Who The FUCK Are YOU To Want To Deny Someone A Better Life?

[matcom]

i wasn't going to ge into this but i'm sick as fuck lately with what i am seeing here.

"Liberals"

if/when things get so fucked up in this country you can't take it anymore, MANY of you/us/me/we will/would leave for 'greener pastures' (Europe, The Caribbean, wherethefuckever).

you/me/we TALK about it all the time.

WE/YOU/ME have the MEANS to do so (in MANY cases)

is it FASCISM YET? well, we all have our individual thresholds THAT is for sure.

yet, when things get bad for the 'brown people' they become a burden. an "illegal". an "alien".

THEY take OUR jobs and WE (some anyway) threaten to take a EUROPEAN'S job just about every day. but THAT is OK somehow. more than a few of "US" have headed for Canada. so, WE take THEIR jobs and nobody says a word (not EVEN most Canadians).

you, with MEANS, have a legitimate RIGHT (in your minds) to go overseas to find a life more suited to your needs/beliefs/tastes. yet YOU want to DENY the rights of those who are less fortunate for wanted THE SAME DAMNED THING by coming here.

YOU would turn them away because they are "ILLEGAL". yet MANY of them do not HAVE THE FINANCIAL MEANS TO MAKE THEMSELVES "LEGAL"

you cite an invisible, man-made line in the sand and the lack of a piece of dead tree as your basis for EXCLUSION.

all they want is a better life. YOU want to deny them that basic right. you use talking points you hear on your idiot boxes and think you are 'above' them. "THEY BROKE THE LAW!" you scream. Hell, if *I* were dealt such an unfair hand i'd do it too. AND SO WOULD YOU.

they want what YOU want. a better life. a decent life. nothing more, nothing less. i'm all for fixing the problem. problem is, many of you can't recognize where the REAL problems lie because you are totally out of touch.

that makes me sad.

[XemaSab]

1. .

[matcom]

2. fuck that

i'm outta here.

hold the butter

[oasis]

77. "But for the grace of God, there go I" DUers vs. "ownership society" DUers

That's what it's become.

[QC]

223. Or working-class DUers vs. credentialed professional DUers.

There's a definite class breakdown on this issue.

[Marie26]

247. Not always

I'm from a working-class background, & am pretty pro-immigration. And there are many professionals who are adamantly opposed to immigrants. There's a definte breakdown, such that one side cannot even understand the other, but I'm still trying to figure out exactly where that breakdown occurs. It does make for a lot of :popcorn: though.

[Tigress DEM]

252. Don't forget to factor in the freepers.

I hope we aren't really as "divided" as it may seem. Even those who post rashly on DU (if they aren't freepers) may look back at responses they get and think about it. Part of the dynamic of this kind of political discussion is to discuss and that entails not only squawking, but listening to feedback as well.

Being liberals of one stripe or another, many of us may still have societal baggage we need to unload. Intelligent people weigh the merit of opposing perspectives and occasionally alter previous opinions. Especially when one realizes core values are more in line with a new viewpoint.

I still think by and large even if we have different opinions on this, a solution can come from being open to both sides of the issue and trying to arrive at a win-win solution because the border is really only an imaginary line. We still live right next door and a lot of Mexico is desert. You can't eat oil.

[im10ashus]

72. I'm late to this party.

But mind if I join you?

:popcorn:

I brought a six pack.

:beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer:

[meganmonkey]

3. Right on, man

It is that simple, really.

Humanity. That's all.

Peace!!!

[Siyahamba]

205. Awesome!

:pals:

[meganmonkey]

284. Hey there!

Haven't seen you in awhile! :hug:

Hope life is going well for you!

[leftstreet]

4. "many of you can't recognize where the REAL problems lie "

So what's the real problem?

[matcom]

6. the lack of resources in their own country

with MUCH thanks to OUR dominance down there. travel down there ( I have for 7 years) and come back and tell me they have the same opportunites.

BTW, MUCH of the 'THANKS' goes to AMERICAN corporations :eyes:

[pitohui]

14. mexico does not lack resources

i'm sorry, mexico is a giant as far as petroleum and mineral resources, look at a map sometime

they don't lack resources in the slightest, they have more billionaires than the usa, what they lack is a social safety net and they have decided as a matter of policy that the usa tax payer should pick up the tab even though many areas of usa (think mississippi!) have almost zero natural resources compared to mexico


i am not allowed to take a job in mexico, nor because of my age am i allowed to take a job in canada, i say again, open borders have to go both ways

they don't and they won't

this is abt creating a new slave class for GOP who don't want to pay their maids and lawn care guys a fair price, so why are so many on this board standing up and making the GOP pro-cheap labor argument?

no true progressive abandons his roots in the working class

unfortunately i'm starting to see we've got a lot of faux progressives on the internets

[rzemanfl]

23. The Repukes would like the U.S. to be more like Mexico. If they

eliminate the middle class then they can all be "Dons." In the Spanish or Mafia sense, take your pick.

[pitohui]

37. absolute this is the GOP plan

and apparently some "progressives" have forgotten their roots and are happy to buy into it

:-(

[Cobalt Violet]

48. And that's just the way Big Business wants it.

They will get everything they want. We will continue to see our standard of living die.

[Deja Q]

293. Very true.

To support Bush on this is insane and is detrimental to the very way of life immigrants thnk they're going to get by coming here!!

Never mind my usual responses...

(Why did Don Quixote just pop into my mind?)

[Cobalt Violet]

46. * just said we have to harmonize US and Mexican domestic and forieng...

Policies. :scared:

[Inland]

79. A large, cheap, and politically powerless labor pool

is what they want. What better than illegal aliens, and barring that, "guest workers"?

[AllieB]

39. Mexico is a land of Haves and Have Nots

those natural resources that you talk about are concentrated in the hands of very few-even fewer than here.

[rzemanfl]

57. We are a country of haves and won't have for much longers. n/t

[Tigress DEM]

238. My dad always said that the middle class was what holds America together.

He said that when the middle class goes, the rest of US are goners too.

The middle class was collectively wealthy enough and outspoken enough at one time to actually make an impact.

When 1% of the population holds over 50% of the money, that collective barganing power is gone.

The middle class has never been wealthy enough to fully insulate from the woes of the poor. So because they see it, because they live close enough (sometimes only a paycheck or two away) to understand it, they spoke up on behalf of those who needed a hand up out of the muck.

I'm not sure of which conversations specifically the OP is referring to, but it seems to me that one could wish to leave the US in the same way as people left Nazi Germany in order to live to fight another day. It's hard sometimes to know what is right. At the same time, I don't think everyone who considers leaving the US is critical of imigrants coming here. I know I'm not.

**** Warning :rant: ahead *****

I think they are the least of our worries at this time. A smoke screen to get laws in place so they can start using those detention centers they have been building.

I'm not a coward, but I still wonder if martial law were imposed and dissidents rounded up how effective we could be from inside a fence?

Why is it that the FBI spends any of its time censuring Quakers and Peace Activists for having negative opinions in a free speech society and very little time tracking Osama for "can't find his ass with both hands" Mc Chimpy?



RANT OVER. Sorry.

[Tigress DEM]

254. Oil and Rocks do not feed a nation.

I would prefer a better solution than letting "rich corporations" and unscrupulous rethugs get away with treating illegals no better than pimps treat prostitutes, but it is the CORRUPTION in both countries that is really causing the problem.

The uber rich people are primarily individuals who make money off the backs of other people's labor. And in both our countries much progress needs to be made. US has backslid on our committment to fair labor practises and this administration is responsible for a lot of it.

We could lead by example. We could make better laws. We could find ways to help Mexico make itself more attractive for it's people. We could make our own billionaires be accountable for their crimes against the people and encourage/support Mexico to do the same. We could actually support grass roots Democratically elected leaders instead of replacing them with totalitarian regimes. Now there's a concept!

[leftstreet]

40. Global Corporations Suck

Updated: 10:04 p.m. ET April 24, 2005

MEXICO CITY - Hundreds of thousands of demonstrators thronged Mexico City’s central square and surrounding streets on Sunday to protest the federal prosecution of the capital city mayor, a leading contender for president in 2006.

Their mouths covered with white masks, protesters in the so-called “March of Silence” filled 12 lanes of the Paseo de La Reforma in columns that stretched for several miles in a demonstration of support for Mayor Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador.

They carried signs with the words, “Lopez Obrador, we are with you” and said the legal case against the mayor is testing their faith in Mexico’s government.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7623969/

[anitar1]

126. About time they are losing faith in their government.

Between the totalitarian regimes they have lived under and the weight of the Catholic Church maybe they are waking up. There is no doubt in mind that most of the immigrants would go home, if they had a decent government. Now, can we look forward to crossing the border into Mexico one day, seeking asylum, if the peasants take over Mexico ? They have been crushed by corruption.

[leftstreet]

244. Lopez Obrador

Business, diplomats wary of Lopez Obrador
Fri, Mar. 31, 2006
By Jay Root
Knight Ridder Newspapers

MEXICO CITY - Some diplomats and businessmen are spooked by the possibility that former Mexico City Mayor Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador will become Mexico's next president.

But with three months to go before the election, most admit that they have little hard information on how an administration led by the tough-talking leftist would affect Mexico's attitude toward business and foreign investment.

In a country where the average wage is less than $2 an hour and millions have moved to the U.S. in search of better jobs, Lopez Obrador's populist message has been a winner. The 52-year-old widower has led opinion polls for more than two years. A Mitofsky poll conducted this week for the Televisa news network showed him leading with 37.5 percent, compared with 30.6 percent for Felipe Calderon, the candidate for President Vicente Fox's National Action Party (PAN in its Spanish initials), and 28.8 percent for Roberto Madrazo of the once-dominant Institutional Revolution Party (PRI).

His harshest critics have likened Lopez Obrador to Hugo Chavez, the Venezuelan president, who likes to call President Bush a "donkey" and "Mr. Danger."

Lopez Obrador aides laugh off the comparison and say the only people who should worry are corrupt politicians and their special-interest backers.

<snip>
Lopez Obrador promises to return Mexico to a strict nonintervention stance - a slap at Fox's alliance with the United States over human rights in Cuba - and says he wants to pull out of a free-trade provision that would let American corn and beans flow into Mexico duty-free by 2008.

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/world/14234210.htm

[Tigress DEM]

251. Ever see "The Day After Tomorrow?"

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0319262


Most hilarious scene for me was when global warming snapped and became instant ice age and Mexico was stopping imigrants trying to go SOUTH of the border.

[rman]

270. They lack fair wages and workers' rights even more then we do

(indeed with much thanks to US dominance over there).
That's why they migrate.

[tirechewer]

277. And they have to take....

some terrible risks to find work at all. In several different places near my neighborhood there are "casual labor" stations where men wait to be picked up for jobs.

They have to get into the cars with strangers who could be anyone, they usually do heavy, menial work and get underpaid with no one to complain to. They are not compensated in any way for on the job injuries and have no recourse if they are undocumented workers.

They have no way to pay for medical care, and some are afraid to seek it when they get sick. They live in terrible conditions in housing most of us would not even want to walk into for the opportunity to be here and have a chance at a better life, or maybe just to keep themselves alive. It depends on where they come from.

Immigration fees are stiff. There are quotas. You have to pay a lawyer to get anything done, and even then its a crap shoot. Compared to the average illegal alien, I have so much, and I am not rich. How in good conscience could I begrudge them a place to live and a livelihood.

To all of you who say they are "taking away" American jobs, tell me when the last time was that you broke concrete with a sledge hammer in 100 degree heat, or cut down a tree without proper tools while the man who picked you up on the corner stood around with his thumb up his butt. How many of you ever stood in sewage digging a trench so that the well paid plumber could put in the pipes without getting his clothes messy while he charged the owner of the pipes a small fortune which he did not share with the people who did the real work?

How many of you would stand on a corner selling fruit to feed your family when you couldn't find any other job? C'mon people, give the immigrants a break. This is a country of immigrants. At some point all of our ancestors came here this way unless we are Native Americans. Why be so hateful to people who simply want to make a good life where they feel safe?

[LSK]

7. the GOP isnt doing well so they need this distraction issue

THATS THE REAL PROBLEM.

[rzemanfl]

63. You are so right. I called this a "fucking Rovian wedge issue"

here a few nights ago and allowed myself to get sucked into this thread to the point that a mod deleted a response to one of my posts. NO MORE. ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION CAN WAIT UNTIL WE GET RID OF OUR ILLEGAL GOVERNMENT AND END ITS ILLEGAL WAR.

[Tigress DEM]

250. So how can we give Rove his wedgie back?

I agree.

"ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION CAN WAIT UNTIL WE GET RID OF OUR ILLEGAL GOVERNMENT AND END ITS ILLEGAL WAR."

[Tigress DEM]

248. Rich Elite getting away with Murder in the US and with US agreement ...

Because the US has been taken over by an administration that has zero integrity or values, the job that the US did in the world of helping make things better, being the land of opportunity and doing our best to balance that for immigrants and residents alike (because it was the right thing to do) has gone undone.

This administration is not just trying to drown government in a bathtub, it is trying to create a slave class out of the lower 99% of the population so that 1% can live it up and pass whatever is left of the scorched polluted earth to their inbred progeny.

The REAL problem is that people like *ush have no clue what it means to live in this world without the protection of their money. Their conscience isn't even ruffled by deaths that they cause because they refuse to fill their beautiful minds with anything but pretty little thoughts.

The REAL world isn't always pretty and the type of people WE need to handle that little reality can't get elected with these evil smurfs controlling the voting apparatti and using their power to decimate the Democratic population by killing off the poor and finding ways to make having a dissident opinion a "threat to the country".

(edited for spelling)

[LSK]

5. you took the words right out of my mouth

ITS JUST A FUCKING PIECE OF PAPER AND AN INVISIBLE LINE. America is the land of immigrants. Did the Pilgrims need PAPERFUCKINGWORK to be declared legal???? Maybe Thomas Jefferson and George Washington are illegal immigrants too. SHIT, THIS IS THE FUCKING INDIANS LANDS, WE ARE ALL ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS!!!

THIS IS THE BEST POST OF THE WHOLE WEEK!!!

AWESOME!!!!!!!!

[Name removed]

8. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[terryg11]

9. I'm with you there

they should be allowed to better themselves but my main problem is with the companies that hire "illegals" because they can pay them less than market value and dont have to give them any benefits. Here in IOwa there are a few huge meat packing companies that rely heavily on immigrant workers. I'm glad to see them making a better life for themselves but inadvertently suppressing wages isnt a good thing. THEY SHOULD BE PAID AS WELL AS THE NEXT AMERICAN FOR WHAT THEY DO.

[Hello_Kitty]

240. I totally agree

A friend of mine who worked at a 'big box' store on the overnight shift to make a few extra bucks told me that he observed that the illegals were routed to putting items on the shelves because, according to the managers, they were much faster at getting the job done. We are benefitting from their labor. Therefore, we should pay them what they are due.

[Quakerfriend]

10. All human beings have a right to a better life but, they need

to get that from their country. My husband and his large extended family came here from Colombia in the 1950s and they have made a wonderful life here. Lived the American dream.

But, NOW I honestly feel that we need to prevent a massive influx of people from countries that don't care for their own people in order to protect our country. The land and resources are disapearing at alarming rates. We must protect our country for those who are here legally.

[Thtwudbeme]

91. I am shocked that with a screenname like that, you would deny your

own heritage so rapidly.

Or maybe not; Nixon was a Quaker too, wasn't he.

[Hutzpa]

212. This is the kind of shit that gets underneath my

skin.....your husband and yourself came here from Colombia awhile back to live the American dream, now that you've made it, others are not allowed, @##@@#@# my question to you is this, what is wrong with others doing the same thing you and your husband did, that is complete selfishness if you asked me, I suppose they're not humans like you so they should just fall down and die...right!


@@##$%$%&&


:wtf:

[file83]

11. Why don't Mexicans make life better in Mexico?

:shrug:

I'm not saying they don't have they right to pursue a better life...I'm just saying they don't have the LEGAL right to ignore U.S. National Sovereignty and U.S. immigration LAW in that pursuit.

I'm just wondering, if they are so eager to change this countries laws, why don't they use that energy to change Mexico's economy?

[LSK]

12. why dont Americans make life better in America??

Oh yeah SHITTY LEADERSHIP....

[file83]

19. We ARE makeing life better here - and we battle OUR leaders all the time..

So, again, since Mexicans are such "hard workers", then why don't they WORK at battling the leaders of the country they so proudly wave the flag of? That's THEIR responsibility, not America's.

[RagingInMiami]

264. It's a fucking class system in Mexico that keeps them repressed!

[arcos]

15. Working at a WalMart, and making not $5, but $1? nt

[file83]

21. Yes, that sucks, but why do you think that is happening???

(here's a hint: wages are being driven down by _________.) Fill in the blank.

[LSK]

25. Cheap labor conservatives

[file83]

29. So, are you against the "free market", or "illegal immigrants"?

Careful how you answer...

[LSK]

33. i am against CEOs laying off thousands so they can have a raise

Theres enough money in the world, but a select few wish to have it all.

[file83]

60. Yet you think it's okay to give away U.S. jobs to illegal immigrants?

So CEO's taking money away, bad (I agree) - and giving away U.S. jobs to NON-American citizens, good (I disagree).

Anyway, 1 out of 2 ain't bad.

[LSK]

64. what jobs???

Americans dont want those below minimum wage jobs.

[file83]

89. Using Bush's own talking points, are you?

Hmm...:eyes:

Let's see, where do I start?

Would you do the same work you do now, for below minimum wage? Of course you wouldn't. You couldn't afford to. But just because you wouldn't do that job for shit wages doesn't mean you hate doing it. It just means you couldn't afford to.

So, if picking strawberries is a job that pays below minimum wage, are Americans going to do that job? Of course not. But if it paid $12.00/hour, there are many that might consider it.

Furthermore, if someone thinks it's "cool" to pay people shit wages just so you can have cheap strawberries, they're sick. Talk about elitism.

[LSK]

109. so maybe companies should pay $12 to pick strawberries

But they would rather pay $1 to pick strawberries so they can have a fatter bottom line. I dont blame the illegals for Corporate business decisions and Wall Streets love of profits. They just want to move out of the mud hut the live in in Mexico.

[file83]

150. So does half the world population, but does that mean it's a good idea to

just let them come in and give away all our low skill jobs?

[LSK]

154. so AGAIN why are letting Corporations hire them???

Why are we letting Corporations lower EVERYONES wages except the CEOs?

[file83]

195. Because the PEOPLE aren't putting enough pressure on the Gov't

to enforce the already existing laws.

[Cobalt Violet]

174. There aren't suppose to be below minimum wage jobs.

That's illegal.

[mac56]

194. "That's illegal."

errr...........so is hiring undocumented workers?

[Cobalt Violet]

216. And so is using someone elses SS number.

[Tigress DEM]

243. There IS a legal exception.

It USED to be that teens, from 15 1/2 to 17ish would take these jobs for a different minimum wage that was set for their age group. The reasoning being that 1) as minors they had their basic needs taken care of so they didn't actually "need" the money as much as someone who had to provide for a family or make it on their own and 2) as youths were in a learning phase in the job world so the learning curve factored in as a reason for lower wage as well.

This age group does have a totally different agenda.

And the food service industry counts "tips" as part of the wage so they can pay under minimum for standard salary.

[Tigress DEM]

249. Freedom isn't free, "free market" still has a responsibility to ethics.

Working out this situation that has gotten out of control has to involve evaluating the issue from both angles.

Solutions that are broad sweeping generalizations will make things worse.

There has to be some sort of "time out" and a careful consideration of how to make things better so that both the US and Mexico can get through this intact.

Still with the present Administration in charge, it's all for naught because whatever we say, whatever we do they are just going to get up and go "quack, quack, quack" and do whatever they want to anyway.

I say we address our own undercover dictatorship first and then worry about people who want to work in America without proper authorization later... when the grownups are in charge again.

The borders should be policed for possible terrorist activity and drug runners, but people in the country who other than skewing labor are basically law abiding should be dealt with as a less than life or death priority.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

32. Why didn't the English colonists make life better in their country?

Or, the Irish, Germans, Swedes, Italians, Russians?

[rzemanfl]

35. For a long time the United States had a constant shortage of

labor of all types that immigration fed.

[file83]

69. And your point is....?

[rzemanfl]

92. That there was not just a demand for cheap labor, like now. n/t

[file83]

100. Wha? Nevermind, you lost me.

[Tigress DEM]

253. SO in other words, it was more of a process than a stop gap.

Imigrate, pay your dues, become a citizen, make fun of other imigrants.

Not how it would be sold in brochures, but this problem has been going on from the beginning. It's only the fact that WE as a country allow the process to end with citizenship in the best of outcomes and have imigrant populations with a healthy humor about the hardships that keep the whole idea from being a failed experiment.

The Irish invasion was shipped off to fight in the Civil War from the docks where their ships sailed into port.

Chinese and Italians were brought here to work on the railroad for next to nothing.

Mexicans were treated even worse when the shanty towns were allowed and before they became "Chicanos" to fight back against inhumane treatment.

Course every gang that ever formed for protection eventually gets out of control.

[file83]

73. They didn't. They crossed the ocean, destroyed the native population...

and made it their own country. Then they made their lives better. What's your point?

Hopefully it's not that you think it's a good idea for Mexicans to cross the border, destroy the current population and make it their own country, is it?
:yoiks:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

230. Mexicans want to destroy the current population?

You mean like the Irish, Russians, Germans, Slovaks, Italians, did when they came here? If the Mexicans come here and become citizens, then it will be their country. Kinda like it is for the rest of us latecomers.

[file83]

234. I didn't make that suggestion - I was wondering if YOU were...

...since you never made a point concerning your rhetorical question of "Why didn't the English colonists make life better in their country?"

I asked the question of why Mexican immigrants don't make life in their country better - you replied with the English colonist's question instead of answering my question. So I answered your English colonist question (they killed Native Americans and took over the land) and was wondering what in the heck you were trying to imply. So I asked you a question - don't try and put words in my mouth by claiming that I made the suggestion, YOU DID.

So answer the question: Why are you implying what English colonists did hundreds of years ago is the same as what Modern Mexican immigrants are trying to do today? :shrug:

[CrazyForKucinich]

239. ha...

that's as probable as us changing america's economy. You ask the impossible.

[file83]

272. Impossible? That's a defeatest attitude....

I thought Mexicans were hard workers, so why not work on fixing their own government?

[CrazyForKucinich]

273. Like the American people are fixing their American government?

Maybe you haven't been paying attention to all the Americans doing nothing while this country gets raped. There's nothing we can do or nothing the Mexicans can do...the governments/corporations are in control.

That's a fact. You think people can just snap a finger and make things better. Change takes time and that's what you, I and the Mexicans don't have.

[file83]

274. But that doesn't mean we are GIVING UP, ABANDONING OUR COUNTRY!

No, we are staying here, getting politically active and trying to make a change. We are trying to get our election system back on track, we are going to make a HUGE effort to try and win back the house this 2006, and the White House in 2008. We aren't going to let a few shitty years destroy our country! Of course, if we took your attitude, the USA would turn into a broken country like Mexico is today.

So where are you moving to?

[donheld]

267. Why didn't the British make life better in Britan, Why didn't the

Irish make life better in Ireland. I'm sure the Native American's feel that way about every European that came to this land from the 15th Century on.

[file83]

271. Somebody already asked me that....

see my response here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=809678&mesg_id=810048

[Jose Diablo]

282. "Why don't Mexicans make life better in Mexico?" is because

Our fucking government interfers with people organizing in these other countries. The asshole 'Royals' control our government to the point that if people do try to better their conditions, our government sends Marines to 'protect' these assholes international investments from the people that really own the land, that is the people that live and work in the Central American countries.

It's the same old story of 'Royals' owning everything and when the people get pissed off enough, then the 'Royals' call their buds here in the States and the next thing you know, our soldiers are fighting a war to protect the 'Royals' interests.

If you think about, using our soldiers to protect the interests of 'Royals', both here and in other countries. Yet our soldiers, by and large are drawn from the poor class here. Using the poor here to fight the poor in other countries.

Ironic, isn't it?

[rman]

294. Thanks to meddling by big (US) corporations

Not in the last place by means of so called "Free Trade Agreements".
Corporations pretty much own the government, that's not news to most here. The purpose is to get laws and regulations to pass that favor those same Big Corporation - both domestically and internationally. Virtually without exception those laws and regulations are to the disadvantage of "the people", both in the US and elsewhere.

[rzemanfl]

13. Is being exploited by rich capitalists really a better life? My

grandfather immigrated here from Europe as a young man. By the time he was middle-aged he had a home, a lake cottage, fancy automobiles and a wife that stayed home. I don't think these illegals are going to have that kind of opportunity. Shit, I was born here, have three degrees, my wife works and we don't have a second home or fancy cars.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rzemanfl]

20. Poor choice of words, I think "racist" is a bit strong. But you are

entitled to you opinion.

[wtmusic]

43. Is legality a race?

:shrug:

[rzemanfl]

49. I guess so, "looting" is illegal and black, Congressional staffers

doing insider trading is legal and white and so forth...

[Hutzpa]

218. Now watch what you saying there friend n/t

[Cobalt Violet]

177. Lol.

:rofl: That's a good one.

[file83]

26. Why not just say "Homosapiens" - oh yeah, that would be

just a little too ambiguous. While you are at it, you said "racist". Why don't you refer to him/her as PEOPLE?

You human being, you!

[meganmonkey]

27. But in many cases they are being exploited by rich capitalists

in their home country as well.

NAFTA.

CAFTA.

Privatization of their water by western corporations.

And so on.

Their chances are likely higher here of being able to take care of their families.

[in_cog_ni_to]

38. That's not just Mexicans. That's the entire middle class in this country.

The middle class is not what it use to be. The cost of living is such that not many people can even afford to buy one house, let alone 2, fancy cars and both work. However, what Mexicans do have here, which may not be much, is still more than they will ever have in Mexico.

It USE to be if you worked hard you could "have the American Dream", but those days are LONG GONE. There is no American Dream.

[Tigress DEM]

246. Have you ever been to the poor places in Mexico?

In the '70's I saw the cement block dwellings with dirt floors and dogs wandering around with their ribcages showing.

I went to Cabo San Lucas about 4 years ago and in that area that has such an influx of tourist money, you could drive maybe 10 minutes or 2 hours and see the same tiny cement block dwellings with occassionally some good whitewash or even a pink color to them. Dogs are still skinny. Kids look better.

The rich have more than they can ever use and the poor are just living day to day and there is nothing in the middle unless some family members make it across the border, legally or illegally and send money home.

I'm not saying it is right or wrong, but the story in the Bible about the prodigal son going home to his rich daddy's ranch to eat pig slop because it was better than starving to death out in the real world is kind of like the choice Mexicans are looking at.

The rich in Mexico control all those resources and they aren't inclined to share or allow the peasants to get any real rights to make their destiny better through their labors, because it's more convenient if the rich get richer.... for the rich that is.

[NashVegas]

280. Yeah. I Sometimes Think We're Doing Mexican Elites a Huge Favor

I mean, if all their peasants immigrate to the US, Mexico's white population won't have to worry about the brown people getting funny ideas like they have in Chiapas.

When I go to my favorite Mexican restaurant, owned and staffed by immigrants, they often have their TVs set to Mexican soaps and entertainment shows. And it's impossible to not notice that the people on the screen look a lot more like well-heeled Europeans than the restaurant's workers, and 98% of the clientele.

[rman]

295. If it pays better then in Mexico - yes.

In Mexico they're also exploited by rich capitalists (in many cases US corporations) - just more so then in the US.

[CAcyclist]

17. I'm with you, Matcom

If there's any problem, it's with the corporations paying slave labor wages - well that can be fixed. Put the restraints on the corporation, not on desperate people.

[in_cog_ni_to]

70. It REALLY IS that simple.

This all could be "fixed" in a day. Fine the people who hire illegals $100,000 per worker and 1 year in jail. It would stop in a day...IF IT'S ENFORCED, but we all know who's running this country. It's those very people we expect the government to go after who have a choke hold on this country.:(

[anitar1]

193. This is where we are now.

I recently read a post asking us to THANK a Senator for voting the way he did. Shit!! We pay his wages and he is supposed to represent us for his wages.Instead he represents corporate interests when he thinks he can get way with it. Greedy Pig. And we should THANK him!!! What have we come to? Nothing will be enforced until we get rid of corrupt Pugs AND Dems. The Senator I referred to is a Dem.

[EFerrari]

107. Right on. Why is it so difficult to get that.

And what's up with these appeals to nationalism? That's just creepy.

[rman]

296. I think we know why it's difficult:

big corporations own the government.

[AnnInLa]

18. hear, hear!

cool rant

[in_cog_ni_to]

22. No, no, no, no, no no.....never ever ever ever have I supported

what's being done to/said about immigrants. NEVER.

I don't blame them one bit for wanting better for their families. WE DO TOO. IF you want to fix the problem, go to the source....THE PEOPLE WHO HIRE THEM. I will NEVER stand with people who want to discriminate against them. This country is what it is BECAUSE OF IMMIGRANTS. Hello! That's what makes America America! Right?

All this is is a new WEDGE ISSUE for the election. We all saw it coming when the Minute Men headed to the borders and flew their confederate flags. It's a BIGOTED, RACIST WEDGE ISSUE. Period.

[k_jerome]

24. is boston still "the most racist city in america"?

it seems there are brown people there that may need some help desperately. of course, they aren't the vogue topic of the day and roxbury will still be there when the opportunity to help those brown people becomes a more immediate concern. right now, pumping street cred by dropping the "f" bomb and slamming those that don't do as much as you obviously do for those brown people will suffice.

[matcom]

30. no it isn't

Osceola is :eyes:

[k_jerome]

50. i don't remember throwing rocks at the brown people's buses...

then again, i am sure those rocks were wrapped in 100 dollar bills.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[k_jerome]

66. how about operation red zone?

around for that?

32% of roxbury and north dorchester are under the poverty line. around for that? what are you doing about that?

i'm sure you are working hard for those brown people aren't you?

[AllieB]

93. What is happening in Boston right now is due to a variety of factors

This is a good article from the Phoenix, which explains the rising youth violence coincides with Republican cuts to after school and youth programs:

http://thephoenix.com/article_ektid503.aspx

BTW my family is from Dorchester, so I'm extremely familiar with the issues there. Are your still sweeping your race problems under the carpet there in Iowa? We're trying to deal with them here, despite a shitty Republican governor and administration.

[k_jerome]

101. actually, never had the degree of problems.

there is a reason there is a legacy of racism in boston. it is institutional. read the perspectives of minorities living there. or who have lived there. i lived there for 3 years in the 80's and it was there. as in the 50's-70's. trying to argue that boston is progressive on race issues will get a laugh all over the country. they have a well earned reputation.

[AllieB]

114. Boston is dealing with its legacy.

It has to-the Irish/Italian old guard are now a minority. They've either died or moved away.

Judging today's Boston from when you were a student here in the 1980s doesn't carry any water, considering how radically the demographic has changed here.

[k_jerome]

120. wasn't operation red zone in december?

is that dealing with the legacy?

who is the current mayor?

[AllieB]

You didn't read the Phoenix article

so therefore, you are uninformed of the reality here in Boston. Have a good night-I really, really pity you! :hi:

[k_jerome]

176. more racist legacy...

http://socialistworker.org/2006-1/574/574_08_Boston.shtml

[AllieB]

62. 1973. A long time ago. Cities change.

How many Brazilians, Haitians, Jamaicans, Vietnamese, Cambodians, Ethiopians, Somalis, Algerians, Bosnians, Portugues, Cape Verdeans, Dominicans, Puerto Ricans, Irish, Russians, Moroccans, Turks, and Italians are there in Osceola? Massachusetts has the largest Brazilian population outside of Brazil; Lowell MA has the second largest Cambodian population in the US; you get the picture? Class is still an issue here because of the high cost of living. You live in one of the most homogenous states in the Union. Who are you to judge?

[k_jerome]

68. i try not to judge. unless i am judged by someone...

with a much dirtier house than mine.

[AllieB]

74. That's what is known as judgemental

how is IA's race relations record? I dount it's spotless.

[k_jerome]

81. better than bostons.

intergration of neighborhoods and schools without problems. no nationwide reputation for racism.

[AllieB]

121. Maybe because there are more people in Dorchester than the entire state

of Iowa? Lilly white redneck state that it is...lots of Ku Klux Klan and Neo-Nazis. See? That has as much reality as your uniformed opinion of Massachusetts.

[k_jerome]

132. so when was operation red zone...

70's? 80's?

why the reputation? just a bunch of lies i guess?

http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2002/11.07/09-racism.html

plenty of articles like that one out there. of course that harvard place is in some other country i think. england maybe. and those guys are all uninformed.

[AllieB]

137. My family is from Dorchester and I grew up right next to Harvard

So please don't even PRETEND you know anything about living here. How sad you are.

[k_jerome]

142. i don't. thats why i take the word of minority leaders

dealing with the racist problems there.

[anitar1]

196. My God! Little or no racism in Iowa? Amazing. n/t

[k_jerome]

197. no, just a hell of a lot better than boston. nt.

[AllieB]

54. 30% of Boston's population is foreign-born

perhaps you haven't been there since the 1960s? I grew up there and have seen the changes.

[k_jerome]

71. yes, and which neighborhood have they been packed into.

do a google search on boston racist city. it is not a new notion nor is it a dispelled notion.

[AllieB]

103. No, they're not. I live here.

They're all over the greater Boston area. Obviously, you don't live here, you've never been here. I live in a nice suburb where my neighbors are from Haiti, Russia and Venezuela. You obviously HAVE NO CLUE, and have a chip on your shoulder about Boston. So how is Iowa's record regarding race and immigration? I heard there's a very active white supremacist movement there...just google it! It's on the internets so it must be true, even though I've only been to Dubuque once! :sarcasm:

[k_jerome]

115. i guess the whole country has a chip. just read the opinions.

i know it hurts.

incidentally, most of the things i read are local boston and mass. media.

is there a black mayor yet?

[AllieB]

131. No, but Cambridge has a black gay mayor

and the city council of Boston is half minority. And let's not forget, gay marriage is legal here. We're not perfect, but we're better than Iowa! :P

[k_jerome]

135. well, if a legacy of racism is better...

i am sure you would think that.

[AllieB]

145. Since I wasn't BORN

and I'm not even WHITE, why would you assume that I would favor a legacy of racism? You're grasping at straws and are obviously looking to disrupt.

[k_jerome]

147. in december...

that legacy renewed itself.


In its May Power issue, Boston Magazine listed the city’s 100 most powerful people. And coming in at 97, the Reverend Eugene Rivers, the only African American to make the list.

[AllieB]

181. Boston Magazine is fish wrap only read by the elite crackers

in the elite suburbs. No one takes it seriously. But then again, you wouldn't know, BECAUSE YOU DON'T LIVE HERE.

I'm off to bed. Maybe you should direct your vitriol at George Bush, rather than Boston, because it was your lilly white state that helped elect him! Sweet dreams! :boring: :hi:

[Name removed]

186. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tnlefty]

28. Not I. But could we try to have a calm discussion about this?

People aren't focusing on the greedy corporate bloodsuckers because they're being distracted by other things. I was in Gatlinburg, TN about a month or so ago and a huge construction project was going on. There were thousands of workers and I didn't see that many who weren't Latino. When this is going on in areas where people are out of work, unions are being neutered, and soooooooooo many jobs are being outsourced it only serves to distract attention from the rightful targets of that anger.

I couldn't imagine trying to live as an "illegal" anywhere, but when people are moving into areas where jobs are being outsourced, etc. there is going to be tension. It may not be my tension, but the tension is there.

I believe that the problem is the greedy bloodsuckers who run corporations, and take such huge salaries out of the corporations, not mention those retirement packages, but until the focus is put on them I think a potential for ill-will and even violence exists.

[pitohui]

44. it's hard to be calm when your livelihood is threatened

the people who are being all calm and rational are the ones who think that they are indispensible key employees and no one else can ever take their job

there's a limit to how calm people can be when they stand to lose everything, home, health care, everything

no honest person can compete w. a slave is the problem

[Cobalt Violet]

61. If we can't take care of ourselves, I don't see how we can take care of...

others.

[tnlefty]

88. Did you even bother to read all of what I posted?

I think that I put the focus very directly where it should be.....it's the CORPORATE GREED that's killing us!

[in_cog_ni_to]

170. Corporate greed? No it's not!

It's them there Mexicana people's fault! Blame the peole who those corporations hire!:sarcasm:

Geezus. I cannot believe the crap in this thread.

[nonconformist]

31. Where the REAL problems lie

Our labor market. Right fucking there, that's where the real problems lie.

It's simply an economic issue, and a fundamental one to the survival of this nation at that.

Flooding the market with slave labor helps NOBODY but the corporations.

Racist argument won't work on me, I come from a Hispanic family.

Yes, it is fascism. Corporate fascism. The desire for a slave class in the United States.

I don't blame people for trying to make their lives better. Hell, I want a better life too. I'm just one of those lowly blue collar folks that is struggling really hard to REMAIN middle class. Allowing this illegal immigration problem to continue will not only reduce the standard of living for millions of Americans, but it does nothing to address the problems in Mexico that they are fleeing, so it keeps a low standard of living for millions of Mexicans.

Some people have fled the US for Canada, but dollars to donuts they did it legally.

[pitohui]

34. thanks noncomformist

slave labor is what it is all about

[mzmolly]

299. You speak for many nonconformist.

:toast:

[Inland]

36. To whom are we indebted?

I completely acknowledge that keeping out somebody will deny him the ability to take an American job or drive down American wages. But then again, I also realize that the five bucks I did not give to charity today just cost somebody his life. I also realize that what I spent on dinner would feed a family of four in mexico for a week.

After all, all they want is what I want. Food, and my money. I give to overseas charity, for that reason.

Yet there's some limits to what I can, and will, provide. And those limits are lower for foreigners. Why? Well, because I owe Americans something, even the ones who prove a challege, like the NO residents, or the sick, or the poor. It means more that they are Americans and need help. They think they owe me, more, too. Between us, it isn't charity, because there's a compact. We're stuck with each other as Americans. It's not just that there's a job that happens to be geographically close to me. We are in it all together in a way that others aren't.

So telling me that foreigners just want what I want, and then bringing up a policy by which I give them some other American's job, and let them depress other American's wages, is really weird. It's asking me to put the burden of my decision to be charitable on my fellow Americans, who have sufficient problems and who I care more about in the first place. Certainly, some degree of immigration is good and proper, but there are limits. As long as there are limits, your high dudgeon is water off my back.

[matcom]

41. while it is water off YOUR back....

i'll fight for equality for all.

you can give up. i'll turn this into progress thanks.

[Inland]

59. "Equality for all"?

Is that what happens when an immigrant takes an American job? Day one, somebody is out of work, somebody has a job, and that's inequality. Day two, somebody is out of work, somebody has a job, and that's equality?

Looks like all you've done is change positions--not you, but two other people. In the meantime, people with skills end up "more equal" than them both, thanks to cheap labor, a la Animal Farm.

I don't care for that sort of "equality". Seems to me that I know that Americans, who share a society, could have some sort of equality inter se, by taking care of each other. I don't see how uncontrolled immigration helps that.

[wtmusic]

67. Sure, when we're equal we'll have sweatshops like in SE Asia too nt

[in_cog_ni_to]

80. I don't think Matcom called for "uncontrolled immigration" and

he never insinuated that he supported that.

[Inland]

102. Then he, too, would "Want To Deny Someone A Better Life."

He would fewer "someones", maybe, but someones still. That's what controlled immigration is, by definition.

Either he has to adopt uncontrolled immigration, or he has to admit that he too would be willing to deny someone a better life. Then it's only a question of picking a number that suits American interests, not a question of being racist or heartless, isn't it?

[pitohui]

58. you have some nice posts, inland

there are some people discussing this issue all i can figure is that they live in a cloud cuckoo land where there are no limitations

now, most of the people hiring illegals know perfectly well they are taking a job away from a working class person, often a black working class person who had limited chance to educate himself

they will say it to your face even that is what they are doing

but what is so wacky to me that so-called progressives will then chime in and help this black american be denied a job at decent wages forever and ever

even if they have to import foreigners to do it

even if the foreigners have to break the law when crossing the borders and thus violate our security to do it

and that to me is v. difficult to understand

[Aimah]

129. There must be regional differences.

I don't see any illegals living in tents in my city. They live in apartments but there might be a larger number of people in one apartment. They pull their resources together. They don't make a lot of money but they don't spend their money on the same kinds of needless purchases. Also, we shouldn't assume that every hispanic worker at Wal-mart is an illegal alien. The Hispanic population in my city has grown by almost 400% in the last five years and there has been fallouts because American born hispanics are being discriminated against in the job market.

I am black and I've never had a conversation with another black person about Mexicans taking "our jobs". I've never had the conversation with anyone of any race about Mexicans taking "our jobs".

I can see what you're saying even though I may not be able to relate. I just don't see it as the biggest issue right now. I think it's being pushed as a diversion away from the problems in Iraq and lack of improvements in New Orleans among other things.

[Inland]

210. There's issues to be considered

But aren't, IMO, by the OP.

1) Who do you owe.

2) What do you owe them.

It would be nice if I could give everybody everything they need. But since I can't, these questions have to be addressed.

In this immigration issue, it's clear enough that there aren't enough jobs for all the potential immigrants and all the Americans, at least not at a real wage. Somebody, then, is going to be denied a normal American standard of living through the choices made in immigration policies combined with the realities of the world.

I don't mind so much people coming out differently in the end, but I see a lot of avoidance of the fact that in a world of scarcity, everyone can't have everything, and that there are choices to be made. It's not as if someone were taking extra american jobs and flushing them down the toilet just to keep them from foreigners out of spite and all we need do is stop being mean. The jobs and wages are going to go to some, not all, because there's no magic job fairy in the US making a job for everyone that is present and desires one, at least not at american wages. Somebody is going to do without.

For example, there's one post saying that I shouldn't be assuming matcom wants uncontrolled immigration, but that's just my point: if he doesn't want uncontrolled immigration, then SOMEBODY gets denied, and a choice has to be made.

IMO, people are being called names merely because they recognize that choices have to be made, not avoided, that people pay a cost for uncontrolled immigration and that in controlled immigration, some are not going to get everything they want, or even everything I'd like to give them. So decide, not avoid.

My own personal positions are from the feeling that the US isn't just a job fair, people have relationships other than hire/pay, and we are bound together by more than a government as vendor to whom people look for services in exchange for taxes. So that's how I come out to find that some who want to immigrant, shouldn't, for the good of Americans and America.

[Minnesota Libra]

42. Just one question here. If people want a..........

....better life why don't they make that better life in THEIR OWN COUNTRY?? Notice I am NOT making a distinction as to color, which border they cross, which country they come from, or anything else.

So I'd like someone to just stick to that question - no name calling no mean sarcasm - just calmly answer that one question. If people truly want a better life why don't they work with fellow countrymen and make that better life in their own country?? Please do me the favor of answering that question.:shrug:

[matcom]

45. i'll be happy to answer that

why haven't WE been able to make a better life for US under the Bush* Regime?

huh?

why not?

haven't we TRIED?

[Minnesota Libra]

75. Matcom, I'm not running to another country for a better life though.......

.....that's my point. There are countries with better governments, better standards of living than the US and yet US citizens, including myself, aren't overwhelming those countries. Other countries wouldn't take it, they would deport us fast. So, it's back to my original question.

[RagingInMiami]

226. No, but your ancestors did

Otherwise, you would have been born where ever it was they came from.

EDIT TO INCLUDE YOUR PREDICTABLE ANSWER: "But they came here legally."

There, saved you the trouble.

[Castilleja]

87. But her question remains unanswered.....

[Blue Diadem]

200. matcom, are you aware of the HTA's that are across our country?

I saw a PBS show several years ago about immigrants from Mexico coming here for work. They also began Hometown Associations here to improve their hometowns in Mexico. They chip in money to improve their living situations in Mexico. One group they showed did quite well..built a baseball stadium, put in a well for their town, even purchased an ambulance.


http://www.pbs.org/pov/pov2003/thesixthsection/about.html

http://www.pbs.org/pov/pov2003/thesixthsection/special_interview.html

http://www.pbs.org/pov/pov2003/thesixthsection/special_mexican.html

snip from 3rd link:
As of the 2000 census, Latinos became the largest minority in the U.S., with Mexican immigrants and Mexican-Americans representing two/thirds of the Latino population. Each month, hard-working Mexicans in the United States send millions of money orders, averaging $200 each, across the border to their communities of origin. These remittances generate more than $9.3 billion a year for Mexico — almost half of the $23 billion total in migrant remittances sent to all of Latin America and the Caribbean. Mexico, a nation of 100 million people, reaps almost as much from remittances as India, with a population of one billion. In fact, remittances are Mexico's third-largest source of income, after oil exports and tourism. In the states of Zacatecas and Michoacán, as well as in much of rural Mexico, they exceed local and state budgets.

The money that these migrants send home has long been understood to be part of an individual and household strategy, in which cash is transferred to families back home from migrants working abroad. However, in the last two decades, remittances between the United States and Mexico have evolved from being solely the province of individuals and household toward increasing involvement of organized hometown associations (HTAs). These associations are based on the social networks that migrants from the same town or village in Mexico establish in their new U.S. communities. Members of these associations, commonly known as clubes de oriundos, seek to promote the well-being of their hometown communities of both origin (in Mexico) and residence (in the U.S.) by raising money to fund public works and social projects.

Edited to change snip link reference.

[meganmonkey]

51. Many do, like the leftist people's movements in South America lately

They are trying. But thanks to the same corporate powers which are exploiting workers here, they are often suffering under gov't's who will not or cannot keep the western corporations from exploiting them in their own countries.

Our gov't is beholden to these corporations too and does it's damnedest to protect the status quo.

Is Chavez an America-hating dictator, like our news says? No. He is trying to help the poor people in his country. And that is why our government is so threatened by his very existence.

I think there are many layers to this situation.

Peace.

[Minnesota Libra]

78. Again why don't they keep fighting for a better life in their country? nt

[meganmonkey]

108. Okay

I was typing out a long response with links and examples, but it just occurred to me that nothing I can say will really satisfy your question, because I am not an illegal immigrant, and I wouldn't feign to understand their inner thoughts, what finally made a particular individual leave their home country and attempt to come to the US.

Your question is faulty, it cannot be answered honestly, unless you make the effort to go to the source and ask it directly to those who have come here.

What I will say is this - I know most people on this website are at a loss as to how make real effective change in our own country, with all of the resources we have, and our supposed democracy. I imagine it would be incredibly difficult for folks who struggle daily for the most basic necessities to rise up and fight. Especially when they are up against huge nations and corporations who are determined to keep them down. I can't even imagine what level of desperation would drive someone to give up on their home country.

edit for spelling

[Name removed]

146. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wtmusic]

52. If we're going to be internationalist about it

then outsourcing is OK too? I don't see a distinction here.

[LSK]

53. why dont you ask your ancestors who immigrated from wherever the same

Unless you are an American Indian, ALL IMMIGRANTS chose not to make a better life in the country they came from.

[Minnesota Libra]

83. My ancestors immigrated LEGALLY and followed the rules nt

[EFerrari]

86. So, which tribe did they buy their land from, MInnesota?

What a pantload.

[in_cog_ni_to]

112. ouch!

*high five* :hug:

[Minnesota Libra]

125. See this is what is wrong with the issue of illegal aliens...........

.....every time someone asks a question the question itself never gets answered because all these other issues have to be added.

You know what, some of my relatives were here looooooong before the Europeans got here - not that it's anyones business but they were.

As for buying/taking someone else's land - I have a suggestion. Don't just pick a point in history and say we give those people that lived there all the land back. I say be fair about it, go ALL THE WAY BACK to the beginning of time and return all land to the original owners. Almost every last person on the face of the earth would be displaced.

So getting back to my original question, why don't people stay in their country of origin and work for the better life they want??

[EFerrari]

That's a good question. In the case of Mexico, it's mostly

because American corporations have bought their ruling class and enslaved the people.

The good news is that there is a revolutionary wave sweeping over Latin America. Unless we screw it up for them yet another time, they should do all right.

[Minnesota Libra]

155. So why don't illegal aliens stay home and throw out corporations etc and..

.....in the process make a better life?? We have problems of our own but Americans aren't flooding to Canada or Mexico - although I don't think either country would allow it either. So again why don't illegal aliens stay home, throw out whoever or whatever - regardless of how long it takes and make a better life in their own country. OR they could come here LEGALLY. See, I don't have a problem with legal aliens - legal immigration at all. My ONLY PROBLEM is with illegal aliens, illegal immigration.

[EFerrari]

185. The corporatists have stacked the immigration process against

certain countries so they can exploit those workers EITHER in their native land OR here. Pretty neat trick, isn't it?

Latin America seems to be getting their act together. It's largely because of big corporations -- mostly ours -- that conditions are so horrendous in some places that people literally HAVE to go foraging for food. It's very very bad there.

When you get that hungry, being "illegal" gets less and less important. :(

[High Plains]

163. Because they think they have a better chance somewhere else

It is not like coming to El Norte is going to an entirely foreign world. Most Mexican and Central American immigrants are following fathers, or cousins, or brothers who have gone before. If you study immigration patterns, you see that people from a certain village in Oaxaca all go to a certain part of LA, for example. There are long-established circuits and networks.

Some portion of them come only to work awhile and go back home. Believe it or not, not everyone sees the US as paradise, even if you can make money here. They take those savings and open small businesses back in Mexico, even things as simple as buying a pickup truck and using to haul goods and people.

I would say that the reason many immigrants don't stay and fight in their own countries is that they have little confidence the political systems will be responsive to them and they have a much stronger cultural memory of being killed or imprisoned for political activities back home.

[The Witch]

47. I'm not leaving.

I'm disillusioned and disappointed by what I saw today, but I'm not leaving.

[EFerrari]

55. Don't let me catch you helping ALIENS, matcom.

It's THEM OR US!:sarcasm:



It's so funny. Our culture demands that we outlaw helping people. Theirs demands that you help people.

[Swamp Rat]

236. LOL!

:rofl: :hug:

[DetroitProle]

65. I'm not going anywhere. I respect the law.

Why? I don't have the "means". I don't have the "means" to even apply for permanent residence in Canada(or buy a car, pay rent, do anything really. I'm a student).
I could easily go over the Canadian border and never come back. I live in Detroit, I go to Canada about once a month, for dinner or whatnot.
However, I'm not going to squat in their nation. I'm not going to work some Canadian's job and live there illegally. It's illegal.
As a liberal, I believe in the law. I believe in the rights of the citizen. I'm not some anarchist. There are nations. There are laws. Liberals believe in those things.
Believe me, where I am in my life right now, with no means, illegally hanging around in Canada would probably have benefits. I'd be able to afford rent(rent in Windsor is about half of what it is in DETROIT of all places even). I'd have health care. I'd have money for school. However, I'm not a criminal. I'm not going to steal their jobs and invade their country.
Therefore, I am not a hypocrite, when I say, if you're illegal, stay out.
If illegal immigrants weren't working for $25 a day, those jobs could be good, unionized jobs for citizens, paying $10 an hour. The employers wouldn't have any choice but to pay a decent wage, without this "competition". I'd take one of those jobs in a heartbeat.
Fuck NAFTA, fuck outsourcing, fuck illegal immigration. Living wage YES.
I'm a citizen under the law and I respect the rights and laws of citizen's of other sovereign nations.

Don't talk to me about means. I don't have a pot to piss in. Nations and laws exist, deal with it.

[Elwood P Dowd]

76. Maybe this will help you.

From Thom Hartman.....


Do a little math. The Bureau of Labor Statistics says there are 7.6 million unemployed Americans right now. Another 1.5 million Americans are no longer counted because they've become "long term" or "discouraged" unemployed workers. And although various groups have different ways of measuring it, most agree that at least another five to ten million Americans are either working part-time when they want to work full-time, or are "underemployed," doing jobs below their level of training, education, or experience. That's between eight and twenty million un- and under-employed Americans, many unable to find above-poverty-level work.

At the same time, there are between seven and fifteen million working illegal immigrants diluting our labor pool.

If illegal immigrants could no longer work, unions would flourish, the minimum wage would rise, and oligarchic nations to our south would have to confront and fix their corrupt ways.

<snip>

Meanwhile, the millions of American citizens who came to this nation as legal immigrants, who waited in line for years, who did the hard work to become citizens, are feeling insulted, humiliated, and conned.

Every nation has an obligation to limit immigration to a number that will not dilute its workforce, but will maintain a stable middle class - if it wants to have a stable democracy. This has nothing to do with race, national origin, or language (visit Switzerland with it's ethnic- and language-dived areas!), and everything to do with economics.

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0329-21.htm

[matcom]

82. "If illegal immigrants could no longer work....."

THEY WOULD DIE

nice republican talking point there :eyes:

[Elwood P Dowd]

90. You didn't even take enough time to read and comprehend what Thom

was saying. Your ignorance is showing when you label a life-long progressive such as Thom Hartman a republican. You're nothing more than a name-calling trouble maker.

[matcom]

95. really?

i think he is WRONG on this.

oooooo a "trouble-maker"????

i'm honored

[Cobalt Violet]

122. We are dying as our standard of living is falling.

We are already dying due to our falling standard of living.

Don't we count?

[EFerrari]

84. Thom is wrong on this one, unless his last name is Crazy Horse. n/t

[Elwood P Dowd]

Thom is right, you are wrong

All you people have is name-calling and a wild, emotional, and uninformed view of the world.

[EFerrari]

104. Nice personal attack, Elwood. And I hope that's all it is.

Thom is wrong on this one because this is a small planet with limited resources and defending an imaginary border will not solve that problem.

Is that "emotional" enough for you?

What do you mean by "all you people"? :)

[wtmusic]

110. So you are a proponent of outsourcing?

What are the limits of this "imaginary border"?

[EFerrari]

116. So, you are for allowing other people to go hungry to enrich yourself?

What are the limits that you'll go to? Just deny them water? Food too?

[wtmusic]

119. Answer mine and I'll answer yours

:P

[EFerrari]

128. No, of course not. And I hate the whoie underworld BushCO

has created for undocumented workers. And I really really hate that we seem to get mad at them for being hungry without realizing we're all being screwed by the same handful of people and that we're really on the same side.

I adore Thom but on this, he's not really making sense. There is no wall high enough that we can put up to keep out hungry people. The earth is just too small for that.

:)

/typin'

[wtmusic]

149. I'm asking questions

because I'm so completely at a loss on this issue.

In the past 2000 years we've gone from city-states to countries to a nearly completely internationalized society.

What would happen if every country just opened their borders?
Would it result in one world government, and if so, would it ultimately be to the benefit of mankind?
Can we afford to ignore human rights abuses and hunger in other countries of the world?
What is wrong with outsourcing anyway? Shouldn't people in India have the right to make what I do for the same work?
If I've paid taxes to the USA my whole life should I feel cheated if others reap the benefits?
Is America's right to wield influence in other countries greater than any other country's?

To me, these are all valid questions that have nothing to do with race, color of one's skin, or what language is spoken. It seems that economics will be to the 21st century what nukes were to the 20th.

[EFerrari]

160. Yes, as the planet shrinks. Maybe American corporatism

is the real WMD. :)

[wtmusic]

106. Not sure that equating a nation with the land on which it was founded

is a valid premise

[EFerrari]

113. Right -- because it disallows the appeal to nationalism.

And, it disallows the fiction that all of "us" are legal people and all of "them" are illegal people.

[Inland]

117. Which way does the Native American experience cut?

Their experience of the introduction of overwhelming numbers of an alien culture might show the value of border controls from the perspective of the already-theres; at any rate, I don't see how the debt owed to my fellow Americans who are descended from the indigenous is an argument for a benefit to foreigners.

[EFerrari]

138. Mexicans are Americans last time I looked.

And I find these appeals to nationalism creepy, especially because this is a nation of immigrants.

[Inland]

162. Using vocabulary as a means of avoiding my point wastes my time.

It just does. But if you find a simple statement of community with fellow Americans, the people who fight my wars, support my government, have signed onto some basic common ideals, and who feel the same community with me, to be creepy, then doubtless you think of the country as just a big job fair and not much else. I don't feel that way.

[EFerrari]

165. A big job fair. No, actually I was implying a greater sense

of community than you with your blinkered nationalism seem to understand. Sorry.

[Inland]

183. Greater in what sense?

Not much greater, since you only mentioned Mexicans. Is it polite to ask if Ugandans, Pakistanis, Guatemalans, and Ukrainians are in this greater community, and if not, is there some reaons other than the fact that they too are from a different nation?

Well, whatever. Maybe your community has more people than a nation, but certainly it's diluted, both in your view and in the view of the people you consider "the community". In what sense issomeone from some isolated hill town in Mexico in "your community"? What can you tell me about this person? Well, he wants a job in your town, sure, but what else? His dad didn't die at Iwo Jima. His brother's taxes didn't pay for your schooling. He isn't going to feel responsible if your city ends up under water. What does it mean to be members of the same community?

How is your "community" different from a job fair?

[Elwood P Dowd]

124. Supply and demand. You just don't get it!

I don't think you people understand economics. There has been stagnant job growth in the private sector. The economy has to create 1.5 to 2.0 million jobs a year just to break even. Millions of illegal immigrants just compound the problem. The result is a giant oversupply of labor, which means the demand for paying a living wage keeps falling. Millions of Americans who once made a living wage are now in competition with a growing population of illegal immigrants willing to do the same work for $5.15 an hour (or $3.00 an hour under the table). This is a recipe for disaster.

Now factor in all the trade deals and outsourcing taking place. 3 million manufacturing jobs alone left the country in the past 4 years. Even high tech jobs are leaving by the hundreds of thousands a year. Do you start to understand the problem now?

[EFerrari]

134. Who is "you people"? lol

I understand economics perfectly. You don't seem to understand the difference between theory and application.

[Elwood P Dowd]

143. People like you who argue on emotion

and not facts. I've given you plenty of facts. So has Thom Hartman, Randi Rhodes, and tons of other progressives who recognized this problem.

[EFerrari]

157. You have facts but no ability to digest them, apparently.

What Thom and you, in particular, seem to be eliding is that there are no illegal people. And that on this small planet, we are interdependent whether you like it or not. And, there is no way to limit the kind of immigration we have here unless we put armed guards at the border to keep the hungry people out.

It's a nonstarter. Those people have been coming and going for hundreds of years. They will never, ever stop.

The solution is to hold employers responsible and regularize wages. And get our elections back so we can kick the corporatists out of the White House.

Is that "emotional" enough for you, progressive?

lol

[Elwood P Dowd]

166. That's some very old people if they're been coming and going

for hundreds of years.

The numbers do not lie. There is an oversupply of people willing to work for low wages, and that supply is growing. Jobs are leaving the country by the millions. It's simply supply and demand. Live with it!

[EFerrari]

171. You are very selective with your "facts", Elwood.

And you have this fantasy that you can simply disappear millions of people.

They're here and they will always be here. Live with it. Make common cause with other working families instead of trying to falsely subtract them from the equation.

[Elwood P Dowd]

188. They're not going to be here much longer

The housing bubble is about to burst, and millions of jobs are going to be lost in that sector alone. When that happens, the REAL unemployment rate will probably hit the 12-15 percent range. Citizens of this country are not going to accept illigeal immigrants working here when millions more of our own become unemployed. I know a few African-American workers who have already lost their construction and landscaping jobs because they wouldn't take a pay cut to $6.00 an hour or less. In many cases the illegals will take $3.00 an hour under the table. This is madness! It's a race to the bottom as long as you have an oversupply of workers.

[k_jerome]

191. elwood...

the illegals must remain here so that these true progressives can pack them into ghettos and use them as fresh cheap labor. you see what hundreds of years of being a brown person in this country has earned the american brown people that are already here, don't you? what do progressives do for them? as much as republicans. nothing. it isn't vogue to help our own.

[EFerrari]

233. So, let the round ups begin!

'Way to go.

:eyes:

[Cobalt Violet]

140. U.S. corporate profits increased 21.3% wage and salary fallen to 56.9%

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x809478



And notice how many recommends this thread has gotten compaired to that one.

That's what were up against.

[EFerrari]

158. Yes. And you still try to solve the problem by going after WORKERS.

That's just silly.

[Cobalt Violet]

168. I'm standing up for "workers". We are workers too.

[EFerrari]

179. No, you are standing up for American workers and in doing so

you are actually splintering labor.

This is a small planet. Don't shoot yourself in the foot.

/L

[Cobalt Violet]

198. Damn right I'm standing up for American workers!

:patriot:

I'm firmly against slavery.

[EFerrari]

232. You're against slavery for some people. Geezus. n/t

[Cobalt Violet]

278. Your for a pro-slavery class in this country.

[Tigress DEM]

259. Top 1% have how much of the money now?

CEOs rate of pay vs the average worker is what like 300+% more? I think it's worse than that, but even 300% is outrageous.

You can't end prostitution by jailing hookers if you don't prosecute the John's who pay them and find some other means of financial empowerment.

Whatever corporation exploits illegal immigrants should be required to pay all fines out of the top executive's salaries because that is who is making money off the situation, not the average joe or common taxpayer or even the illegals.

Yes, find a way for Mexican's to live in Mexico with some shred of dignity or come here legally.

[Deja Q]

292. Excellent, accurate, incontrovertible, and utterly undeniable points.

:applause:

Seriously.

[Nutmegger]

85. Hello, I like your purple hippo.

Oh, and well said! :thumbsup:!!!

[AnnInLa]

94. Can I just say

that this is one of those issues that make your heart/gut feel one way, but your head/intellect see another way? I have conflicting emotions, and I think alot of Americans do. I don't think there is a solution.

I blame bush.

[EFerrari]

97. Now, there's a step in a humane direction. lol

:thumbsup:

[Hippo_Tron]

209. Can't argue with that logic

When in doubt, blame it on Bush. The sad thing is that you will usually be right.

[Tigress DEM]

261. There isn't a "bullet point" solution. But it isn't rocket science either.

It is a complex problem and requires a complex solution over time with a committment to an end result that works for both countries and a level of accountability placed on the companies that are causing the problem.

Not only those that hire illegals, but those who export living wage jobs and those that avoid taxes by having po boxes in the bahamas and the biggest offender in the corporate world EXXON who has had obscene profits due to price gouging and still won't pay the taxpayers the rent it owes on govt owned land.

It also requires an administration of grownups vs the idiot chimp and his cronies to fully pursue the type of complex solution that is needed.

[-..__...]

96. "To Deny Someone A Better Life?"

Priorities, dude... priorities.

You speak of it (immigration... illegal or otherwise), as if it's a right... It's not. Read the US Constitution sometime. It may be the right (PC), thing to do, but we have more important priorities before we can accommodate others.

Until we take care of our own... by that I mean our homeless, elderly, unemployed, veterans, uninsured, working class, etc; the concerns of those jumping the fence are irrelevant and unimportant.

Charity begins at home.

I really have little sympathy for the "illegal masses yearning to be free".

Maybe on your dime, but not on mine.

Oh, what the hell. Maybe I'll send them a check. Whom do I make it out to? Sally Struthers?

[Thtwudbeme]

98. That's cold. Honestly, give to whatever charity you want, but don't write

a check to one, brag about how fabulous you are...and then announce you don't give a damn about others.

Jesus Christ. That's horrible.

[in_cog_ni_to]

136. Damn. Good thing people didn't feel that way when YOUR ancestors

immigrated here. G-d only knows where YOU would be today.:( That was a cruel post. I'm ashamed of some of the posters on this thread. It's making me ill. Honestly.

Is THIS what America stands for?

"The Statue of Liberty is no longer saying 'Give me your poor, your tired, your huddled masses.' She's got a baseball bat and she's yelling, 'You want a piece of me?'" Robin Williams. :(

Sad. Very sad.

[-..__...]

189. The immigration strawman (or hypothetical).

If my ancestors never emigrated here (half Irish, half Polish), would I even know or care if I was here or not?

Where my ancestors came from is a non-issue (at least to me... I have no cultural pride or enthusiasim... I'm not a hyphenated American... I'm an American, plain and simple). I'm here and happen to be here and glad for it. If my ancestors never made it here and I was born anywhere else, would I know or even care about the difference?

If anything else, my ancestors at least came over here with some government oversight, processing or approval. They just didn't show up here.

[RagingInMiami]

99. Welcome to the darker side

The food is better, the drinks are stronger and the music louder.

Our women are sexy. Our men are crazy (Speaking only for myself). And although we tend to be a little dramatic, if you believe Latin American soap operas, we are generally very hospitable when it comes to our homes.

Your post reminded me of a personal story. After graduating college in 1995, I embarked to Europe to pursue my dream of being a writer. I wanted to follow in the footsteps of Henry Miller, Ernest Hemingway and F. Scott Fitzgerald, all whom lived in Paris during the 1920s.

I had planned to live in Spain because I knew the language. Or maybe Italy because their language is close enough. I ended living in Ireland after traveling the continent and falling in love with its culture and people.

For 18 months, I waited tables in Dublin while immersing myself in the Irish culture, picking up a brogue along the way. For 18 months, I lived, drank and learned from the Irish.

And for 18 months, I lived the life of an honorary Irishman because as they would tell me, I not only have a gift of the gab and a taste for the pints, but an appreciation for the written word as well.

Unlike most Americans who visit Ireland, I don't have a drop of Irish blood in me.(Although my mother believes I was Irish in a previous life).

Speaking of my mother, she is a Colombian immigrant who didn't know a word of English when she moved here, but is now fluent, although she has a strong accent.

And my father was a German-American from Virginia who had a lust for the Latin ladies as well as its culture. He lived in Cuba before Castro threw him out. A few years later, he traveled to Colombia, married my mom and they relocated to Miami.

The point of this post is that despite the different languages and cultures and colors in this world, we are all one race; the human race. And no matter how you cut it, most Americans, if you look deep enough into their heritage, are already a clusterfuck of different cultures.

So maybe I do have some Irish in me after all.

[bemildred]

105. Bravo.

We are all in this together, and if we don't figure that out, we are going to get weeded out.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

111. Why don't we stop freely handing out visas to college grad outsiders

There's plenty unfair about uneducated Mexicans not being permitted in, while college grad Russians, Philipinos, Indians, etc. get easy visas so they can take our college-grad jobs.

[Gregorian]

118. Are we or are we not one world?

I don't know why this subject doesn't bother me. I tend to get bothered by a lot of things. But when I try to do something, I do it on my own merits. If someone from Mexico, "illegal" "alien" or not, can do better than me, then good for them. I don't see borders. I see brothers.

[ldf]

123. very hesitantly wading into this quicksand....

but, that hasn't stopped me yet... :-)

i see three basic problems.

first problem, population. maybe the fine citizens of mexico need to learn about birth control. and i just bet you that they DO KNOW what makes babies....

ok, so they can't afford birth control pills or condoms, there is always the "pull out" method, or they can keep track of the fertile and non-fertile days (rhythm method?), OR, they can use that ever popular, sure-fire option used by all so-called christians, ABSTINENCE.

it wouldn't stop ALL pregnancies, but it sure would cut down, and THEN maybe their economy could handle the care of their own population.

but NOOOO..... then you would be getting into their RELIGION, and screw THAT. god said go forth and fuck yourselves into oblivion, and damn it, THAT IS what they will do. either that, or sneak over here, have their babies here, so they will automatically be american citizens, can use our healthcare, food assistance, education, ALL while resisting to learn our language!

then, when the kids DO start attending school, they can walk out in protest, hoist the mexican flag above the american flag, get in a free for all with the so-called natives (who ALL originally came from somewhere else, except the few that were, of course, EXPLOITED, OPPRESSED, and generally GENOCIDALLY ERADICATED..), and generally cause much consternation amongst the previously mentioned so-called natives.

second problem, greedy american businesses.

why the hell should ANYONE pay a fair, livable wage, when they can exploit the poor, uneducated DESPERATE foreigners, willing to work for pennies on the dollar, under the table, thereby completely bypassing all benefits, social security and other taxes that would automatically be taken out.

are we idiots, or compassionate fellow humans? well, obviously, we are idiots! afterall, that is the american way, to get rich by exploiting others misfortunes, while at the same time creating a whole NEW segment of "exploiter by proxy" class of people, the ever popular CORPORATE SHAREHOLDER, who doesn't give a damn about anything except dividends!

AND if our wonderful, profit worshipping businesses can't do that here in america, then, by god, we'll move to the other countries where we can exploit AT WILL!!!! Yeehaw, (chant) USA, USA, USA.....

and third problem, but certainly not the least, is the american workers, themselves.

uh, i'm sorry, but that job pays so little i can't live off of it so i am not going to work at all.

HUH?

so NOTHING is better than SOMETHING?

or, that job is too menial. i will NOT do that kind of work. WHAT will PEOPLE THINK???

well, i have done ALL kinds of work, from ditch digging, to working at obviously toxic jobs because that was all i could get, HERE, in the good 'ol us of a, but i did what i had to do to not starve.

maybe a few of those americans who refuse to work could consider, again, that something IS better than nothing. at least it would be a START at paying the bills....

geez effin louise!

but you get my drift.....


rant/off

(donning asbestos jockstrap - sequined, of course..)

:shrug:

[wtmusic]

130. that wasn't very hesitant at all

this is one of those topics where it's easy to have an argument with yourself

[Tigress DEM]

256. Hmm - intolerance in action, but sometimes rants veer that way.

1) Completely racist characterization that Mexican's are out there making babies constantly with no understanding of birth control.

It's as bigoted as calling Indians "Savages" in order to justify taking their land from them or talking about Blacks as being "inferior" to White folk.

Church rules about BC is an issue even in countries that don't have the same level of disparity between rich and poor. America could help by getting back our intrisic balance of separation of church and state and telling pharmacists to go to work or the pulpit, but don't get them mixed up. The Pope could help by allowing families to say enough is enough and get "fixed" after a certain prayerful number making good families available to adopt or foster.

In the real world birth control pills do cost money and forms of birth control like rhythm and pull out have about the same effectiveness (80%)as nothing at all, fyi. Since you probably don't read the BC package information due to your situation.

2) Corporate greed and the fear based model of having to constantly outperform (instead of just simply being a great Corporation providing needed and/or desired products or services and liveable wages to employees and a solid economic base in the community) has pushed even industries that wanted to be good corporate citizens into the "lie zone" where creative accounting makes the bottom line seem solid when it's really about to fold.

Still that doesn't make anyone wanting a humane solution and a real longterm solution turn into rightwing nuts exporting jobs overseas. Black & White, meet the rest of the rainbow. Lots of choices and options available.

3) American workers are taking minimum wage jobs. Even people with degrees. Lots of times we have 2 or 3 jobs, but when you work constantly and still can't afford health care or to feed your kids, it isn't wrong to demand real change in a system that is brokenly balancing on the backs of the working class poor.

Young kids used to take the below minimum wage jobs to learn about work life, but a lot of them don't know about real hard labor because society has changed and a lot of us wanted better for our kids. A lot of our kids are more geared toward the information age than the labor intensive manufacturing/service age. That is partly a good thing. We don't want to become a third world country after having started the information age only to abandon it because we want our damm minimum wage jobs back, thank you very much.


REAL solutions don't REQUIRE namecalling. But it's late and sometimes getting crap like that off your chest feels better. Hope you can think on it and come up with less caustic ideas somehow. Those who expect tolerance should show some.

Peace.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

127. Damn Right!

Great post, firstly.

I do think things have gotten out of hand with this debate and I do think there are many valid arguments from both sides. What I find pathetic are the ones that berate the immigrants as if they are some terrorist criminals that are deserving of the posters massive rage and bitterness. Forging arguments against why there should or shouldn't be certain rules towards immigration is ok. But those should be intellectually valid and logical reasons. When instead it turns so emotional and passionate that it comes off making the immigrants out to be pieces of garbage that deserve nothing, that's when it sickens me, turns pathetic and displays a sentiment that is far from being what I consider a liberal one. For example, I saw a CNN poll the other day asking "would you consider entering a country illegally if it was the only way to improve life for your family" or something like that. I think around 30% said no. I immediately thought "fucking liars". Any one of us, under circumstances of perceived desperation, would consider immigrating illegally elsewhere if it was the only way to improve things for our family. Those that say otherwise are either bold faced fucking liars, or so cold, selfish and pathetic that they would put the petty ass 'legality' as more important than their family. I think it is far more likely to be the former: they're fucking liars.

In any case, god bless.

[jonnyblitz]

133. great post!

:thumbsup:

[bpilgrim]

139. you hate liberals, too

get in line :evilgrin:

peace

[Marr]

141. Ok, Mr. Friendly. Give up *your* job first.

I'm sorry, but that cum ba ya bullshit is just that- bullshit. Labor has the right to lobby for it's own interests, and the middle class of this country is already beaten to a pulp. I have nothing at all against Mexicans- I grew up in a majority hispanic town and most everybody I know is either a Mexican immigrant or of Mexican decent. And most of them want to protect their jobs, too.

It is not greedy to defend your own labor market. It's common sense.

And for the record, I am not planning to, nor do I discuss, moving to Europe.

[matcom]

144. "cum ba ya bullshit "

we could use more of it.

sorry. i don't dig ditches. if you dig ditches BETTER than the Mexican worker you have nothing to worry about.

if you don't......

[Marr]

151. I'm sure you don't dig ditches.

If you did, you wouldn't be so anxious to compete with foreign labor that'll do it for $2/hour.

[matcom]

153. that THEIR fault?

or their EMPLOYER'S & GOVERNMENT'S fault?

why do you punish the WORKER?

that is a REPUKE trait

[Marr]

161. No sir, *exploiting the worker* is a Republican trait.

And you seem to be all for it.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but the problems of the Mexican labor market are not on my mind when I go into the voting booth. The problems of the *American labor market* are. You don't seem too concerned with that, for some reason.

[EFerrari]

175. Why is it that some DUers can only imagine Mexican as

exploited workers who must disappear? It's irrational.

[Tigress DEM]

258. Dunno.

Real solution has to work for both countries and the corruption of one affects the other. So somehow we have to work together.

[Elwood P Dowd]

148. Yes, let all them all give up their job and their income

as an offering of goodwill to the illegal immigrants. Also, have them furnish me a list of countries on this earth that allow 12 million undocumented illegal immigrants to roam the land.

[Name removed]

152. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Elwood P Dowd]

156. More name calling and no answers. Typical

So what do you call it - tip toeing through the tulips?

[matcom]

159. how about.....

"seeking a respectable life for a HUMAN family"???????

that too hard to grasp?

guess it is :eyes:

[Elwood P Dowd]

172. 8 million unemployed US workers

Is that too hard to grasp? You never read the article, so I will post the link again.

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0329-21.htm

[in_cog_ni_to]

190. That's not ALL related to illegal immigration. What? Illegal immigration

just started THIS YEAR? Look at the repukes in office who have outsourced our jobs. We make NOTHING in this country anymore....it's all overseas. The unemployment rate rests at the feet of the repuke administration that has DELIBERATELY outsourced jobs so they could THEN BLAME IT ON ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION. Bring all those companies who are now overseas to avoid paying taxes back HERE and see how many unemployed we have. This wedge issue on illegal immigration is bullshit.

When Clinton was in office we didn't have this problem. We had illegal immigration then, did we not? He CREATED JOBS. I could pull out my book "It's the economy, stupid" by Paul Begala and quote statistics, but I'm too tired. The figures are there if you care to read them.

8 MILLION UNEMPLOYED US WORKERS thanks to BUSH and his policies. BRING BACK THE US CORPORATIONS AND WE WILL HAVE JOBS FOR OUR UNEMPLOYED.

[Lerkfish]

169. you should see the movie "el norte".

very powerful, compelling film about people trying to enter america to find the american dream, only to find themselves enslaved for pennies by no shortage of americans willing to exploit them.

it might make you think.

It made ME think quite a bit.

[EFerrari]

178. That was a great movie. It should be required viewing for

anyone who is arguing textbook economics.

[Cobalt Violet]

182. We can't have thinking.

We can only have emotion and name calling. :sarcasm:

[EFerrari]

187. Most of the emotion and name calling on this thread are from

people who believe wrongly that they have all the answers to this problem -- when they don't even understand the problem.

I suggest you go rent that film immediately.

[DS1]

164. Lots of immigrants serve in the US Military

because they feel it's the right thing to do

I did.

[matcom]

167. fuck you

you have NO RIGHT to a good life here

oh wait, you are WHITE....

fogive me....

:sarcasm:

[EFerrari]

173. You're a big troublemaker and I'm going to hide this thread.

:loveya: and I really am or I won't be able to eat my dinner. Noches.

[Cocoa]

180. you could respond this way to anyone who questions outsourcing

"who are YOU to deny the Indians a better life" etc.

[Thtwudbeme]

184. Cocoa, you know better than that. How can you compare people

willing to risk their lives to move to a better location to a large corporation like Dell or Bank of American moving jobs to India?

apples to oranges.

[Cocoa]

201. if this was a real discussion, you'd have a point

but it's not, it's just self-righteous screaming, and the screaming could apply to outsourcing too.

[frustrated_lefty]

204. hell, it could be applied to

anyone breaking into your home and taking whatever they happened to need. Ah, well, it's a good thread for popcorn.

[QC]

217. Self-righteous screaming is what we do best here.

Along with preening, posing, self-congratulation, maudlin mutual admiration, and general dramaqueenery. If you want an actual discussion, you should probably look elsewhere.

[Cocoa]

220. I'll add hectoring to your list

lots of hectoring here. :-)

[QC]

222. Yes, self-righteous bluster is plentiful,

especially since the Great Immigration War began.

I actually like DU a lot and have been here since the beginning, but threads like this are one of my pet peeves. You can try to discuss the subtleties of a complex issue in a civil and thoughtful way, and the thread drops like a rock, but someone can post some nonsense like "I AM NOT GOING TO LET THE KKK RUN THE COUNTRY AND I AM NOT GOING TO CLUB BIG-EYED BABY SEALS IN THE HEAD JUST BECAUSE THE DLC SAYS TO, DAMMIT, I AM NOT I AM NOT I AM NOT!!!!!!!!!!" and you get hundreds of posts congratulating that person for making such a brave stand for justice, tributes to the bravery of the original poster, and the like. It's really very silly.

[mzmolly]

300. You are absolutely right.

And you can bet "Educated, white america" won't suffer from the exploitation of brown folk in the US. But, they may suffer if we outsource tech jobs to Timbuktu.

[rockymountaindem]

192. I don't want to deny anyone a better life

I want to protect the standard of living of American workers from being undercut by those who are willing to exploit immigrant labor, and I also want to protect those immigrants from being exploited.

Is that so bad?

[OnceUponTimeOnTheNet]

199. Get the Wall up.

Ban me if you want, Americans First, that is my view, so be it.
end of discussion.

[upi402]

202. "I am Cornholio, are you threatening me?"

[Hippo_Tron]

203. There's no easy answer to this problem

I'm not so much worried about immigrants taking American jobs or services. One thing that I have to note is that we're talking about a population of roughly 12 million "illegal" immigrants out of a country of almost 300 million people. Part of the problem is that they are largely condensed which puts a burden on certain states more than others. This is definately a result of their lack of legal status in this coutry.

I don't want a slave labor class in this country. Nobody should be paid $1 an hour when $5 an hour isn't even a living wage. We need to greatly expand legal immigration so that people can come here as citizens, not as slaves. There is less incentive to go to the US illegally if you can get in legally and get paid a fair wage.

Then comes the tough part. What do you do about the people here? Amnesty is an obvious solution, but does that encourage more illegal immigration? Bush's "guest worker" program is more crap to keep a cheap labor flowing into the country. Deportation of 12 million people is obviously not practical. Prosecuting busineses that hire illegal immigrants would work, but then you have millions of people here with their children with nowhere to go.

There's an episode of the West Wing where (coincidentally) Mexico's currency has collapsed and the Bartlet administration has decided to bail them out (this storyline was ripped from real-life events). Donna keeps telling Josh that she doesn't understand why the US should give a $30 billion bail out to Mexico when we have to many things in the US that the money could be spent on. Josh explains that there are so many things that we want to do but we can't. The United States bails out Mexico because we can and because it's the right thing to do.

I want people to be able to come to this country and have a better life as well. I know that it is the right thing to do. I'm just not sure if we can do it.

[leftofthedial]

206. can we all come stay at your house?

I'm seeking a better life, and your place sounds great!

I could maybe bring a side dish, or some beer.



edit: ;-)

[upi402]

207. Can I have the OP's car?

I demand to not be deprived some decent wheels!

[Cobalt Violet]

214. I'll take his health care plan. I'm getting desperate here. n/t

[RagingInMiami]

213. Anything with green chiles in it would be perfect

[leftofthedial]

215. I have some great Hatch chilis in the freezer

roasted 'em myself.

maybe a little posole.

[RagingInMiami]

221. I used to live in Deming

And when they would roast green chiles in the parking lot of the supermarket, the aroma would fill the whole town. Granted, Deming is a very small town.

[leftofthedial]

224. I've been to Deming often

believe it or not

You could pass gas and fill Deming with the aroma


but roasting chilis is way better.

[RagingInMiami]

225. Yep

I lived there for almost two years when I worked for the Las Cruces Sun-News as a reporter. I used to drive into Palomas, Mexico to buy my Tecate and meds.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

208. Halle-fucking-lujah!

Dadcom didn't raise any fools.

[rateyes]

211. Having been a number of times across the border...

in Reynosa and Nuevo Laredo, etc., one conclusion that I have come to about this matter is that we cannot make it bad enough here to keep Mexicans from those border towns from wanting to come here. The truth is that being homeless and sleeping in the streets of Laredo beats the hell out of being homeless and sleeping on the streets of Nuevo Laredo. And, one can see that from just standing in Nuevo Laredo and looking across the River.

The instinct for survival and making a better life for one's self and one's family is a powerful human instinct. IMO, it just makes sense that if we want to keep people from Mexico from coming to America and diluting the availability of jobs for citizens here, then we need to do something, not to make coming here less attractive, but to make staying in Mexico a more attractive alternative.

Same with abortion, IMO. If we want less abortions in our country (which I think even the most liberal person wants), the answer is not found in outlawing abortion, but in making carrying a fetus to term a more attractive option than aborting that fetus.

These are very difficult issues, with much emotion attached to them...but, somehow, some way we must seek solutions that are "win=win" rather than "win-lose." Wish I knew what those solutions were, and am willing to help find them. But, I won't get into a "I'm right and you're wrong" argument with anyone about it.

Just my two cents.

[Octafish]

219. THANK You, matcom.

The chimpministration -- that goes back to 22 November 1963 -- has had their way by dividing the good people of this nation every which way. Thanks to all their shenanigans, uh, actions -- from destroying public education to penuring the middle class to rigging elections to launching an illegal invasion in Iraq, the average Joe has no clue to who to blame for the stinking mess that is their life and has become America.

Well said, matcom. You are why I love DU.

[Nikia]

227. What my friend's family wanted as legal Mexican immigrants

Is a chance for their younger children all to graduate high school and to be able to pursue careers of their choice. Evidently most non rich people in their area did not attend high school. Even if their families were able to sacrafice for them, college would be difficult and was far from a guarentee of a professional level career.
I do not know if many illegal immigrants come for the same reason or not. Often their children cannot attend college since they are poor and cannot get financial aid like poor Americans can get to help pay tuition and their career oppurtunities may be limited by their non legal status. I suppose though that even high school is a big improvement as far as giving their children an oppurtunity to be educated.

[savemefromdumbya]

228. Still feel badly that we stole this land from the native Americans

We should not forget that we are all immigrants on somebody else's land

[upi402]

229. I hear ya. And think about Europe...pick an era and divide

It would be impossible to return Europe to its native peoples - and Asia too, hell Arabia and Africa... pretty much most of earth would be impossible to return. You'd have to pick a year I guess.

[norml]

231. They're slave labor. Those who employ them should be fined.

Guest Worker would only make their second class (slave status) official.

Floods of cheap labor from poorer countries take away jobs, and drive down the wages of lower to middle income Americans.

It's a lie that these are jobs Americans won't do.

These are jobs offered by employers who know they don't need to pay a little more, or treat their employees a little better, because they have a pool of cheap second class status slave labor from poorer countries.

There's no need to deport anyone.

Talk of any fence or wall is just a distraction from the workplace, where the battle against second class slave labor must be fought.

If they can't get hired, they'll go away.

Either make them citizens, or stop the hiring of them.

As citizens they won't be so easy to exploit.

If they can't be exploited, they won't be wanted.

If there really is a need for more citizens, allow more to apply to be citizens.

Ah, but only as Sub-Citizens are they wanted by those who exploit them.

That's what you have with the present illegal system, or with a Guest Worker program.

[stepnw1f]

235. Thank You

most appropriate.

[Balbus]

237. That brings the argument down to about the level of a 2nd-grader

You're better off letting the adults discuss this.

[Elwood P Dowd]

241. Adults are trying, but these children keep kicking and screaming

You simply cannot reason with children when it comes to emotional issues. The little children want to keep every little doggie they find and every little kitty they find. They want you to give up your job, and devote all your money and time to the helpless little critters. They believe there is an endless supply of money, food, water, and other resources to fill the house with homeless critters.

[KT2000]

242. Thank You!

:thumbsup:

[WinkyDink]

245. It's a little thing called "the law".

But whatever.

And it cuts both ways: If it's a borderless world you want, the you would agree that it's OKAY THAT WE ARE IN "IRAQ".
It ain't only Mexicans who want to go elsewhere for economic reasons.

[Bluebear]

255. When the US President obeys the law, get back to me. nt

[cap]

260. but if only the law worked the way it was supposed to

immigration is the hugest run around. If getting a drivers license worked the same way, you and I would be illegal drivers and we would be having massive protests when people tried to follow it. If getting a visa for agriculture work were as easy as getting an H1B visa for high tech workers, there wouldnt be illegal immigrants.

[fishwax]

257. we were born in america, and therefore entitled to comforts that

the rest of the world can only dream of.

:sarcasm:

[Tigress DEM]

262. Dead Rabbits vs Natives. Gangs of New York.

Tough movie. Makes me understand why the Irish in America drank and fought so much though.

[fishwax]

263. hands that built america

an underrated movie, imo ...

[Neil Lisst]

265. I hold these truths to be self-evident

I hold these truths to be self-evident

1. Illegal immigrants may be violating the law, but their plight and their desire to have decent, paying work is understandable, even admirable.

2. Illegal immigrants are driven primarily by the poor economies from their native countries, which poor economies result, not from lack of resources, but due to greed, corruption, and the inherent deficiencies of their own governments, economic systems, and their social systems.

3. The primary beneficiaries in America of illegal workers are large corporations and wealthy individuals, who exploit cheap labor for additional profit, and use illegal workers to drive down pay and benefits to American workers.

4. The primary victims of illegal workers in America are the blue collar workers whose wages are driven down, whose jobs are taken, and whose lives are forever diminished.

5. Some who oppose illegal immigration do so because they are racists, others are mere nationalists, others do so because their jobs and income are threatened, and some do so because they have greater devotion to the American citizens who are hurt by illegal competition.

6. One can oppose illegal immigration without supporting deportation of long term illegal immigrants.

7. The Democratic party cannot expect to have the votes of American blue collar workers if it fails to protect their interests.

8. Illegal workers, whatever their qualities, cannot vote, but those who feel strongly about illegal immigration who are Americans do vote.

9. Bush is pushing a guest worker/amnesty program which is surely going be a loser among American voters.

10. If Democrats fail to come down on the side of the American worker, we will lose again in November.

[Cobalt Violet]

275. This post deserve it's own thread.

It too good to be buried under this pile of crap.

[Neil Lisst]

281. In that case, I will. thanks.

[Inland]

285. I agree. Any rational discussion has to accept one though four

They are just facts derived from the meta-issue that not everyone can have everything, that the real world is not and cannot, in or outside of America, deliver unlimited wealth and opportunity to everyone, and that doesn't change with open borders.

Given one through four, five is a given, because with limits a choice has to be made. This OP, like many other posts, comes to the conclusion that racism is the ONLY reason to oppose immigration, because it doesnt accept (or acknowledge) one through four. If I really believed that unlimited immigration would creates it's own jobs, that wealth and income were available simply because someone is inside the borders and wants it, I too would think that Americans were just being spiteful. But I don't, because one through four are true.

As to the political effects, those too are a meta-issue. I'm not sure that there's a basis for progressive politics if one dodges the issue of who benefits from policy choices, and from turning the social compact into no more than an opportunity to bid on employment. The entire question of what it means to be an American, about what we owe each other, is diluted when someone who wants to earn money is just as much part of "my community" as someone who is here to stay and has hitched his future and the future of his family to the US, and to me.

A conservative sees the US as a big producer of goods and services to put inside your home, and of the government as a vendor of services and pensions in return for your taxes: a conservative, not a liberal, sees relationships between Americans as market relationships: a conservative, not a liberal, sees american as nothing more than what you can profit from it. Or at least, a certain type of conservative. That the liberals have picked up on the conservative concept of a good citizen as someone who wants to make money, nothing more, isn't going to be lost on the blue collar and no collar.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

290. Bingo...

you got it!

[newfaceinhell]

266. A citizen of a democracy

Who the fuck are you to go around spewing sanctimonious, self-important lectures that show a complete ignorance for other people's views and very real concerns, and a contempt for the underlying principle of democracy, the rule of law?

Oh, that's right, someone who can't be bothered to engage with real issues and clearly doesn't give a fuck about working class Americans and lives under the bizarre delusion that they all share your green pasture...

Shove it.

[Vinca]

268. Oh fuck it. I'm sick of this discussion. Open the damn borders

and give the country away. The whole thing. Who the hell cares? There's not much that's left worth saving after the past 6 years of Republican raping and pillaging. Let 'em have it.:mad:

[donheld]

269. Matcom, you see all the trouble you cause when you

step out of the lounge? :evilgrin::sarcasm: Actually great rant. I wonder if George Washington had a green card?:shrug::banghead:

[KitchenWitch]

276. Wow, excellent rant!

:yourock:

[caty]

279. I don't care how many people

come here from other countries, as long as they do it legally and pay taxes.

[entanglement]

283. Yer da best, man

Recommended
Thank you for kicking some sense into the Buchananites

from a lounge lizard

[mondo joe]

286. Who am I? I'm one of the people charged with making decisions about

this country - a voter. My interests include the state of this country in the short and long term, which means making responsible decisions.

That's who I am.

Democracy a good enough solution for you?

[QC]

287. Yeah, but what do you know?

You're just a melanin-deficient penised person!

[mondo joe]

288. Dude! No way!

My melanin is at least mostly intact.

On the other hand, since I disagree, I might have been unwittingly co opted or filled with self loathing or something else.

[QC]

289. Yes, that must be it.

If you disagree with the Open Borders Brigade, it can only be because you have base motives. That's why there's no real need for reasoned discussion of this issue: since there is only one correct position, and anyone who disagrees with it is by definition evil, sanctimonious, blustering name-calling is sufficient.

[Deja Q]

291. You mean, since they're to lazy to demand democracy in their own country?

And since they're not loyal to their own, what makes you think they'll be loyal to America?

That's as much a part of immigration as making a better life for one's self.

It's no different whatsoever than Americans vamoosing in favor of Europe.

BTW: Those supporting Bush in this "guest worker" crap are supporting exploitation and what's tantamount to slavery. Period.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

297. Yes, they are lazy. That's why they come here to work 18 hour days at

five cents an hour.


:eyes:

[mzmolly]

298. I think you misunderstand. The issue isn't about NOT wanting to afford

people the opportunity for a better life, it's about not wanting to see workers exploited. "Illegal immigration" creates an opportunity to exploit people from other countries and in turn Americans who are forced to compete with said workers. Blue collar America gets a "worse" life" when we don't look at the big picture. Also, your leaving employers who don't care about giving people a "better life" out of your rant Matcom. Do you think it's a great life to make 3 bucks an hour in a sweat shop working 12-16 hour days? That's the "better life" that many of these people are getting. They suffer so they can feed their families back home. Every human being understands THAT. It's horrible, it's sad, it's f*cked.

However, in order to truly give people "a better life" we need a strong middle-class and by encouraging shit wages and no benefits (via illegal immigration) none of us have that.

That said, I disagree with punishing immigrants who come here looking for a better life, I say open the damn borders, make citizenship easy and give them the rights of all Americans so we can all REALLY have that better life thing people talk about.

WE have to look at the big picture, no one can afford to draw a line in the sand.

The problem is not with immigration per-se, it's will the "illegal immigration = exploitation for all" issue.

[Jim Warren]

301. Who the fuck are to be the final arbiter

to what determines a "better life".

[The empressof all]

302. Locking

Flamebait.