells life: http://www.therestorationmovement.com/cmbla.htm

Unfortunately while it sounded good in theory, and they started out as one united group, they found like others before them that disagreements arose as to exactly how to interpret the Bible.

There are several different faction within the Church of Christ from what I understand.

Generally they believe that the only practices which are authorized for worship are practices for which they can find authorization for from the New Testament. Authorization can come from a direct command by Jesus or the Apostles or by an approved example set by the practices of the New Testament Christians under the guidance of the divinely inspired apostles.

However, there have been disputes within the Church as to what constitutes an example and how strictly this should be interpreted and this has led to Churches disfellowshipping each other over various aspects of doctrine and worship practices.

For example, since there were no examples of Christians playing music in Church services from the New Testament and there are no commands from Jesus or the Apostles telling Christians to play instruments in worship to God, they should only use a capella (non-instrumental) music in worship services. Playing an instrument for your own amusement at home was not an issue or problem.

Some time ago (it could have been as far back as the early 1900s, not sure when exactly) there was a faction within the Church that decided that playing musical instruments as accompaniment to singing would not piss off Jesus and they went ahead and introduced instrumental music to their services. In the US that group mostly became known as the "Christian Church" to distinguish themselves from the non-instrumental music folks which held on to the name Church of Christ, while in Canada (and in some parts of the US) they maintained the designation "Church of Christ." So in Canada there was the instrumental music Church of Christ and a non-instrumental music Church of Christ. The non-instrumental music folks would not fellowship the instrumental music Church of Christ as they felt the instrumental music folks were acting outside of Biblical authority.

The non-instrumental music CoC or "Christian Church" folks in the US generally had a more "liberal" attitude and also introduced things like Christmas services etc. which the stricter non-instrumental types could not accept either (no examples of Christmas being celebrated in the New Testament Church).

There was another schism that developed around the 1960s in the non-instrumental Church of Christ. There arose a dispute as to whether Church funds could be used for building things like Church gymnasiums for the young folks or dining halls etc for social meetings among Church members. One group said this was not permitted (again,no examples of New Testament Churches having basketball courts are there?) and the other group, although still sticking firmly to the a capella music angle, said that they really didn't think Jesus would mind if they built a dining hall and a Church kitchen next to the auditorium. So again the congregations of the more conservative mindset split off from and refused to fellowship the "liberals" who had Church kitchens, fellowship halls and gymnasiums.

In the city I was in there were 3 different Churches of Christ congregations and neither one talked to the other. There was an instrumental music Church of Christ, a "liberal" Church of Christ and an "anti" Church of Christ. The anti-Church of Christ were the most conservative ones and were given that name "anti" by the liberal Churches of Christ because supposedly they were against (or "anti") everything.

Now within the anti-Churches of Christ there were other somewhat more minor schisms as well. There was the "one cupper" movement and the "no-located preacher" movement which generally went together. The one cuppers believed that since in the Biblical example of the Lord's Supper there was only one cup used for the wine, it would be unscriptural not to use just one cup in the communion service today, i.e. you couldn't use those trays which have the tiny individual cups for each person partaking.

Also following Biblical precedent, the Churches of Christ had preachers or evangelists to preach the sermons and to be responsible for preaching the word to the surrounding neighborhood or town. Now in the Bible the pattern was for Paul, Peter and the Apostles not to live in a fixed location for very long, but to be wondering around the Mediterranean staying awhile in various cities and towns to preach the word and then move on. So some of the anti-CoC churches decided that it would be unscriptural to pay a preacher to set up shop and work with one Church for any extended period of time, rather they should use itinerant preachers that went from town to town to do evangelizing and preaching to the lost and the elders and deacons etc should pitch in more with preaching and teaching the Sunday message if there wasn't an official preacher on hand to do that.

From what I remember the one cuppers and no-located preacher folks would still fellowship the other anti-CoCs even if they didn't go along with their particular obsession to be true to the word of God, and the one cuppers were definitely the smallest of the factions. They had some congregations out in very small towns in the British Columbia interior, if I remember correctly.

As others have mentioned, they believed water baptism was necessary for salvation (just sprinkling water on the forehead wouldn't do, it had to be a complete immersion) and they did not believe in modern day miracles like Benny Hinn, Oral Roberts etc. They believed that miracles were allowed by
God to confirm that Jesus and the Apostles after him were divinely inspired in their work, but once the Apostles had died and left the written scriptures, there was no longer a need for miracles and therefore they ended with the deaths of the Apostles.

It was really quite fascinating to see how, with the best of intentions, people would still come to loggerheads over matters of interpreting scripture, and each faction would be sure their own interpretation was correct while the other factions were in danger of hell fire for falling away from the truth and allowing the devil to lead them astray to act outside of Biblical authority.

[bigluckyfeet]

13. The Church of Christ Founder

Is the Lord Jesus Christ.
The Church is organized by following the example in the Bible.

"How do you organize 14,000 churches world-wide and say that they are all autonomous? What does this mean?

[Kailassa]

15. Ah yes, you read that part too?

The part of the bible where Jesus says,

"And I say unto you, some of the followers of Mr. Cambell
will partake of the joys of heaven
for all eternity,
but all other Christians will forever burn in hell
for choosing or being born into the wrong sect.
Muahahaha!!!"

[Neil Lisst]

23. Ha! So true. And most Church of Christ members don't know.

A typical Church of Christ member knows almost no religious history, except for their immediate family history. They like to say it was founded by Jesus, but Jesus was gone 1800 years before the Church of Christ sprung up.

[Neil Lisst]

18. The Church of Christ founder was not Jesus.

It's about 200 years old.

It's one of the hundreds of protestant versions of Christianity that sprang up in the past 400 years.

Jesus didn't start any churches. He lived and died a Jew.

It was Paul and Peter who started the churches, after Jesus was dead.

But Christianity became the Catholic Church in about 325 of the common era, and it remained that way for over 1000 years.

But you are correct about one thing: members of the Church of Christ believe that Jesus founded the church, and most have no idea of the real history of this particular branch of protestantism.

[jbnow]

16. Thank you for that

information.

But Good Lord (well that's apt) it is sad and amazing how religion becomes a this way of dividing, excluding and judging. The opposite of what God is. It erects barriers and widen schisms and chasms rather than building bridges.

So many examples through history and to this day. I have so much to say about how perverse that is that I won't say anything more. Even Jesus just shakes his head and says "Oy vay".

[Neil Lisst]

19. You did a nice job of describing the Church of Christ and its history.

Very good job.

There are "liberal" Churches of Christ, as you mention, but they tend to be a minority found in larger communities. The predominant theme in Churches of Christ is rigid adherence to strict interpretations of the Bible.

I know that the preacher who was killed was a conservative Church of Christ minister because of his college. He went to Freed-Hardeman, which has long been a bastion of conservative Church of Christ doctrine.