More On The Duke Lacrosse Team Rape Allegations

[NaturalHigh]

From the New York Times...

Kerry Sutton, who is representing Matt Zash, who lived in the house, said her client was one of the three captains who gave police a lengthy interview and written statement and offered to take a polygraph test.

"They told him it takes too long to set up, it's too much trouble, and it is not admissible in court," Sutton said.

Another lawyer, Jim Thomas, who represents a captain who provided the police with statements, said no team member was alone with the accuser. Thomas would not say which player he represented.
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We haven't heard all of this story yet. Why would the police not want to administer a polygraph?

[supernova]

1. So maybe they're both right?

She was assaulted and maybe it wasn't a team member, but somebody's friend? Somebody the police have yet to identify?

[NaturalHigh]

2. Well, they've said that nobody was there except...

team members. It would seem odd that they would all stick together to protect three guys who weren't on the team.

Honestly, I have no idea what happened at this point, but the story is not nearly as cut-and-dried as the DA has made it out to be.

[supernova]

4. I wonder how true that is.

A bunch of 20-something guys, a rumor starts up "Hey we got a stripper, but SHHHHHH!!"

Next thing you know, everybody's your best friend. I bet that's how the "party" mushroomed to 40 people.

[mdmc]

20. maybe an alumni

returning for glory:shrug:

[Kelvin Mace]

3. Polygraph tests are worthless

DNA is MUCH more reliable and is admissable. I would not want to be in a position of having a fellow "pass" a polygraph, then flunk his DNA test.

There's more to the story, but I'll wait to see the evidence.

All the sound and fury before a trial (on both sides) is posturing.

[NaturalHigh]

5. I agree that DNA is more reliable...

and the players and their lawyers are all saying that they're anxious for the DNA test results to come back. Doesn't that seem like an odd stance to take if they really raped her?

[IdaBriggs]

10. They think the condoms are going to protect them. nt

[Katherine Brengle]

11. Why don't we...

not start calling the victim a liar until we actually have a better idea of what happened, eh?

[NaturalHigh]

13. First of all, where did I call anyone a liar?

Second, a lot of people are calling the lacrosse players liars, racists, and rapist without having a better idea of what happened, eh. If you read this story and the Washington Post story, there is even some question of whether or not a neighbor heard racial slurs or just made that up, as her story is very inconsistent.

Whether or not you want to admit it, there is a long way to go before proving guilt here.

[Katherine Brengle]

19. It is just...

very upsetting how our society puts rape victims, or alleged rape victims, on trial in this country.

I don't know if these guys are guilty or innocent, but I feel much more obliged to give comfort to the victim at this point since, if it is true, she has already been through enough.

If it isn't true, then I can be angry at her later--but for now, I think the least we can do is be respectful and wait for the proof to come out.

[NaturalHigh]

39. I respect your point of view.

I also think we should be respectful of the rights of the 46 people whom the DA has publicly branded as suspects in this case, since their guilt has not been proven and there are many questions left unanswered.

Please note that I am not blaming the alleged victim for anything, nor am I say that she is lying. For all I know, everything that's come out over the past couple of days could just be defense strategy. However, I'm inclined to wait for the facts before I condemn either side.

There's been too much hang 'em now, forget the trial kind of BS going on since this story broke.

[northzax]

42. my take on it is that there were 46 people there

not one, from public reports, has come to the police and said, 'I was there, and I saw the victim leave the bathroom" or "I was there, but I was in the basement the entire time playing video games with Steve"

no cooperation from 46 people? Every single one lawyers up and refuses to discuss the evening with Police? Seems like suspicious behaviour to me, frankly. Everyone has the right against self-incrimination, no doubt, but there are 44 people (including the one not tested for DNA) who aren't guilty of anything except perhaps caddishness. And they still refuse to cooperate. Some where out of town at the time and still won't talk to Police. fishy.

[Kelvin Mace]

15. Depends if they used a condom

If the culprit knows he used a condom he may think he is safe from the DNA tests. Of course there are other possible source of DNA. Condoms don't stop stray public hairs from being transfered to the victim. Also, the woman appears to have scratched her attackers and may have skin under her nails.

They may yet request the suspects to be photographed for wounds.

Again, people should wait and see what evidence is developed.

DA's have a reputation for grandstanding and engaging in witch hunts. Conversely, universities have a reputation for supressing rape investigations.

It is unwise to take any side of this issue as things stand.

[Richard Steele]

6. Police would avoid a polygraph because it's worthless garbage, for one.

Polygraphs don't work.
It is a known FACT that they don't work,
and that's why they are not admissable as evidence in a court.

The police's JOB is to gather EVIDENCE.
Polygraph results are NOT EVIDENCE.

[NaturalHigh]

7. Not evidence...

but they could be useful in an investigation. They're used all the time.

[dysfunctional press]

9. they're used on tv shows all the time-

in real life, they're worthless.

[patcox2]

14. No, in real life they are used all the time.

The police will generally accept them for the information value. They are certainly not worthless.

[Orrex]

23. As indicators of truthfulness, they're worthless

They're pretty good at registering heart rate, respiration, blood pressure, and GSR, but these have never been shown to correlate with the truth/falsehood of a statement.

Sorry. They're pseudoscience and should never be used at any stage of an investigation.

[Richard Steele]

12. Yes, as you say, "useful".

Cops decided it wasn't "useful" in this particular instance.

Personally, I feel it is most "useful" for TRICKING and COERCING
uninformed suspects into admitting what the cops want them to admit.

In this case, with upper-class suspects who have already Lawyered-Up,
the polygraph trick wasn't gonna work.
And the cops knew that, so they didn't bother.

[Jersey Devil]

29. It would not be a police decision

In many states polygraphs are not admissible in court unless both the prosecutor and defense agree that it will be admissible. The police do not make decisions like that. It would be left to the prosecutor's office to decide that and it probably would not be considered until all of the other evidence available was in.

[Neil Lisst]

8. The police often use lie detectors as a tool.

Defense attorneys who are confident their client will pass often submit them to lie detectors, and while they are not admissible in court, they are very relevant to the police investigation, particularly in rape cases where the defendants flat out deny the allegations.

When the police think a complainant might be lying, they sometimes ask that person to take a lie detector test.

While they are not admissible and not entirely reliable, they are about 90% accurate, and they ARE used commonly in the criminal justice system.

[Orrex]

26. You've making a misleading statement

While they are not admissible and not entirely reliable, they are about 90% accurate, and they ARE used commonly in the criminal justice system.

90% accurate? Huh? Where'd you get that? And a 90% accurate measurement of what?

Correlation has never been conclusively shown between polygraph readings and truth/falsehood.

Sorry, but as an actual "lie detector," the polygraph is wholly inadequate.

[Neil Lisst]

28. No, I'm not. I'm making a sound statement based upon experience.

Like I said, it's common knowledge among those in law enforcement and the justice system.

[Orrex]

30. "Common knowledge" = "provincial wisdom," is a fallacy

Read about the polygraph here.

I'm not saying that it's not used. I'm saying--and I'm correct in saying--that it's an inherently flawed device that should not be mistaken for an actual "lie detector."

[Neil Lisst]

31. It's still used widely just as I have described.

[Orrex]

32. So? Some agencies use so-called psychics

The fact that polygraphs are popular doesn't mean that they're accurate lie detectors. All it means is that they're perceived to yield the desired result, but so what?

Why not use astrology to solve a crime? Why not divine the murderer's motive by studying the entrails of a chicken?

My statement stands: the polygraph is not a "lie detector."

[Orrex]

33. The Quadro is also used, by the way, and it's likewise bullshit

http://skepdic.com/quadro.html

[Neil Lisst]

34. sorry, but I know about these things from personal experience

I'll go with my extensive personal knowledge of how law enforcement and the justice system actually work.

Just ask anyone who ever been a District Attorney, don't take my word.

[Orrex]

35. Could you repeat your basic assertion, please?

Are you asserting that the polygraph is used? If so, then I agree with you.


Are you asserting that the polygraph is an accurate lie detector? If so, then I'm sorry, but you're incorrect regardless of your vast knowledge of how law enforcement and the justice system actually work.

[Neil Lisst]

36. the polygraph is used, but it is not considered sufficiently accurate

to be used as evidence in a criminal case, and it's been that way forever.

It is not foolproof. It can be beaten. But it is widely used.

I believe I mentioned that it's generally considered about 90% accurate. Of course, that's a broad range where "beyond a reasonable doubt" is the standard.

I never said I liked them, but if an accused can pass a lie detector, it's definitely a selling point for dealing with the DA's office. If a person accused in a rape case passes a polygraph AND there's no good DNA evidence to tie him to the attack, the DA may ask the complainant to take a polygraph. I'm sure that varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, they're definitely used in Houston, Texas as tools for determining who may be lying in a case that is a swearing match.

Did it happen, and was there consent are the two big questions in a case such as the Duke players. For all I know, they may be guilty as sin. College athletes at Duke? They could be guilty, just because many college athletes at highly athletically competitive schools are self-important jackasses who are accustomed to getting their way.

I could be wrong, but the phone call, the fingernails left in the bathroom make me wonder what actually happened. Once the DNA comes back, we'll know a little better, but it won't dispose of the case.

If they can connect the accuser to the phone call, the case is over.

[Bridget Burke]

16. Of course "no team member was alone with the accuser"

The accusation is that several raped her while more looked on.

Not that anyone's proven guilty yet. At least we can get the charges right.

[NaturalHigh]

17. Actually, I hadn't read that she said more were looking on.

I thought she said that three men raped her with the bathroom door closed.

[Bridget Burke]

22. OK, only 3 were there.

But "she was not alone with one of them" still isn't a very good defense.

[Jersey Devil]

24. I thought I read she was raped in a bathroom

If that is the case, with a noisy party going on it would be entirely possible for anyone not in the bathroom not to have known that anything was going on.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Scout1071]

21. I totally disagree.

In fact, I think that is a ridiculous statement.

[Jersey Devil]

25. It's not up to the cops

Who gets charged will be up to the prosecutor and a grand jury.

[Catherine Vincent]

27. We know for a fact that some of those boys are racist.

The neighbor heard one of them yell to one of the girls "hey, bleep deleted tell your grandfather thanks for this cotton shirt I'm wearing!"

Of course, we don't know what the ladies were shouting back at them but I am sure it was in retaliation of what they were hearing.

[NaturalHigh]

37. Actually, the neighbor's statement is in dispute.

She's been pretty inconsistent in what she told police.

[Catherine Vincent]

38. This neighbor was from next door and it was a guy.

He was interviewed on Rita Crosby (MSNBC).

[NaturalHigh]

40. Different neighbor, or maybe the passerby.

I'll re-read the story later, but I'm pretty sure it said "she" and "her."

[Catherine Vincent]

43. I didn't read the quote. It was said from a guy on Rita Crosby's show

from last night. He lived next door. Maybe someone tivo'd it.

[Radio_Guy]

41. Interesting

http://www.goduke.com/SportSelect.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&KEY=&SPID=2027&SPSID=25941

Duke has taken the roster down from their website.