WP op-ed: What's Happening to Boys? Girls driven, boys lack direction

[DeepModem Mom]

What's Happening to Boys?
Young Women These Days Are Driven -- but Guys Lack Direction
By Leonard Sax
Friday, March 31, 2006; Page A19

....Justin goes off to college for a year or two, wastes thousands of dollars of his parents' money, then gets bored and comes home to take up residence in his old room, the same bedroom where he lived when he was in high school. Now he's working 16 hours a week at Kinko's or part time at Starbucks.

His parents are pulling their hair out. "For God's sake, Justin, you're 26 years old. You're not in school. You don't have a career. You don't even have a girlfriend. What's the plan? When are you going to get a life?"

"What's the problem?" Justin asks. "I haven't gotten arrested for anything, I haven't asked you guys for money. Why can't you just chill?"

This phenomenon cuts across all demographics. You'll find it in families both rich and poor; black, white, Asian and Hispanic; urban, suburban and rural. According to the Census Bureau, fully one-third of young men ages 22 to 34 are still living at home with their parents -- a roughly 100 percent increase in the past 20 years. No such change has occurred with regard to young women....My friend and colleague Judy Kleinfeld, a professor at the University of Alaska, has spent many years studying this growing phenomenon. She points out that many young women are living at home nowadays as well. But those young women usually have a definite plan. They're working toward a college degree, or they're saving money to open their own business. And when you come back three or four years later, you'll find that in most cases those young women have achieved their goal, or something like it. They've earned that degree. They've opened their business...."The girls are driven; the boys have no direction," is the way Kleinfeld summarizes her findings. Kleinfeld is organizing a national Boys Project, with a board composed of leading researchers and writers such as Sandra Stotsky, Michael Thompson and Richard Whitmire, to figure out what's going wrong with boys. The project is only a few weeks old, it has called no news conferences and its Web site ( http://www.boysproject.net ) has just been launched....


Leonard Sax, a family physician and psychologist in Montgomery County, is the author of "Boys Adrift: What's Really Behind the Growing Epidemic of Unmotivated Boys," to be published next year.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/30/AR2006033001341.html

[elehhhhna]

1. It's the parents, imo. Spoiled children become spoiled adults & for some

reason some parents seem to expect much less from their sons than from their daughters.

[alarimer]

43. That was certainly the case in my family

Not that I can necessarily compare my family to the rest of the world.

[phylny]

47. I agree with you.

I work with little kids (birth to three) and I see it even at this age. In general (and I know it's a generality) the mothers of the boys I see have lower expectations than for their girls (or than moms of girls) and are less strict regarding discipline.

We have three girls, so I can't compare. We have high expectations for them.

[hopeisaplace]

69. I cannot believe you said that! I have actually said that myself

BUT...and this is a big but, "I have 4 sons" and no daughters. (I have a step-daughter,
all grown up now though)..

Soooooo,
I have said, on several occasions that I don't expect much from "men". OMG. Yet my father
is amazing. My hubby, not perfect, neither am I, is a top dad to the kids.

So, since I know I think this way, I work extra hard to be an active participant in my
child's life. In their direction. My 19 year old, is on his way now, but I started on him
in grade 11. In grade 11, I met with him and the guidance counselor to discuss his strengths,
his options (cause quite frankly his grades sucked). But, he is now an Apprentice Ironworker,
making really good money, benefits, pension. I'm so proud. Yet at one time, I had no idea if
where he would be in the future. I was worried. But never too worried to act.

My 14 year old, is just entering high school, and I'm already working on helping him find
his destiny, his future. It will be an ongoing battle to get the job done. This I know from experience. Parenting is hard work, lol.

I remind my boys that they will have the very heavy burden of providing for a family (with or
without their spouse working) and that for boys, this is always something they need to understand
and think about from a young"ish" age. Eventually it sinks in.

I think lack of active participation from overloaded, busy, exhausted parents is part of why boys lack direction. (just my thoughts on the matter, from my own experiences)

edit: spelling

[Yupster]

70. But wasn't that also

the case twenty years ago?

What's changed?

[MadHound]

2. I think a cultural mindset about young men plays into this

Girls are expected to do well at school, and they aren't penalized by their peers when they do so. Boys on the other hand, are supposed to be jocks and jokers, athletic and macho. If they crack the books and are intelligent, they are seriously penalized by their peers, labeled as pointdexters, beaten, jeered and picked on.

Thus, no real love of learning is imparted to boys, and when they get to college, they are seriously lacking in the skills that it takes to get a good college education. Thus, they are discouraged, become bored, and drop out. Sadly, the traditional jobs that they could have found a niche in, manufacturing, construction, etc. have either been outsourced or had their wages chopped. Thus, they are now stuck, living at home, working at a crappy service sector job, with little hope or prospects of advancing themselves.

What is really needed in this country is a paradigm change in how we view boys and education. Rather than building up athletics and such as the proper role for males, we need to present education as the model for how a young man should live his life.

[MindPilot]

6. Right you are, Ken

Growing up during the space race, we were all going to be engineers, scientists, technicians, there was no question. Learning, creating and building is what men did--women too, if they wanted to work that hard--but now the culture looks down its nose at the learned. Our heroes then were James Bond, Superman, Spock, and Kirk, all true Renaissance men. Now it's some asshole who made a killing in the "market" and delights audiences by screaming "you're fired"!

[mondo joe]

22. Also, education has IMO become girl-centric.

Boys and girls tend to learn differently. I see it with my kids' friends all the time - the girls typically do better with longer focus and quiet time, the boys tend to do better with shorter focus being broken up by being rambunctious.

I don't mean these are absolute - just general trends.

In fact I'm very sensitive to it because my one daughter is very typical of the girl style, but my younger daughter is much more boyish in her learning. For a while we thought she might be hyperactive or have ADD but as she made more and more boy friends we realized how much she was like them rather than the girls in her class.

I do think our schools have shifted, with bigger class size and teaching to the tests, to be more focused on production and longer study periods than the sort of rambunctious tone that I think boys do better in.

[Katherine Brengle]

28. lol --

sorry, but school isn't the place for "rambunctious"ness. It never has been, in the history of American education, and for a very long time, boys were doing just fine in that system and girls were being locked out.

[mondo joe]

30. That's a matter of opinion - not fact or history.

In fact there was a lot more independent play time and shorter focus.

It's sad that you're laughing over any of our kids being locked out by intent or by accident.

[Katherine Brengle]

31. I don't think they are locked out--that's the difference--

I think they are trained to feel entitled and that we teach them that other things are more important than education, and they live based on these teachings.

[mondo joe]

33. I'm sorry you have so much anti-boy bias.

It's been pretty well established that boys and girls learn differently. In fact that was much of the basis for the argument that girls were being locked out - and they were.

It's not fair to our kids to teach in such a way that is a barrier to either gender.

How many children do you have?

[Katherine Brengle]

81. ...

I have one child, as if it were your business.

These studies that "show that boys and girls learn differently" are wildly scewed--almost all of our gender-based "scientific" research has been, and is therefore, imo, invalid.

I do not have an "anti-boy bias" -- I have an "anti-excuse" bias. Women were, and are, discriminated against in this country as a matter of undeniable fact, through systematic oppression in schools, the home, and the workforce. This is not the case with men, therefore I find this "girl-centric" education concept foolhardy and without merit.

[mondo joe]

86. Your personal incredulity is not material.

And a poor match for the actual science that disputes you.

[laundry_queen]

56. Also, 60 years ago children didn't start school

until the age of 6 or 7. Then came home to ride their bikes around the neighborhood, or work on the farm and do chores. Lots of physical work.
These days, kids are shoved into schools and structured daycares from the age of 2, and are not (understandably) allowed outside to roam and run around, instead they go back to daycare after school, and when they get home they sit and watch tv or play video games.
Active kids (and boys tend to be more active) need an outlet. Anyone who's raised a high energy puppy knows the puppy behaves much better with a lot of exercise. If they don't get it, they become 'high strung' and cannot listen to any commands.
Kids are the same.

[mondo joe]

63. Precisely. My 8 year old daughter is in very much the

"boy" mode. She needs to have an outlet for her energy or she gets distracted, irritable and glum (not to mention looking for trouble).

[Yupster]

71. I agree with you Mongo

Twenty years ago there was much more boy-friendly run-around time at school than there is today.

When I was a kid gym class was chasing each other and throwing things at each other. Today it is more health and fitness related. That's great but it cuts down on the throwing and running parts.

Gym class time has also been cut down.

So has recess time.

Stuff we used to do routinely like shooting each other with sticks and water pistols is now an automatic suspension under zero tolerance policies.

There are many, many more boys growing up in homes without dads than there were 30 years ago. Back ten the rate of births outside of marriage was about 4 %. Now what is it? Maybe 35 %?

Also, many schools are completely devoid of men. No male teachers, no male administrators. There are many young boys going to elementary school today coming from a home without a male and going to a school where the only male is the custodian. That's got to be bad for the kid.

[RagingInMiami]

37. I do agree with you that our schools are too structured

They need to offer different structures for different personality types, provide a wider range of liberal art courses where the kids would be able to pursue their interests or that makes learning interesting.

I am ADD and I struggled throughout school. I ended up dropping out and getting a GED. Then after a few years of working at UPS, and realizing there was no way I could do that for the rest of my life, I entered community college, studied journalism and drama, and eventually moved to a four-year university where I graduated with a 3.1 GPA in journalism with a minor in political science.

I've been a professional journalist ever since.

I am still ADD, still struggle in structured environments and still haven't fulfilled all of my goals, but I recognize my talents and I know how to use them.

[phylny]

48. In general, schools have always expected the kids to focus.

New to the mix is the computer, video games, and television, which are consumed in mass quantities nowadays.

[mondo joe]

50. I'd say since my time, and my parents, there is a greater

expectation of longer periods of quiet focus, which I think has more to do with teachers trying to manage larger classrooms and more teaching-to-the-test.

One thing I'm very happy about is that my older daughter was one of the few kids accepted into her grade at Seattle Girls School which is a very cool educational oppotrunity with small classes and a real focus on teamwork, project-based learning and empowering girls.

The sad thing is that is the exception rather than the rule.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

58. That's a currently popular theory, but if you ever talk to

an Englishman who went through the all-male boarding school system, you'll hear just how little rambunctiousness and short focus and "active learning" was allowed in the classrooms.

[mondo joe]

61. Since I was talking about United States public schools,

I wouldn't have factored that in.

Of course in an all make school there's no one else to compare to anyway, and it would have been very boy-oriented in the same ways US public schools have been criticized for in recent decades.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

64. Self-delete

[KittyWampus]

23. Popular Culture now disdains intelligence. It's cool to be stupid.

[Katherine Brengle]

29. This is definitely on target --

The irony here is that according to scientists studying human evolution, nature is not selecting for intelligence in humans, rather than physical strength and health.

Scary... that we seem to be getting stupider.

[bobbieinok]

52. same in the 40s and 50s---boy or girl, if you made good grades, you

were definitely NOT PART OF THE POPULAR CROWD


girls who made good grades, with very few exceptions, did not get asked on dates in hi school.......so there was lots of pressure on girls not to study, to work at 'being pretty' and 'attractive to boys' and 'never beat a boy at ANYTHING, games, school, whatever'

boys who made good grades were also NOT IN THE CROWD.....the only 'in' boys were the jocks, the 'good lookers,' and some of the 'bad boys'

Merit scholarships in 56-57 had a large number of grants, particularly in math/science/engineering that were explicitly 'boys only'.......I remember this b/c of a good friend (girl) who excelled in math and science and was very upset that she could never be considered for many of the scholarships b/c of her gender

[sandnsea]

42. That's it right there, and one more thing

For both of my sons, the jobs that college degrees lead to aren't appealing or are unclear to them. My daughter actually had alot of ideas about careers, and settled on nursing. My sons had none. They didn't have the school thing, they've got no problem with that. Just nothing appealed to them. My oldest is taking paralegal courses now. I also think males have an expectation that they should be earning good money to support a family rather quickly, whereas girls don't have the social expectation that they be on their own right away. It might also have something to do with role modeling. While my husband always works, he isn't a kick 'em in the butt old-school kind of dad. We both harped and harped on my daughter though, really drilled it in her head that she couldn't put herself in the position of being dependent down the road. Not having men in so many young men's lives might be making it harder for them to get focused, don't know. Not saying anything bad about single moms, it's just the old who you know thing. If there's not lots of men around, there's less opportunity for these young men to make employment connections. I don't know, but it's definitely a problem.

[seabeyond]

54. madhound i so agree. my son finally got into a school that it is ok

for him to be smart. in the other schools, especially the first public school it was very hard for him to be smart. now, they do still call him a nerd, but he is good in sports, nice and kind, and the fellow boys trust his loyalty, so he is a cool nerd. but he is encouraged by the school to academically excel

also at the young ages anyway, i am seeing a preferential to girls. the girls are getting away with murder. the boys ont he other hand, is called on and punished for the smallest of infractions. we have become so afraid for our boys and so afraid of our boys that we are cracking the whip above and beyond what is productive and i think this is literally whipping them down

my youngest finally had a male teacher. a sub. 2nd grade. we talked about the difference in teaching. how he felt, what he was more comfortable with. it was good for him

i think there are a lot of factors right now. i can also see it may be the female ability to take care of self that has dulled the motivation for male

and other stuff

[Yupster]

72. My kid goes to the most expensive private school in town

and no one is teased for being smart. Everyone's dad is a doctor or lawyer and being smart is just expected.

However, girls are kicking the boys butts academically even here. They win every award and honor.

I think it's more than boys not wanting to look smart.

[laundry_queen]

55. Exactly.

Most of the boys I knew that did well in school were teased. Those that weren't teased were either extremely personable and outgoing, or had had friends dating back to kindergarten before anyone cared who was a 'nerd' or were also jocks in addition to being smart (hey it can happen, I have a brother like that).

From my experience - boys are just treated differently than girls within a family. Boys are often allowed to 'get away with' many things, are often allowed far more freedom, and are often given a pass on bad report cards. After all, boys will be boys, boys dont' get raped walking down the street, and boys have more energy and can't be expected to sit still in a classroom and do well. :sarcasm:

[mondo joe]

66. Your last line is ironic, since feminists have for some years now

been arguing that boys and girls tend to learn in different ways and that schools by design favored boys. So efforts have been made to balance things.

But if we acknowledge that boys and girls tend to learn differently (which perhaps you don't agree with), it's hardly fair to acknowledge it for girls but not for boys.

Your last bit about sitting in the classroom is just the equivalent of saying "After all...girls have to be coddled and can't be expected to just raise their hand when they know the answer."

As the father of two daughters, it's very important to me that they get a fair shake - but I want it to be fair for boys AND girls.

[Katherine Brengle]

82. Correction --

It wasn't that the teaching styles favored boys -- the teachers themselves favored boys, which undercut the ability of girls to interact within the classroom.

I find it very difficult to believe that this has now turned around and teachers are favoring girls -- especially having been in a public school not all that long ago and experiencing it for myself.

[mondo joe]

85. No, here your correction.

The findings have been that the teaching style favored boys, by focusing on more independent and non collaborative learning. The data is that girls tend to favor a more collaborative learning style.

And I can point out study after study to support that.

Your personal incredulity is not material to the issue - particularly since you have already scoffed at any concern for boys' education.

IMO, we ought to be promoting the best education for all kids, boys and girls, not trying to balance some historic inequity by gloating over a reverse of that inequity at the expense of kids today.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

57. The pop culture glorifies being mean and dumb--but athletic

and sports are treated as a cure-all for whatever ails a boy. Does he not want to go to school? Get him into sports! Is he a brat? Get him into sports! Is he drifting into drinking or drugs? Get him into sports! Does he lie around the house all day? Get him into sports!

When I was growing up as a baby boomer, boys basically lay around the house after school while girls did household chores, so I agree with the contention that parents go easier on boys, but even back then, the role models presented to boys were not only strong but intelligent and compassionate.

[cally]

67. I agree that this is a large part of the problem

When my kids were in elementary school, I was shocked how many parents got extra coaching in sports for their boys. Few hired tutors or went to enrichment summer camps. They went to sports camps. I took my kids to science classes and many were shocked I drove that far for science classes but it was common to drive long distances for sports teams. Our priorities are very warped.

[MindPilot]

3. This is a very interesting topic.

I've had this conversation with several parents of my generation. When we were kids we couldn't wait to get out of the house to the point where we did silly shit like joining the military at 16. But our own kids, now pushing 30 won't leave.

Why? I'm sure there is a huge combination of factors, but not the least of which is that there seems to be nothing at the end anymore. Used to be you could go to work, move up in the company, and then retire at the end of a good life. Our society no longer values work or creativity. There are too many boys growing up without fathers. There is no national direction like a space race.

Lots of factors, and I hope the researchers can figure it out, but I fear the damage is done.

[SoCalDem]

25. Parents must be ready to "kick them out of the nest"

and I think a lot of my generation might just feel some "repressed guilt" for having "daycared" them when they were little, and don;t mind having them around as adult "children" now..

But as long as they live in the same home, they will always BE children..

When a grown up kid says "I haven't asked you for money", it's not a true statement, because by living in Mom & Dad's house, he/she IS "asking for money"..the money they SHOULD be using to support themselves.. They are subsidized, and are more fearful of living on their own with each passing year...

There used to be a case made for living this way, when extra help on the farm/ranch was a good thing, but having a 30 yr old "child" down the hall is not such a great thing ..

[mondo joe]

27. I'd be happy for my kids to stay in my house for as long as we all

get along.

I'm Sicilian - when I grew up I had probably 50 relatives living in a 3 block radius. Some never left home, some went as far as down the street.

It's a cultural thing.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

62. I agree

My parents made it clear that once we were through college, we were NOT coming back home unless it was an emergency. My mom criticized mothers who made things too easy for their adult children by cooking their meals and doing their laundry.

All three of us did move back at one time or another, for reasons of unemployment, emotional instability, or just moving back to town and finding a job, but all three of us got the hell out of there as soon as we could.

I still remember how jubilant I was about finally living on my own again. I can't understand this desire to revert to childlike dependency.

[Yupster]

73. I think the boys growing up without dad in their homes

is a part of the reason why boys are falling so far behind.

Here's a weird theory on why boys aren't leaving home like they used to.

Is it sex?

Did boys want their own places back then so they could have sex? The theory being that sex is much easier for boys to get today so they can stay at home and still get plenty of sex.

Does that make any sense at all?

Trying to think of what motivates young men, and what I came up with was sex.

[barbaraann]

4. The emphasis for boys in schools is on sports, not academics.

The public secondary schools have become part of the sports-industrial complex.

[ugarte]

5. Our dog-eat-dog capitalist society has lost its allure for lots of people

...not just the young and not just boys.

[Ufomammut]

8. Bingo - it's an ugly rigged game that's

Bad for the mind and spirit. The one's who are really gung-ho these days - as Hunter Thompson referred to as "The New Dumb" - tend to give me a bad case of the creeps...

[mzteris]

7. it's their role models

What boy in their right mind wants to grow up to be "just like the President" someday? :)

I'm not sure it's any different than it ever was. Some kids make it in college, some don't. It's just that it used to not be acceptable to "go home and live with mom & dad". You HAD to get off your duff and GET A JOB! and get out on your own.

I think it's a disservice to EVERYONE to insist that every child go to college. Not everyone should. Apprenticeships. Mentoring programs. Technical schools. - they're all way better at training people for the "average" trades/jobs necessary in today's world.

I also don't think schools are designed for the average "boy" anymore. The traits required in schools are decidedly "average male" unfriendly. Sit still, be quiet, listen. Write well (at an early age).

It's the opposite of what used to be the math disability of girls. Then they figured out that girls brains matured in math at a later age than boys. It wasn't that they "couldn't do math" - it's that they couldn't do it in the same theoretical way until a few years later than boys.

Boys are that way in writing. Most boys don't hit their stride in "writing" until highschool or even college. We're expecting great compositions with those "writing tests" starting in 3rd grade now.

FYI - these "boys are" and "girls are" statements are broad stroke generalizations - in any given group of "girls" or "boys" you're going to find some of each that operate effectively within the other's "sphere". For instance, I was a "boy thinking/acting girl" in school.

Schools need to do a better job of individualized education plans for EACH STUDENT. They need to know HOW each student learns. Are they visual/spatial or audio/sequentialists? They need to know each students weaknesses and areas of talent/giftedness. What makes 'em tick? Do they learn better in small groups or alone? Do they NEED to move around while they learn? ARe they global top/down concept based learners? Or do they do better with hierarchial fact-based ground/up teaching?


Some other things to just think about: Boys used to be told they had to grow up, get an education, get a good paying job in order to get a wife and have a family. They needed a "wife" in order to have their "needs met" (if you know what I mean.) They don't need "wives" anymore to get those needs met. And now those living at home are getting their meals and laundry done by mom.

Girls used to be told they had to grow up, get married and have kids. They needed to get married in order to have a roof over their heads and to provide for their offspring. They don't NEED that anymore. (They are also getting their "needs met" without benefit of clergy anymore.) But they're still being pushed out of the house by their parents. They're probably expected to help with housework and laundry - and get grilled over where *they've* been if they stay out all night - versus the boyos in the above para. So they want to get the hell out of mom/dad's house.

Just so you know - I am NOT advocating a return to the 50's and stay-at-home-moms. Though I personally currently am a stay-at-home-feminist-mom. (It was my choice in order to raise my boys - I homeschool one of them currently due to the schools not being able to meet HIS needs.) I was a workaholic single mom with my now grown daughter.

The bottom line, I'll believe that boys have it much worse than girls when we have a woman president, a drastic majority of women in Congress, possessing Governerships and state congressess, are the majority of CEO's/CFO's, and dominate Boards of Directors. And oh yeah - when men make $0.69 for every dollar women earn!


Oh here's - my "crackpot theory" - boys are lazy because they now spend 24/7 playing video games!

:rofl:

[MindPilot]

14. You're right on about the mentoring and apprenticeships

I think boys instinctively want to build and fix things. I remember endless hours with me and my friends building models and taking apart old appliances, TVs, radios, anything to see how it worked. You could go to any corner drug store and they had a wide selection of model kits. That stuff barely exists anymore; if you live in a big city, you may be lucky enough to have two or three specialized hobby stores.

I saw a statistic that 20 years ago there were over 100,000 vocational programs in the nation's high schools, now they number in the hundreds. Why? For the most part, it is because there is no-one to teach them.

A few decades ago the construction industry busted the unions and decided it was more profitable to get their cheap labor by hiring illegal immigrants than by maintaining apprenticeship programs. Now they get to reap what they sowed where Mexico is the only source of labor skilled in the construction trades.

[meg]

9. Girls know that they have to have a college degree

A woman with a college degree earns what a man with a high school diploma does. She knows that her husband cannot be counted on to support her due to two-income household requirements and divorce.

The rules in society have changed so that a woman can get ahead today better than she could in 1950. She can be independent.

For those guys staying at home? Who is doing the laundry, cleaning and cooking the meals? Who would do that if the daughter still lived at home? Do the sons get full housekeeper service while the daughters have less work on their own?

[otohara]

10. I'm Worried About My Son

1st year college - already whining, thinks he's going to be a rock star...started playing the guitar about 2 years ago. Quit the lacrosse team he was recruited to - (which does't really bug me, but his father is pissed) Just seems to be wandering in "chill" land.

[Ufomammut]

11. Good for him

[otohara]

13. Oh That's Just Swell

you must be 18 too!

[Ufomammut]

15. No: try doubling it!

And have a very fulfilling life. Even dropped out of high school.

[otohara]

20. Got Kids?

want all kids to be drop outs? As one myself and who also live a comfortable life, I recognize the setbacks I had by not being a grad of any kind.

When you have a 17 year old, trust me you will not encourage your kid to drop out of HS or College.

[Ufomammut]

39. Yes we do

And so far, we're not making the same mistakes our parents did with us by mindlessly encouraging all of the usual types of social conditioning and expectations. Most of what is considered "normal" in our Consumer Culture conversely serve as establishing deeply rooted and deeply irrational attitudes of submission to authority. Now, as every parent invariably does, we're subjecting and influencing, and as parents, because of the want and need of amplifying a sense of protection, certain forms of coercion are inevitably involved, but under the parent/child circumstance, I feel that's justifiable. Beyond that, our primary focus with our daughter is loving her, and allowing her discovering of whatever her passions are. From a more societal/political view, that entails seeking out, questioning and challanging every form of authority ...for upon examination, most are quite suspect and illegitimate.

[otohara]

44. That's Special

you love your daughter. Bravo - I would still encourage her to graduate from high school and if she should decide to go on to college and loses interest because she's only 18 and flips back and forth - and is in hormonal overdrive, you won't say "good for you honey" - you quit!

[Ufomammut]

53. How is it you're so certain of how I would perceive...

Your hypothetical? There are many variables, and I'd take those into consideration. I'm fairly certain that she, as most people do in relation to their parents, will make choices that I may take issue with for one reason or another. That doesn't mean I'm going to take on the condescending tone you've used as an example, "good for you, honey:" it simply means we'll weigh it out, take it as it comes, rather than having one predetermined view that we'll attempt to lord over her. In short, she'll be her own person.

[otohara]

68. Excuse Me

in regards to my son you said "good for him", I'm just assuming that's exactly what you would say to your daughter if she announces one day at the confusing age of 17 or 18 she wants to quit high school or college. Or does this just apply to other people's kids?

Face it, your "good for him" was a stupid snarky remark to post in response to my post regarding my concern for my son.

[Ufomammut]

79. Stupid? "Snarky?"

So, because you didn't like my views on an issue that you brought up for discussion ...views that I explained as briefly as possible... that makes my view "stupid?" You obviously haven't understood my responses, and admit that you're "assuming" what I'll say to my child, or how I as a parent would approach complicated matters.

When I responded with "good for him," I meant it quite literally, and had you understood my views on our Consumer Culture and its so called "values," you'd have understood why I responded as I did.

[mondo joe]

19. College is the new HIgh School.

I wouldn't worry too much.

We seem to have stretched out adolescence into the 20's now, and the sort of responsibility we used to assume someone would have by 25 now seems postponed to some later age.

[OzarkDem]

26. Interesting, my son is different

He was unhappy in high school because he didn't play sports and wasn't part of the jock crowd (this is a conservative community). His teachers ignored him because he had ADD and had a "different" learning style. He got low grades, even though he could write computer programs, wrote several award winning short stories and had read all the major philosophers by his sophomore year. In spite of it all he had lots of friends. He graduated with a 2.0 GPA.

Now finishing up his sophomore year in collge with a near 4.0 GPA, he's already planning to go to graduate school and already has two similar career paths he's looking at, one in academia, one in the private sector.

He was encouraged from a very young age to pursue interests in many areas, and I think that helped.

[otohara]

34. My Son is Doing Well

and he dropped out of lacrosse, which is the reason he went to this particular college. He was recruited.

He also went to conservative HS school - soccer/lacrosse star 4.0. I don't care about him dropping out of LAX (the testosterone level in college just grossed him out and it wasn't fun anymore) I would have done the same and after the whole Duke scandal - he says college players are completely outrageous with their drinking and obnoxious behavior.

I just worry about his ups and downs - this notion of being a musician troubles me. I worked in the recording industry (when there was one) for years and in radio for 10 years. It's a struggle for the few who make it, unless you're a U2.

If he wants to save the world through music, i'm all for it - i just want him to have that degree, just in case it doesn't work out.

He's smart, sometimes he thinks he's too smart - which is trouble too.

His group of guy friends are all in this "chill" mood, not thinkning about the future much.

[sandnsea]

45. Mine too, more or less

He went to school to run track. He got there and absolutely hated it. Plus, he took a look at what he was going to owe in loans and completely freaked. He came back home, is working and going to community college. He had thought he wanted to be a PE teacher, but isn't sure about that anymore. Tired of being cooped up, tired of crap wages, can't quite see his place in the world. Escapes to chill land. And this is a very rational kid who got good grades and has never been an ounce of trouble. I know what you mean. I also know how easy it is for kids to get into trouble so it is hard to do the kick 'em out of the nest thing these days. Between him and my older son, who finally decided to go to college for paralegal work, I just have to take the "they're not on drugs, not in prison, and not makin' babies" approach. Good luck to you too!

[RedEarth]

51. Sounds somewhat similar to my son.....

Not a jock, nice guy but sort of a nerd, hated HS, wouldn't do his homework, grades were okay, but not great. His senior year in HS he took the ACT did very well on it and now is working on his PhD in math. In college, he did change his major three times and but now has found a passion in math.

When he was growing up, we also encouraged and let him to pursue a variety of interests(Tae Quan Doe..sp, fencing, piano, magic cards, computers, art, photography, etc). He also worked in high school and college, and I think that helped him become a more responsible person.

On the other hand, our daughter was the opposite of our son in HS....athletic and good grades.

As a parent, you just hope and pray you make the right decisions when your children are growing up.

[THUNDER HANDS]

59. maybe young men are just waiting to be drafted

and throw their lives away in another unnecessary immoral war. Does the future look that bright to anyone, anymore?

[DemExpat]

12. When my son didn't want to continue his education

I 'encouraged' him to find a place to live on his own, so now he must work full-time to afford his living quarters and costs. If he should want to return to school he is welcome to come back and live at home, but the last thing I wanted was a child in his twenties living here and not learning to make a living for himself.

I think it is a complex of reasons why boys aren't as motivated now....I am thinking that part of the problem is some residual resentment of having to share the playing field with females - a loss of male identity as the breadwinner, the one "entitled" to enjoy a higher education and professional life.

DemEx

[Jim Warren]

16. You blame them?

Really not much in this post-modern world of ours of any real worth.

[Ufomammut]

17. There are many variables, however...

More and more people, in backlash against our form of corporatized, democratic unfreedom, have decided, if even on a visceral level, that equating the intrinsic worth of human life with how one earns and spends speaks to the complicated futility of ignorance ...or, ignore - ance.

[JHB]

18. Among the other fine reasons already mentioned: Housing Costs

Back in the 60's I was still in the diaper-wearing democraphic, so I don't have first-hand knowledge, but most of the stories I hear tell me that back then it wasn't too hard to find some minimally-decent place to live on your own (or with a few friends). These days "on your own" costs seem to take a much bigger bite out of the budget pie.

[OzarkDem]

24. Also better choice of good paying jobs available

to those who didn't want to get a 4 yr. degree. The author also mentions that possibility in his article.

Its probably a combination of factors. Families are smaller, so its not hard for kids to return home and live - there aren't a lot of younger siblings still at home.

You also have to wonder if the heavy emphasis on playing sports from an early age through high school prevents kids from thinking or learning about real careers. You see so many kids and parents these days obsessed with their kids sports not realizing its a short term goal. They've lost sight of the idea that sports should be for exercise and recreation, not an obsession with winning and getting a sports scholarship. No wonder these kids get to college and find they don't know anything other than sports.

[MindPilot]

36. all living expenses actually

When I first entered the workforce, the minimum wage was $1.60. A single person could live on that. Not well, but it would buy a little apartment, groceries, maintain a car and handle most of the basics with some left over for beer money. A couple of years later, minimum wage was up to a whopping $2.25 and I was able to buy a house. Of course in those days there was a real stigma attached to a single guy buying a house. "Why aren't you married? You some kinda queer boy?"

[Yupster]

74. We lived in New York City

It was prohibitive thirty years ago just as it is now.

We either got tiny places or we left the city but we didn't stay at home.

[Neil Lisst]

21. women are more affected by parents' expectations than men

and the expectations of other women

men, not so much

[newportdadde]

32. My take as 29 year old father of 3, married at 22, own home at 23.

I think there are several different things at play here.

1)Lack of good paying entry level jobs, not everyone is a good fit for college. You use to be able even at 18 to get a decent union job, those are pretty much gone. This has closed down a lot of typical 'guy jobs'.

2)I think there is more shame in a man living at home then for a woman so now that its increasing you hear a lot more about it because guy at home = looser, woman at home = finding herself/has a plan.

3)Lack of rewarding intelligence both my peers and many times by fathers. I was the top graduating male from highschool, didn't mean jack shit. The highschool mentality for boys is all about sports. My father was big on study but most fathers would rather have a son get Cs who was a starting Varsity player then a kid who got straight As.

4)Lack of good family male role models. I got very good modeling from both my parents but both brought different things to the table. If my father wasn't there or just a close male friend etc I think it can make a difference.

5)Lack of a good plan. Your not going to cut the mustard today with a general college degree or a liberal arts degree. Pick something that makes a decent salary and stick to it. Almost nobody actually likes their job so at least get the most pay that you can.

example - sister in law got a specific degree in Debating and PR or something.. unemployeed for a year and now going for her Masters in the same degree.

[Jim__]

38. I hate your advice in #5 - Pick something that makes a decent salary

Might as well advise someone to shoot for being miserable and rich rather than just miserable. If those are the options, you might just as well keep on living at home with your parents - be miserable and cared for.

I think much better advice is to find something you love doing and do that.

[HughBeaumont]

41. Plus you aren't going to compete with those in miserable but rich field

who truly love their profession and would do it anyway were there not that much money involved. But then the rub becomes this - the saying "Do what you love, and the money will follow" is kind of a pile of horsepuckey. I mean, what if I truly love songwriting, poetry or art? Is there a guarantee that the money is going to follow in those great but monetary crapshots?

[incapsulated]

78. I think you need to be less specific

If you love songwriting or art or poetry, you are probably just a creative person. There are fields that you can enter and make a living while using your natural creativity, and you will thrive because it is what you truly enjoy doing, using your creativity and being inventive. And you can do something specific like your poetry in your free time, as well. Telling someone like this to go and be an accountant will only make for a very lousy and depressed accountant. Now some people DO have a burning desire to be a painter or a songwriter and if that is the case they should go for it, because whether they suceed or fail, if they never try they will mourn the fact that they didn't the rest of their life.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

80. Very, very true

The last college I taught at reported that graduates were coming back to the Career Counseling Office about five to ten years out from graduation, complaining that they hated the jobs they had taken just to earn money, were depressed all the time, and wanted to do something they were really interested in.

Once you have your basic needs taken care of, there's more to happiness than money. Some of the most fulfilled people I know are free-lance classical musicians, who may be living on peanut butter sandwiches but who get to do work that they absolutely love. Waiting on tables while waiting for a break as an actor is a time-honored tradition, and if a person is willing to do that, fine.

The problem arises when someone who has no strong talents or intellectual interests just lies around the parental home watching TV or playing video games and occasionally venturing out to work at a part-time, dead-end job or to hang out with friends.

Believe it or not, this phenomenon is so common in Japan that they've coined a made-in-Japan English phrase for it: "parasite single."

In both the U.S. and Japan, I see it as a phenomenon of parents being unwilling to let go, to give their grown children the boot (as all animals do) and to say, "You've got to make your own way."

[AllieB]

35. Things change when women enter the work force

Men more than make up for doing worse in school by getting paid more and promoted over women. I do, however, fault the parents for not giving their boys more direction, rather than the "feminized" curriculum at schools.

[Atman]

40. On a cultural level, the "Women's Movement" pendulum swung too far

Don't get out the flamethrowers just yet! It didn't swing too far for WOMEN. It probably hasn't swung far enough yet, in that regard. However, us 'boomers have seen a radical change in the the way male/female relationships and characters are portrayed in our popular culture. When most of us were kids, Dick & Mary had to sleep in seperate beds! It was a newsmaking event when Edith had to get a job. It was damned near groundbreaking when Mary Richards was the headliner of a tv show, as a professional woman without a MAN, instead of a maid (Hazel) or housewife (Beaver).

But it went a bit too far. Look at any television commercial now...the men are ALWAYS the bumbling fools. Always. The woman saves the day every time. Even in the stupid Vonage commercials, mom talks about how she hooked up the new phone while dad is an embarrassing jackass in the background.

Expanding upon all that, we got "hip hop" culture, quickly embraced by SUBurban teens, glorifying IGNORANCE. Being smart is "too white." Knowing stuff ain't cool. Control your bitches. Every bad message a teen could get concentrated in a few MTV videos. They got to middle and high school, and special programs abound for girls. Everything was set up to "counter act" our cultural biases which advantaged men.

Boys have become marginalized, throw-aways. Everything today is about redressing the injustices against women, blacks, whatever...and boy, just plain old boys, are targeted as nothing more than a market for Playstations. That is the message society sends boys nows. Your worth is measured by your video game system and not much else. "Heroes" turn out to be on steroids, or wife beaters. Working hard turns out to be a fools errand, because the man can take your benefits and kick you out on your ass without so much as a reach-around.

Concurrently, women have been portrayed as leaders, movers, decision makers, heads of households, everything us 'boomer boys used to be. I'm not saying it's bad or good. It is a cultural shift. The trouble is, the cultural shift was all focused around everyone but boys, and boys have wound up feeling like a societal after-thought.

Or maybe not. This was kind of a free-writing excercise. Feel free to pick it apart!

[Yupster]

75. Just a couple weeks ago I actually LOL'd when I read

a headline on the front page of our local paper.

It seems some group was coming into town to encourage girls to go to college.

I actually laughed as girls are going to college at a 60-40 rate over boys now.

[Katherine Brengle]

83. Interesting...

I think you have some valid points. I think it is indicative of our society's problems in general that this is happening, and less to do with women's lib, however.

We tend to focus on the downtrodden because they actually need the help. Considering we have done this, and the lot of most of these has only improved marginally, I think this is still necessary.

It seems to me that men have been trained to think they must act one way (macho, in a word) and that this precludes intelligence, sensitivity, and compassion. Men need to step up and take those things back for themselves--and I would stand alongside them fighting for their right to simply be human instead of "manly."

[callous taoboy]

46. Hard to know how to be a man these days:

I'm 41, buying a house, am single and financially/emotionally independent from family. But I've had a tough time knowing where I fit in 1)geopraphically 2)politically 3)socially 4)as a single man who aspires to marry up at some point.

[Nikki Stone1]

49. Hey, this ALWAYS happened. Back in the 1950s, my mom's female friends

couldn't go to college because they didn't want to "waste" their money on a girl's education, even when the girls were really good students. THe brothers got to go instead, and some of them fucked up.

This is nothing new. It's just convenient for the Republican agenda to talk about boys "having problems" because of "broken" families and feminism.

But, it's nothing new.

[oldcoot]

60. Which sex is more likely to be prescribed drugs?

Which sex is more likely to be prescribed drugs for behavioral problems? Is there a possible link between a lack of ambition and prescription drugs?

[OKNancy]

65. Sex

got your attention. How about this theory?
In the olden days in order to get regular sex, a fellow had to be married. He studied, worked and strived so he could make a living so he could marry and support a family.

[Yupster]

76. Nancy

I posted a similar theory above before I read yours.

I really think there's something to the sex theory.

Back when I was growing up you got sex as an average boy when you were close to married. I wouldn't be surprised if this was one of the major factors encouraging boys to get their lives on track.

Today, it seems much easier to get regular sex and therefore it is no longer a force pushing boys to succeed.

Maybe you're nuts, but I thought of the same thing too.

[Katherine Brengle]

84. ...

Very interesting theory -- maybe not dead on, but likely this accounts for part of the problem.

In which case, I say -- get real guys. Life is not about sticking your penis in things.

Bah.

[Nikia]

77. The gender dichotomy has failed boys

Many people are used to seeing males and females as opposites, with male=more powerful, more important, and not female. Boys sought to not be like girls and women. The women's movement has encouraged girls to pursue many different careers and options and to succeed. Boys are still taught not to be like girls and those who follow that advice are left with very few options. They need to be taught that there is nothing wrong with doing what the girls are doing if it is what they enjoy and/or will bring them success. They need to get over their gynophobia.