What in Hell is wrong with Geothermal Energy?

[Tyler Durden]

Answer: NOTHING. THAT'S THE PROBLEM.

Could that be the reason the World Bank page on this is GONE?
http://wwwr.worldbank.org/html/fpd/energy/geothermal/
No OIL, No NUKES, NO they don't want it?

You can heat your home with the temperature diffential 50' down: Same with AC. You don't even need a heat pump to do it: a heat exchanger will do.

Iceland generates ALL of its electricity with Geothermal. The US is LOUSY with prime Geothermal sites.

The problem is...once the infrastructure is in place, it's almost FREE. You can't get RICH off it.

So FUCK it. RIGHT?

Sounds like us all over.

Sources:

http://www.geo-energy.org/
http://iga.igg.cnr.it/index.php

[Richard Steele]

1. B*sh's fake ranch in Crawford has a geothermal system.

Just sayin'....

[Atman]

2. A friend of mine heats with a Geo/solar/wood combination

And he keeps a tank of oil filled as a back-up, just in case of a long New England freeze. We haven't had many of those this season, so he's made out nicely. Not a small house, either. He designed the system himself, and it is always toasty warm when we visit!

[barbaraann]

3. I think because it comes from potential volcanoes.

Too scary for me...

[MuseRider]

4. Putting one in

to the pond for our new house. BIG expense up front but it is gravy after a few years. I will let you know in a year how it works, we have not started the house yet.

[Redstone]

5. Oh, yes. I did some research years back and the ones that you dump

the hoses into a pond worked best of all.

Damn, I wish we had been able to buy that house back then. Not only was it on a pond, but the pond's outlet waterfall was right next to the house. I'd have been generating the electricity to run the geothermal system myself as well...sigh.

Redstone

[MuseRider]

11. Now that is an idea!

We can't afford to do it all at once so we decided to do the geothermal as we built. We are building for future solar panels. We are putting in a dry hydrant so I can use the water in the big pond for my garden. Unfortunately we unable to put in a gray water storage tank, some kind of regulation on that. I love the thought of a waterfall for energy. I have a small pond that feeds into the big pond that drains into a creek. Hmmmmm, lots of interesting things to consider. The pond is spring fed so I would not lose a lot in evaporation by creating some kind of waterfall system but it would have to be without a pump. You have me thinking now. I love doing this stuff.

[Redstone]

38. I'm jealous. Keep us posted on your progress, would you? Ah, some day,

I'll have land with running water. I REALLY want to make my own electricity, and can't afford PV right now.

Redstone

[izzybeans]

36. My brother-in-law's brother heats his house this way.

about 10,000 up front cost. In three years they've made up for half of that by not having a heating and cooling bill.

[TygrBright]

6. Geothermal plus passive/active solar combo...

...could easily meet eighty percent of all household energy needs, including 100% of heating needs.

They don't want you to know that, of course.

I simply could not BELIEVE how efficient a good passive solar design could be until we bought a passive solar house. We have spent almost nothing on home heating this year.

appreciatively,
Bright

[Wcross]

7. Serious question?

Would geothermal work in cities and 1/8th acre subdivisions? I have my doubts.
I am planning to use this type of system on a house I am planning to build in the future. My goal is to not use any grid tied power source for heating or cooling. I am hoping that the costs of solar equipment drop in the future so I can be self sufficient in regards to energy.

[HereSince1628]

23. Geo-assisted heat pumps will work, and they are a way

to get the temperature differential needed to make a heat pump work in a northern climate. There are periods of time in the fall and spring when the house temp and the temp of the water circulating to the heat exchanger have no differential. That means you need at least an auxillary water heater (most installations of geo-assisted systems also generate domestic hot water), and depending on how long that period drags on in your latitude maybe an auxillary heating system.

The off-grid problem is one I faced when wanting to do this for the new house I am building on a farm. At the heart of the geo-assisted system's heat pump is a compressor, it demands a relatively lot of power for a PVC system. It's really prohibitively expensive to get a PVC/battery system that has the capacity to pump well water, run a heat pump, support a refrigerator, and meet general domestic electrical needs including things like a clothes washer and vacuum cleaner.

[Tyler Durden]

29. House in downtown Owosso, Michigan near FLINT.

I will be erecting one of the wind generators I can't use in Canada, and I will be tapping into a well/cistern under the house to assist the Electric Heat Pump being installed in 2 weeks to replace the gas.

The house IS 105 years old, but wells for heat sinks can be dug almost anywhere.

[Wcross]

32. Yes they can be dug anywhere but how many?

It seems to me if everyone in a huge sub-division had one it would change the temperature of the ground eventually making them inefficient.

[Tyler Durden]

33. Almost unlimited.

You forget that this system runs on heat, and heat percolates upward at a greater rate than it could be removed.

The temperature of the ground is stable: too big a heat sink.

[puerco-bellies]

8. I've been pretty deep down in mines..

And it was cold down there. Places like West Los Angeles sit on one thousand meters of alluvial sands. Sedimentary deposits like this are not exactly thermal generators so for individual home or apartment owners this is not an option. We do have wind and tidal energy to tap though, and I am sure we will just as soon as Carlyle and friends can license the wind and tides.

[kestrel91316]

14. Here in the Valley, we don't use so much energy for heating, but we

use a LOT for cooling. It would be perfect for this area.

Oh, but that would actually make sense. Guess they won't do it.

[SammyWinstonJack]

47. Bingo! On the Carlyle and friends angle. You bet they are thinking

along those lines, when the cheap oil extraction taps out.

[MetaTrope]

9. Didn't you ever see the movie CRACK IN THE WORLD?

The earth's core is ready to go sailing out into space at the first opportunity!

[Squatch]

10. I'd be very interested in somebody can post a link to

some home consumer applications of geothermal energy.

It won't work where I currently live because the water table is only about 2 feet below the surface (I live at 6 feet above sea level), but we are considering a move toward the interior of the NA craton.

[M155Y_A1CH]

22. Heat pumps

look into heat pumps as the most popular use of geothermal in homes.
They are widely used where the winters are mild. There are also systems made to work with ground water, so I'm not sure that you couldn't use it where you are now. As long as there is a difference between the ground water and air temps you can use it to move heat in or out of the house. The heat pump can be suplemented by gas or electric if the ground water is not warm enough to create the desired amount of heating.

[Atman]

12. Add one of these puppies and you're almost ready to go off the grid!

http://www.greenthinkers.org/blog/2006/03/waste_reduced_recycled_to_comp_1.html

[Squatch]

13. That thing must smell wonderful.

[Atman]

17. Actually, there is no smell. Notice the vent pipe?

The main unit is housed in the basement and vented through the roof. The system has a constant down-draft of air through the bowl. The community center near where we have our yurt installed all composting toilets (four stalls plus a urinal), and there is no odor whatsoever, even with commercial-level use.

[Squatch]

19. Cool.

[pstans]

15. I went to an energy fair last weekend

I learned a lot about Geothermal. When I find the house that I will be living in for awhile, I am putting Geothermal in.

[Squatch]

16. Geothermal is a form of nuclear power...

I bet you didn't know that, didja?

[Odin2005]

21. Shhhhhhhh! Don't tell the nucleophobes!

Thier heads will explode if you tell them that there are radioactive minerals in all volcanic rocks on earth, it's how geologists date the rocks, look at thr ratios of uranium and lead.

[ToeBot]

35. So is solar power...

and geologist generally use K-Ar dating and opposing nuclear power isn't a mental instability indicator.

[endarkenment]

18. Heat pump geothermal is very expensive to operate

for a residence. The pump is the problem.

[M155Y_A1CH]

24. Initial cost only

After your heat pump has been installed you will cut your other energy use by half or more year-round because you use it for heating AND cooling. You will pay the power company for just the use of the pump and fan and your heating and cooling power use will go way down. Now you must pay to run an AC compressor that you won't need and electric,oil or gas burners that you also won't need. Many new homes in my state are installing heat pumps as a selling feature and my friends who have them pay way less to the utility companies all year long and as much as three times less for heating in the winter. At a savings of hundreds of dollars a month each winter the initially higher cost is soon recovered.

[endarkenment]

27. Well that is not my experience.

My geothermal pump is operationally expensive. I think it depends on the KW cost and the pump efficiency. Maybe I just have a lousy pump. On the other hand the KW cost is not as volatile as fuel costs so I'm not paying any more this year than last.

[DrRang]

20. "Geothermal" means two different things

One "geothermal" means very deep drilling into geologically active areas to get down to rock/magma that is hot enough to power steam turbines.

But recently alternative building advocates have started referring to "earth tubes" as "geothermal systems" although they just use tubes buried a few feet down to cool air in summer or heat air in winter to approximately 55 degrees, the earth's stable temp under the surface, before feeding it into whatever HVAC system the house uses.

[Neil Lisst]

26. you can do likewise with water in the roof before sending to water heater

heat the water in a reservoir that is flush to attic interior before sending it to water heater, thus conserving the energy needed to heat to appropriate levels

[NV Whino]

25. The problem with geothermal energy is that

it has not been cost effective. That is why the plants were shut down in Geyserville in NoCal.

There is some erroneous thinking, here, however. PG&E, of course, was looking to make big bucks and use the power for a wide spread area. It would cost more to do that than they could charge and the output would have been insufficient. However, the geysers could be used to power a limited area quite effectively. No bucks for PG&E, however.

The real key to alternative energy is a combination of techniques of what works where. Wind in the wind corridors, solar in the Southwest. Individual solar, wind or geothermal or combination thereof where it works.

[rockymountaindem]

28. Isn't that limited to places with geysers and volcanoes?

We don't have a whole heck of a lot of those. Also, don't forget that more people live in my town of Colorado Springs than live in all of Iceland.

[Minnesota Libra]

30. The answer, as you point out, is present and future profits. nt

[BlooInBloo]

31. "Iceland does it"??? Are you serious?

God I get sick of these asinine comparisons.

Iceland has around 300,000 people.

The US has around 300,000,000 people.

THREE ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE DIFFERENCE!

"Look at Norways prison system".

"Look at France's healthcare system".

"Look at Iceland's geothermal energy system".

Why can't we do that?

BECAUSE WE'RE ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE LARGER THAN THOSE IDIOTIC COMPARISON CASES, AND THE SCALABILITIY OF SOLUTIONS IS A MAJOR ISSUE.


Not that there aren't all sorts of "evil plotting businessmen & politician" things going on to inhibit alternatives - there are. Just sayin - think about the nature of the example you're thinking of throwing out there, and ask yourself if it actually makes sense when "supersized" to meet American requirements.

[Tyler Durden]

34. Your medicine has worn off. KIDDING!

Calm down for crying out loud. The POINT is to make the NEXT nuclear/coal plant unnessesary. The entire Pacific Northwest all the way to WYOMING is sitting on top of multiple lava pools. Think YELLOWSTONE 2000 feet down.

As to where things are more stable, all you need is electricity to run the exchanger and a ground/surface heat differential of 10 to 15 degrees C. That will work on an individual home basis anywhere in the country for heating and cooling except maybe Florida near the Everglades, and Louisana.

So with Geothermal Energy we reduce the energy needs of the country by 10-15%:

Good thing or Bad thing?

Just askin'

[BlooInBloo]

37. Yah - I prolly shouldn't post before breakfast....

... my bad...

[ProfessorGAC]

39. Specious Argument

There is no reason why the system has to be scaled up to 300 million. All it has to do is contribute energy where it's feasible to as many people as is viable. So, your scale-up argument is apropos of nothing. A solution does not have to be a total solution. Just one of many potential aids.
The Professor

[BlooInBloo]

43. So what ELSE does NOT carry through on the example?

So the solution doesn't have to scale....

Maybe the solution doesn't have to be safe?

Maybe the solution doesn't have to be green-friendly?

Maybe it doesn't have to be cost-effective?

None of those things is silly any more, because of your "it doesn't have to be a total solution".

Once you start whittling down the list of desiderata, then I wonder why the example was proffered in the first place.

[ProfessorGAC]

44. Huh?

What in the heck are you talking about? Your argument was rooted in the point that the example of Iceland was specious because of the difference in scale. You are the one who mentioned 300k v. 300M.

To suggest that the example is invalid, or the solution impractical because it wouldn't be easy to scale it up a thousandfold, is apropos of nothing. It does not have to scale up a thousandfold to be a practical solution.

Now, you're conveniently changing the framing. All i commented upon was the fact that the "scaleability" is not an argument against geothermal energy.
The Professor

[ProfessorGAC]

45. Huh?

What in the heck are you talking about? Your argument was rooted in the point that the example of Iceland was specious because of the difference in scale. You are the one who mentioned 300k v. 300M.

To suggest that the example is invalid, or the solution impractical because it wouldn't be easy to scale it up a thousandfold, is apropos of nothing. It does not have to scale up a thousandfold to be a practical solution.

Now, you're conveniently changing the framing. All i commented upon was the fact that the "scaleability" is not an argument against geothermal energy.
The Professor

[ProfessorGAC]

46. Huh?

What in the heck are you talking about? Your argument was rooted in the point that the example of Iceland was specious because of the difference in scale. You are the one who mentioned 300k v. 300M.

To suggest that the example is invalid, or the solution impractical because it wouldn't be easy to scale it up a thousandfold, is apropos of nothing. It does not have to scale up a thousandfold to be a practical solution.

Now, you're conveniently changing the framing. All i commented upon was the fact that the "scaleability" is not an argument against geothermal energy.
The Professor

[ProfessorGAC]

40. Triple Posted Again

The Professor

[ProfessorGAC]

41. Darn It, Darn It!

The Professor

[BlooInBloo]

42. No worries!

I took it as more authoritative that way!

:)