Hey Repukes! The Market Forces have spoken regarding illegal immigration

[maxrandb]

For the past 30 years, or more, we've been carpet-bombed with the Repuke argument that "the Market Forces must have free reign to set the standards". On every "blanking issue" from taxes, to spending, to social programs, to labor laws, to trade, to tort reform, to health care, to national security, to wage increases, to corporate regulation, "ad naseum"...the answer from the Republicans has been; "leave the Market alone and it will solve all the problems".

They've said

- We don't need Unions, because the Market Forces will set wages
- We don't need workplace safety laws, because the Market Forces will take care of it
- We don't need corporate regulation, because the Market Forces will take care of it
- We don't need health care, because the Market Forces will take care of it
- We don't need an increase in the minimum wage, because the Market Forces will take care of it
- We don't need environmental protection, because the Market Forces will take care of it
- We don't need increased fuel standards, because the Market Forces will take care of it
- We don't need Social Security and Medicare, because the Market Forces will take care of it
- We don't need anti-discrimination laws, because the Market Forces will take care of it.

etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.....ad infinitum

Well, Republicans, the Market Forces have spoken. They've said, "give us cheap labor that we can exploit"

The Market Forces have said; "I won't pay an American $10 an hour to pick fruit, when I can pay an illegal $2.50 an hour".

They've said; "give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses, so that I can increase my bottom line, and give my CEO an even bigger bonus".

Yes, Republicans, you've lied to and deceived the American people about the "benevolent corporation or employer" and have made the argument, that if you just get out of the way of the American corporate engine, we'll have Nirvana.

Illegal immigration; the exploitation of cheap labor, or what some would argue is "slave labor"; the sieve that is our border; the wink and nod at the thousands of low paid non-citizens locked inside a couple thousand Walmarts doing all night cleaning; all of this is YOUR FAULT!

This is an albatross that you must wear around your neck. It's funny to watch you try to squirm your way out this mess. Your only answer is to appeal to peoples fears, bigotry, and racism.

Republicans arguing against cheap labor, is like watching Walmart executives argue for their employees to Unionize.

The tsunami is coming, and your going to be swept from power. And in what is becoming a ridiculously obvious repetition of history, the Democratic Party is going to have to clean up the "effing" mess you've made of our country. You've used our country's flag to wipe your asses...this November, we're taking you, and our flag to the cleaners.

:rant-off:

[Coexist]

1. well said.

[fasttense]

2. Exactly right

"give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses, so that I can increase my bottom line, and give my CEO an even bigger bonus." I love that line.

[Ian David]

3. All those illegal immigrants the Republicans have been conspiring with...

are suddenly a problem for them?

[mac56]

4. K & R

"Cheap Labor Conservatives". Truer and truer all the time.

[Minnesota Libra]

5. Here we go again!! Get a clue - very few people in the US want...........

.....illegal aliens from anywhere. Again, notice I said from anywhere, I'm saying the same thing FOR BOTH BORDERS and all races and all colors of illegal aliens. Most Americans have no problem with immigration - they do have a problem with all illegal aliens though.

Lou Dobbs has put to voice the feeling of many Americans. his is the one and only issue I totally disagree with liberals/progressives on.

[Cobalt Violet]

6. Have you read what Thom Hartmann said about illegal immigration.

It's a true progressive view point. One that goes back to the history of progressives. Not the ilk of the many wanna be progressive we see today.


http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0329-21.htm


Please don't let some of the loud mouths on this board difine what the progressive point of view is or should be. Many believe as you believe.

[Minnesota Libra]

8. Guess I've been attacked so much I now expect it, will read some more.....

.....

on edit: Just read the article you gave the link for - thank you!!:hi:

Finally, someone who gets it!!!!!:bounce:

OMG, maybe I'm not the crazy "racist" idiot some have recently tried to claim I am. Personally, I think Lou Dobbs get it too!! He doesn't agree with the liberal or he neocon approach to illegal aliens.O8)

[Cobalt Violet]

9. I agree, the name calling is ridiculous, ignorant and arrogant.

And very classist.

[TahitiNut]

51. Agreed. The simple-minded will always be the first to be stampeded ...

... off the edge of a cliff. Sadly, ideology is no innoculation by itself. Hartmann is correct. Cesar Chavez was correct.

I've stated my position: http://journals.democraticunderground.com/TahitiNut/110

I stand by it.


If the racism card is being played, it is being played mostly by the greed-infested corporatists to perpetuate a split in the body politic. "Divide and conquer" is one of the most useful weapons of the oligarchs in their continuing class war on the "lower 99%."

Where's Madame DeFarge when we need her?

[Coexist]

15. That was FANTASTIC. It totally outlined my view

much better than I ever could.

I guess I can still be considered Progressive then, since I feel that Legal Immigration is different than Illegal Immigration.

[Minnesota Libra]

17. FLDem5, I agree, I was beginning to wonder about how................

.....progressive I was too.:eyes: I'm certainly liberal on most everything else but the illegal alien issue. On this one issue though I've been flamed from here to .... and back over and over again.:grr: I'm very relieved now.:bounce:

[Coexist]

19. So we don't have to disconnect ourselves from the

morning "Liberal Agenda Fax" from the Streisand Compound?!

:smoke:

[Minnesota Libra]

20. GOOD ONE!!! nt

[Coexist]

23. stole it from former Mark and Marc AAR show

they received a daily fax. It was always a really funny bit!

[Cobalt Violet]

35. We can't let them tell us we are not progressives.

So many who call themselves progressive and have hurled insults at us seem to have for got their progressive history.

[Zookeeper]

49. Great! Thanks for that link. n/t

[Cobalt Violet]

52. Here is a discussion thread about it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x789515


We are not alone.

[rman]

10. Sure - question is, how to solve the problem?

Should it be solved by building a wall along the border, criminalizing healthcare for illegals and turning them into cheap labor guest workers,

...or could it be that there are solutions other then those proposed by the corporate controlled Parties (who'd like us to believe that there are only two sides to every story) ?

[Minnesota Libra]

16. My view on how to solve the illegal alien issue is completely different...

.....than the liberals or neocons. I'm pretty much with Lou Dobbs on this one but even he has a hole or two that needs a solution. Please, notice first of all, I make absolutely no distinctions between the southern border and the northern border. I don't make a distinction on race, color, or anything else. To me illegal aliens are illegal aliens regardless of who or what color they are.

Now, for solutions, first we start by closing down the borders. There will be a "no-man's land" of sorts that no one is allowed in. All houses or building in the area will be destroyed and tunnels systematically destroyed. We won't need walls - a land mine or two might help. :sarcasm: Next we train people as border guards - yes with guns and all. People who want to cross our borders illegally will then risk the chance of being killed on the spot in the "no man's land".

Next anyone entering this country legally must prove they are "upstanding citizens", I don't go along with the idea of us proving anything. They want entry into this country so let them do the proving. Then when immigrants do get into this country they risk immediate arrest and deportation if there are any convictions of any kind or if they do not follow every rule. We must know where they are at all times or they are arrested and deported and they get to walk the "no man's land", not us. It would take a minimum of 10 years for anyone to become a full citizens and must be fluent in English and above all else give up all allegiance to their country of origin.

Needless to say, I'd be extremely strict on immigration and illegal aliens would NEVER be tolerated.

I hope you don't flame me but comment however you please.

[rman]

22. How about addressing the root cause of illegal/excessive immigration:

The difference in wages between the US and Mexico.
Differences in wages between the US and Canada are hardly an issue - if anything i'd expect illegal migration of Americans to Canada rather then the other way around.

It's the low wages in Mexico that make it worthwhile for Mexicans to take the risks that come with illegal entry in the US.

Those low wages are in part a result of regulations imposed by means of International "Free Trade" Agreements.
Corporations pretty much own the government(s), corporations come up with these trade agreements, and corporations just love cheap labor.

[Minnesota Libra]

24. The difference in wages between countries is......................

.....NOT the issue - we CAN NOT be expected to set a standard of living for any other country. PLEASE the issue is illegal aliens flooding into our country, not the standards of living in that country. If we get into setting the standards of living in some other country - any other country - we might as well get it over with and go completely communist. There are countries who can tell you first hand how that one works for them.

[rman]

25. But we do set the standard of living in other countries -

it's what those Free Trade Agreements do. And we call it capitalism, not communism.

Question is why do we affect the standard of living to the disadvantage of the local population rather then to their benefit.

The large corporations that push for those agreements (as part of creating a global market), see things such as unions and environmental protections as "trade barriers" that have to be removed in order to be able to "help" the economy of those countries. In reality it works out to the benefit of those large corporations (the owners and investors) and to the disadvantage of "the people".

[Minnesota Libra]

26. Then CLOSE our borders and concentrate on our standards................

.....of living. I agree with the Lou Dobbs approach to illegal aliens.

It isn't our responsibility to take care of the world AT THE DETRIMENT OF OUR OWN CITIZENS. The more you flood the work force the more wages and living conditions will fall.

Here read this.............
http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0329-21.htm

[rman]

31. You'd have to convince the majority of representatives in both Parties,

that support NAFTA and other Free Trade Agreements, before you could implement such radical isolationism.

Improving the standard of living in other countries does not inevitably have a detrimental effect on our own standard of living. No reason why we could not improve both.

Wages and living conditions do not fall because of immigration, but rather because of corporate lobbying. Big corporations just love cheap labor because it's the only way left for them to keep growing their profit margins.

The battle is not between US workers and workers elsewhere, it's between big corporations and workers everywhere.
Though of course those corporations would have us believe otherwise, and they have the means to have us believe otherwise because they own big media. That's why when W says "immigrants do the jobs Americans don't want to do", none of the MSM asks if that doesn't depend on how much the jobs pay.

[Minnesota Libra]

37. Flood the work market=low wages, limit the force=decent wages nt

[rman]

41. sure, just keep ignoring corporate influence. nt

[Minnesota Libra]

45. I'm saying we should close down borders first, then go after.......

.....corporations, mom-and-pop businesses, apartment building owners, anyone that hires or houses illegal aliens. Start the fines at ONE FULL YEAR OF GROSS INCOME per illegal alien and then double it per day. We wouldn't have to do one thing about border security - that would cure the problem almost over night. No one would even look at an illegal alien for fear they'd loose everything they ever worked for.

Having lived this illegal alien issue up close and personal (I didn't always live here) I can tell you from experience even Mexican/Americans or any ???/Americans don't like illegal aliens here. You should hear some of the truly filthy names Mexican/Americans call illegal alien Mexicans. I don't even use that kind of language.

[rman]

46. you wouldn't have to close the borders

if you'd start with counteracting corporate influence, both domestically and abroad.

[Minnesota Libra]

47. It's NOT JUST corporations - the issue of illegal aliens involves......

.....anyone and EVERYONE hiring, housing, or supplying illegal aliens with anything.:spank: Slap huge fines on ANYONE AND EVERYONE hiring or supplying illegal aliens and problem is solved.:banghead:

[rman]

48. Again ignoring the root cause

But i'm done going in circles with you.

Just keep banging your head and keep calling immigrants "aliens".

[maxrandb]

28. It's not only low wages in Mexico

It's also employers in America that are willing to look the other way when it comes to law and national security because they can take advantage of that labor pool.

Like I said in a earlier post; "I'm not going to dangle a steak in front of the dogs nose, and then beat him when he takes a bite".

If there were no jobs available, illegals would not come here, unless we believe like the Repukes, that all humans are basically evil and only come here to suck off the teet of our social programs.

[rman]

34. agreed

Elsewhere i have remarked that "big corporations just love cheap labor"; they prefer illegal immigrants because those accept lower wages then US workers.

[Minnesota Libra]

42. maxandb, I agree with you that is why I think anyone..................

.....hiring or housing any illegal alien from anywhere in the wold should be fined. Oh, I don't mean some token fine or just focus on corporations either. I mean go after corporations, mom-and-pop businesses, house owners, apartment building owners, go after everyone equally. Start the fines out at one year's worth of "GROSS INCOME" for each illegal alien and double it per day. Every business in America would very quickly find out how much more profitable it is to hire only American workers.

[maxrandb]

27. A Fatal Flaw in Your Plan

Please show me the uprising of Canadian citizens marching in our streets. Please show me the team of Canadians coming across the "northern" border so they can pick fruit at dirt poor wages for Monsanto.

Your's is an urealistic proposal. As long as Walmart is willing to hire 100 Argentinians at $4.00 an hour to lock up in their stores as the cleaning crew, no amount of walls, or guns, or "land-mines" is going to stop people from coming here, as long as their is a demand for cheap labor, and they can pursue the American dream. Let's make it easier for them to come here legally. Let's make it easier for them to gain citizenship.

You can't be proposing that we round up all 12,000,000 and send them back. That's unrealistic. You might as well rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic.

I'd like to live to 195, but it ain't going to happen.

What about all of the Irish, German, Italian and other European immigrants that fly into this country on work, or school Visa's and then simply fail to go back. Your wall/fence/no mans land does nothing to prevent that.

You've got to ask yourself a very simple question. Who benefits from cheap immigrant labor?

It sure as hell ain't the average American worker.

I want our law obeyed and our borders protected as well, but I'm not going to dangle a steak in front of the dogs nose, and then beat him when he takes a bite.

[Minnesota Libra]

33. The bottom line here is that with a "FLOODED" work force..................

.....all wages go down, with a limited work force living standards go up for all.

Today's immigration battle
http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0329-21.htm

[maxrandb]

40. I agree with you

but who is hiring this "Flooded Workforce"?

Does your plan carry any penalties for employers that hire illegals? Maybe we should have them walk through the "mine-field".

[old_techie]

18. Bush's guestworker program

All the media talk about is a guestworker program to deal with illegal Mexicans already here. But don't believe that Bush's proposal is about this for a minute. What it really is is a massive all-inclusive guestworker on demand from ANYWHERE in the world for ANY so-called need whatsoever. The media are deliberatly deceptive. The senate immigration bill being debated right now is hiding a massive H-1B visa increase. This is for foreign hi tech workers and has NOTHING to do with illegal Mexicans or border security. Wonder if our corporate controlled media will have the guts to put this on the front page?

[tlsmith1963]

7. Also...

Free trade has added to the problem. Latinos have to leave their families to come here. I doubt they would leave if they had a well-paying job back home.

Tammy

[old_techie]

21. Right, the jobs that we sent to Mexico now have to go to China.

Free trade is kinda like strip mining or slash and burn agriculture.

[Brewman_Jax]

11. Great answer

I got a stupid RW e-mail forward with some of the bullshit talking points. This is great for response material.

[LiberalEsto]

12. So THAT's why they oppose flag-burning

It's because they are too busy wiping their asses on our flag.

Great post.

[Betsy Ross]

13. K&R

:kick:

[terip64]

14. K&R!!! From your lips to God's ears! n/t

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[maxrandb]

30. And Your Point Is???

On the top of your head???

You forgot the last part

John pays my 4 sons .05 a bushel to pick his fruit, which he sells at the market for $20 a bushel. Republican legislation allows him to deduct the wages he pays my sons, and on top of the cut in John's income tax, the city had to raise local and sales taxes so that John's kids could get a good education, and my kids could get a good education, so John could have a well trained labor force to run his fruit garden. With his massive tax cut, John buys a second yacht that he uses to take my daughters out and rape them. I take my gun in my, liberal gun owners hands, and shoot John between the eyes.

Enjoying your .79 lettuce now Freeper??

Oh, and when you see this .79, the decimal point means "cents"

[loudestchick]

36. This guy has posted the same exact post at least 3x. He needs a slice.

[rman]

39. Just wait for O'Reilly or Hanity

to pick out one of Wayninsky's posts as a typical example of liberal free-wheeliness or somesuch.

[maxrandb]

44. Well like Freeper's say; "Cut and Paste is your friend"

Q: How do you tell a Freepers been on your computer?
A: There's "white-out" all over the screen.

[maxrandb]

32. I'm sure John's sons

work as hard as Junior did growing up, or his "frat mattress" daughters do now.

Your projecting. The lazy good for nothing, non-hard working family sounds like a Freeper family. Too much inbreading will make you lazy.

[rman]

38. You contradict yourself:

"John and his sons work hard each year to ensure a bounteous harvest"

"...not right that John should have all of that free produce to himself"

Which is it? Is the harvest/produce due to hard work or is it free?


And what the point you're trying to make anyway?

[maxrandb]

43. I hope he hangs around a bit

I'm active duty military and would love to compare DD214's with the troll.

I'm sure he's in the military fighting for our country, aren't you? :sarcasm:

[Emit]

50. Not just Repukes -- Corporatists, including Dem ones, too. n/t