man has sex with sleeping wife--charged with rape

[fishwax]

this story was posted in the lounge, but I agree with Katherine Brengle that this story belongs in GD.

Amazingly, about 25% of the online poll respondents believe that the fact that they're married means the man has rights to sexual relations anytime he wants.

link to story: http://www.coloradoan.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060329/NEWS01/603290302/1002

link to lounge thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x4960614

[WildEyedLiberal]

1. Erm, is there a link to the story that ISN'T from Free Republic?

Icky.

[fishwax]

3. whoops. meant to link to this

http://www.coloradoan.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060329/NEWS01/603290302/1002

[depakid]

45. Something tells me there's more to this story

than what's been written in Ft. Collins' local "news."

[fishwax]

48. such as ... ?

[LostinVA]

51. Yeah, what? Like, she didn't do her wifely duties, and this was

the only way he could get some... seriously... what?

[depakid]

65. Exactly

such as....

This doesn't ring true the way it sounds.

[radio4progressives]

46. good article.. so rare to see domestic violence and abuse covered

in the media, or to see justice rendered in favor of the victim.

[Clark2008]

2. I am so glad I'm not married to a couple of those guys

At least there is that ONE Freeper woman who's TRYING to explain.

Oh man.

[skids]

4. Friend of mine...

...says that on numerous occasions during one of his relationships, one or the other
of them would wake up in the morning to be told "wow that was great sex last night."
Problem being the other didn't remember, as they were asleep. Second problem being
that it was the one who was asleep that initiated it. So they were stuck wondering
whether it had ever happened with both of them sleeping.

Worries about proper contraception naturally ensued...

[BR_Parkway]

6. How great could it be if they didn't wake up?

[skids]

8. Or, if a tree falls in the forest and noone's around... n/t

[BR_Parkway]

25. then there's no one to see that it actually hit the ground, rather than

getting caught in another tree as it falls.

[fishwax]

9. seems like a fair question

:shrug:

[readmoreoften]

5. Why does the oral sex part creep me out more?

Having sex with your unconscious wife is rape. Performing oral sex on your unconscious wife is creepy. And also rape.

[darkmaestro019]

7. If there's no standing agreement that she doesn't mind that sort of thing

which I gather there was not, yeah. It's rape. My lover and I have had sleepysex in various forms, but he knows he has my absolute permission to molest me however he likes. Yes once does NOT mean yes forever. And the sort of meme that he OWNS her really makes me want to retch. And, not to TMI, but when we make love, I'm making love to HIM, not the body that he wears, and when he's sleeping I get the distinct feeling that he's not HOME in there, yanno? It's creepy. Objectifying.

[fishwax]

10. in this case, she had complained previously

about the fact that he took advantage while he slept. That's fucking sick, imo.

Sleepysex--i've had sex while sleepy, but never, afik, while actually asleep ...

[Katherine Brengle]

18. She told him on numerous occasions to stop.

It had happened quite a few times.

[VelmaD]

24. It never said he was performing oral sex...

on his wife. Imagine what it would be like if it was really the other way around. As I said below...if it was me he'd be lucky if I didn't bite it off.

[0007]

26. Ouch!!!! that's the best part of a man.

[Katherine Brengle]

40. I think it was him performing it on her --

and I believe it was in the original article, or at least the one that I read.

[Mythsaje]

11. Though I have to say this particular story is a bit...creepy...

My wife LIKES being awakened to sex. She's not the first woman I've been with who liked it, either. It's all about context.

What's really weird is when you wake up having sex and you don't know how it started.

[Katherine Brengle]

19. There is a difference...

between waking up to a penis inside you without your consent and waking up to your SO kissing you and trying to initiate something.

[Mythsaje]

35. Like I said...

it's all about context. People are weird when it comes to sex. What one person might like, another might find completely beyond the pale.

And, yes, it does come down to consent.

[LostinVA]

52. Dead on, KB

[Kailassa]

12. If you love the guy, what nicer way to be woken up?

And if you don't love the guy ... Well, I guess some people might do what I did for 8 increasingly miserable years, and stay together for the sake of the children.

My present S.O. knows that if I'm sleeping, it's only to dream about him anyway. ;-)

[Nobody]

15. If he loves you

he will respect your wishes. If you let him know that this is a pleasant thing, great. Go for it. But not everyone likes the same thing, so spouses do need to talk about what the limits are and then they must respect them.

[Kailassa]

49. Definitely.

If you did not know you were free to say no and have your wishes respected, it would sour the whole thing.

You can't say yes if you can't say no.

[KittyWampus]

56. "Oh, and Honey is it alright if I have sex with you while you're asleep?"

just one of the many issues couples need to hash out before sharing sex with one another. Though this is one that never came to mind before, I must admit. Thankfully, the men in my life have, for the most part, been gentlemen.

[Coexist]

61. but they did discuss it and she said NO, and he didn't stop.

[Nobody]

67. Exactly. He has no repect and no love n/t

[kevinbgoode]

100. Exactly. . .I'd be really p*ssed off . . .

especially if I was asleep, dreaming of Fabio offering me another hot "I can't believe it's not butter"-ed dinner roll....his chest gleaming like a shield of armor as his eyes . . .well, you know what I mean....and then to be awakened by the hubby instead?

[izzie]

13. I was sure I was on freerepublic

I am going to leave this one as is.

[Nobody]

14. One of these days it's going to happen to the wrong woman

And she, not being awake, is going to unthinkingly assume that the guy is a stranger breaking in and attacking her. Suppose she is a martial artist or someone who had experienced a break-in before? Anyone want to take bets on how many bones she breaks?

When you're not awake, your brain isn't firing on all cylinders and if you perceive an attack, you'll hit first and figure out who you hit second.

By the way, in many states, the rape laws are worded in such a way that no husband can ever be charged for rape, no matter what he does.

All sex acts must be consented to, whether individually or as a standing invitation.

[MountainLaurel]

16. Don't be surprised about that last issue

There are still state legislatures that are fighting the criminalization of marital rape.

[fishwax]

22. that's true ... i remember having a conversation

with a former boss of mine (the most conservative person I've ever met) in which he partially opposed laws outlawing marital rape. But while some states still don't recognize the possibility of marital rape, he's the only person I've ever heard actually argue against them, so I guess I wasn't expecting one out of four respondents to think something like this is okay, even though the woman had repeatedly requested that he not do that.

[Katherine Brengle]

17. I went lurking in FReeperville yesterday...

They had this story up and one guy used that argument -- that marriage is, by its very nature, consent. (Edit: To their credit, most of the freepers thought the guy was nuts--the one who was defending the rapist.)

I called bullshit there, and I call it on the 25% in that poll as well.

I am a married woman, and not only do I reserve the right to decide when and where and why I will have sex with my husband, but I expect him to do the same. I have no right to expect sex from another person, married or not, and no other person as a right to expect sex from me.

And NO ONE has a right to simply take it whenever they like.

Marriage isn't about uninterrupted access to sex.

Anyone who thinks it is missed the f*ing memo.

[Roland99]

20. He was just following: Dr. Hager's Family Values >>>>>>

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20050530/mcgarvey/2


Remember that story?

Dr. W. David Hager Bush appointee, member of Focus on the Family's Physician Resource Council, player in movement to ban the morning-after-pill. Had an adulterous affair, before divorcing his wife he sexually abused her, including sodomizing her in her sleep.

[fishwax]

21. wow, i missed that story

i wonder how I missed that one. That's just :grr::puke::puke::grr:

[Roland99]

38. It was pretty hot news last year.

[VelmaD]

23. this guy is a pig...

On top of everything else he took pictues of her while she was asleep...I wonder what he did with them. I hope they put his ass in jail for a long time. And frankly, if some guy woke up in the middle of oral sex with me without my consent...he'd be lucky not to get it bitten off.

[msgadget]

27. It's creepy and inconsiderate...

especially considering how many times it happened and her expressed feelings. What was this guy's explanation - I need a little somethin' before I can sleep? She's so cute when she's sleeping? I like dormant bodies better...?

[Canuckistanian]

111. Necrophilia

These creeps like women pretending to be dead.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

28. I Find Nothing Wrong With Spouses Doing Sexual Acts While One Was Sleeping

I find nothing wrong with that concept, and agree with several in this thread that many partners enjoy and get turned on by such, and in my opinion that is in no way rape whatsoever.

What is rape though, is when a partner makes it absolutely clear that they do not want such acts to occur, and communicate clearly that when they are sleeping, their answer is no. No means no, married or not. In this case, (though I haven't heard the man's defense yet), the husband was allegedly warned and explicity told to not engage in the behavior but he continued to force his will on her anyway. So if the alleged allegations are true, and he was in fact warned by her, then yes, it was rape.

[LisaL]

41. Since marriage does not imply consent, one spouse having

sex with the other sleeping spouse is indeed committing rape (according to the law) considering that spouse has no idea whether the sleeping spouse would consent to sex or not.
Maybe you find nothing wrong with it, but legally it is rape. Obviously most cases like that do not get reported.
But one can not presume consent if a person is unable to give consent, even if that person is your spouse.

[Kailassa]

53. People can consent to have their organs donated after death ...

and you say a spouse can't know if their partner consents?

There is such a thing as "beforehand", and many people will make their wishes known then.

And it's not always a black and white thing; my S.O. and I are so cuddly together the boundaries between dreaming and doing can get very fuzzy.

[LisaL]

59. When you consent to donate your organs after death, you

have it in writing.
You sign a form saying "please use my organs for so and so".
Do you and your spouse have such a form for sex while sleeping?

[Kailassa]

125. No, but if you have not given written consent,

your organs can still be used if your family convey wishes you gave verbally.

Terry Shiavo didn't sign a form to state her wishes, yet the wishes her husband conveyed to the court on her behalf had legal standing.

When my S.O. starts something while I'm asleep, it's not rape, because he knows I like that. If he did not know I liked it and did it anyway, that would be rape.

[Nobody]

68. Never assume what someone else wants

You and your SO might be perfect soulmates. Congratulations. But the woman in the story had said NO repeatedly that NO she did not find this pleasurable, NO she did not find this enjoyable, NO she did not like it. NO, don't do it again.

He ignored her repeatedly-stated wishes. Several times.

Just because there is a marriage license does not mean she signed away her right to say NO to sex when she doesn't want to. If she agreed ahead of time that YES being woken up for sex is OK, then fine. She has the right to rescind that permission at any time. Since she DID say NO, her husband is obligated to respect that.

A marriage license is not a slip of paper that takes away from a woman the right to choose when she will have sex and when she will not.

If she says NO and that NO is not respected, it's rape. End of story.

[Kailassa]

116. I'm not assuming anything.

I said people can consent before death to donate organs after death to illustrate the fallacy in an argument that people cannot consent to sleeping sex.

The obvious implication is that they can also refuse permission beforehand for either.

What this is all about is treating people with respect. It is neither loving nor respectful to have sex with someone without their agreement. It can be both loving and respectful to make love to a sleeping person if you know beforehand they would love you to wake them up that way.

As for charging this guy with rape, I'm all for that, and I hope she also gets out of the relationship and finds someone who will respect her wishes.

[progressivebydesign]

75. Sorry.. but screwing someone asleep is just using them as a receptacle.

An unresponsive sleeping sexual partner is just a.. well.. pardon my french.. a place to stick your penis. A woman should have TOTAL control over her own body when she's asleep. That is the only time that women are ALLOWED to be vulnerable and unguarded, when they are asleep. If a woman cannot feel safe and unmolested while you sleep in your own bed, then she needs to find another living situation. It's one thing for someone to snuggle up and see if they can rouse their partner in an amorous fashion.. it's QUITE another to fuck them in their sleep and take photos. Geez.. are women more than just a place for penises??

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

97. Oh Blah Blah.

Talk about dramatic. My post was saying under normal circumstances in loving marriages where, ya know, the two people actually fucking love each other and may be turned on to wake up that way. Not sure what kind of marriage you're in or not and how bad it must be, but in the context I stated I think the woman feels safe just fine and doesn't want nor need a different living situation. And as far as just a place to stick your penis, give me a break. I obviously meant in my post that it would just be done at first with the intent the other partner would awake aroused and pleasantly surprised. I think you really have a flawed perception on what love is, what marriage is, and what intimacy between two partners in love and married is like. Lastly, you said it's quite another thing to fuck them in their sleep and take photos. No shit sherlock. But I never said that was ok. In fact, it was fairly evident in my post that when done respectfully it is perfectly ok, but that when done in the way this scumbag guy did it is disgusting, wrong, and rape. So quit your damn preaching.

[TahitiNut]

29. Would it be OK if she went to sleep during copulation?

Or would that also be considered rape? :eyes:

[malaise]

32. My thought exactly n/t

[fishwax]

33. she says she asked him on several occasions not to

have sex with her while she slept.

[LisaL]

43. If you go strictly by law, even that doesn't matter.

Performing sexual acts on a sleeping person is rape (legally). Even if that person is your wife.

[LostinVA]

54. What's that supposed to mean?

Sex without consent is rape... period.

This shouldn't be made light of.

[Heidi]

57. This isn't a hypothetical situation.

But this is: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=812480&mesg_id=815000

[Cocoa]

64. obviously yes

this is about consent, and there's no consent issue in your example.

[JitterbugPerfume]

30. sex without consent

is rape case closed

[omega minimo]

31. Boys, imagine someone sticking a dick up your ass while you're asleep

that may help some of ya'll "get it."

:hi:

[MountainLaurel]

34. What Omega said

:applause:

[Katherine Brengle]

39. well done, omega, as always!

[Heddi]

44. Oh no, see, that's different

because..uh........it just is

[omega minimo]

70. Uh ........uh .....................

Ya gotta wonder if SOME men think women are blow-up dolls and don't really understand how the female body works.

[Bluerthanblue]

74. no need to wonder

i've known a few- but it also went beyond sex- it was the egocentric mentality that all humans are prey to- It is pretty hard for a wife to rape her husband though- therein lies the disconnect.

[LostinVA]

55. Good point

[Higans]

118. Sounds like fun... but seriously, I just asked my S.O. if it would be ok

No problem with it at all.......

So, What if the guy in this story does it in his sleep too??? what if it's all a sub conscious thing???

[NickB79]

36. Was he on Ambien?

Sleep-eating, sleep-driving, now sleep-humping?

Seriously though, I have woken up having sex with my girlfriend on numerous occasions, and apparently I was the one who initiated it and was doing all the work, so to speak. We've discussed it, and she's ok with it, but stories like this always freak me out.

Even if we discussed it and she said "No, do not have sex with me while I sleep", I don't think I could stop short of sleeping in a seperate bed, for the simple fact that I am asleep when I start it and not in control of my body at that point.

[McCamy Taylor]

37. "No" is "No" in the eyes of the law. Title of thread misleading.

Should have said "Man had sex w/ sleeping wife over her objections, charged with rape"

[LisaL]

42. She was sleeping. How would she say no? WTF should the

title say it when it's not what happened.

[VelmaD]

63. read the article...

she had repeatedly told him not to have sex with her while she was sleeping

[LisaL]

94. I have read the article. And you don't get the point.

If you have sex with a sleeping person, that's rape, because you can not assume that person would consent. Regardless of what the person says afterwords, consent can not be assumed at the time that person is sleeping and you decide to have sex.

[Heidi]

50. Having sex with _anyone_ over their objections is rape.

The thread title is perfectly clear. What is it you're not understanding about this rape case?

[radio4progressives]

47. Most of the Responses in this Thread over look the Violent Assault

charges..

This woman has brought charges of domestic abuse and rape. enough said, what's to discuss?

[bleedingheart]

58. Marriage doesn't result in one partner being a sex slave

while some people may think it does...it does not.


Marriage is the willing partnership of two people and forcing yourself upon your partner is rape.

[Coexist]

60. the article states that she expressed her non-consent for this type of sex

several times in the past. He continued to do so. What a controlling creep.

[LizW]

62. Here's what is weird about this story

How does she sleep through the beginnings of sex? Especially when it is something that she doesn't want to happen, and she has told him not to do it. She must be one sound sleeper to stay asleep during the preliminaries. Either he's drugging her, or he just nails her with no foreplay whatsoever, in which case he most certainly is a pig.

[LisaL]

89. I wonder if he gave her a little something something to make

her sleep better. I recall a case where a co-worker of a victim used beer tranquilizer on a woman for years, so he could have sex with her when she was out of it.

[sendero]

66. I refer you to the Brian Eno song..

..."What Actually Happened?" :)

Marriage is not consent to sex. On the other hand, I know guys who are married, in their prime (30s/40s) whose wife will give it up every couple weeks.

I'd dump my wife in a heartbeat over that (barring health issues or somehting like that) because once it gets to that point she clearly is no longer in love anyway. Why waste time?

[omega minimo]

69. Guys who express it as "wife will give it up" every couple weeks

may be part of the reason those women aren't into it.

Wonder if that ever occurs to them "in their prime." :think:

[sendero]

72. Trying to use..

... language that is acceptable to everyone is sometimes difficult.

Let state it more simply, so you can either address my point or forget about it.

If you are a married man who is totally sexually frustrated, time to move on. If your wife loved you she wouldn't let that happen.

Better?

[progressivebydesign]

82. Bullshit.

You think that just because a woman isn't "giving it up" as often as the husband wants is a sign that she should be kicked to the curb cuz she doesn't love him anymore?????

I know TONS of women who are just too fucking exhausted for sex with the husband, whom they love. Between trying to have a career, raise kids, keep the house, have any type of personal interests, caring for extended family, and just living.. they are tired. I can only imagine that you are either in your teens, or marriage has passed you by because of your total lack of understanding and respect for women.

[Kailassa]

117. As a woman, I agree with you.

I was in a marriage for years in which my husband showed no interest in sex, and my health and self esteem suffered terribly. When I left him I looked 40, felt 50, and believed I'd become totally asexual. After 3 months making up for lost time with a guy who'd been through something similar the lines had vanished from my face and I was laughing and energetic again.

Ideally marriage shouldn't be about rights and obligations. It should be about being together because you love each other enough to want to look after each other and make each other happy. If you love someone, making them happy makes you happy, provided they love and care for you the same way.

But the sad fact is, despite all the efforts to "preserve the sanctity of marriage," too few couples have those sort of relationships.

[Jigarotta]

113. no kidding...

sounds so.... um, yaknow, romantic and all. but I guess there are ones that think of women as a masturbation receptical like the sleeper creeper story. feh.

[progressivebydesign]

81. Respectfully.. I have to say... that...

you're a total caveman. You'd dump your wife if she only "give it up" every couple weeks??? I'm try to be nice, but you're.. testing my restraint. Are you sure you're on the right message boad? This is DU.

[Higans]

122. Psst....30's/40's are past your prime for a male buddy.

[Bluerthanblue]

71. this sounds crude

but, that is what his own hands are for-
If all he wants is his own satisfaction- he can supply the recepticle-

as a survivor of CSA and rape, i'm appalled at people who advocate the use of a womans body as nothing more than a choice of holes to be poked at- then tossed aside like a used rubber-

this pisses me off no end-

[sendero]

73. I'm appalled that a woman..

... would dump a guy because he is out of work, but it happens all the time.

Nobody should bother getting married if they don't understand that meeting their partner's sexual needs is part of the bargain. Seriously.

[Bluerthanblue]

76. meeting someones needs

is something one does CONSIOUSLY- and truly 'good sex' isn't a 'I need to get my rocks off' kind of thing- it is a mututal activity. Giving someone pleasure can be better than orgasim, when the situation is right- but having someone use you like a 'thing' is repulsive- and demeaning.

I'm not appalled at the concept of a woman leaving a man that refuses to work- who freeloads, or lives like a parasite off another- I would be bothered if a woman only looked at her mate as a source of money- and when he lost his job she just dumped him, without looking back- but that isn't what is at issue here-

You don't 'own' your mate- and you cannot violate his or her body without their consent- that is why domestic violence is a two way street- raping your partner is not part of the 'bargan'

[sendero]

80. I never said..

... that you "own" your partners body. I said that if you partner does not want to share his/her body with you, you have the wrong partner.

I'm in no way excusing the guy in the OP. That's absurd.

[Bluerthanblue]

84. I don't understand your

point here then. If you are saying that a couple that never has sex because one partner doesn't desire it, and the other does, is in trouble, and could very well end in divorce, I agree- Some counselling would be worth trying- But when you equate marriage with 'meeting your partners sexual needs' as 'part of the 'bargan' then you're off in left field.

My partner might want a threesome, or 'want' to engage in sexual activities that I'm not comfortale with, or vice a versa, if that need is so overwhelming that he or I need to violate each others bodies, or 'comfort levels' then I'd really have to question the 'love' or 'caring' that exists between us- a partnership is something that requires compromise- Demanding what you want when you want it and then taking it isn't my idea of a partnership- or a relationship.

If you believe the guy in the OP overstepped his bounds, we are in agreement- So, excuse my ignorance, but what is your point???- I don't mean this sarcasticly, I can be kind of 'dense' sometimes- Have I missed something?

[sendero]

91. Thank you..

... for sensibly actually READING what I said. I EXPLICITLY said that "marriage is not consent", which I will interpret for those who cant follow, a man DOES NOT have the right to force himself on his wife or anyone else.

A man is NOT ENTITLED to force his wife into some sort of activities like extra partners or acts she doesn't want to do either.

What a married man SHOULD HAVE A RIGHT TO is to not live in sexual frustration. Nor should a wife. I fail to see what is so damn wrong with that position.

[progressivebydesign]

78. meeting your partners sexual needs part of the bargain???

Really?? Wow.. I didn't realize that sex-on-demand was in my marriage contract. Oh brother...

[sendero]

79. That doesn't mean..

... sex on demand. It doesn't mean living in sexual frustration either.

[WindRavenX]

83. so it's ok to have sex with your wife AGAINST HER WILL?

Disgusting. :puke:

[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WindRavenX]

88. Your attitudes are disgusting

You have said that sexual frustration is not part of marriage.

So what rights do you have to allievate that, huh?

My body isn't something to just be used for my partner's gratification. Even if you're "frustrated". Get a Hustler, but if I don't want to have sex, you have no right to it. Simple as that.

[Name removed]

92. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WindRavenX]

95. LOL, because I have respect for my body?

So by your logic, I should just let you have your way even when I don't want to have sex?

:rofl:

[sendero]

96. NO...

.. but I've explained myself several times here, if you don't get what I'm saying you just aren't capable of getting it!

[WindRavenX]

98. Since I'm so dense, why don't you explain it for me?

Because it sure seems like you seem like a man has a right to sex on demand without regard to the wishes of his partner.

[sendero]

101. No..

... a man has a right to expect to have some level of initimacy with his wife, as does a wife with her husband.

That level does not rise to "every time s/he wants it", nor does it fall to "if I feel like it once a month, you should just be happy and accept it".


My whole point here was "why is this guy doing his wife while she sleeps? Is he a perv, or was he just that frustrated? Now he has committed a crime. Better for him and her had he just left the relationship and found someone who would not leave him that frustrated.

[WindRavenX]

103. unfortunatley, it's not that simple

There are many disorders and diseases and emotional issues that can arrise that can put one's libido in a vaccum. The ideal situation is of course to be with someone who has comparible sexual appetites, but even then, that's not a constant. And when things change, that's when problems arise, and why I take offense to your attitude.

[sendero]

106. Dear..

... please, I'm not a kid and I'm not a dumbass.

You should know about your spouses sexual appetites before you get married. I agree, a serious mismatch here is a recipe for disaster.

Being in my 50's and having been married a few times, and I'm telling YOU that when a woman's interest sex drops off it CAN BE health related, it CAN BE depression, it CAN BE changes that all of us experience as we age and it CAN BE that she no longers cares enough about you to give a damn about your needs. And IMHO, the last CAN BE is about the most common.

And at that point you have to ask yourself, why am I married to this person?

Let me ask you a question. I have no idea if you are married or in a LTR, but just for instance I assume you have been at some point in your life.

If you male partner starts treating you dismissively, not wanting to spend any time with you, offering you no affection, tenderness, none of the things that most women would like to have from their partner.... what do you do?

[WindRavenX]

108. Counseling

You have to find out if the change in behavior is the result of something like depression, in which case the loss of libido is bareable. My partner has a much lower libido than I do-- I have a hyper libido. I deal with it because I love him.
But sometimes the loss of affection is the result of something that therapy or counseling cannot make better-- in which case it would be best for both parties to go their seperate ways.

[sendero]

109. And on that note..

... I'm in total agreement with you.

A marriage is worth trying to save. But both parties in a marriage have a right to get certain needs met. That does not mean "perfectly", that is impossible and would be boring anyway.

[Fleshdancer]

93. what are you proposing?

What should the woman in this article do?

[sendero]

99. I don't blame her..

... for pressing rape charges. Not only would it be wrong in any circumstance, but apparently she had explicitly told him "no". She's not doing anything wrong here.

Ok, here's a simple distillation of my point: "Guys, if you are so frustrated that you are thinking about doing your wife while she sleeps, have an affair or leave the marriage instead."

[Fleshdancer]

90. A man doesn't "need" to rape his wife

and if his sexual WANTS aren't being met, then he can leave her. It takes two people to make a strong marriage and if this guy would stop raping his wife, then perhaps she would feel safe and respected enough to invite him into her body. At this point, why would she want to meet his sexual wants?

[sendero]

102. I think we can probably all agree..

.... that this was not a healthy marriage :)

[sheelz]

107. Marriage is more than relieving one's sexual frustrations.

Marriage is not a bargain.

[LeftyMom]

110. That goes both ways

Sometimes one party or the other needs sleep more or just has no interest at all. The loving thing to do in that situation is not to pressure, guilt or force that person into sex, but to do a little DIY job and go to sleep.

Sometimes relationships have disparate sex drives (I've been on either end of that phenomenon and it's no fun in either case.) That's just part of life.

[TahitiNut]

112. I have a problem when ANYONE uses the phrase "sexual needs"

I reject the implication that our drives and desires are "needs" - when they're actually "wants." Lust, no matter how intense, are still "wants" and not "needs". Indeed, it becomes even more suspect to me when the term "needs" is used in conjunction with some implied duty of another to "satisfy" them - unless we're talking about the very real needs of an infant.

I reject the notion that we're somehow 'incomplete' as adults, requiring some supplementation or accessorizing to become complete human beings. The people I've found most emotionally healthy in the most emotionally healthy relationships are those who see themselves as cooperative and independent and 'whole' human beings rejoicing in the love and respect for both themselves and another. I've made the mistake myself of choosing a mate based on my own perceived shortcomings - and found myself embedded more in codependency than inter-dependency (a trust relationship). But I don't expect this to be understood by many or most. It's the fashion, I guess.


On edit: In my view, the false paradigm of 'needs' frames the act of making love to something more akin to a bowel movement - equating another human being as a means to the end of self-satisfaction than as an end in themselves - the very heart of loving and respecting another.

[Swamp Rat]

119. great post n/t

[Kailassa]

121. For a person with high libido, sex can be a need.

However nobody has a right to inflict their needs on another person.

Anyone for whom sex is a genuine need should learn ways to handle the problem themselves.

Their needs are their own responsibility, not their partner's.

[progressivebydesign]

77. Perfect post, Bluerthanblue. Couldn't say it better. n/t

[Fleshdancer]

85. What part of " TO LOVE AND TO HONOR" is so hard to understand?

I can't imagine my husband disrespecting me in this way. Then reading on this thread that people on FR are condoning the rape is sick. Oddly enough, those are the same people who use rape rooms as a reason to invade Iraq. It's mind blowing to know that there are people who want to decide when rape is ok and what it isn't. Sanctity of marriage my ass.

:puke:

[SoCalDem]

87. two words....separate bedrooms..

oh.. and a door that locks...


or maybe a divorce..

[LisaL]

104. He might go to prison for it. In which case his cellmates

better be careful.

[laundry_queen]

105. holy crap.

There was a lady on one of my message boards who posted last year that her dh was doing this to her and was it wrong, because she hated it and wanted it to stop, and she asked him to stop but he didn't see anything wrong with it.
He was also abusive.
All of us are "yeah it's wrong! It's rape! Especially if you already told him not to!" She sort of disappeared from said message board, although she reappears rarely to make totally generic comments.
As far as I know, she's still with him, unless this is him, in which case, thank god!
ETA: For those who asked how a woman could sleep through the beginning stages: she said she'd wake up as soon as there was penetration, but he wouldn't stop. So, no she didn't sleep through it.
Course this might not be the same in this case.

[Generic Other]

114. How embarassing to be so sexually exciting you can't even wake a sleeper!

That does not sound like Prince Charming to me! YAWN.

[Kailassa]

124. A friend's husband was boasting at a party

that he'd had sex with her the night before for 4 hours nonstop. His mates were amazed and asked her if that was true.
"I wouldn't know," she said. "I was asleep."

His mates never let the idiot live that one down.

[wicket]

115. Barf

:puke:

[Swamp Rat]

120. Maybe those 25% are themselves rapists?

The number of REPORTED rapes of women by men is alarming... and appalling. Why is this not considered an ongoing national DISASTER?!?

Why is there no "War Against Rape?"

[Zookeeper]

123. All he really needs is a blow-up doll. n/t