Confederate Flag: Racism or Heritage?

[harpo]

Poll question: Confederate Flag: Racism or Heritage?

[Marnieworld]

1. A racist heritage

:D

[izzybeans]

3. I suppose we must be mirror images of each other. see below

[harpo]

5. both posts at the same time too ;)

[Marnieworld]

6. Then call me beans izzy

:hi:

Since I'm posting again on this thread I'll point out that what's truly wrong with the Confederate flag is that it was a flag of treason against the United States. Why fly a flag that is so truly, by definition Anti-American? It's also not a stretch to think that the flag waver wants to secede still to a country that allows human beings to be purchased. Racism aside though it is a flag of a traitor.

[izzybeans]

14. Good point. Those right wing patriots are confederates

Flying that flag and claiming the left hate America...interesting contradiction.


:toast:

[quaoar]

33. Well, yes

but by that standard the flag that George Washington took into battle was a flag of treason against Great Britain, which is how it would have been viewed if the colonies had lost the war. History is always written by the winners and its the losers who become the traitors/bad guys, not always deservedly.

[rudy23]

21. sorry, dupe post, self delete (nt)

[FiveGoodMen]

38. Just what I was thinking.

[izzybeans]

2. A heritage of racism.

So both.

[rudy23]

26. Oh because above the Mason Dixon line, there's no heritage of racism

Yeah, that's it. The Civil War was a great big war that the Union fought over the ideals of slavery. The Union were the righteous, and the Confederacy was wicked. Northerners had no part in slavery, and didn't benefit one iota from slave labor.

This is why Democrats can't win in the "red states"--the air of superiority that so many non Southern Democrats have over the South. Guess what? We don't like it. Even if we are Democrats or independents.

[sendero]

56. At least..

... above the MD line they don't fly a flag in celebration of their racism.

[trof]

I think we're out of popcorn.

I'll go for some.
:eyes:

[izzybeans]

64. Oh because the question was about the flag

Nice apologia asshole. YOu really know where I live.

I could care less what republicans think about race, class, gender and sexuality issues. I wouldn't want there vote. Nor any damn Republican Yankee's either...If we need to swing the racist vote then count me out. That is what the flag stands for and whoever's waving it stands with it.

Get it. The question was answered. Ask me about racism in the north or in blue states. I'll answer that too. simple enough.

[mdmc]

4. heritage

sometimes racist. Sometimes racist heritage.

[Journeyman]

7. Which flag? . . .

There were a number of them, each with different purpose, each flown at various times. . .

[harpo]

13. Confederate Navy Jack...

[MostlyLurks]

8. Neither. Sedition and treason.

Given that the Civil War was not solely about slavery - yeah, slavery was a core component, but it wasn't the sole aspect of why the CW happened - a Southerner can validly argue that their use of the flag is not based on a desire for or approval of slavery.

But what they can't argue is that the flag is emblamatic of treason against the union. That is inarguable. Therefore, anybody who flies the Confederate flag is stating an innate approval of and desire for the break up of America and subversion of the Constitution. It is the most unpatriotic of symbols.

Mostly

[harpo]

18. a guy I know has the flag with the slogan "the south shall rise again"

sort of sounds like what you are talking about

[DavidMS]

29. To most northern progressives, yes

However, sadly its a matter of context.

We need to look at the context of who is flying it and why. But onus of demonstrating the meaning of the symbol as being other than racist/desiring to re-establish the old feudal order that persisted in the south is on the flier of the flag.

I hope a DUer could provide a defense of cases where its use is non racist/secessionist/feudalism.

[rudy23]

35. See my post -- #22

It's pretty rare, and I agree that the intent of the flag-waver is usually racist. Sometimes though, it's an act of defiance against non-Southerners who want to label them and make them ashamed. Count me among the Southerners who have HAD IT with being stereotyped--to the point where it makes me want to be confrontational about it. I would never voice my feeling with the confederate flag, but I understand why some are angry enough to do it.

[MostlyLurks]

51. I Disagree.

Contextually, the Confederate flag MAY be a symbol of racism. That, yes, is left to its contextual usage byt the person displaying it.

But it is inarguable that the flag is a symbol of secession from the union and treason. It exists solely as a means to identify those states that were a part of that moment in history. As a result, it therefore defines a mindset or point of view through its very existence. That mindset or point of view carries through to those who continue to fly it. Frankly, the fact that SC flew it over its capital until just recently (or maybe they still do) validates my exact point. That's not some guy trying to give a generalized "fuck you" to Yankees. That's a state governing body saying "fuck you" to the Northern states. That's a state governing body saying it still has loyalty to the ideals of the Confederacy, or the idea of there BEING a Confederacy. And there is no other way to read it than as a subversion of the country.

Those who fly it, for any stated or unstated reason, are using a symbol of treason as a means of expressing their personal viewpoint. Now, let's take that and turn it around. Let's say I think Hitlerian Germany was just a fantastic place, neat-o keen, except for that whole "kill the Jews" thing. And I'm just totally pissed off that that Germany's proud 1930's and 1940's history is continually being pissed on by everybody else. So I decide to fly the German flag from that period proudly outside my house.

It is disputable that I'm advocating for a return to concentration camps when I fly this flag. Because the Germany of that period embodied other concepts beyond elimination of the Jews, it may be those aspects I like, and not the extermination of a race. But it is indisputable that that flag represents a particular point in time, which can be summed up as being totalitarian. Therefore, I am advocating that which the flag represents. If I wasn't, then I'd fly the current German flag, especially since the country's now reunited. So my reversion to a prior flag has little to do with a love for the country - it has to do with a love for the idealism expressed by that flag: a love for Hitlerian totalitarianism.

By the same line of reasoning, flying the Confederate flag can mean a whole lot, but it cannot mean less than personal agreement with treason against the United States. That's how I see it.

Mostly

[rudy23]

73. Most people I know don't take it seriously enough to be that strong

of a statement. It's an awkward position for me to defend what I think is an abominable flag, I just think many people see it as a joke, many people see it as a way to express their racist view, many people do it in the spirit of "Screw you, Yankee", and a few do it out of genuine Southern pride.

[MostlyLurks]

77. I get that.

I know a lot of people plaster it on their car as nothing more than a symbol of being from the South or whatever. I get that totally. I just happen to think its use as a symbol in a more serious context - such as when flown above a state capitol or when used as a component of group identity in some sort of "official" setting (i.e. a college) - gives it a more serious weight.

I think Northerners should start flying the US flag circa 1863 as a way to say "Screw you, Southerner".

Mostly

[Yupster]

94. I'll argue that the flag is not a symbol of treason

It is a symbol of attempted secession, but why would that be treason?

A state joined the union by a vote of its legislature. It left the union the same way.

I certainly don't find that treason is "inarguable" in that situation.

Take Texas for example. In the 30 years from 1836 to 1866, the people of Texas were governed by Mexico, the Republic of Texas, the United States, the Confederate States and then the United States again.

They joined the US by a popular vote of their people. They left the USA 13 years later by a popular vote of their people.

So they changed governments four times in 30 years, and the third time they did it was treason?

I think that would be hard for the average Texas voter to understand. I think he would just see it as the voters democratically choosing their government.

[Squatch]

9. Racist.

[hlthe2b]

10. Both and therein lies the problem...

Best relegated to museums and historical displays. Period...

[alcibiades_mystery]

11. There's a difference between racism and heritage?

:shrug:

[Neil Lisst]

12. it's a heritage of racism that it represents

everyone I have ever met who loved to wave the Rebel flag was a racist

[Ian David]

15. Try one of these flags if it's really about "heritage"

Buy one on CafePress:
http://www.cafepress.com/southdiversity

(Shameless commercial plug)

To me, personally, the rebel flag does not represent "The South."

To me, personally, the rebel flag represents the rebellion.

And that is why I have General Sherman pissing on the rebel flag.

It's a slam on the pro-slave-state rebels and those that still wish they lived in the land of cotton, not against the geographic region that is occupied by those whose trees bear a strange fruit.

[VelmaD]

23. I like the first two...

I can dig Celebrate Southern Diversity. :yourock:

[Ian David]

27. I'm visiting family in South Carolina this summer. Maybe I'll wear one

One of the first two, that is.

I don't think I want to wear the third one.

Do many Southerners recognize pictures of General Sherman, by the way?

[The Great Escape]

61. I Think Alot Of Southerners Do Recognize General Sherman's Image...

I have a t-shirt with his image on it...just like the one in this picture. It does usually get alot of laughs regardless of where I wear it.

[Ian David]

88. Okay, I know Sherman burned Atlanta. But what's the couch burner reference

[The Great Escape]

99. West Virginia University Students Have Been Known To...

fire up a sofa or 3 when the Mountaineers win a football game...Actually, it happens at other schools as well...but arson seems to be a more popular story across the country when it happens in Appalachia. The purpose of that shirt, was to razz the Georgia fans at the Sugar Bowl.

[slackmaster]

16. False dichotomy

It could be both.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

68. agreed

These threads are never productive. People can't seem to understand that symbols can mean different things to different people.

[wicket]

17. It's a traitor flag

n/t

[Fluffdaddy]

19. You got that right

[avb7]

20. Why be proud of a loss.....

it must stand for something another than heritage, they lost the war and they lost it badly.

[Yupster]

97. Two reasons why southerners wouldn't forget the war

after it was over.

1) The losses they suffered were so monumental it was impossible to forget. Before the war it's estimated that there were about 1 million adult white men in the south capable of wearing a uniform. The Confederacy put 750,000 of them into uniform and incredible 75 %. Of that total, 250,000, or 1/4 of the adult white men in the south died and another 250,000 (1/4) were wounded. We've never had any osses coming anywhere close to those percentages in any other war we've ever fought.

It's even worse when you consider how the Confederacy formed its armies. They formed regiments by county so pretty much every adult white man in the county marched off to war together and served togather. When a regiment led a charge it could be disastrous.

Just as an example, the 26th North Carolina Regiment was from the Crabtree Valley. At Gettysburg it lost over 70 % of its men. Imagine a week later when the news got back to the Raleigh area. 70 % of the men in the county were illed or wounded in three days. I think it's understandable that the people of that area would not soon forget the war.

Plus there were the other losses. Transportation system was completely torn apart, livestock almost all killed, Confederate money and bonds worthless. It's not something to soon forget.

2) The other reason is the people at the end of the war still felt they were right. If they wanted to leave and form their own government, and they did it by democratic vote,m they should have had the right to do it. There's nothing worse than thinking you are right and having to give in anyway. It's not something you forget quickly.

[rudy23]

22. The flag makes me very uncomfortable, BUT some southerners

fly the flag as an act of defiance, against non-Southerners who want to shame them for their past that they weren't even alive for. Like "I've got your flag right here, buddy". 9 out of 10 times, the confederate flag flyer does have racist intentions, but I know many who are trying to reclaim their pride, and take the negativity out of the symbol. There are better ways to do it, but I understand the desire to be confrontational about it.

Getting prejudged as racist, unintelligent, backwards, etc. gets really, really, really old. Especially when someone uses the exact same mechanisms of prejudice and stereotypes that they accuse Southerners of harboring. It's amazing how people miss the hypocracy in sentences like "Southerners are prejudiced." I could go through this board and find plenty of Archie Bunkeresque characterizations of Southerners, along with statements like "Some of my best friends are Southerners, they're not all bad, you're one of the good ones" etc. It makes me extremely angry, so I can understand the desire of some non-racists to be "in your face" about their Southern heritage.

[Beacho]

24. Didn't vote

To me it is the symbol of the worst act of treason committed on U.S. soil

Racist symbol runs a VERY close second

[Joe Fields]

25. I did not vote because of I have two seperate replies......

IMO, if the flag were to be displayed in a museum, or shown in a history book, it could be classed as history or heritage.

If it is displayed in any form, let's say on the back of a pick-up truck, then to me it denotes racism. Why? Easy. Because then that person is telling the world that he is proud of the symbolic nature of that flag, which was slavery.

[mikelewis]

28. It should replace the American Flag...

The civil war wasn't about Racism... It was about money and more specifically, cheap labor. Racism was fostered and encouraged in order to maintain the "legally justified" subjugation of a race of people. So I guess it should stand for Republican values. Since Republicans rule America, it should replace the American flag.

[Ignacio Upton]

30. Both

It involves as heritage that included slave-owning as a staple. The Civil War was about the state's rights to have legalized ownership of people.

[IselaB]

31. Neither. Just treason. n/t

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

32. Poll Is Missing An Option. It's Both. It's A Symbol Of A Racist Heritage.

[rudy23]

34. Gee, why can't the Democrats win in the South?

I thought people loved to be labeled, shamed, and condescended to.

The hatred of the South on this thread, and others I've seen on this board, is palpable. Hating people for the group they belong to, because of your perception of their hatred of another group makes NO SENSE! It's as hypocritical as it gets, and until Democrats get this, they will continue to piss away the Southern voters, and drive them towards the party that doesn't hate them.

[1620rock]

37. Well why are you defending this flag????

It's like the nazi swastika...it can't be cleaned up and used again. :shrug: We in the north don't hate southerns, we hate racism. And yes there are raciest here in the north too...and guess what, they stick that damn flag on their puck-up trucks.

[rudy23]

41. I can't defend the flag itself, it makes me ill as a symbol

and by far most of the time someone flies it, it's in a racist way.

So yes, on one hand it is a symbol many use to show their condoning of slavery.

On the other hand, it's also used as a symbol to hang around the necks of Southerners in shame. It's a branding we can never shake, and it's used against us by many to belittle us. I cringe so often when I hear the term "red state" used condescendingly. I'm so sick of it. Oooh, you're state's only 45% fucked up as opposed to 55%. Maybe your state has 5 major cities instead of 3.

It's not like Southerners have it bad compared to other groups, not by a long shot. However you probably don't notice the 20 times a week Southerners get reminded that our ancestors owned slaves (of course mine came over at the beginning of the 20th century, but it doesn't matter to whoever's judging), and about how uneducated we are.

To all the people who answered "racist heritage"-- vaffanculo. (haha, just kidding)

I am defending those people who fly the flag in that spirit, against those who try to hang it as an albatross around our necks.

[fishwax]

108. well, the south hasn't exactly run from it

On the other hand, it's also used as a symbol to hang around the necks of Southerners in shame.

I think that's the fault of those southerners who insist it's an outrage to suggest removing it from state flags and/or state property. If the south rejected the symbol, it would no longer be a yoke around their necks.

I can sympathize with your complaints about red states, but a popular support for that flag is quite different from simply voting republican.

[eauclaireliberal]

40. I remember reading some years ago

That Morris Dees of the Southern Poverty Law Center (and one of America's most radical liberals) proudly flies the Stars-n-Bars. Dees is one of those who belive that the South can get rid of symbolic hate. I dare anyone who claims to be a lib to say that Dees is racist.

[Solon]

49. You got the flags mixed up...

Not a surprise, to be honest, I think its a symbol for both, at least in popular usage, but the Stars and Bars is actually this, the first Confederate NATIONAL FLAG:



Now you know why its called the Stars and Bars, the FLAG that became popular after Brown vs. Board of Education, especially at Klan Rallies and integrated into several State Flags to protest integration is this one, the CS Navy Jack:



This flag is closely related to that of the Army of North Viginia's and Army of Tennessee's Battle flags, though none of them were exact, these Army flags were square. All of these are commonly called the Southern Cross.

[kath]

105. Interesting - I'm trying to find info on this via Google, but no luck so

far. Any idea where you read this - I find it pretty surprising.

My family and I had the privilege of hearing a speech by Morris Dees a few years back. Whatta guy!

[Nailzberg]

106. I do have doubts about the accuracy of that.

I can not find it anywhere. Did a search around for anything to support that statement, and can't find it anywhere.

Looks like my intern is going to be hitting lexis tomorrow morning.

[wicket]

63. Eleanor Roosevelt had it right:

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent."

[XemaSab]

89. The South used to be solidly Democratic

:shrug:

[lastknowngood]

36. It is both. A symbol of hate and of the heritage of hate

n/t

[eauclaireliberal]

39. Excellent question

Expected replies, though.

Its very tempting to say that "yes, its a symbol of hate" But is it entirely? As one of the posters on this thread stated, its different when the Stars-n-Bars are displayed in a museum, as opposed to the back of Bubba's 4x4.

If you use the logic that because of slavery during the Civil War that the S-n-B is entirely based on a heritage of hate, then you might as well as say that today, the Stars-n-Stripes is a symbol of mass-murder, racism, rape and privilege. Combat vets will disagree with you on that.

Look at what is going on in Iraq: Do you think that the troops and their families are going to be given any compensation or help when they are down from the oil tycoons and contractors? Hell no. We all know that. Its the same with the CSA soldier: plantation owners didn't extend their prosperity to the men who fought and died for them, so the elite could keep doing business as usual.

The average soldier, young and naive, doesn't question the motives of their warmongering commanders (and the warmongers never send their children to fight). The poor always die for the elite, and the American bourgeoisie have been using a variety of talking points since the dawn of the nation to rev up the masses for their cause, however insane. Was it about slavery? Lincoln and today's left want you to think that. Is it about really about state's rights? That was a Jefferson Daivs talking point, but today, it depends on who you talk to. What's more, today's "Southern Brotherhood" Rebs talk in the context of Southern heritage, slavery a non-issue. As long as historians continue to keep ALL South erners under a legacy of defeat, the S-n-B is pretty much all they have.

As for Bubba, the ACLU and the Constitution says he can fly it regardless of his motives, reasons, or other people's distaste for it.

[rudy23]

42. To those that said "racist heritage", I'd love to hear all about your

non-racist heritage. Where are you people from?

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rudy23]

52. You try being prejudged all the time

I guess I should just accept your perception of my racist heritage.

Why am I being accused of defending racists just because I don't like to see the South tarred with the "racist heritage" brush?

That's freeper logic.

[K-W]

55. This thread is about a flag, not all southerners

Making most of your posts nonsensical. And regardless of how you like to see the south, as a whole, portrayed, you cant deny the obvious racist heritage represented by the condfederate flag. And last time I checked the people who were associating that flag with the modern south werent arrogant northerners, but reactionary southerners.

The issue isnt that we all descend from a barbarian of some kind, the issue is the symbols we choose to use in our lifetimes and what those symbols represent.

[rudy23]

69. When someone says I have a racist heritage, it is about Southerners

I'm saying I understand that what makes a reactionary Southerner isn't always racism. Being shamed and patronized for being a Southerner is frustrating enough to make someone react in an angry way. An example would be flying the confederate flag just to piss people off. It may not appear that way from where you sit, but here in the thick of it, I've known people with this attitude. There are lots of different ways people in the South react to being stereotyped, and this is one of them.

[K-W]

75. No, the thread is about the flag, not you or all Southerners.

Saying that the confederate flag represents a racists heritage is not the same as saying you or all southerners are racists or have a racist heritage.

I'm saying I understand that what makes a reactionary Southerner isn't always racism.

Certainly

Being shamed and patronized for being a Southerner is frustrating enough to make someone react in an angry way.

Its equally frustrating being shamed and patronized for being a 'yank'. Stereotypes suck and so do the cultural clashes that seperate people in this country, but the link between slavery, racism and the confederate flag is not a figment of the northern imagination or a product of stereotyping, it is historical fact.

An example would be flying the confederate flag just to piss people off. It may not appear that way from where you sit, but here in the thick of it, I've known people with this attitude.

Yes, I suppose someone could fly the flag to be a jerk and not specifically a racist... that doesnt make it anymore defensible.

There are lots of different ways people in the South react to being stereotyped, and this is one of them.

And this one happens to involve the use of a symbol directly tied to slavery and racism, something that shouldnt be ignored or excused because some of the people using it are doing so out of spite for perceieved slights against them. 2 wrongs don't make a right etc.

[Bridget Burke]

83. Do you have a Battle Flag decal on your pickup truck?

I live in Texas & have heard all the anti-Texas/anti-Southern crap. Some is garbage & most of it applies to a small but loud & smelly minority.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

74. poor soul. prejudged because you advocate a symbol of prejudice.

what a confusing paradigm it must be to live in.

[itzamirakul]

81. From reading all of your responses, you seem to feel that all southerners

are being stereotyped as racists in this post. The fact is that only supporters of the Confederate rag are being labeled racists.

In my opinion, the Confederate rag is not even good enough to be used as toilet paper.

[Pastiche423]

101. I was born and raised in the south

Then got the hell outta there as soon as I became an adult. I just don't cotton to the way most people there think and act.

P.S. When I was younger, I thought it was the "redneck" flag, because that is who I saw waving/owning them.

[951-Riverside]

43. What did the Confederates do that anyone should be proud of?

Obviously there are a few people who are proud of the Confederate "Heritage" thats why I ask.

Personally I believe if they succeeded we would have been under british rule, slavery may have existed way into the 1900's and this country today may have closely resembled a war-torn fundie haven, it wouldnt have been Canada I can tell you that.

[lynne]

46. Technically, slavery still exists in the 21st Century in the US -

- as the state of Mississippi has not yet ratified the 13th Amendment to the Constitution. Kentucky ratified it in 1976.

The northern state of Delaware initially rejected the amendment and refused to ratify the 13th Amendment until 1901.

Source: http://www.nps.gov/malu/documents/amend13.htm

[mondo joe]

58. And the Amendments only apply to those states that ratify them?

Is that what you're saying?

[Yupster]

100. Under Britsh rule?

Well there's a whole cottage industry of Civil War books, but British rule is sure a new one. How would that have happened?

[Blue_Tires]

44. both

since it is used by different people for different purposes...the same could be said of the U.S. flag or any other symbol....is the swastika a symbol of hate or good luck?

[Zomby Woof]

45. False dichotomy

The Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia had its real meaning perverted long before the Klan and their ilk soiled it even further.

I'd explain, but very few here would understand. It makes people feel good to bash what on the surface is usually an easy target. Ohh! Look! Look at how enlightened and correct we are!

[Endangered Specie]

47. Depends on the context on which it is flown...

any flag can be used to antagonize someone, but I don't think this is the case most the time. Plus I think there are more important things, let people fly their flags if it makes em feel good.

Heres another thing to think about, if the Confederate Flag is racist, then shouldn't the regular American one be too? especially with respect to American Indians.

To me confederate flag wavers remind me of Che Guevara shirts, harmless really, but a bit misguided.

[LiviaOlivia]

50. How many times do we have to beat this dead horse?

It's the flag of a defeated aborted abomination.

[jukes]

53. i support the right of southern sympathizers

& apologists to wear/display the real emblem of their heritage: the final flag to fly over confederate troops was a white rectangle; a badge of shame & surrender.

[mmonk]

54. .

[ProfessorGAC]

57. Third Choice: A Piece Of Cloth

The Professor

[slackmaster]

71. There you go trying to be hyper-rational

I'm the same way most of the time, Professor.

It's tough being "different".

[ProfessorGAC]

72. Symbolism Is For The Easily Convinced

Me, not so much.
The Professor

[QC]

59. Aw jeez, not this shit again.

Can't someone think of some more original flamebait than this? It gets posted twice a week, at least.

[trof]

78. Must be a slow news day.

[riona]

60. no matter what

i don't think i could fly a flag that was truly hurtful to many americans.

[Taxloss]

62. This old thing again?

Shall I start a thread about circumcision if we're doing the "greatest hits"?

[Yupster]

102. Circumcision in the Confederacy

Who says there aren't any good historical thesis left to research anymore?

[dogfacedboy]

65. It was the battle flag of a rouge terrorist organization.

Nothing more, nothing less. It's as anti-American as anything could be.

[slackmaster]

70. A "rouge" terrorist organization???

Do they wear lipstick and eye shadow too?

:beer:

[dogfacedboy]

92. Sorry. I guess my mis-spelling prevented

one from figuring out what I meant from the context of my post.

[Rockholm]

66. My thoughts:

I was born and raised in South Carolina and have lived in Boston for 20 years.

When I see a Confederate flag on the back of a pickup truck from New Hampshire, IT IS RACIST. There is a guy in my town that I see from time to time that has one superimposed on his truck's entire rear window. I REALLY want to ask him where in the south he is from...and then rip him a new one. But I prefer not to get beat up. He is a recist, without a doubt.

Anyway....

Today, I see the Confederate flag mostly as a racist symbol. I grew up next to The Citadel in Charleston. All of the men in my family went there, except me. I remember as a kid going to every football game and watching and cheering the COnfederate flag, the playing of Dixie, etc. It didn't seem racist to me. Especially when the black cadets were waving those flags too..and singing (maybe just mouthing) Dixie.

This is such a tired subject. My "heritage" is the South...my present and my future is THE NORTH.

[Bridget Burke]

84. "Dixie" was adopted by the Confederacy....

But there's nothing in the lyrics about the War. I can understand that the song offends some African-Americans, but I can also understand why others wouldn't mind.

When the Civil War was over, it was none other than President Abraham Lincoln that announced that the Union armies had won back "Dixie." His words were: " . . . I thought 'Dixie' was one of the best tunes I ever heard . . . I have heard that our adversaries over the way had attempted to appropriate it. I insisted yesterday that we had fairly captured it . . . I presented the question to the Attorney General and he gave his opinion that it is our lawful prize. I asked the band to give us a good turn upon it."

www.nativeground.com/danemmett.asp

Dan Emmett wrote the song. Of Irish extraction, he learned the banjo (that most African of instruments) & organized one of the first "minstrel" groups. Blackface minstrel shows often exhibited the vicious racism of their day, but that was a byproduct of their purpose: entertainment. There were African American minstrel shows, as well.

If a "traditional" minstrel show came to my town, I'd be on the front row with the rotten tomatoes. But the minstrels began the "white boy plays the blues" tradition.

[mmonk]

67. The confederate flag

represents an attempt to create a new country with slavery as a basic economic vehicle.

[tjwash]

76. Let's not get too high on our moral horses here...

...after all, the North had just as awful a system in place. They used a brutal system of wage slavery, immigrant exploitation at low wages, and child labor where the children were worked long hard hours at little or no pay (most were "paying off" their parents debts.)

And workplace beatings and floggings were common up there as well.

[mmonk]

110. The rifts began in Congress over new entries

into the union and whether they were to be slave states or not. Just stating facts, no high horse stuff. I'm from North Carolina.

[Hosnon]

79. Depends on the person. nt

[Clark2008]

80. Groan.

I'm so tired of this devisive shit.

[rudy23]

82. You'd be amazed how much people hate being assumed to be backwards racists

We hate it. A lot. We're reminded of it many times a week on television, in the papers, the blogs, etc. We deal with it at work when we deal with people from outside the South. I've met grown adults who think that because I'm from Louisiana I rode in a pirouge down the bayou to get to school. People are surprised that we have roads and malls and television, and indoor plumbing. You'd be amazed at the bullshit some of us have had to deal with.

I'm not going for pity or saying we have it one iota as bad as minorities, not by a long shot. I'm just saying it's a real thing, and this is how some people deal with it. It makes people angry enough to do something as irrational as flying the rebel flag. I hate the flag. I assume people who fly the flag are racists, because in my experience, they usually are. However, I would be remiss if I didn't stand up for the good people I've known in my life who fly the flag as a show of pride, and are irresonsible and maybe in denial about what else that flag represents to other people.

So I know this thread is about the bad people who fly the flag, but when I see people branded for their heritage, or the many examples of the term "red state" used in a deragatory way, or talk of the "look at them in their pickup trucks, listening to their country music on the way the Wal-Mart" variety, I get upset.

It also upsets me, because if it weren't for the negative stereotyping, which usually comes from the left, the Democrats could chip another 10% or more out of *'s base. Many Southerners who are directly being hurt by *'s policies will still not vote Democrat because they perceive Democrats to be judgemental of them. I think this hurt Kerry, and Edwards just looked like tokenism to many who may have otherwise agreed with their policies.

I'm not defending racists, traitors, or yankee-haters, I'm just trying to make a particular point.

[Hosnon]

85. Ditto. nt

[Bridget Burke]

86. Cragg Hines is a Houston Chronicle columnist.

He's fairly liberal, although Right-Wing sites characterize him as a fire-breathing radical. He wrote a fine article during another Confederate flag controversy. It's no longer available online, but I found an excerpt:

"It is worth repeating: Slavery was evil" on July 16, 2000:

Reconstruction, it seems after more than a century and a quarter, was not nearly radical enough.

The latest rancid eruptions of Confederate fervor point to a culture that was dealt with too leniently...

Spare me your moss-draped cards and letters. I am the descendant of slave owners, and a great-grandfather was captured at Vicksburg. I know veneration of family as almost a religion, a sort of Southern Shinto, and I revel in it.

But I have no hesitation in saying that slavery was evil and a despicable cause for rending the republic. I am saddened (not to mention appalled)that a number of Southerners still cannot seem to join in this simple statement..."

www.civildiscourse.com/index.php?showtopic=18

Edited to add: I found the whole thing in the Chronicle archives!

www.chron.com/CDA/archives/archive.mpl?id=2000_3228075

[Yupster]

103. On Reconstruction

I think the one thing that was not done that should have been done was exchanging Confederate currency and bonds for US currency at some exchange rate.

The people of the south had their wealth in land, slaves, Confederate bonds and Confederate currency.

When the slaves were freed, and the Conferate currency and debt became worthless, it left the entire south destitute. Many also lost their lands in the years following the war as so many men were killed, the labor was disrupted, the taxes were due, and northerners were coming down south and offering pittances for the land.

I think this was an awful policy and I think Lincoln realized it as he was offering negotiations on paid manumission. I think Lincoln would have been smart enough to throw money down south als. I think it might have saved a lot of hurt for generations later.

[callous taoboy]

87. Racism- Saw an awful bumper sticker today-

This young Ann Coulter looking woman in an SUV was sporting a confed flag sticker and then another sticker stating, "Love Your Race," was prominently displayed in the top center of her back windshield.

[ceile]

90. I say racism, but SO says heritage.

He's very proud to be a Texan and owns all the flags that TX has ever been "under". It's not something we discuss a lot, because I feel strongly that it represents the worst, ass backwards part of our history and our society.

[lies and propaganda]

91. i just never understood what there was to be proud of.

You lost.

i used to love arguing with cowboys in high school.

[bigwillq]

93. I personally think it's racist

but people are entitled to fly any flag they choose.

[RoyGBiv]

95. Historical. n/t

[frustrated_lefty]

96. Green.

[auburnblu]

98. Do those who claim "heritage" know other confed flags

There was more than one flag associated with the confederacy/ Just pick one without the X and then I think you have a legitimate claim to heritage.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=&imgrefurl=http://www.dixiegeneral.com/flagsfoto.htm&h=374&w=463&sz=46&tbnid=ir7tEuM7hakCPM:&tbnh=100&tbnw=125&hl=en&start=10&prev=/images%3Fq%3D%2B%2522flags%2Bof%2Bthe%2Bconfederacy%2522%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DG

[Yupster]

104. I don't get that?

What do you mean?

What southerners 100 years ago said they were so proud of was how their men fought for their rights in the armies of the Confederacy, and it was the Starry Cross that they fought behind.

So I guess I don't get what you're saying?

[RoyGBiv]

109. Most of them ...

In fact, the heritage crowd is pretty much responsible for what anyone knows about the other flags associated with the Confederacy since they tend to be the ones that preserve them, display them, and recount the history of them. It's people who know little of the Confederacy or of the historical South generally who tend not to realize that the battle flag was not the Navy Jack and that the Stars and Bars was neither.

As for the "X," I might suggest picking one without it has little to do with whether one can legitimately "claim heritage." The "X" is a modified St. Andrews Cross and has its own history apart and distinct from that of the Confederacy or the South. It was adopted as a Southern symbol due to cultural ties.

Finally, I could think of few things worse than picking just "any other flag" besides the soldier's battle flag for claiming a celebration of heritage as the reason for displaying a Confederate flag. The battle flag is claimed as a flag of heritage because of what it represented originally, soldiers going into battle, sometimes against their will, in defence of what they viewed as their homes and family. One could easily choose to display the flag of the so-called Orphan Brigade, the Cherokee battle flag, or some such thing, but other, more common flags associated with the Confederacy would be horrible choices for claiming heritage, namely the Stars and Bars or the 2nd and 3rd National flags. These represented a government, one created almost soley for the purpose of perpetuating slavery. The political flags, to address a complaint offered by some, are what represent treason. The reasons the individual soldiers fought was not necessarily the reasons the government fought, and that is an important difference.

That said, the battle flag, or more accurately the Naval Jack, has been corrupted as a symbol of heritage by what happened with its use after the Civil War, most famously during the era of struggle against the KKK, lynching, and for civil rights, but in other contexts as well that are arguably more important. Ironically, though, more common symbols of organizations such as the KKK, to wit the American flag and a Christian flag, are not equally corrputed, which is what pisses off a lot of modern self-proclaimed heritage defenders.

And that said, clearly a sizable portion of these "heritage defenders" don't have a problem with what the flag symbolized during this era, which is why I understand completely the tendency to view it as a racist symbol and avoid its display except in certain, clearly defined contexts.

[wellst0nev0ter]

107. Those Who Support The Flag Must Support The Constitution It Defended

The Constitution of the Confederate States of America

it's pretty much the same thing as the original United State's Constitution except for ONE issue, and I'll give you three guesses what it is:

(3) The Confederate States may acquire new territory; and Congress shall have power to legislate and provide governments for the inhabitants of all territory belonging to the Confederate States, lying without the limits of the several Sates; and may permit them, at such times, and in such manner as it may by law provide, to form States to be admitted into the Confederacy. In all such territory the institution of negro slavery, as it now exists in the Confederate States, shall be recognized and protected be Congress and by the Territorial government; and the inhabitants of the several Confederate States and Territories shall have the right to take to such Territory any slaves lawfully held by them in any of the States or Territories of the Confederate States.

So it isn't even about protecting "states' rights", it'a all about expanding and protecting "negro slavery.

Case closed. Period. End of discussion.

[sweetheart]

111. chalk one up for racism

I seen way too much correlation between
that flag and racism for it to be a coincidence.

Though it could be argued that the flag represents independence
and self determination, as in the right to opt-out of a corrupt
marriage, or union, rather than be marriage raped like the ex-free
states are today. But then that would reflect in the types of
persons who fly the flag, independent, very thoughtful and
wise persons who believe in libertarian goodwill... but that is
NOT the populace around that flag, no... it is a wholly more
degenerate mob, ugly stuff... like the nazi flag is not used
anymore on bumber stickers except by embarassingly violent persons,
likewise the stars and bars.

Slaves standing for slavery, women against womens rights,
men against mens awareness, people against healthcare,
smart people against intelligence, pacifists waging
aggressive nuclear war, euphemisms the flags, for ugly
pasts over a benign future.