Flag waving gets ugly at Colorado school

[Roon]

LONGMONT, Colo. -- More than two dozen students walked out of Skyline High School Friday morning to protest what they say is a ban that doesn't allow the American flag to be flown on school grounds.

The principal said that the ban isn't just on American flags -- it's on all flags.

Several students who walked out of class Friday said that they were upset that Mexican flags can be waved around but that American flags couldn't. They said that school officials confiscated their American flags because they have become inflammatory because of recent immigration issues.

"When the immigration laws came out we noticed that a lot of Hispanics were waving Mexican flags and what we were thinking to ourselves is like, isn't the immigration law to stay in the country? You want to stay in America, correct? So I said, for every Mexican flag, you should have an American flag right next to it. So a few people went out and started waving American flags, and that's where everything bridged out," said Skyline student R.J. Fogal. "That's when they started telling us that we can't wave American flags, there's going to be no flags today, or everyone is going to be suspended -- whoever carries a flag."
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/8385889/detail.html

[pretzel4gore]

1. so many have died under the Wastika

maybe that's why it's gained such distinction(?)

[marmar]

2. Oy vey!

Just like that little freakazoid who complained about the teacher. There seem to be quite a few reich wing nut youth in Colorado.

[Hobarticus]

3. OMG....the poor, maligned, disenfranchised majority

Who will hear their cries?

:puke:

[slaveplanet]

4. Flag Code

I think it is law for the school to display the flag

The principal said that the ban isn't just on American flags -- it's on all flags.

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode04/usc_sec_04_00000006----000-.html

(e) The flag should be displayed daily on or near the main administration building of every public institution.
(f) The flag should be displayed in or near every polling place on election days.
(g) The flag should be displayed during school days in or near every schoolhouse.

The question is...do we still want to be a nation of laws?

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law?

[alphafemale]

6. I think it was referring to flags carried by individuals.

But the article was poorly worded.

[slaveplanet]

9. I understand that

But the principal has no legal power to ban all flags.

And threatening childrens permanent record over it is a tad heavy-handed.

[Solo_in_MD]

13. Welcome to public school administrators

[xchrom]

7. we change laws all the time.

and may i remind you of the boston tea party.

[misternormal]

21. "Do what you will, and harm none"

[VelmaD]

34. There is a difference between "should"...

and "shall". There are no penalties for violating the flag code. Compliance with it is not mandatory. Otherwise king george would have been in big trouble for signing flags for autograph seekers. And the flag code bars using the flag on clothing...and that gets done all the time.

[fasttense]

5. It's a shame that people who respect the US flag

are called names by people who post on DU. I'm as liberal as they get and would never support a ban on burning the US flag (because I see it as free speech) but come on folks, just because you honor the US flag does not make you a Nazi.

[Minnesota Libra]

10. I'm with you on this one - I'm very liberal on everything but I do........

....part company with liberals on the issue of illegal aliens and our flag. People have died for no other reason that to protect our way of life and our freedoms and more will die in the future for the same reasons. So who are we - setting here enjoying a few freedoms - to say their sacrifice was nothing. I don't have a problem with legal immigration but I've got a huge problem with illegal aliens and anyone thinking that our flag is somehow subservient to a foreign flag.

In voicing my views on illegal aliens and some basic respect for our flag I've been called everything despicable - just because I agree totally with Lou Dobbs on this one issue. Other than this I'm truly liberal.:shrug:

[Cobalt Violet]

11. It's just unbelievable.

No wonder we're in the shit we're in.


:patriot: :patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot:

[Tulum_Moon]

14. I totally agree with you

I am also as liberal as the come and I will fly my american flag with pride!
Call me any names you want! I am a Mexican who is a US citizen and I love the American Flag!

[fishnfla]

17. with you eom

[mondo joe]

20. I'm with you. I don't even give a damn about the flag, myself,

and I would certainly oppose any anti-flag-burning legislation. But there are certain things that are inescapable - like it's just reasonable that a US school fly a US flag.

[manic expression]

24. It's a natural reaction

in Spain, Germany and other places where fascism has been felt first-hand, flying the flag is seen as supporting those wrongs, it is seen as jingoistic and a sign of reactionary beliefs. This is not inaccurate, as Spaniards who fly the Spanish flag oftentimes do it as a show of support for the Franco regime (a Spaniard told me this). I cannot disagree with this, and I do feel somewhat suspicious of people who do fly the American flag, as it is the first sign of a reactionary. Not to say that all who fly American flags are reactionary, but many most assuredly are.

[cornermouse]

8. The principal was trying to stop the upcoming fight before it began.

Two groups of hotheads each waving their own flags, next thing you know you've got a fight.
Two countries of hotheads each waving their own flags, next thing you know you've got a war.

Same thing. Different scale. Wise Principal.

[Solo_in_MD]

18. No he is just another spineless bureaucrat which infest our schools

The US flag should fly at the school, with the state flag as an option. It is long established practice and in the flag code (see an earlier post). No reason to take it down. If it was football season, would he ban it and the playing of the national anthem at the games? His use of the "for the safety of the children" is a lot like the arguments used for much of the Patriot Act, and just as specious.

Within limits, he has the authority to limit what students can display and do on campus. Excessive displays of anything can be curtailed. Is he going to ban flag sticker on cars in the parking lot? Bear in mind that flag displays can reasonably seen as political speech.

The correct response would have been to fly the flag on the school pole and tell the students to stand down on private displays. As it is, he will get flack from everyone from the American Legion to the ACLU and deservedly so. If he continues with this nonsense, his contract should not get picked up for the next year. Our schools desperately need quality leadership, not timid idiots at the helm.



Edited for spelling and grammer

[cornermouse]

27. I repeat. Which is more important? A piece of fabric or the kids?

My vote is to do what it takes to keep the kids intact. I'm sure the principal will restore the American flag to the flagpole after things have cooled off. I suspect in the meantime, the principal and teachers will be working to find a way to defuse the whole thing.

Football season? "Stand down?" Sheesh.

The man was demonstrating quality leadership. The easy thing would have been to cave in and try to repair the kids, school, and community after the riots and fights. Its really unfortunate you can't see that.

[Solo_in_MD]

31. The kids, but what you advocate makes things worse, not better

My vote is to do what it takes to keep the kids intact. I'm sure the principal will restore the American flag to the flagpole after things have cooled off. I suspect in the meantime, the principal and teachers will be working to find a way to defuse the whole thing.

You keep the kids "intact" by reminding them of disciplinary standards and enforcing them evenly. No taunting or harrasing other students, no cutting class for demonstrations. Make it just another day. The focus is to keep the distractions to eduation outside the building. One defuses bombs, not schools or attitudes.

Football season? "Stand down?" Sheesh.
Its a classic high school activity...and a great example. No one ever messes with football.

The man was demonstrating quality leadership. The easy thing would have been to cave in and try to repair the kids, school, and community after the riots and fights. Its really unfortunate you can't see that.

What he did was capitulate and invoke the educational equivalent of the patriot act. That is weakness at its worst. He is also on shaky legal grounds, depending how far he takes it. The latter is hard to discern since the media reports did not really supply details.

This is not something you "defuse" since its not a bomb. It something you direct to insure that it is just another day/week in school. Nothing more. When you bring disruptive events on to campus, you are asking for trouble. As I former teacher, I seen worse than this handled well and poorly. This was a travesty, but the only real damage will be to the principal due to his demonstrated inability to properly lead and manage his building.

[cornermouse]

32. These are not elementary students.

These are high school students. At this age, blind obedience doesn't work well.

It isn't the military either. Not that the military's approach works all that well either. When you really stop to look at it, the military's dependence on blind obedience and outside discipline just isn't as good as self discipline.

[Solo_in_MD]

33. That is correct, which is why the correct course of action is to

insist that they leave it out of the building. If they can not, they are no better than elementary school students. Remind them of the rules (no harassment etc), and hold them to it. Staff needs to acknowledge the existence of an external issue, but then remind students of how they are supposed to behave..."I know there is a lot of things going on off campus about XYZ, but in this classroom/school, we focus on topic/education. Turn to page 99 and begin..." That is not rote mindless obedience. That is expecting and invoking the self discipline students are supposed to have at that level. Expecting less than that demeans the students and rewards immature and non-disciplined behavior. If the the principal is really concerned about the children, that is the course of action he should have taken.

[cornermouse]

40. Look. We're absolutely not going to agree on this.

I would remind you that a flag and the values that it is intended to convey are basically nothing without the people agreeing of their own free will. Clearly we have different values. As such, there's just no point in continuing this.

[proud2BlibKansan]

19. I agree

If he had let these kids fight, he would be criticized for that. It's a can't win for losin argument.

I come down on the side of doing whatever it takes to prevent violence in schools.

[mondo joe]

23. Maybe, but it's a piss poor solution.

Please note, of the 2 flag waving groups only one was waving the flag of the school's nation.

Let the school fly the damn flag and make the damn kids behave.

[cornermouse]

26. Which is more important? A piece of fabric or the kids?

The principal made the right decision.

[mondo joe]

35. False choice. The kids are in no way sacrificed by establishing

and enforcing a fair policy.

[cornermouse]

39. The kids and their future is what the flag is supposed to represent.

Valuing the flag more than the kids safety and wellbeing is a clear indication of where your values lie. Given that fact, there's nothing to be gained by arguing. Have a nice day.

[mondo joe]

41. No one suggested valuing the flag over the kids. Please don't make things

up like that.

The kids' safety can be protected through sensible policies and enforcement.

No kid needs or deserves to have anything shoved in the face, or be harassed.

It's a good opportunity to do some education around pluralism and civility.

[Nikki Stone1]

43. Have you ever taught in a public high school in a diverse area?

I have to tell you that passions get inflamed over all sorts of things, especially symbolic items. When the heat gets turned up for whatever reason, there is a funny kind of energy that settles all over the school--it's a state of tension where you're waiting for something to give. And it can often lead to violence.

The principal did right in my opinion. Turn down the heat, ban all the flags, at least for the time being, and try to keep the kids calm.

[Nikki Stone1]

44. DUPE: self delete

nt

[Nikki Stone1]

42. I agree with cornermouse. The principal was trying to avoid violence.

You ban a few flags until the furor dies down. Unless you have taught in a diverse school when passions get inflamed, you have no idea how hot the heat can get. Lots of people can get hurt in the process, including teachers who try to stop fights.

The temperature on immigration (especially Mexican and Latina immigration) was turned up really high this week to cover Junior's sorry ass in the Iraq debacle. Junior's selfish need to hide from his own mistakes in the PR world resulted in many kids feeling threatened with deporation for themselves, their parents or others like them. That kind of desperation can lead to hair-trigger reactions and violence with the right kind of provocation. A bunch of kids waving American flags COULD have been perceived by SOME immigrant kids as being against their very presence in the US, no matter how the kids themselves might have meant the flag waving.

The principal was absolutely correct here. Keeping a lid on the anger and preventing violence was far more important than a bunch of little pieces of cloth. Flame if you must, but I have taught in schools when rage has risen to the top and all you need is one kid to react.

[TahitiNut]

12. American flags are inflammatory? I knew they were flammable, but ....

:silly: :dunce:

[Tulum_Moon]

15. Sam can be said about all flags

[Eugene]

16. The flags were being waved in people's faces.

I respect the U.S. flag too, but abusing it as a tool of intolerance
is as inflammatory as flag burning.

Flag Waving Banned at Colorado School (AP)

<snip>
Skyline High School Principal Tom Stumpf said American flags were brazenly waved
in the faces of Hispanic students and in one case a Mexican flag was thrown
into the face of another student.

"When it involves the American flag and its abuse in vilifying other people, we simply
will not tolerate it," Stumpf said. "They were using the symbol derisively as misguided
patriotism."

[mondo joe]

22. Simple solution - it's the behavior, not the flag that's the problem.

If a student dumped milk on another student would the school prohibit milk?

[slaveplanet]

25. yep

I think they would prohibit milk...this is all about slave training.

rule by decree,zero tolerance, meter out harsh threats, eliminate representation.

[Nikki Stone1]

45. False analogy: Milk is not, by its nature,a politically symbolic rallying

point. THe principal was correct to ban all flags to keep down the level of violence.

[slaveplanet]

28. please reread

I respect the U.S. flag too, but abusing it as a tool of intolerance

The American flag was being used as a tool of representation


a Mexican flag was thrown
into the face of another student.

It was the Mexican Flag that was being used as the tool of intolerance.


The principal went with intolerance by decree.

now children whom were not even involved in the assualt will have to peel those stickers off their lunch box.

[Eugene]

29. Both flags were being misused.

Again from the AP article:

American flags were brazenly waved in the faces of Hispanic students...

It may not have been a cross burning, but the message was crystal clear,
not patriotic, but provocative and xenophobic. The flag waving was
disruptive behavior.

[slaveplanet]

30. Why did the report leave this part out

Mexican flags were brazenly waved in the faces of American students...

If they're having a flag waving war, which one has to assume, since it broke down into a Mexican flag being used as a missle.

Then why the fuck leave it out of the article?

Notice how I cursed there for added effect...on that subject why did they feel the need to add "brazenly"?????

[0007]

36. Poor babies!

[Occulus]

37. The Mexican flag is three solid vertical bars, correct?

Left to right, green, white, and red, with an insignia in the center of the white stripe.

One response would be for the maching band's colorguard to use a flag with those exact colors in that exact arrangement with, say, a black dot in the white stripe-

and call the show "Fiesta!!".

Guess we'll have to wait until fall.

:D :silly:

[Rocknrule]

38. I am starting to become ashamed of being a Colorado student myself

From the Nazis at Columbine to the Hitler Youth at Overland to this, there are way too many loony RW students here