Illegals STICKIN' IT to American Workers: Or Maybe They're Brainwashed?

[Dr. Jones]

I'm really curious. The past week or so has brought to light the attitudes and beliefs of so many illegals in this country in regards to how they view their role in the American workforce, despite the fact that they are knowingly in this country against the laws of our land.

Case in point. During the protests the past week or so, I have heard at least two illegal immigrants say that they came here because they're doing the jobs "Americans won't do." One even had the gall to claim hat illegal immigration CREATES jobs in the U.S.! Where did they get this from? Construction work, agricultural work, truck driving, and factory work are ALL jobs Americans WILL and DO do but are not able to do anymore because illegals have basically come in, pushed their wages down, and forced them out of the market! So who's telling them this lie then? Vicente Fox? Bush? Who?

Then comes this morning when I was awoken by my radio alarm clock, and I hear the voice of another illegal immigrant saying this outrageous statement regarding the rebuilding of New Orleans: "The locals here...they just don't want to work."

Now I HAVE to ask this question. This is not flamebait, but it's a serious question. Are these illegals trying to start a culture war? Their rhetoric is so blatant to me, I can't help but to wonder. Or maybe they've just found out that they've been lied to all this time, and American workers aren't necessarily so grateful they're here?

The other night on the news (either CBS Evening News or ABC World News Tonight, forget exactly which), a lady standing near a dropoff gathering point for illegal workers pointed to a nearby street corner and lamented on how American workers are indeed being pushed out because these illegals will work for far less money. She recalled that if an American dares stand alongside them for work, the American gets beat up and even knifed! I have no reason to doubt her, she seemed credible enough and well spoken. These things aren't exactly discussed in detail on the nightly news, but people need to hear what is REALLY going on.

So what gives? Are illegals purposefully stickin' it to the American worker, or has somebody brainwashed them into believing that they ARE INDEED coming into America to do "the jobs Americans won't do?" Maybe Vicente Fox is out there encouraging Mexicans to come to the United States, pushing it as some noble cause where they are HELPING Americans by doing the jobs that Americans don't feel like doing. Obviously Bush is doing this too. But it sure isn't helping them, and it sure isn't helping the American middle class either.

[Warpy]

1. Just another brainwashed FOOL who doesn't realize who the enemy

is, that CHEAP ASS employer who wants him to work for starvation wages and wants a free ride on his back.

End cheap labor conservatism, raise the minimum wage and ENFORCE IT, enforce the laws on the books that punish employers for hiring illegals and exploiting them with substandard wages and you'll see the immigration "crisis" go bye bye.

[AzDar]

2. Sounds about right to me, Warpy. n/t

[blondeatlast]

3. Funny how the solution is so clear, yet missed by so many.

The solution in 37 words with no spilled blood on any side.

I wish I could recommend this post alone.

Nice work.

Edit: worthy of its own thread, seriously. More points of agreement in your post than in the hundreds of other threads on the topic combined.

[Jim Warren]

5. You're right, of course

but it ain't gonna happen like 1,2,3 in any forseeable future, matter of fact it'll get a lot worse.


1.End cheap labor conservatism
2.raise the minimum wage and ENFORCE IT
3.enforce the laws on the books that punish employers for hiring illegals and exploiting them with substandard wages

[Dr. Jones]

8. That is a good and proper course of action.

I agree. :)

[Dr. Jones]

6. I'm trying to have a civil discourse regarding

the attitudes and beliefs of illegal workers in our American workforce. I do realize that greedy companies are to blame as well, I cannot deny that.

Also you have to once and for all can the phrase, "Jobs Americans will not do." This makes me crazy every time Bush says it. What a liar.

[blondeatlast]

9. "Are these illegals trying to start a culture war?

Their rhetoric is so blatant to me, I can't help but to wonder."

No, the illegals aren't--the party in power IS.

It's not called a wedge issue for nothing.

[Dr. Jones]

24. Hmph. True, but why would they push a wedge issue

where they KNOW they'll lose? They just angered the Hispanic community tremendously to the point of possibly losing the 2006 elections! So why would they put up a wedge issue that they'll lose on?

Unless things are SO BAD in Iraq they have no choice but to divert attention...but in the end they lose either way.

[blondeatlast]

30. They thought they were going to win on this--seriously.

I live in a border state (AZ) and the issue's been on the front burner here for years.

The state legislature has tackled it repeatedly and nothing's been done.

The only proposal in our leg. that will have any real effect and relatively easy to put into practice--employer sanctions and fines, is repeatedly brought up and repeatedly shot down.

That latter part--the fact that sanctions have been defeated repeatedly, is what made this seem like a winner issue for the Rs.

What they fail to recognize is--every time the sanction issue is brought before the legislature, it's legs grow more strength. Even the RW wackos who oppose border crossing (plese note: I'm not accusing EVERYONE who opposes border crossing of RW wackoness, but I do know some who are RW wackos) are supporting sanctions as the way to curb it--and looking for leadership outside the Republican party for a fix.

[alcibiades_mystery]

42. They are trying to save troubled seats in the South

Georgia, North and South Carolina, Tennessee, etc. They can spend money in Arizona and New Mexico and Colorado if they don't have to spend it in Georgia.

[Marie26]

13. I think unless you know any

illegal immigrants, you can't know their attitudes & beliefs. Please don't believe everything you see in the media. I have worked w/illegal immigrants, and the vast majority simply want to have a better life for themselves & their families; I haven't heard a single one say anything about "the American worker." They're much too busy trying to survive.

[Dr. Jones]

27. Well I HAVE heard some illegals saying these things -

hence the point of this thread. If you're telling me what I have seen and heard on the news was fabricated, I simply cannot buy that argument. They said what they said.

Maybe they haven't said anything about "the American worker" per se, but they've definitely had a serious impact on the American middle class.

[Marie26]

37. Of course you heard it

But do you know any immigrants? It looks like the answer is no. The media will always try to pick the most inflammatory, emotional quote cause it makes people pay attention & gets good ratings. I'm just telling you based on my personal experience w/immigrants, that that POV does not reflect the vast majority of immigrants. They're not trying to "start a culture war," they're mostly just trying to start a new life. That's the "psychology of the issue." Here's another part of the "pyschology of the issue" - getting Americans pissed off at immigrants instead of placing the blame on the exploitative corporations hiring them.

[Dr. Jones]

41. Yes, they are trying to start a new life,

but their minds are not devoid of opinions and beliefs regarding labor and employment! I personally am seeking after their thoughts and beliefs on this matter, and who/what has shaped these thoughts and beliefs.

[Marie26]

44. And I'm telling you that

As someone who speaks fluent Spanish & has worked w/immigrants. But it seems like you don't want to believe me; but would rather believe something you saw on the corporate news.

[Marie26]

75. ...

[LanternWaste]

60. Hmmm...

The illegals I currently work (app. 30) with don't appear to have an attitude like you're implying. Quite the contrary- they, like the legal workers at my place of employment are, for the most part simply trying to exist, raise a family, put food on the table and make their kid's lives better than their own.

But then I'm a bit biased as I subscribe to V. Hugo's POV that borders are just imaginary red and black lines drawn on a map.
"Flags have little to do with breakfast and even less to do with love"

[alcibiades_mystery]

40. Not "as welll"

Tout court. Greedy companies are to blame, period.

[Dr. Jones]

45. They are MOSTLY to blame,

but ultimately, we are responsible for every decision we make.

If I'm hooked on drugs because my life sucks and I can't find work, my circumstances are part of the problem for sure. However, the choice I made to abuse the drugs was ultimately MY choice.

Yes, these people are coming across the border for a better life, but it's THEIR choice to come in the first place. Once they're here, it's the fault of the greedy un-American American companies that hire them and perpetuate this whole thing.

I wonder if strict enforcement on companies who hire illegals would really work. As per the point of this thread, I think you have to first kill the mindset that these illegals are not crossing our borders for a noble cause such as "doing the work Americans won't do;" rather, they're usurping American middle class jobs and removing the traditional cushion for unemployed American middle class workers.

[alcibiades_mystery]

50. One would always have to ask

under what conditions such choices are made. needless to say, I don't take social structures to be absolutely determining (there is choice), but at the same time, merely, and somewhat stupidly, saying "Oh well, they decided to come," elides the vast network of social causes that would make any sense of that decision. There is choice, but what are the choices, and under what conditions did they come to be established as choices, as options through which free will might exercise itself? Of course, it is the craven tendency of people who seek to ignore all social causes to reduce all choice to some non-existent plane of absolute freedom. It's a fucking lie, and no more true simply because you believe it. As it stands, it is the same greed of international capital that reduces the living conditions in such countries to such an extent that people would risk lives, limbs, incarceration - not to mention absence from families and familiar social configurations, alienation, oppression, prejudice and exploitation to come here, where unnamed jackass racist douchebags make silly arguments about how its their fault in the final analysis.

As for American middle class jobs, your living in a world of nostalgia. The only way a living was ever eked out from the greed of capitalist production is through social struggle in solidarity. It is the oldest trick in the book to bring in a new populatrion even to break strikes at a local level. Capitalists always set workers against each other by exacerbating ethnic tensions - no different for the Irish and the Italians and southern and eastern Europeans. It's only remarkable that ostensibly literate people still fall for such nonsenses. The American middle class is not disintegrating because of illegal immigrants. It is disintergrating because it has forgotten the lessons of class struggle, which apparently have to be taught anew for each generation, or at least for this one.

[Dr. Jones]

61. That was a great post.

I take it you aren't too keen on captialism! :)

This is what I LOVE about DU. We may not always agree, but we can have a pleasant, intelligent conversation with so many intelligent, educated people.
:hug:

[Virginia Dare]

52. Look at it this way...

in a sense they are doing jobs that Americans won't do, at least they won't do it for piss-poor wages, no benefits, no vacations, 6 and 7 day work weeks, 12 hour days, no health and safety enforcement etc.. They see this just as well as we do. They are selling themselves short, but people do alot of things out of desperation. I guess American workers just aren't that desperate yet. Give us time.

[Dr. Jones]

63. I think there ARE lots of American workers who are that desperate,

but they are locked out of these "cushion" jobs they've traditionally had because lower-wage illegal labor has taken their places.

[Virginia Dare]

70. Point taken...

I know of a former bricklayer who is now bagging groceries. We are truly being outsourced and insourced.

[Marie26]

76. Attitudes/beliefs

What attitudes/beliefs are you looking for? I have no idea what you're asking for here. It seems like you're looking for thoughts/beliefs to show that immigrants have been "brainwashed" by Vicente Fox into starting a "culture war". And I'm sorry, I can't provide evidence for that theory, since it isn't true. You seem to be spinning out this whole secret immigrant agenda that is not based in reality. Here is the immigrant thought regarding labor & employment: They want jobs. That's it.

[Marie26]

14. Perfect post! nt

[Virginia Dare]

18. Right you are...

but this country was founded and built on the backs of slaves and immigrants, so I guess it's just the good old American way!

I enjoy your posts, Warpy!


:headbang:

[Dr. Jones]

31. Hey listen,

I don't disagree with Warpy's comments. Again, the point of this thread is not to discuss the SOCIOLOGY of this issue, but to get into the heads of illegals and discuss their PSYCHOLOGY. You know - why they're thinking what they're thinking.

[Virginia Dare]

49. Sorry, I didn't mean to bogart your post..

I was referring to recent exchanges I've been a part of with Warpy. Wasn't in reference to your post at all. My bad.

:hi:

[rocktivity]

4. Americans would do those jobs IF THEY PAID ENOUGH

The REAL problem is that businesses DON'T WANT TO hire Americans because they'd have to pay them what they think is TOO MUCH MONEY. That's why this current attempt at immigration "reform" is a crock--true reform would be built around legislation that would PUNISH businesses SEVERELY for hiring illegals. But the Bush monarchy won't let that happen to their corporate buddies. I predict that nothing will come of this "crisis"--even the status quo will continue to allow businesses to exploit these workers.

:headbang:
rocknation

[Dr. Jones]

10. Yes, but you guys are talking about the SOCIOLOGY of illegal immigration.

I'm talking about the PSYCHOLOGY of illegals. I'm trying to get into their head and answer the question of why they believe what they believe - and who told them that Americans so desperately need them because Americans simply don't feel like doing certain jobs.

[rocktivity]

16. What Americans "don't feel like doing" is WORKING FOR SLAVE WAGES.

What American businesses "don't feel like doing" is supressing profit by paying decent wages. And what the Mexican government doesn't "feel like doing" is providing for their desparately poor. The solution? A token border crossing policy in which only a handful get caught, and businesses who are eager to hire for bottom dollar. It's American BUSINESSES who "desparately need" illegal workers. It's not about psychology, sociology, or culture--it's about ECONOMICS.

:headbang:
rocknation

[Dr. Jones]

36. I'm not disagreeing with you at all on this...

it's just that my hope was to discuss why illegals are saying certain things and why they think in their minds that they truly are doing a good thing by usurping the jobs that Americans CAN and DO do. I would like to know where they got this from and why they believe it.

I still believe that the long-term Bush plan is to unite Canada/U.S./Mexico into one huge trading bloc. It would make sense, therefore, for Bush/Fox along with American corporations to con the good citizens of Mexico into believing that those lazy Americans in their wealth don't want to work anymore. Thus they probably conned them into believing they are doing something noble by coming here and usurping our jobs.

Just a thought...:)

[SoCalDem]

20. Probably MOST immigrants come here to "better" their lives

That can take many forms:
better education for their kids
better living conditions
better health care
etc

it could also be the inherent "freedom" to move about
or the freedom to speak out

Probably MOST immigrants are poor and see no future in their country...that alone can make them take big risks for something better (even if they don't know exactly what that is)


There is also a big support-group already in place when they arrive, so once the initial risk is past, they can relax and live a long time in the "underground" economy and possibly remain undetected for decades..or forever..

We would do the same thing if necessary..

Look at how many elders here are looking for "better" places to retire.. Lots look OUTSIDE the US. The only difference is that most of us will not do it illegally (mostly because we don't have to )

[tjwash]

22. They are here because...

...it sucks to be in Mexico. Go down there for a little while and look at the job situation. It is absolutely horrible.

And guess what? We here in the USA are going to be in the exact same boat economy and job-wise in the foreseeable future, that they are in Mexico right now. I live in San Diego, and the maquilladoras are opening up right on the other side of the border just south of here in TJ, and the cheap labor "jobs that no one wants to do" are heading down there as well. Hell, Kyocera just moved a bunch of their cell phone assembly down there. Why pay people 15 bucks an hour with bennies, when you can transport it logistically down the street, and pay the equivalent of 8 an hour with no bennies.

So don't be too hard on "illegals" just because we have gotten fat and complacent the past sixty years or so, due to the complete excess that we have gotten used to, and come to regard as our birthright. Someday soon, it's going to be us that is going to be referred to in the same vein.

[raccoon]

34. Right on, tjwash! That's what's going to happen to the US. nt

[justice1]

29. I would say it's Darwinism at work

My friend was part of a church group that went to central Mexico to build housing. They constructed something like a 12" x12" room, for a widow and her kids. The woman was brought to tears at the thought of having something so nice.

The church group also brought clothes to a dump, for families living there.

It's a hell of a predicament that we're in, with no easy solution.

I wish the Mexicans, would gather in the streets of Mexico the way they did here. It's the corruption by their own government that keeps the people repressed.

You have to admit though, President Fox has a great PR firm. He has managed to convince his citizens that the U.S. is the culprit, while he encourages his own people to essentially risk their lives to send back money to his government.

His economic policy is akin to the communist regimes. Send the impoverished people to battle, and either end up with the spoils of war, or less mouths to feed.

By the way, does he ever attend the funerals of the people that die trying to cross the border?

[Bridget Burke]

32. Mexicans DO gather in the streets of Mexico....

Do you follow Mexican politics? Do you know anything about Mexican history?

[Virginia Dare]

55. The only way you are going to "get into their heads"...

is to go out into the Mexican countryside and study the sociology of the people living there. You might have some insight then. It does no good for us to sit behind our computers in our comfy homes and offices debating this issue. Just my 2 cents.

;-)

[mzteris]

7. I was in HR for a mfg firm

pretty decent wages, fairly good benefits. Three shifts a day. It was hot, dirty, repetitive, and noisy on the floor.

The applicant pool?

Primarily hispanic, African American, and other immigrants (Vietnamese, etc.). We rarely even had Caucasian applicants. (And yes, we advertised in the general newspaper, etc.) And what few Caucasians did apply were usually applying for the more specialized jobs - Machine Technician, QC, etc. Sadly what few Caucasians did apply for the mfg jobs were nearly always unemployable due to poor work history/record/references.

[Dr. Jones]

11. Wait - are you saying some Caucasians were unemployable

due to work history/record/references, yet saying that it was perfrectly okay to hire lower-paid ILLEGAL immigrants to do these jobs? Do you see the irony in this? They're here ILLEGALLY!

One thing you cannot escape. The jobs that have traditionally hired Americans - jobs such as construction, agriculture, truck driving, and factory work - are now hiring illegal immigrants. These are NOT jobs Americans "WILL NOT DO," these are jobs in which Americans have done for a long time but are being PUSHED OUT due to the lower wages and fewer demands of illegals.

[mzteris]

12. No, we didn't hire illegals

to our knowledge.. they all had their paperwork - LPR or "green cards" SSN or work permit - and yes, I checked.

I was SAYING - that few whites WANTED to do the type of work we were hiring FOR. Except those who couldn't get a job anywhere else anyways.

[Dr. Jones]

21. There...you said it...bingo.

I was SAYING - that few whites WANTED to do the type of work we were hiring FOR. Except those who couldn't get a job anywhere else anyways.

This is really the crux of it. Americans have been working in construction, agriculture, trucking, and factories for YEARS now. But these industries have also provided a valuable cushion for the middle-class: You knew if you were laid off, you could always find work in one of these AMERICAN industries.

But now, these industries have been overrun by lower-paid illegals, and thus desperate-for-work Americans, who WOULD do these jobs if they could, are now LOCKED OUT. They no longer have this cushion because a cheaper, non-American workforce is already in place. So in times of trouble, well, the American middle class is now up a raging river without a paddle if they face hard times. And I don't think that's fair to anyone.

[mzteris]

46. No that's NOT what I said -

I said that few whites were willing to DO THAT KIND OF HARD WORK - except for those who couldn't pay anyone to hire them due to their drug addictions, DUI's, criminal records, or string of jobs that lasted anywhere from a few days to a few months that they just "quit" because or they "got fired" because (and OF COURSE it was NEVER their fault. - come to think of it - they usually whined about those no good minorities who took their good jobs, too.)

[RaleighNCDUer]

26. What do you call "fairly decent pay"?

And what is the company's location?

The good benefits and "fairly good pay" I get with the state ensures that I work a second job just to pay for my car. Actually, my pay is lousy, about $28K, and living in downtown Raleigh all I can afford is a 1 bedroom apt.

With the same pay, if I lived in, say, Louisburg, where my mom lives I'd be pretty comfortable and wouldn't need a second job.

The simple fact is, minorities have fewer choices and fewer opportunities. There are a lot of factors that may influence your applicant pool. Perhaps this business is in a part of town that whites avoid. Perhaps your company is a decent place that honestly evaluates its applicants, unlike some places that shuffle applications with names like Enrique and Shaniqau to the bottom -- those places, naturally, have higher rates of white employment, leaving fewer white applicants for your place of business.

Maybe it isn't the TYPE of work, but the convenience, the location, the pay that are deciding factors.

[mzteris]

53. to answer

It wasn't GREAT pay, of course - at the time (and this was a few years ago. I, myself, was laid-off in 2002.....) If I'm remembering correctly (and I could be off a bit) to start it was something like $8.25 an hour, with a .25/hr raise after 90 days. There was a shift differential for 2nd & 3rd shifts. A good bit of overtime at 1-1/2. Yearly increases, and oppty to cross-train and increase your pay rate. The more machines you could run (and the more complicated/difficult) - the more you could earn per hour.

**And what is the company's location?**

Raleigh

**The good benefits and "fairly good pay" I get with the state ensures that I work a second job just to pay for my car. Actually, my pay is lousy, about $28K, and living in downtown Raleigh all I can afford is a 1 bedroom apt.

With the same pay, if I lived in, say, Louisburg, where my mom lives I'd be pretty comfortable and wouldn't need a second job.**

The cost of living in Raleigh is quite high.

**The simple fact is, minorities have fewer choices and fewer opportunities. **

Oh absolutely.

"Perhaps this business is in a part of town that whites avoid. "

No - not at all. Just off the beltline off Capital. It was on the busline, too.

**Perhaps your company is a decent place that honestly evaluates its applicants, unlike some places that shuffle applications with names like Enrique and Shaniqau to the bottom -- those places, naturally, have higher rates of white employment, leaving fewer white applicants for your place of business.***

The sad thing was - is the "bigoted behaviour" of whites towards minorities started being manifested in the AA's against the hispanics and other immigrants. AA's were getting the LEAD jobs and Supervisor jobs (generally due to reading/writing/communicating/training/and length of service) - and promptly started to act like the privileged "class". Charges of favoritism due to "race" was just as common. :(

**Maybe it isn't the TYPE of work, but the convenience, the location, the pay that are deciding factors.**

I'm thinking it was the TYPE of work.

Before I was with the mfg firm, I hired delivery truck drivers for another company for about 5 years. In Durham and in two outlying towns - one southish of Durham and one northish of Durham. In the two outlying areas - where there were a preponderance of Caucasian farmboy types - we had more white drivers and applicants. They were used to working hard and working outside. They didn't WANT the "factory jobs" working inside. It would drive them crazy.

In Durham, we had more AA employees (this was before the huge influx of hispanics in the area so I can't speak to that minority in this industry.) It was definitely VERY HARD WORK, and most of the white applicants I got in Durham, after hearing the job description, decided they weren't interested. They'd rather go out to RTP and work in an assembly line job in a clean industry.


Education has a LOT to do with what jobs you can apply FOR - as does communication skills.

Before that firm I worked with a placement agency (temp and permanent) across the spectrum of employers. Industrial to executive and everything in between.

[RaleighNCDUer]

57. Thanks for the clarifications.

:hi:

[LoneDriver]

25. Ditto

For several years I hired taxi drivers in a major city. Long hours, low status work but good pay if they worked hard. They had to be legal, it was checked by the licensing agencies. Very easy minimum requirements, over 21, no DUI's not too bad a criminal and driving record, etc.

We ran classified ads in LAT and Daily News so it was not a secret. This period included some hard times like Reagan's recession.

Applicants were from all over, and I mean ALL over the world. Perhaps 1 in 500 was not an immigrant,

It sure left me with the impression that there were jobs that Americans would not do.

[RaleighNCDUer]

28. Maybe the immigrants weren't aware that driving a cab is one

of the most dangerous professions in the country?

[LoneDriver]

43. What does that have to do with anything?

Much of this debate mentions agricultural, constuction and the like jobs being taken back by non-immigrants. Do you think those jobs are not dangerous?

[justice1]

15. Americans won't do the work in New Orleans? huh

My mom called me about a week ago and told me about my stepfathers situation. He was part of a crew of workers removing hazardous waste in New Orleans,they were told to leave with 1 days notice. The reason given, the jobs were going to go to locals, which he didn't have a problem with. Later that day, it was announced that it was the big Bush contributors that received the extended contracts.

A search of the "open secrets" website didn't list any political contributions by the company or owners, of the firm who hired him. I told him "That's probably why you are now unemployed".

[Dr. Jones]

17. That all sounds fishy.

And from what I've heard, the "Big Bush contributers" (Halliburton amongst them) instead hire out - you guessed it - ILLEGALS to do the work at FAR LESS of a cost.

That reminds me, there was a statute that Bush waived during Katrina that actually allowed these companies to ignore laws stating that workers be paid fair wages. This gave them the green light to basically hire illegals and toss the locals out on their asses.

It really did BURN ME UP when I heard this on the radio this morning. I could not BELIEVE anybody would say that.

Welcome to DU, Justice! :)

[TheBaldyMan]

19. compare this to present day Germany & lots of E. Europeans

the Poles and Russians do not go to Germany for the high wages and excellent conditions. They go there and under cut German workers. Personally I'd live and work in Germany but I wouldn't go there to work as hard as a German worker for half the pay, I'd expect equal pay, status and conditions.

Similarly in Britain lots of illegals from Asia, Europe and elsewhere are royally ripped off by greedy bosses. Agricultural 'contractors' pay starvation wages and the alternative is being turned over to immigration control, debt-bondage is rife, not being paid for a full days work is nothing short of slavery and is a regular practice.

I have no problem with any immigrants illegal or legal, if anything I'd recommend extending full workers rights, protections and conditions to illegal workers.

For me it's not about law it's about treating people like human beings not beasts of burden.

[SeattleRob]

23. Wake up! It's all about divide and conquer!

The captains of industry and the ruling elites use issues like immigration to divide and conquer the working people in this country. While people go on about illegal immigrants stealing our jobs, the ruling class robs us blind with corporate welfare handouts and huge tax breaks.

[cascadiance]

33. Don't take the bait! And ask them not to either!

The corporations, the corporate media, our government and the Mexican government all want to build a war between our two labor forces that will incite racism, etc. which they will blame for the problems, instead of the real problem, which is the race to the bottom for corporate labor, and the non-goverrnance of these governments in the process in their efforts to help corporate cronies on both sides of the border.

What's really needed is a global labor movement, which they should be a part of, where we look to pressure Fox in Mexico to raise working and living standards in Mexico, so that they can feel good about living and working in their own country, instead of following Fox's wishes of "leaching" off of our economy so he and his rich cronies can fatten themselves on the stuff they don't want to share with most Mexicans.

Force NAFTA/CAFTA/GATT and WTO to be shelved or to recognize that global standards for fair labor practices need to be as much a part of those treaties/organizations as "free trade" is now.

Until that happens, go after those that hire illegals and dry up the demand so that we don't have to spend tons of cash on walled borders and border guards that will serve just to build hostility rather than our economy.

[Dr. Jones]

48. Great post -

well thought out and provocative. Thanks.

I guess when it comes down to it, Fox/Bush don't WANT Mexico's living standards to be improved. For Bush, it's too good of a slave labor pool. For Fox, it's more $$$ coming into Mexico from illegal workers sending money home, but not quite enough to substantially raise living standards.

[Bridget Burke]

35. The Republicans LOVE culture war.

And they've got helpers--even at DU.

[Dr. Jones]

54. But how can that be when they are knowingly LOSING this culture war?

One poster above said they're trying to gain Repub seats, but at this point it's obviously backlashing on them. So why would they push for a culture war when they KNOW they are losing and will LOSE big time come November?

[Bridget Burke]

67. Well, if the Republicans are losing this culture war....

No surrender!

[underpants]

38. Racism

The knife statement is nothing but racism.

Also I think we shouldn't discount the animosity betweens Latinos and blacks. Latinos famously don't like blacks very much at all. That would do something explaining on the New Orleans comment.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

65. "Latinos famously don't like blacks very much at all."

What kind of bullshit statement is this?

The man that made the racist comment speaks for himself and himself alone. He is not the face of the Latino population.

[alcibiades_mystery]

39. Ay yay yay

"She recalled that if an American dares stand alongside them for work, the American gets beat up and even knifed!"

The utterly stupid form of this statement says all you need to know about the content. What trash.

You have no reason to doubt her? How about this: the statement is completely fucking absurd. That used to be a reason to doubt people's statements before every fucking issue was decided ahead of time by imbeciles with half-knowledge.

[earth mom]

47. It was PURE EVIL of * to push the meme that Illegals are doing the jobs

that Americans workers won't do. It's utter b.s though the good thing that came out of it is that * got a helluva lot of rethugs pissed off with him.

So now it sounds like illegal aliens are picking up the meme, though I haven't heard it myself. From a psychological standpoint, I'd say it's a way for them to justify what they are doing. Which is just human nature, even though it's 100% wrong. Not to mention as insulting as hell to all the hard working people who are legally in this country and are just trying to support their families and put food on the table themselves.

The thing is-Everyone is in the same damn boat-exploited by the Greedy Rethuglican Corporate & Business Whores.

:grr:

[Dr. Jones]

51. THANK YOU!! I agree.

:hug:

FINALLY, finally somebody actually caught onto what I put forth in the OP. I thought about that too, that they know what's going on and their role in it, but they are simply trying to justify it via some kind of false noble cause.

[earth mom]

59. Glad I could help.

:hug:

There is nothing noble in greedily feeding off of other peoples misery-no matter who.

[Virginia Dare]

56. Which is what concerns me about the protests...

this is a classic case of divide and conquer.

[cascadiance]

58. Tell them they'd get more support SIMULTANEOUSLY protesting Fox's palace!

If they were to protest as much in Mexico demanding better jobs and pay, etc. there, then I think many more Americans would appreciate their situation better. By just protesting here, their voices are falling on deaf ears when it appears that they are just demanding jobs and living here that they aren't entitled to as illegal immigrants. If it can be shown that they are trying just as hard to fix their situation there, then they might get more help from us in trying to fix the situation down there too, so that we can ALL have good and decent paying jobs in OUR OWN countries!

[Dr. Jones]

64. Yes, but when it comes down to it,

it appears they don't WANT Mexico's economy to improve. I sense a sort of evil symbiotic relationship between Fox and Bush. Bush needs desperate Mexicans to cross the border illegally and get hired by an assanine American company who pays the workers next to nothing. Fox needs the money illegals send back into Mexico, which isn't quite enough to raise their standard of living. It's at a low simmer until one day...BAM.

[cascadiance]

71. Fox might not want it, but Mexicans should!

[Bridget Burke]

69. Please look at this picture of Mexico City, taken last year.

I've posted it at least 3 times in the last week.



Here's the story behind it: www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7623969/

Mexican history & Mexican politics are worthy studying. Ignorance is worth nada.

[cascadiance]

73. That's why I noted it should be simultaneous...

Because I think that the protest of their government needs to be connected to their protests of immigration here. They should in effect be saying through coordinated protests that:

1) We want decent jobs and a way of life in Mexico. We need a new government!
2) America, this is why we are here working and living in your country. We don't have any choice but to do so because of our leaders' inability to have our government provide adequate jobs, etc. in our country.

That would gain more sympathy. If it can be visible to Americans that Mexicans would like to first get their jobs fixed in their country, and that they are only coming over here (which they'd like us to not turn our backs on them for) to survive with jobs that pay here that aren't provided through their government and economy now.

It would be a sign that the populace really just wants a better standard of living, and wants to work at solving their own problems first, instead of trying to find an "easy way out", without really caring about trying to build up their economy, by coming up here expecting to get work at our expense.

I WOULD support more joint efforts to coordinate global labor movements to help with people's labor conditions everywhere, so the race to the bottom is less "rewarding" for multinationals.

[Bridget Burke]

74. Too bad that Americans can't "connect the dots"....

Anyone who has read a bit about Mexico would know that their struggles are ongoing. They didn't begin under Fox.

The people in the picture were marching in support of the leading candidate in the upcoming presidential election. He's to the left of Fox & has some good ideas.

Of course, even Fox presented a plan to Bush at their first meeting. He wanted some kind of guest worker program & also offered to create ways to convince Mexicans to come back home. Bush let the proposal die--no input, no nothing.

[cascadiance]

77. Oh, I know it's an old problem too...

We've had "economic hitmen" (as Jack Perkins would call them) helping us to "own" economies in South America throughout this century (though that is fading now with the likes of Chavez and others that are rising to power now).

I guess I'm saying that it's usually the job of the person that's the salesman to try and get someone to buy something if others aren't interested in his product and pounding on the door. It is the Mexicans and others from down south that are wanting to have access to our labor markets up here, and are trying to demonstrate for their rights to do so (or plea for our help for them to get better wages, etc.). It's kind of up to them to HELP us connect the dots.

Not everyone from here is going to watch every protest down there. But if they are connected in some more obvious ways to their protests up here, then it would have Americans more interested in seeing their concerns with their government. The way it is now, it looks to many that a lot of folks are just coming over the border here and just want to "get" what they think is available to them. I know that's kind of a unfeeling way to think about it, and it isn't an attitude that I necessarily hold, but that's the way a lot of Americans feel about it. They aren't trying to appeal to the masses of Americans on how their struggle is our struggle. They don't appear to be as interested to some in finding a solution that works for both American laborers and Mexican laborers from a pragmatic standpoint that would get a lot more people on their side. They probably never can appeal to the racist elements over here. That is a lost cause. But they can appeal to those that do want better global labor standards to help keep the outsourcing from happening and get themselves paid better at the same time. They need to work more on that approach rather than just say "We do jobs that Americans won't do". That's an insult to both our labor forces.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

62. Yep. Those durn foreigners are coming here demanding low wages.

They just love emptying bedpans, scrubbing toilets, and mopping floors. How dare they complain about being abused, slandered, and accused of stealing jobs?!!

Of course, it could be because they're poor and desperate. Naaahhh! They're part of an evil conspiracy and making big bucks on the sly posing as poor people.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

66. No, they're just poor desperate people.

And poor desperate people who know they are breaking the law, whether it be for a good reason or not, will try to rationalize it in their heads to make it acceptable. You are reading way too much into this.

[On the Road]

68. They're Not Trying to Start a War,

they're just defending their own actions. Cognitive dissonance. It's a similar mentality to replacement workers in a strike, especially if they're from a remote area: "these union guys don't want to work and demand twice as much as they're worth. I'll gladly do the job for a reasonable wage." They are able to think this because their standards are different.

It's possible that illegal aliens DO create more jobs than they take. In general, America has absorbed immigrants much more successfully than Europe. Problem is, most of those jobs are just as poorly paid as the ones the illegals take. It's not the number of jobs -- there are plenty of jobs in this country -- it's how they're compensated.

[slide to the left]

72. Maybe Bushie

is trying to start a civil war here