Why we should stay in Iraq

[BrentWill1]

I am an Infantrymen and a veteran of a very long year in the city of Ramadi, Iraq. The people of Ramadi generally do not want us there or perhaps they simply show it in a very different way. There is nothing like love tapping an M2 Bradley with an RPG round to show the soldiers inside you truly care. I am sure I will be back someplace in Iraq within a year and I can’t say I am excited about going over again.

I am also no fan of the decision to go to war or of President Bush. I think conservatives need to accept that Saddam was contained, he didn’t have WMD, nor did he provide any type of significant support to Bin Laden. The evidence is simply too clear to deny these facts. We could have continued the path we were on, and Saddam would have remained in his box, admittedly with most of his country starving because of sanctions.

In my view, and I assume your view if you are reading these forums, the war was obviously a mistake. It is the key reason that I voted against Bush during the last election. You don’t vote for a man that makes a mistake of this magnitude. It is like going to a bar with a “friend” and he lets you take home a fat girl and you get this fat girl pregnant. When you finally free yourself from the fat girl, you don’t call on the same friend to guide you on your next trip to the bar.

However, having said this, you don’t abandon the baby either. There are several key reasons why we cannot abandon Iraq. However bad it is now, the situation would be far worse if we actually left. It is correct to say that a civil war is currently happening now in Iraq. I would argue that a civil war on some level has been ongoing since Ahmad Hasan al-Bakr took power. That being said, there are different levels of conflict. It is also true that the recent bombing of the Golden Mosque in Samarra has increased the sectarian conflict that was already there. Nevertheless, if US forces left this violence would quickly intensify and could very easily lead the religious cleansing, in the case of the Sunni and Shiites and ethic cleansing in the case of the Kurds. We are what provides any type of stability in the area and without us there would be nothing to stop brutal and open warfare between the Kurds, Arab Sunnis and Shiites.

We would be the direct cause of this. I do not understand how we can just walk away from that situation and say ’oh well”. Do we have no moral responsibility to continue down the current path and avoid an intense religious and ethic conflict in Iraq? I also think it goes beyond staying because of moral reasons. It is in the US interests to stay in Iraq. Iraq is the center of the Arab world and is the center of the fault line between the Shiites and the Sunnis. If we leave, and there is an open civil war, is there any doubt that Iran will get involved on the behalf of the Shiites, the rest of the middle east on the behalf of the Sunnis and the Kurds will simply get slaughtered, which seems to be there place in history? This will destabilize the whole region. The Middle East is hugely important to the interests of the United States. I don’t see how we can allow this region to destabilize and sit back and watch.

I also still believe that there is hope for Iraq. If we stay and prevent an all out civil war, the process of democracy will work because the parties will be forced to a political solution. The people of Iraq may not want us there, but the majority of the people do not want open civil war. They want to go back to the life they had before, make money, and be with their family. We are slowly developing the Iraq Security Forces needed to provide security. When the Iraqi government itself can provide security, it will force the Sunnis into the political process. If we stay, I think it is hopeful that at the end of the day, an Iraqi government will form that will share power and the oil wealth of the country. I have no illusions about how long this will take. We are not talking about our troops being in Iraq for years. We are talking about our troops being in Iraq for decades. However the Iraqi government will not ask as to leave. However they feel about us, all parties are too scarred of the results of asking the US to leave Iraq. They fear open war more then they hate US troops. The only real way we lose this war and to be frank, the Middle East, is for the American People to lose the political will.

The bottom line is, if we stay, a large scale civil war will be avoided. We have a moral obligation to ensure that this war doesn’t break out and it is in our interests. I am also hopeful that in the distant future, Iraq can develop into a healthy and secure society.

[bpilgrim]

1. the longer we stay the worse it will get.

unless we are willing to kill'm all, imo.

we killed almost 3 million vietnamese, and they never stooped fighting us.

i respect your service but i don't see ANY good coming from stay'n any longer... just more pain, all round.

peace

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

2. You make some very good points, but the problem I have is,

how long would US troops have to stay to ensure stability in Iraq? Another year? 5 years? 10 years? And to what extent is the presence of US tropps actually destabilizing? It's totally Vietnam all over again: There's no good solution; a true quagmire. If we leave the results will be bad, and if we stay the results will be bad. Maybe the only question is whether the consequences of leaving quickly will be marginally more or less disastrous than the consequences of sticking around until.... When?

What a hopeless mess.

[bigwillq]

9. An article in Time

says 5 years and maybe double the troops if they go the route of trying to stablize region by region.
That's insane.


I tried searching Time.com for the link but can't find it. If I had the issue (hard copy) in front of me then I would be able to find it.

It was a good article on possible solutions to the Iraq mess.

[FtWayneBlue]

3. We have to pull the bull out of the china shop

before we can do anything toward repairing the damage it has made. Each Iraqi we kill incites 20 more to join the cause against us.

[bpilgrim]

5. we can't even tally up what we owe till we get the bull out...

the whole pottery barn nonsense is unbelievable... that the M$M whores even use this as some kind of 'legit' excuse shows just how fucked we are.

NAIL'n JELLO to the WALL

peace

[rzemanfl]

4. How do we do this without a draft and without bankrupting our

own country in the process?

On another point altogether, how do you "free yourself" from a pregnant fat girl in less than 18 years? Why would you expect your friend to stop you from taking the fat girl home? What is he supposed to do, stand in the doorway and say "don't leave with that girl, she is fat and fertile and I know you are too cheap and lazy to use a condom?"
This analogy really hurts an otherwise well-intentioned post.

[bigwillq]

6. Why's it have to be a fat girl?

:shrug:


Seriously, thank you for your service.



I really don't know what the best solution to solving this conflict is.
I don't think we ever belonged there in the first place, so I cannot support this war.
I cannot support anyone who thinks we should continue there. We made huge, huge mistakes and we need to get the hell out.
If we do stay, which of course we are, I think this:
I think we need to start by trying to bring democracy to those regions that are most stable. Start there by setting up a stable police force, which I hope in turn, gives that region a stable economic life.
We need to take baby steps. Go from region to region. Maybe then, democracy can spread to all the regions.

I just don't think that their will ever be peace there.
Too many conflicting religious groups.
I don't know. It's a grim situation no matter what we do.

[cynatnite]

7. Bottom line is....there is no winning

No one wins no matter how long we stay there.

This was fucked from the beginning. Yeah, going to war was complete bullshit, but going about it like they did screwed everything up.

The offers were there, but bush and his cabal were so fucking greedy and so full of their John Wayne mentality that they didn't see or didn't care what came out of this.

There is no way the US can stay there as it is right now. Bush is determined to go it alone and go his way no matter what anyone else says. By now, anyone with half a brain won't touch this with a ten foot pole.

Saddam is out, there's a govt, there's a police force, there's an army and there's a constitution.

I say it's time to leave. No good has come out of this and there won't be any down the road.

Iraq is fucked...I hate to say it, but it's the truth. No matter how long we stay there and no matter what we do, the situation will not improve...it'll get worse. It is getting worse.

Whether we stay or leave there is this: The US will be paying for Iraq for generations to come...and I'm not talking about money.

[greatauntoftriplets]

8. The "pregnant fat girl" analogy is sexist.

So I will take any other points you make with a grain of salt.

And, no, I am slender.

[BrentWill1]

17. No it isn't..

It is fatist, not sexist. I like females, just not fat ones.

[greatauntoftriplets]

22. Six of one....

half a dozen of the other.

:eyes:

Are fat boys okay?

[BrentWill1]

27. Not really..

Not really.. I think it shows that you are lazy and don't take care of your self, to be frank..

[bigwillq]

28. Wow!

:popcorn:


You don't know her. No need to judge.

[BrentWill1]

35. I am not judging..

She just asked. I don't look kindly on anyone who is fat. It shows a weakness in their character.

[alcibiades_mystery]

52. LOL

You are gonna get tore up from the proverbial floor up for that one here (even though I secretly agree...;-))

[im10ashus]

55. THAT shows a shallowness on your part.

You are obviously going to be booted off here soon, so let me say this. You call my nephew a liar, who HAS served honorably, AND you are singling out obese people for ridicule.

Pardon my French, but you are an asshole!!!!

[greatauntoftriplets]

30. I won't post what I think of you, to be frank....

Because it would be a personal attack. Which is against the rules.

On edit: Please read the attached rules link. I did 4 1/2 years ago when I joined.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html

[BrentWill1]

36. It is an attack?

To state an that fat people lack control and that is a weakness? I am not attacking you.

[libnnc]

37. You're a real prince...

:eyes:

[BrentWill1]

38. I am just stating facts.

I am just stating facts. How is not being able to control how much you eat not a personal weakness?

[Clarkie1]

43. Fact is, obesity can be genetic. Nothing to do with how much you eat. n/t

[Pithy Cherub]

47. No, you are stating what you believe as a fact.

That destroys the merits of a well intentioned post because the analogy was needlessly offensive and the defense of said post is condescending.

Thank you for your service and the dedication to which you perform your duties. Honor is important in the military. The US lost its honor in the way the invasion of Iraq was dictated by the Commander in Chief and his cabal. There is no military solution to what ails Iraq. Iraq will only be stabilized by dramatic diplomacy and political means backed up by military might. That does not necessarily translate into US military might. Staying to defend lost honor is neither noble nor strategic.

[Ravenseye]

78. You're stating opinion

Not facts. Just being fat is not necessarily a sign of personal weakness. For instance my cousin sadly is a 'fat chick' no matter what she does. She's seen numerous doctors for years and tried different regimens and drugs to no avail. She works out daily, and is only highly controlled diets to no avail. She's probably got far more self control than most people I know, especially for the meager, if any, benefits she is gaining from all her work.

[Clarkie1]

42. Sometimes obesity is genetic. n/t

[mondo joe]

48. More importantly: the "fat girl" wants you the fuck out of her "house"

no matter how much you think you're supposed to stay.

[im10ashus]

49. What an asinine comment.

This REALLY shows your true colors. For others who want to see what kind of mentality we are dealing with here, check out this posters other comments here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2198658

Don't take the bait!

[libnnc]

54. yep. damn, and I already ate dinner too...

[im10ashus]

56. He's an idiot.

Are there any moderators here tonight?

[mike_c]

10. mike_c's corrollary to the Pottery Barn Rule....

Once you've broken it, you can't make it better by continuing to smash it.

I'm sorry. I do not believe that there is any way to prevent just the sort of worst case scenario you describe EXCEPT through the emergence of a strong Iraqi leader, something that I don't think will happen in any event, and it certainly won't happen under U.S. occupation.

That being the case, continuing the occupation only prolongs the agony, and won't make one whit of difference in the end.

Finally, let's not forget that the invasion was a war crime, a war of aggression, and the occupation is a continuation of that crime. Let me make that as unambiguously clear as I can: occupying Iraq is a crime against humanity under international law and U.S. treaty. No justification-- "if we leave it will get worse"-- changes that. None. Continuing the occupation for any reason is simply piling more crimes on top of the ones already committed.

Get out now.

[mitchtv]

11. while we rebuild Iraq the US

dissolves in unemployment,outsourcing, inflation, decrepid intrastructure, and loss of freedom. No, I can't buy it. Yes he made a mess, the word is quagmire, no easy out, no easy fix. The Murtha plan suits me.

[skipos]

12. I agreed with you

many months ago. However, now I am not sure how much our presence helps Iraq. At some point we are going to have to agree that "staying the course" isn't working. When is that for you? Also, MOST IRAQIS WANT US TO LEAVE. You are saying that we should ignore their wishes, correct? I think the Murtha plan of withdrawing to the perimeter makes some sense to me.

[BrentWill1]

13. You are correct..

They do "want" us out. However, they understand what would happen if we leave now. So, while they "want" us out, don't want us out just yet. They want us to leave when they have some sort of internal security. But believe me, when we do leave, they will be dancing in the street.

[bigwillq]

16. Then they need to decide what they really want.

They can't have it both ways.

[skipos]

25. Where is your proof that they don't want us out "just yet."

The polls asked Iraq if they wanted us out, and most of them said yes. If they didn't want us out they would have said no. It seems pretty simple to me.

Also, there is a Murtha poll (I don't remember the actual results) that a good portion of Iraqis thought it was OK to kill troops. Again, they want us out, and I don't see anything stating otherwise.

[cynatnite]

32. They want us out because we made things worse...not better

and it will continue to worsen no matter what. Iraq is fucked.

[mondo joe]

40. Please substantiate your claim.

You'll need more than "believe me".

Also, please substantiate the proposition that our continued presence will lead to internal security.

Thank you.

[smoochpooch]

14. We need help

If 10, 20 years from now a stable government emerges in Iraq, it won't be because of anything we did on our own. Americans and Iraqis are dying daily and will continue to do so as long as we are there. I say withdraw for now, then petition the U.N. to provide security and humanitarian support after we have a new president in 2009 who isn't a dick who pissed them off. A large, legitimate, multinational force may be able to stabilize Iraq and keep American troops and taxpayers from bearing the total cost of helping the Iraqis.

[bigwillq]

15. Hello!

Welcome to DU! :hi:

[NNN0LHI]

18. I can remember reading the exact same arguments you are making here

This was during the 60's and 70's. Those arguments all turned out to be utter falsehoods. The Vietnamese people were much better off after we ended the occupation of their country and gave up on the false hope of preventing a civil war. I am trying to be sincere here.

Don

[BrentWill1]

21. This isn't nam..

This is not a homogenous population who want the same thing, namely to get the west out of their country. These are three very different groups who will fight if their isn’t a security force to stop them.

[NNN0LHI]

26. Iraq is Vietnam on crack

No good will come from our continued occupation there. Take my word on this one.

Don

[libnnc]

19. But when you break something in the Pottery Barn

You don't sit in the floor of the store like a fool with a tube of super-glue. You apologize profusely, write a check and get the hell out.

We need to get out of Iraq. Pretending to "help" the Iraqis by allowing US contractors to pillage the place does no one any good. Iraq had its own civilization long before the Brits carved it out on a map. The Iraqis can re-build their own country with our money (without our contractors stealing it all).

[xray s]

20. No good will ever, ever come out of this occupation

We are an occupying force. But worse still, we are an occupying force that doesn't speak the local language, doesn't practice or understand the local religion and is frankly ignorant of the history of the region.

We are not in the middle of a civil war over territory, where ultimately people weigh the cost of war and decide it's too high and sit down and negotiate a settlement.

We are in the middle of a battle over religious doctrine, that has been going on for hundreds of years. Dying in this war is considered a blessing by those doing the fighting. At least on their side.

The US has so obviously screwed up from day 1, it must have screwed up on purpose. I have to conclude our foreign policy is run by right-wing extremist religious fundamentalists trying to bring on the end of days and all that Left Behind bullshit. We have our own religious crazies in this country too. Nobody wants to talk about the significant number of Americans that want to see all the death and destruction in the Middle East continue because it means Jesus is coming and the Rapture will whisk them off to God's Skybox to watch the world go to hell.

They have definitely placed us in the mother of all tar pits.

No. Sorry. I have no hope for this FUBAR at all.

[mondo joe]

23. Perhaps you have heard of a NO WIN SITUATION. This is one.

True, we are responsible.

But our presence is not doing anything to improve the situation.

[understandinglife]

24. The occupation is illegal. The war is/was illegal.

Sorry, but those are facts. Those who have participated in these crimes will ultimately be prosecuted.


Peace.

[BrentWill1]

29. Should I be worring about getting a call from my DA???

????

[mike_c]

58. you would if I were your DA....

Unlike some here I will NOT thank you for your service, not for occupying Iraq in my name. Do the right thing. Refuse to continue participating in a crime against humanity.

[im10ashus]

59. You are not a hero.

Don't fool yourself. You are not even a military person, I would be willing to bet. Post a picture of yourself like you demanded I do of my nephew.

[understandinglife]

101. Let me introduce you to the "Nuremberg chalice" ... and a call from ...

... your DA is the least you have to be concerned if you continue participating in an illegal occupation of a sovereign Nation:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=5568226

And, you may want to ponder the "accumulated evil of the whole" while your at it:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=5601256


If You're pro-Bush, You're Anti-America

[The_Casual_Observer]

31. Civil war now or civil war later, take your pick.

The solders serving in Iraq have adopted a "do-good" mentality about the place, as if their duty was to make Iraq "better place". As I recall, the mission was to disarm Saddam or at least that's what we were told up front. Later on, the whole thing sort of morphed into a half ass humanitarian mission with colonial overtones. Look, what you are saying has been said before by the psyops people who are running the whole enterprise and, contrary to the opinion of dick cheney, a bunch of americans with high powered guns and bombs don't know what's best for the people in Iraq, despite how many of them you guys have killed in the process to make them free.

[The Magistrate]

33. An Excellent Piece, Sir

You make about the best case for the thing that can be made. But it still seems to me at least to fall short of persuasion.

The most important element is that the presence of U.S. troops does not prevent civil war. Not only is civil war already happening, as you acknowledge, but U.S. forces are simply a faction in it. In essence, U.S. forces simply run interference for the Shia factions, doing the open fighting against their Sunni Arab enemies, while the Shia factions solidify their position in the police and other government agencies, and establish their Islamic Republic in the south. Were U.S. forces to depart, they would certainly take over the open fighting themselves, but it would not really be a change in kind or intensity, merely a change in personnel and tactics.

In the present circumstance, there is no validity to the claim anything will force a political solution to the situation of the contending parties, unless one invokes the Maoist trope that political power comes from the barrel of a gun. The real political action in Iraq is not being conducted at conference tables by men in suits; it is being carried out in the streets by men in masks with guns in their hands. They are busy making political facts, and the men in suits are simply play-acting, and will in the end have no choice but to ratify what the young men with guns establish today. The presence of U.S. forces does nothing to effect this; it only enables the men in suits to conduct their play-acting with a somewhat greater degree of safety and isolation than they would otherwise enjoy.

In short, Sir, the thing has passed beyond recall. All the dire things you predict will occur, and will occur whether U.S. soldiers remain or go, sooner or later. It was all entailed in the original decision to invade the place, and bitter though the cup may be, there is no way draining it to the dregs can be avoided.

[Extend a Hand]

34. I don't see how we can stay

and I really don't think our government intends for us to get out. They want our army perched on top of those oil reserves-- that's what they mean when they say our 'National Security Interests'

We can't keep sending the same guys who have already been over there 2 or 3 times back and back and back. We do not have the manpower to force Iraq into a democracy that we will like.

I would rather see our country suck it up and reduce our oil consumption.

[Divernan]

39. The present US path will NOT avoid intense relig. & ethnic conflict.

You premise your argument on a number of assumptions which are unlikely at best, and blind to the centuries old history and culture of the region.

(1)However bad it is now, the situation would be far worse if we actually left.. . . .
(2)It is in the U.S. interests to stay in Iraq.. . . . . .
(3)Iraq is the center of the Arab world. . . . .
(4)The Middle East is hugely important to the interests of the United States.. . . . . .
(5)If we stay and prevent an all out civil war, the process of democracy will work because the parties will be forced to a political solution."

Re point 1: The current situation is so dangerous and out of control - after years, the U.S. forces cannot even control the road from the capitol to it's adjacent airport. The U.S. has abandoned it's reconstruction efforts and told Iraq it will have to fund those itself. The U.S. is unable to protect it's own civilian workers, or military - let alone the people of Iraq. You admit that civil war is going on. You admit that even your best case, rose-colored glasses scenario requires a U.S. presence of decades. Rumsfeld/Cheney's policy is in shambles and they are rigid old men who cannot admit their disastrous errors or give up the field to wiser military & political leadership. In fact, they've driven the pragmatic military generals into retirement. In other words, the situation is one giant clusterfuck. Stretching it out for decades only condemns the people of Iraq to decades of hell. The U.S. survived a bitter civil war; the countries of the USSR survived bitter fighting and genocidal attacks; Iraqis will suffer also, but a civil war will not last for decades. There may be some mass exodus, or perhaps the United Nations and the countries of the middle east will be able to fashion a solution. But that won't happen until the the U.S. leaves. Puppet Bush and his handlers Cheney and Rumsfeld and Rove in fact leave behind a moral and ethical obligation to the U.S. to contribute major funds to an effort such as would be made by the United Nations, as well as to pay reparations to the country of Iraq for the destruction wrought by our illegal, pre-emptive attack on them.

In response to point 2: It was not in the interests of the citizens of the U.S. to attack Iraq, and it is not in their interests to continue pouring lives, body parts and generations of national debt into Iraq. It IS in the interests of the military/industrial war machine and corporate interests, and of course the interests of Big Oil, i.e., corporate America.

Re point 3: Iraq is NOT the center of the Arab world. At the time Bush started this war, as you admit, Saddam was boxed in. He was further isolated from the Muslim world by his secular political philosophy and style of government. Iraq was as you say starving from the U.S. sanctions; it's children were born deformed by exposure to depleted uranium. It was in no manner the "center of the Arab world." Since Bush went in and disbanded the Iraq army, it has become a lawless zone which has attracted terrorists to enter the country. Since Bush has indiscriminately destroyed homes and businesses; and broadly tortured and killed civilians, HE has turned many Iraqis into freedom fighters, patriots, anti-Americans - or as Bush would call them insurgents.

Re point 4: The middle east is NOT "hugely important" to the interests of the United States, but only to the interests of Big Oil. Cheney & the GOP have determinedly blocked development of alternate fuels to oil, blocked development of mass transportation which would have less need of oil; encouraged the Big Three automakers to continue manufacturing impractical vehicles. Oil is the only interest the U.S. has in the Middle East, and the U.S. could follow the example of European countries and their political LEADERS, who are pursuing policies to drastically reduce dependence on oil.

Finally point five, "Democracy"! You may be a soldier who understands the day-to-day struggle to simply stay alive in Iraq, let alone achieve a modicum of peace there. But I am a lawyer who is horrified at the loss of democratic liberties we citizens have suffered in Bush's pursuit of "terraists". If our democracy, our hard fought for and long standing personal freedoms,which are the heart and soul of our American democracy, can not survive terrorists' attack without losing our free press, our right to counsel, our right to a speedy trial, our freedom from being tortured, ie. cruel and unusual punishment, then WE HAVE NO DEMOCRACY LEFT TO EXPORT TO ANY OTHER COUNTRY !

[karlrschneider]

53. I commend your remarks, good sir...

as they so well transcend much of the puerile rhetoric we see hereabouts.
Well said and true.
:toast:

[Divernan]

74. Thanks for your kind comment from this good LADY.

A lot of people seem to look at my "handle" and read DiverMan, but it's actually DiverNan.

I shouldn't be indulging in DU time tonight - I'm working so hard here in Pennsylvania for three Democratic candidates. And they are all going to win, by God! and then we'll start cleaning up this toxic mess Bush/Cheney/Rove have made of our legislative, administrative and judicial branches of government!

[Pithy Cherub]

65. Damn! That is just outstanding! Bravo!

That is beautifully wrought and deeply felt! :applause::applause::applause:

[mike_c]

67. BRAVO! Best response in this thread...

I just wanted to congratulate you for this excellent post before this entire thread is locked! Bravo!

[Oversea Visitor]

41. Get out

Stop getting yourself kill
US in no position to solve this mess
Take care of chimp mess at home
Rebuild NO

Many countries better shape to help Iraq
They will if US leave
This is over
Finish
Stay to the bitter end if you want to

Rebuilding Iraq now part of World problems
Because World close eyes did not speak out loud to stop chimp insane action
Least World can do

Much bitter wound and hate to heal
Hard for US to do this
It might appear to be right thing to do on moral ground because of the great injustice
But it is not the best solution
You break it you own it
Can you repair it alone?
Are you the best one to repair it?
Can you afford to repair it?

If you still want to own it then what I say dont apply cause then it would be staying the course to ultimate destruction.

[Divernan]

45. Excellent observations. Thank you!

nt

[Clarkie1]

44. The American military cannot solve this problem.

Saying we are going to be there for decades doesn't help us to put pressure on the current government to be more inclusive.

In fact, it is counter-productive. The American military cannot solve this problem because it's not a military problem; it's a political problem.

We shouldn't even be giving the current "government" in Iraq to notion that we will be there during the next U.S. presidential administration, as Bush did recently. We need to be applying pressure. They need to know our support is dependent on their behavior...that's the bottom line.

"Well, the truth is that the policy that we've had in place - the president's strategy - is simply running out of gas in Iraq. Right now, 3 months after the elections were held, there's still no Iraqi government. You have feuding political leaders and it's not the fault of the men and women in uniform. This is a political strategy that the president requires, to work behind the scenes, to use maximum US leverage, to engage in dialogue with Iraq's neighbors and to get help from other Arab countries to be able to pull together an Iraqi government that de-legitimizes the insurgents, that modifies the constitution so there's no need to fight. That's the principal work that has to be done. It has to be done now, in 2006. This can't be deferred to 2007 because if it is the insurgency will grow and deepen and Iraq won't hold together.

This is a problem that has to be dealt with first at the political level, inside Iraq. Adequate incentives must be provided and leverage attained against the various parties in the Iraqi government and their supporters, to be able to pull together an Iraqi government that really does legitimate the Iraqi people and de-legitimate the insurgency. That hasn't been done. That leverage has been two years late in being applied, the recognition of what the problem was has been late. All the leverage still hasn't been applied. When the president sends mixed messages like 'we'll be there through the next president's…into the next president's administration' and at the same time tells the Iraqis to pull up their socks and get going, that's a mixed message. THE TRUTH IS WE CAN'T BE EFFECTIVE KEEPING OUR PEOPOLE THRE UNLESS THE IRAQI LEADERS DO THEIR PART AND THAT'S A MESSAGE THEY HAVE TO UNDERSTAND. And Democrats are giving them that message." -General Wesley Clark, 5/29/06

http://securingamerica.com/node/821

I salute you for your service.

[leesa]

46. Wrong. Staying will only make it worse. The war is ILLEGAL and IMMORAL

you can't continue it because of these reasons.

We start an unprovoked war against a UN compliant disarmed country and you say we should CONTINUE it because it's already started??? What kind of fucked up logic is that? It is WRONG and it should end today. Our ONLY role should be to provide reparation payments for the next 1000 years or so.

[alcibiades_mystery]

50. The presence of the US military in Iraq can only exacerbate the situation

We must indeed fulfill our obligations to Iraq. I don't thinbk anyone is suggesting that we simply walk away with an "Oh well." But the way to fulfill the obligation is by working with other nations to change conditions on the ground and to pull troops out as soon as possible, with a definitive deadline for third-party cooperation and withdrawal. Not one year, three years or five years. Eight months to a year. The entire UN working on a solution, with untainted third parties filling in the void. The basic fact is that the US is devoid of credibility to pretend good faith on this. We must make monetary reparations and void all contracts entered into under the various auspices of the various puppet governments. And we can have no direct or indirect leadership of any peacekeeping operations that may be necessary. We cannot say Oh well, you are right, but we cannot stay either. What is keeping us there at this point is not concern for the welfare of the Iraqi people. Any pretention to such concern as a policy matter is an international joke at this point. What is keeping us there is foreign policy fear of looking defeated on the world stage, and nothing but. Pride. Period. But it's time to ask for help, like any junky. The current logic of staying is junky logic, pure and simple. Perhaps we need to hit rock bottom, like the Russians eventually did. More productive at this point might be an intervention.

[Oversea Visitor]

60. bush is a danger to US

This nonsense war in Iraq killing US
The destruction of the USSR was brought on by the Aghanistan War
Hopefully Americans people can avoid the same painful path

1) US pariah nation now face it
2) US broke on chasm of economic meltdown
3) US heading toward possible massive internal disorder ( Lots of pissed of Americans and growing every minutes)
4) Would this result in the disintergration of USA into many smaller countries ( God Forbid that this should happened)

4 will never happen as long as unity is strong but the policy of dividing the people using method of hate fear and religion will erode unity. All this are internal. The enemies comes from within.

3 that the fact that the administration is a complete failuare is very clear to lots of people and getting clearer to lots more. If the elected representatives do not do their duty then all hell will break lose one the people anger at all this reach boiling point. Once this start it becomes a very destructive path that is hard to stop without brutal force which will result in massive choas.
Will they day come one asked? This rest with how the elected representatives discharge theri obligation. Sadly they are not a check on a mad admin but look more like encouraging it. Dont make no sense here but that is the picture. So what can the people do. Suffer in silence. Take it like sheep. Cry themself silly. For HOW LONG for HOW LONG would Americans subject themself to so much self abuse before they explode. Looking at your HISTORY, I say not LONG>

[im10ashus]

51. I am going to have to put you on alert now.

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Oversea Visitor]

63. Propoganda

Alert

Intention is that no more about wheather war is right or wrong. But to find way to stay on keep finger on oil pie. So now use moral obligation to stay on path for mad action. Sadly 2 wrong dont make a right. Stupid people somewhere thinking only of control dont give damn on what cost to country is. Objectives of such people are for self not for good of country. You got enemies within.

[im10ashus]

66. "Objectives of such people are for self not for good of country."

BINGO! This serves nobody but the OP.

[im10ashus]

61. Is NOBODY but me suspicous of this post?

Have you CHECKED out his other posts?

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

62. I looked at your other linked thread. There is a certain smell there.

[im10ashus]

64. I am so livid.

He actually called my nephew a liar for saying he didn't have body armor. This is not good.

[Divernan]

68. The guy is bogus-he wouldn't trash another soldier like he did

your nephew and you if was really an Iraqi vet. And my god, even the conservative press have reported on the armor shortages, and how state police were sending their old vests over, and families were buying armor. No question this is one sick freeper pup - the nasty comments about "fat girls" were also a giveaway. However, he did inspire a lot of great comments on why the U.S. HAS to get out of Iraq before that country can begin to work out the hostility between it's 3 ethnic groups.

[im10ashus]

70. I would eat W's underwear if this guy is legit.

THAT'S how certain I am. I don't know how low one can go before actually being six feet under. I never understood the sick mentality of these types.

[BrentWill1]

98. I didn't say your nephew was..

I said either you are mistaken or you have lied. I don't know which.

[im10ashus]

100. No.

YOU are mistaken. Prove me wrong. You are just being a nasty human being. That's what this is about. Feel better about yourself?

[RB TexLa]

69. How many sites have you posted this on? n/t

[im10ashus]

71. Good question.

I think the bigger question is who the hell nominated this?

:shrug:

[RB TexLa]

72. I wondered that too

Here's your google search

http://www.google.com/search?q=BrentWill1&btnG=Search&hl=en&lr=

has about as many posts there as he does here.

[im10ashus]

73. JESUS CHRIST!

You get my vote for researcher of the day!!!

[BrentWill1]

77. I posted on another site..

ohhh.. noooool.... that makes my arguments wrongggggg... wait, no it doesn't. Yeah, it is the same as I posted on the Young Turks. So What?

[RB TexLa]

79. excuse me?

I said nothing about your arguments. Don't be so defensive.

[BrentWill1]

80. No one is being defensive..

Just point out that pointing that out, isn't really damning to me.

[RB TexLa]

83. not being defensive?

I just asked how many sites you had posted it on.

And you replied how the number of sites it's posted on did nothing to your argument. I made no comment about your arguments.

[im10ashus]

84. Interesting.

My nephew and his friends won't even discuss politics outside of our circle. They know it's not protocol to be discussing such topics as this. But you seem to have no problem. Why is that I wonder? You have said that you opposed this war in the first place and you are a democrat. But you aren't really supposed to be involved politically. Especially when you throw around your alleged military experience. You may be fooling yourself, but you aren't fooling me.

[libnnc]

89. the "fat girl" statements set off my alarm bells

A real prince charming, this guy is...

[im10ashus]

90. Just the kind of heroes we need.

Those that marginalize human beings based on genetic makeup and metabolism.

Such a hero. :sarcasm:

[BrentWill1]

96. marginalize?

Is being up front with people and telling them where and how they are weak marginalizing them? I hope and pray people tell me where I am weak, so that I can improve myself.

[im10ashus]

97. Where are you weak?

Let me see. Marginalizing people based on their body types or what they look like only serves one purpose - to make you feel better. Feel better? I guess we should all have the same body types and skin tones and muscular structure? Because that would be just what Hitler was after. And isn't that the same mentality?

Why don't you show us a picture of your svelte, smooth self so we can ooh and aah at how wonderful life would be if we were all of superior strength and knowledge?

[im10ashus]

88. So, um, when do you go back to Iraq?

What unit are you in? Ever kill anyone?

[The_Casual_Observer]

91. The only thing that clown ever killed was a fifth of cheap hooch.

[im10ashus]

92. And his parents hopes for him.

Poor misguided fool.

[BrentWill1]

93. These units...

1-9 IN, 3-61 CAV and now ICCC

[im10ashus]

95. English.

Or you can PM it to me. Either way. I need to hear it.

[im10ashus]

99. And for the record.

You are avoiding the full question. WHEN do you go back? Or are you googling some unit to make sure you have the chicken-hawk credibility?

[The_Casual_Observer]

102. Did I tell you, I'm with the 5th i-v of the 2nd jt of the 9th A-B

To the 3rd degree?
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[The_Casual_Observer]

81. Who is writing this stuff, some guy in a pentagon cubicle

or has it be outsourced to an overweight guy wearing only a pair of briefs?

[Name removed]

85. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BrotherBuzz]

86. LOL

:thumbsup:

[im10ashus]

82. Self delete.

Responded to wrong post. :-)

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[im10ashus]

76. We should force them to see this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x800433

[wiggs]

87. Wrong assumption: that administration wants stability in Iraq.

I have seen very little that suggests that the administration wants: a strong Iraqi military, a strong central government, peace, less discord, more democracy, more self government, more electricity, successful rebuilding, more Iraqi employment.

We are not slowly developing the Iraq Security Forces needed.

[LSK]

94. Why we should NOT stay in Iraq

KATRINA

[im10ashus]

103. Another one bites the dust!

[LeftCoast]

104. Locking

This post has become a flamefest.