Should capitol police officers be able to recognize every congressperson?

[Skinner]

I must admit, I'm finding this whole Cynthia McKinney thing to be quite frustrating. We've got the word of the officer against the word of the congresswoman. And we aren't helped by the repeated use of vague phrases like "inappropriate touching and stopping" which don't give us any clear idea of what exactly the police officer did. Did he tap her on the shoulder? Did he grab her arm? Something worse? And did she actually hit him in response, as is alleged? If so, that doesn't seem so wise.

But ultimately, I can't help thinking that this whole thing would almost certainly have been avoided if she had been wearing her congressional lapel pin.

Members of Congress are allowed to bypass the metal detectors and security checkpoint. They are supposed to wear a lapel pin that identifies them as lawmakers. McKinney acknowledges she wasn't wearing one when she was stopped, but concurred with Myart that police should know who she is.

"The pin is not the issue," the six-time congresswoman said. "The issue is face recognition."

Source: http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/03/31/mckinney.police

The whole point of the lapel pins is so that people can tell who is a member of Congress and who isn't. It is the job of the Capitol police to guard the entryways to the Capitol and the Capitol office buildings, and everyone who enters -- except members of Congress (and staff accompanying them) -- must go through metal detectors. So, we've got a system in place where everyone has to go through metal detectors except for members of Congress who have line-jumping privileges. It seems to me that in order to make such a system viable, members of Congress have to actually wear their pins. Otherwise, the risk of someone who isn't a member of Congress jumping the line would be too great. Does anyone think it would be wise for Congress to get rid of the pins and still try to keep such a system in place? It would be absurd.

There are 435 members of the House of Representatives (and if you include the Senate, you've got a total of 535 legislators). Should Capitol police officers be expected to recognize all of them? I think that is a little much to ask.

[merh]

1. yes

National security is hard work.

[sproutster]

2. Wow sooo... If I was a known terrorist with my FBI wanted picture

All I had to do was change my hairstyle?

Daaang, and here I thought you had to have attention to minor details to be in that kinda security.

It's my kinda dunken donuts rent a cop setup after all (remember folks these type of positions will be one of the few jobs left soon enough)

[Skinner]

7. I don't understand your post.

I'm not talking about FBI wanted posters. I'm pointing out that this could have been avoided if Representative McKinney wore her lapel pin.

[sproutster]

20. I'm talking about the photo's they have for help. :) hense the reference

[merh]

24. Uhmmmm, anyone can make lapel pins that look

like the pins that are issued.

Do you really think it is enough to just require the pin?

[flyarm]

152. in one report Cynthia said she showed her congressional i.d.

yes she has now said she showed her congressional i.d.

what more does she have to do??

and if the cop grabbed her from behind..i as a woman would consider that assault...

in the security training i have had ..anyone who would grab me from behind would be considered an attack...and i would react accordingly..

and my training has taught me not to trust that a person has a uniform on..it could be an infiltration...

remember Al Queada could have a police uniform on or a pilots uniform on...

how many women have been told ..do not stop at night for cops..drive to a gas station that is well lit or drive to the police station..do not stop on dark streets even for a cop car or cops uniform..

yes women have been socialized to this now..

i have been told by detectives in my town not to stop for a cop at night..drive to a well lit place..before stopping..you can not be held for anything wrong with that..

how many have heard of women being raped by fake cops??

i know the security training i have had ..i have learned to not trust anyone...

react for your personal safety..ask questions after...

if anyone..came up to me from behind and put their hands on me..i know..i have done it..i react wildly..and i go nuts on them.....no one touches me from behind..and if they do..they are sorry for it.

fly

[merh]

154. I couldn't agree with you more.

Hi fly! :hug:

thanks for this perspective. :thumbsup:

[Kingshakabobo]

3. That's what I was thinking. 535 faces is a lot to remember.

I think McKinney is a little full of her self on that point. As for the inappropriate touching and alleged "punch", I'll wait for the video.

[sproutster]

5. Plus ya know... "they" all look the same, huh?

Poor security.

[Kingshakabobo]

25. Like I said, I'll wait for the video. You, on the other hand have it all

figured out. You have branded the cop (and me) a racist. For all you or I know, it could have been the cop's first week/month on the job or that particular assignment. Nobody knows the facts yet except for some anonymous jerk(s) on the internets accusing people of being racist.

[Balbus]

131. Who's "they"? Congresspeople?

:shrug:

[EFerrari]

22. Is it that hard? I taught in seminar rooms that held 300 people.

You learn to recognize them every semester. Would it be harder to recognize 535 people who didn't turn over very much? It doesn't seem like much of a challenge?

/typo

[Kingshakabobo]

28. Please tell me how long that cop was on the job or that assignment?

I'd like to know because I must have missed it in the news reports.

[blondeatlast]

34. I keep thinking this too and add to it he had probably

a split -second to react to the incident.

And again--if they'd apologized to each other and perhaps laughed it off we'd all be better off.

[EFerrari]

66. No idea, which is why I raised a question. n/t

[Kingshakabobo]

82. OK. I thought when you said: "It doesn't seem like much of a challenge"..

you had some insight as to the experience of the cop in question

[laundry_queen]

211. It's not.

A challenge I mean. Or hard either for that matter. I was 13 and I recognized (and knew the first and last name of) every student in my school. As did my brother. And that was over 700 students.
This is their fucking JOB, it's really inexcusable, imo.

[recoveringrepublican]

87. I don't think so, I had over 2000 kids in my high school

who I saw day after day after day (actually more since every year there was a new incoming class), and I could recognize most of them. How long has the guy been working there? I doubt many 14 - 18-year-olds are more observant than someone hired to protect politicians.

That being said I really haven't been paying attention to this story, unsure of the finer details.

[Kingshakabobo]

94. So, in other words, you don't know and neither do I. n/t

[recoveringrepublican]

126. Basically. Just pointing out that recognizing 535 people isn't

difficult when one sees them on a regular basis.

[carolinalady]

130. 2000, 300, whatever, that is comparing apples to oranges:

Not only are the capitol police seeing the 500 plus congress people, they also see all the staff, the press, the lobbyists, and the hundreds of visitors daily.

[recoveringrepublican]

134. Yeah, but only a select few are able to bypass security....

I'm sure they take notice of who is able to do so. If they don't then the security is really a joke. I'm not defending either side here. Maybe the it was his first day, but even then you can't tell me there isn't some kind of training "yeah these people, ok, the rest take their ass down if they don't follow procedure".

That being said, if she did hit him, charge her with assault...I'm not arguing that point.

[laundry_queen]

212. Exactly. n/t

[kstewart33]

4. No.

Please. Cops should know the faces of 535 people? Name one person you know who can do this. McKinney should have worn her button. Geez, this lady is always getting into some kind of commotion. What is her problem?

[NashVegas]

6. Yes and No

No, it's not too much to ask for a member of Congress to wear their %$#@ pin.

But, as others have pointed out, there aren't all that many black women in Congress.

"But her hair, she changed her hair."

I don't know any black person, with hair that's longer than three-four inches, who doesn't change their look every other day.

[Lars39]

8. My BIL worked as an intern in the parking garage back in the 80s.

They expected him to learn to recognize who was who as an intern.

[DoYouEverWonder]

9. How many other congress critters don't wear their pins?

Is it common practice not to wear their pins, since they are usually recognized? Did the Capitol police consistently enforce the ID requirements or not before this incident?

In most places, when it's your regular place of work when most of the 'regulars' already know each other these sort of rules have a tendency to get relaxed.

[northzax]

173. they don't relax security at the capitol

simply because they recognize you as a staffer. I have a friend who works up there, and has for a decade. She walks in, sees the same guards every day. Everyone calls everyone by name, but she still has to swipe her ID to get into restricted areas. no id, no going to work today.

[xchrom]

10. people make mistakes don't they?

police men -- if it happened as alledged should be careful grabbing women.

i have problems with the idea that an african american woman -- any african american woman would punch a police man with little provocation.

that goes against damn near instinct in this country.

think about that -- an african american woman with little provocation punching a police man?

[merh]

So, would it be okay if it was a white woman punching a cop?

I haven't seen the video to know if she "punched" him or if she swung in self-defense (being grabbed will make someone do that, especially if grabbed in the wrong place). Have you seen the video?

And the lapel pin is bull shit, anyone can make a lapel pin.

[xchrom]

42. ok -- that's just silly.

think about the african america experience in this country -- and about the scenario that includes your basic law abiding african american punching police officers.

sheesh -- i really can't even believe you reached that far into the trash to pull that out.

[merh]

57. I'm not reaching, I am asking.

I haven't seen the video, I have no idea how this incident took place.

The only thing Ms McKinney's race has to do with this relates to how many black faces are in Congress. Skinner alludes to 535 faces that have to be memorized when in reality, there are far less black faces that should be memorized by security.

It seems to me that it would take a good bit of provocation for a white woman to punch a cop just as it would a black woman.

Your use of race in that context just seems out of place to me.

[xchrom]

75. no it's not

but you can think that if you like.

african american women and white women have an extraordinarily different experience with the police -- that's a fact of life.

[merh]

99. I don't disagree with that.

I also don't agree with your concept that an african american woman would be less likely to strike a cop and would require more provocation than a white woman would, especially under the circumstances Ms. McKinney faced.

As long as you continue to create differences that do not exist, there will always be inequities. Appreciating what we share as opposed to focusing on our differences perpetuates the differences and, in effect, legitimizes them.

I'd prefer to think that no human, white, black, yellow or brown, would strike a cop at a security check point in DC unless really provoked. But that's just me. If provoked, the action could well be considered universal, the failure to recognize one of the few African American members of Congress in this post 9/11, "we are more secure than we were" world, is the only logical reference to race in this discussion, imho.

I also would like to question why it is that the check points into the halls of congress are so outdated with regards to security. Badges and pins?

How about iris identification. Those elected to congress and their staff have an entrance that allows them to step up and have their irises recognized and they walk through the metal detectors (yes, all should have to go through metal detectors.) Badges and pins can be duplicated and forged, just like any other I.D. Seems silly to rely on them given the insecurity of our times.

[xchrom]

153. excuse me -- i don't create the differences.

the diferences are already created -- they are facts -- like the earth is round rather than flat -- and that's how i see your assesment of the very real differences that exist in this world.

you move this conversation into a very interesting arena with this statement:''If provoked, the action could well be considered universal, the failure to recognize one of the few African American members of Congress in this post 9/11, "we are more secure than we were" world, is the only logical reference to race in this discussion, imho.''

that statement simply belies the reality of many, many people of colour in this country.

updated security? great idea -- who would argue with that?

[merh]

155. I prefer to find the common ground and focus on that

hoping that one day that common ground will expand until the differences are of little concern.

That statement does not bely the reality of people of color. It recognizes that the main issue of race in this instance is the failure of the security guard to recognize one of the few african americans in congress. Race has nothing to do with the response.

As flyarm points out in this thread, any woman will defend herself when grabbed from behind. If the guard grabbed her in a manner where she felt threatened, self defense is reasonable and would be for any female of any color in a like situation.

[xchrom]

183. i actually find that sentiment to be offensive.

[merh]

184. How surprising

Edited to add: Would you care to explain why you find that so offensive?

Do you just oppose the concept that we are all members of the human race and have more in common than we have differences?

[xchrom]

189. ...

i simply find it to be a sentiment that exists on the same spectrum of the willfully ignorant.

of course there is ''common ground'' -- but if one can't acknowledge and work with biased thinking and actions that exists in the majority population -- if one can't recognize the simple fact of life that an african american woman is NOT going to view living in america the same way a white woman would -- that the police represent a unique threat -- then that line of thinking exists on the same spectrum as the willfully ignorant and the damage they do.

the jerry falwells who proclaim love and damnation in the same breath --

it represents a shallowness of thinking that is dangerous.

but this takes this thread in an entirely different direction.

[merh]

191. It is you that is woefully ignorant.

McKinney is not the average African American, to say that she is spewing nonsense on your part.

She has been serving as a member of Congress since 1992, she has been around and she is treated better than most citizens, including most African Americans.

For you to totally disregard the notion that any woman of any color will defend herself when grabbed is to being self-deceptive as well as ignorant. Ms. McKinney's race had nothing to do with her reaction, imho. Her race does have a big hand in the security failings at the location. It's not like there are hundreds of African Americans serving in congress, the security guard should have been able to recognize her.

[kiteinthewind]

210. Thank you very much!!

O8)

[FARAFIELD]

11. I BLAME DENISE MAJETTE

If denise hadnt run off on that wild goose chase of a senate race mckinney(who is a joke) wouldnt be there. On the other point. She forgot her pin and admitted it, NOW in that case i think she was wrong, and for god sake how could a CApital police remember every face. Im pretty politcally aware and couldnt tell them by site. I like her excuse that they should be able to recognize them thats not really a defense, if that was the case a look-a-like could go through that meant to do harm

[Mz Pip]

12. This was discussed

on Hardball. Tweety was leaning toward siding with McKinney. He said that he used to work as a guard in the Capitol and he and the other guards made it a point to know who all the Congresspersons were.

Wouldn't be a bad idea for the current crop of guards to make the same effort. It's not rocket science. But the Congresspersons should wear their pins, too.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[Olney Blue]

13. Both Rep. McKinney and the Security officer failed to follow the rules-

she didn't wear her required pin, and he didn't recognize her face.

They should have quietly apologized to each other. This whole over-blown scenerio is ridiculous
in light of the errors on both sides.

[mondo joe]

16. Wait a minute.

Is there a rule that he's supposed to recognize her face?

I'm just asking because that's at the core of Skinner's question. So I'm seriously asking - is the officer required to recognize every one of the hundreds of faces? I thought that was the point of the pin.

[Olney Blue]

19. Good question, mondo. It was my understanding that the

guards are required to do this.... but I could be wrong- wouldn't be the first time.

Does anyone know the "official" requirements for this?

[mondo joe]

26. I assumed not - but I could be wrong too! I thought that was the whole

reason for the pin - so identification wouldn't be on the basis of facial recognition.

[Olney Blue]

31. Exactly. Other federal government employees are required to wear

visible badges. If you forget your badge, you have to register to go into
a federal government building as if you were a visitor.

You don't forget your badge!

[blondeatlast]

32. I'm disturbed by hearing this too--he could have been relatively new

to the job, for one thing.

He also may have had only a split-second to identify her (which is very likely).

All concerned made this a mountain out of a molehill.

[mondo joe]

35. Also, it's not as if the congress people are the only ones coming through.

There must be so many people coming through at all times and having to distinguish between every one at every moment must be very hard to manage.

[FogerRox]

167. when the cops have failed to recognize a congressional

face in the past........ pictures have been posted to assist in face recognition.

Skinner-- ya ever go to school? I did. Public school, in high school I went with about 1500 other students. After one year, I knew pretty much everyone in my class of 480 students. And proly 80% of the other 2 classes.


Here is the Election Reform, Fraud, & Related News for Saturday, April 1 :

[blondeatlast]

18. I couldn't agree more. This could have been resolved so easily--

and never should have happened in the first place.

[Inland]

36. Agreed. It should never have gotten ten seconds past the incident

They both should have realized it was an understandable set of mistakes and moved on.

[bemildred]

14. There are hardly 535 black members of Congress.

Ms McKinney is a quite noticeable figure in Congress, and has been around for a long time. If someone can produce information on the frequency of MOC forgetting their pin, and how they are treated, and that they are treated much the same as Ms McKinney was, then I would be willing to reconsider.

[leftstreet]

47. 43 members - 14 are women

[bemildred]

50. Exactly.

[mondo joe]

69. Are Congresspeople the only ones passing through?

If so it would be relatively easy to spot the people who aren't supposed to be there.

Or are officers supposed to be watching as hundreds of people pass through at all times, distinguishing those who are supposed to have access from those who don't?

[bemildred]

79. The public clearly does not have free access.

Just as clearly, there would be more than the Congresspersons going in and out.

But the issue is whether Ms McKinney ought to have been recognized, and whether she was recognized or not, whether the cop treated her inappropriately. Ms McKinney has every right to resist inappropriate treatment on her way to her Congressional duties, and it is no crime at all for her to do so.

[mondo joe]

98. She has no right to assault an officer at a security checkpoint.

But this can be easily resolved. If they proceed with arrest, both sides can explain themselves.

[bemildred]

101. He has no right to stop a Congressperson on her way to Congress. nt

[mondo joe]

106. Actually he DOES have the right to stop a person to confirm that they

ARE a Congressperson. Not only the right but the responsibility.

[bemildred]

109. If her identity were in dispute,

he would have a right to inquire politely.

[mondo joe]

114. Asking her to stop is the first step.

Since she failed to stop based on that he has to take actions to stop her.

Then he can inquire.

He's within his rights and responsibilities.

[bemildred]

If a small, well-dressed black woman wearing her Congressional ID

is a "threat", then we are all "threats" and we might as well just admit we live in a police state and the terrorists have won. The people that want you to believe that the treatment of Ms McKinney here is acceptable are no friends of our democracy or our freedoms, and it is you that are the sucker if you buy into this crap.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

141. Excellent post. Right on the mark.

[bemildred]

147. My pleasure, and thank you. nt

[Karenina]

158. Excellent post. Right on the mark!

Cynthia McKinney has been subjected to B.S. from "security" for over a decade. It is their JOB to know the "regulars." She is one of 14 black female faces. Yes, they ALL KNOW WHO SHE IS.

She will NOT sit down and she will NOT shut when commanded to do so by fat, balding white men. She asks questions that, for the common good of the American people, demand clear and truthful answers. Those answers would require Americans to question if their power structures are serving their best interests *BREAKING NEWS*: MEXICAN HOARDES WIPE OUT BLONDES!!! and we fer sure can't have THAT!!! ;-)

[bemildred]

161. Bush is a Thug! Cheney is a corrupt political hack!

:hi:

[mondo joe]

178. BS. All she had to do was show her ID - or better yet wear the

pin she's SUPPOSED to wear anyway.

Even if he made a fuss, it wasn't a good excuse to hit an officer doing his job.

[bemildred]

188. Blah blah blah, not doubt he has a big BLACK bruise on his chest.

From the attack of the giant evil BLACK Congresswoman.
And you accuse me of spreading bullshit.
:rofl::rofl:

[NMMNG]

205. She ignored his repeated requests to stop

And when he tried to stop her she assaulted him.

By one police account, she walked around a metal detector and an officer asked her several times to stop. When she did not, the officer tried to stop her, and she then struck the officer, according to that account.

She's supposed to wear her pin, but..

McKinney routinely doesn't wear her pin


And she wasn't wearing her ID, but showed it to him after he asked who she was.


Unfortunately, the police officer did not recognize me as a member of Congress and a confrontation ensued," she said. "I did not have on my congressional pin but showed the police officer my congressional ID."


Is this appropriate behavior for a congress person?

[bemildred]

206. Police lie, and this man is lying. nt

[NMMNG]

207. So both the witness *and* the officer are lying?

Let me guess, everyone has it in for the black woman, eh? :eyes:

[bemildred]

215. Congratulations, I think you have it. nt

[blondeatlast]

15. I work in a huge public library, and have for years.

The guards all know me but I can't bypass the tattlegates under any circumstances whatsoever.

It's a reasonable rule for me and far more reasonable rule for those who make our laws.

This all could have been avoided if she'd just followed the rules--and if the cop and Ms. McKinney had simply apologized and perhaps even laughed off the incident.

[Gold Metal Flake]

17. I think they should make a good faith effort to do so.

I also think that in such a sensitive position, the folks on duty should have certain demonstrable talents at being able to recognize faces, especially those of congresspeople.

Personally, I am not sure I am in a position to judge the actions of a black woman who has a lifetime's experience of living in a largely (and often unpredictably) racist country who is unexpectedly physically accosted by a police officer in a place where she should not have to be subjected to such treatment. I kinda get the feeling, knowing my own personal emotional temperament, that if I were her I would not have exhibited any patience whatsoever.

As for Rep. McKinney, if her actions have suggested a certain personal sense of entitlement that may be deemed beyond "normal", I suggest that Tom Delay has demonstrated far, far worse. If people are faulting Reps with "inflated personal senses of entitlement", I suggest we start the tarring a feathering with the worst offenders.

This is a Corporate-owned Media diversion, nothing more IMO.

[bigtree]

21. I think we need more info on how other members are treated

do they all wear their pins on a regular basis?

Are others regularly recognized and admitted without the lapel?

Not enough info. Besides, there are a few points that may overshadow the issue of recognition, like whether an assault actually took place. I don't think the representative will have any trouble being recognized in the future.

[Skinner]

30. Yes, members of Congress wear their pins on a regular basis.

Obviously, people forget sometimes. But when I worked on the Hill, it seemed like they all wore the pin. That's how all of us staff flunkies could tell who was a member.

[KoKo]

142. Are you sure they are still required to wear them, though? Josh Marshall

has had some posts on this and no one has seemed to point out the lapel pin. Maybe they changed it since you worked there? :shrug:

If not she could have innocently forgotten it...in a rush. But, thanks for pointing it out.

[KoKo]

144. Nevermind.... I see question was answered furthr down in thread...n/t

[misternormal]

23. Just wear the fucking pin like you're supposed to... Problem solved.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

139. The problem was solved that day...she was wearing her....

...Congressional ID.

Problem solved.

[misternormal]

170. Cool then... I stand corrected... Thank you

[BootinUp]

27. Its unfortunate

and it illustrates again the divide in our country. I think both sides have failed miserably at the job of being fellow citizens. She expects people to treat her with respect and they should but does she do the same? Thats what I am wondering.

[tocqueville]

29. don't you see the ridicule of the situation ?

so what ? a little misunderstanding, a little pushing, some angry words and BOOM an explosion of pressing charges, threats of arrest, jail etc...

there is no proportion between the incident and the judicial aspect of the story... The person wasn't an intruder and could legitimate herself.

when Europeans and others read that stuff, the automatic reaction is :

WTF ? don't they have more important things to deal with ? like a war, a debt, Katrina rescue, welfare ?

this gives a very bad image of America, the same kind than when kids and grannies are handcuffed for ridicule events... Luckily many newspapers don't even print the story here, maybe under "odd news"...

why isn't there a sense of PROPORTIONS ?

[blondeatlast]

38. Many of us do see it that way. A simple apology on both sides

(and I do think both sides should apologize) would have resolved this so nicely.

OTOH, you have an embarrassed security officer and an embarrassed congreswoman who now have to swallow a great deal of pride to resolve the situation.

It's unfortunate, but it sometimes does seem the American way.

[tocqueville]

43. exactly my thoughts...

thanks

[Olney Blue]

51. And thanks for the European perspective.

:hi:

I hope all is well with you tocqueville!

[Mz Pip]

45. Exactly

This is being blown all out out proportion by both sides. A small amount of consideration by both the officer and Ms. McKinney could have avoided all of this. Instead the rhetoric is flying and both sides come off looking over the top.

There have been a few times in my life when I have been stopped by the police and was seriously close to getting a ticket. If I had gotten mouthy I for sure would have gotten the ticket. Instead I was polite and apologetic and drove off with a warning.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[reality based]

125. I used to hear about how important saving face is in certain cultures

Well, this incident involved two American subcultures where "face" is important-- politicians and law enforcement. It seems like a petty thing. Generally, the politician would be the top dog here and the officer would be shaking in his boots for having given offense to a Congressperson. There is a certain logic behind that-- Congresspersons are arguably more significant than Capitol guards, especially within the confines of the Capitol building. They have important work to do which the Police should be supporting not impeding. In the aftermath of terrorist attacks, law enforcement's relative importance has been enhanced, much to the delight of the Barney Fife mentalities I'm sure. But there are special circumstances that aggravate and politicize this situation, which means that facts and good judgment take a backseat to the political and symbolic factors. Persons concerned about race, the war issue, demonizing opponents, anti-feminism all see something more here. And then there is this fine old American tradition of jumping to conclusions: you can see plenty of it on this thread. Ms. McKinney seemed willing to let things pass with her early remarks about regretting the incident, but when noises about arrest and formal complaints surfaced she has got her back up apparently. Whether there is a Republican attempt to embarrass her and by proxy Democrats in general or simply some self important Capitol Guard bureaucracy functioning in overdrive, I submit that this is being grossly overblown. There is one caveat: Republicans should not be allowed to use their control of the Capitol police power for political effect. I sense that this may be happening here.

[Poppyseedman]

33. Obviously, security cannot remember every congress woman

That fact that race has entered into situation is what is disturbing me.

What she is basically saying is if a white congresswoman did not wear her "pin" she would have gotten a pass to go around security without being confronted.

If that is correct, we have a serious problem with the capital police dept.

My gut tells me that is not the case. I could be wrong.

Security procedures are set up to make things run smooth as possible with as little hassle as possible for congress members without compromising security in the Capital Building.

Rep. McKinney should recognize she didn't respect that system and stop making a mountain out of a molehill.

[QC]

37. Skinner, why do you hate Katrina evacuees?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x809467

[tammywammy]

39. She should have been wearing the darn pin

One thing we don't know is how long this officer had been on the job. 535 people is a lot of faces to start to remember. What, do they have flashcards to learn them? Oh and it's really not just the 535, it's 535 plus all the staff that they're walking with.

And her hairstyle did change a lot. I can see that he saw a woman passing by, maybe caught the side of her, and didn't recognize her, because she doesn't have those trademark braids anymore. It seems completely plausible to me.

If she had worn the pin that gives her the line-jumping privilege, then this whole incident would be moot.

[daveskilt]

40. mckinney is a moron

and an ineffective congressperson. sorry. she is. When I lived in georgia and had to defend being the only socialist in my MBA class, she was an embarrasment that i had to apologize for almost daily.

I only wish the cop had taken her down with force. Really if this was a repub - we would all be berating her for her arrogance in assuming she needed no ID and wouldnn't be stopped when she bypassed security. Do we want capitol cops to err on the side of caution or on the side of assuming every loudmouth idiot who doesn't stop when ordered to do so and doesn't have any ID is safe to go on in?

[tatertop]

53. very rude post

sounds like you, in fact, know nothing about her

[daveskilt]

59. how so? I lived in her constituency for long enough

and when denise majette took off we were stuck with this excuse for a representative. utterly ineffective and vastly arrogant as shown by her recent assumption that she could cruise through security and how dare this little person a mere security guard question her?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

149. You seem to be ignoring a couple of facts...

1. She was wearing her Congressional ID;

2. Members of Congrees are not required to go through security.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

95. McKinney is a real heroine to most of us who have watched her....

...career over the years. Sounds like your problem with her is more of a personal issue than one based on actual facts.

Several questions for you...

1. How many black female Members of Congress are there? How difficult is it to learn how to recognize them?

2. No Members of Congress are required to walk through any of the metal detectors...do you think they all wear their ID badges?

3. How smart is it to grab someone from behind by the arm? How would you react if that happened to you? How would you react knowing that you were the target of the ruling political party that has expressed their intent to destroy you by any means available?

4. Do you really believe that the situation required taking "her down with force"?

5. Do you really believe that a GOP Congressperson would have even been challenged?

[Boredtodeath]

41. I just have one question

How many people responding in this thread have been to the capitol in DC in the last 4 years?

How many of you have experienced the security measures at the Longworth building since 9/11?

Quite frankly, I've been there several times. And we did everything in our power to avoid that security delay. We had lobbying meetings scheduled back to back without enough time to get from the Longworth Building to the Cannon Building, etc. AND PASS THROUGH THE DELAYS AT SECURITY.

Without fail, we took the long way (the tunnels) to avoid security.

If we hadn't, we would NEVER have made our appointments.

Now, I'm just a citizen lobbyist, hanging out at the capitol trying to convince legislators to get behind a piece of legislation........I'd like to know how legislators are supposed to get from building to building, through security AND get anything done.

This is simply life in DC. Passing through security like the "regular folks" for every vote, for every meeting, for every hearing room would mean congressional business doesn't get done.

On the personal side, I was the recipient of a very specific threat on Cynthia McKinney's life. The father of my son's friend, upon discovering I had a meeting with her, asked me to shoot her for him. When I refused (and reacted with outrage at the suggestion), he asked me for the location of the meeting so he could do it himself.

Quite frankly, this security guard is damned lucky he didn't have one of Cynthia's bodyguards pounding on his head after grabbing her.

I certainly wouldn't want to live my life the way Cynthia has to - surrounded by guards day in and day out without any degree of privacy..........just because she DARES to represent her constituents.

[Skinner]

52. With regard to this question

"I'd like to know how legislators are supposed to get from building to building, through security AND get anything done."

I think one possible answer is: They could wear their lapel pins. And when they don't they could say "Hello, Capitol Police Officer, It's me. Sorry I forgot my pin" and then get waved through.

[Boredtodeath]

55. OR they could wear their ID badge, which she WAS wearing

Oh, no one wants to discuss that aspect of this story, do they?

[Skinner]

60. She was wearing her ID badge?

Where did you hear this? I wasn't aware that members of congress had ID badges. I've certainly never seen a member wear one.

[Boredtodeath]

61. It was reported in the original story

And, having seen Cynthia numerous times at the capitol, I know she wears it around her neck on a blue lanyard at all times, with the words "United States Congress" on the lanyard. She wears it even when in her home district at Constituent Day meetings.

[Skinner]

63. I didn't see that story.

Do you have a link? Thanks.

[tyedyeto]

84. Here's one...

In her statement, McKinney said most members of Congress expect Capitol police to recognize them. "I was urgently trying to get to an important meeting on time to fulfill my obligations to my constituents. Unfortunately, the police officer did not recognize me as a member of Congress and a confrontation ensued," she said. "I did not have on my congressional pin but showed the police officer my congressional ID."


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/29/AR2006032901981_pf.html

[leftstreet]

65. This link says she "displayed" the badge

The six-term congresswoman is said to have hit a Capitol Police officer in the chest earlier this week when he stopped her from entering the building without going through a metal detector. McKinney said she was not wearing a lapel pin identifying her as a House member, but that she did display her Congressional identification badge.

http://www.11alive.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=78068

[Boredtodeath]

71. Thank you.

for finding that for me.

[mondo joe]

78. But she wasn't wearing the pin - the one she's supposed to wear.

How many people do you think wear an ID badge?

When I go to the state capital it seems just about everyone has one.

[Boredtodeath]

81. As I posted........

Most congressional members put the PIN on the upper left hand corner of their ID BADGE instead of on their lapel.

[leftstreet]

85. Here's a picture of the Congressional lapel pin

[mondo joe]

92. LOL! I didn't think anything in this thread would make me laugh.

But that picture did it.

[Skinner]

73. Interesting. Thanks for the link.

Anyone know what a Congressperson's identification badge looks like? Does it look different from the staff badge?

[Boredtodeath]

76. It does AND, FYI....

most members put the pin in the upper left hand corner of the badge instead of on their lapel.

The badge itself has the word "Congress" in big red letters at the top, with a photo of the member of congress.

[Skinner]

83. Are you sure that "most" members put their pin on their badge?

Back when I worked on capitol hill members all wore the pins on their lapels. But that was 10 years ago, so certainly things could have changed.

Thanks for the info about the ID badge.

[Boredtodeath]

93. I was there in 2004 and 2005

Almost without fail, the pins were on the badges in the upper left hand corner of every rep/senator and staffer we met with.

The list is:
Congressman Tom Price (and 2 staffers)
Senator Harry Reid (his staffer)
Congressman David Scott (and 3 staffers)
Senator Johnny Isakson (staff members - 3)
and several other Georgia congressmen and their staff (sorry, drawing a blank on their names)

In every instance, the badge and pin were worn as I described. The only difference was if the badge was on a lanyard or on a clip on their belt.

[Skinner]

97. I didn't think staffers had pins.

When did they start giving pins to staffers?

[Boredtodeath]

103. They don't

I was referring to badges for staffers and pins + badges for members. Reading it again, I realize I didn't make the distinction clear.

[Skinner]

108. Gotcha. (nt)

[Boredtodeath]

68. It was in the original post in LBN

on the day the story broke.

Since I can't figure out how to pay my rent this month, I don't have a star and search capabilities.

[daveskilt]

62. EXACTLY- if she was a repub we would all be berating her for arrogance

astounding arrogance really. the police there HAVE to err on the side of caution and when someone does not stop and show ID when asked to they are damned lucky if they don't get shot. Maybe I should run into the capitol and ignore the police who ask me to stop?

[Boredtodeath]

64. Maybe you should try that while wearing an ID badge

then your family can sue the capitol policeman who kills you.

[daveskilt]

86. she couldn't have paused and held up the badge?

.after the cop asked her to stop as he hadn't seen the ID, why keep going? why not say how dare you little man it is I the grand Cynthia McKinney? why not hold up your ID badge and scowl?

to completely ignore the officer at this point was totally irresponsible of her. both in terms of how she was treating someone trying to protect her and others and in terms of looking out for her own safety.

I have in the past been security at a variety of events including one where over 10,000 people were held hostage by someone claiming to have a bomb. ID or not if someone is going where they shouldn't I am going to stop them and ask to see that ID clearly and if they ignore me and keep going without me seeing ID I HAVE to assume they have a hostile intent.

its been a lot of years since I did any security work, but this seems clear cut to me

[mondo joe]

96. Agreed. You're passing a security check, someone says STOP and you

stop. I don't see what the problem was.

[BootinUp]

102. The problem

She perceives she is being mistreated on a regular basis, the police perceive the same, otherwise they would drop the charges.

[mondo joe]

104. If she believes she is being mistreated there are channels to take

to address it.

I don't see how not dropping charges indicates the police perceive she is being mistreated.

[BootinUp]

107. I should have said vice versa.

The police perceive they are being mistreated.

[mondo joe]

115. Oh - got it. Thanks for the follow up. :-)

[Boredtodeath]

100. Making shit up now

How do you know she didn't?

The initial reports clearly indicate she did show him her badge. Now, do I know whether or not that means she picked it up in her hand and shoved it in his face? Not a clue! But, neither do you.

And, just an FYI.....there's a reason I asked if folks had been there.......there's a great deal of shouting, calling out names and activity going on in this entrance halls at all times - and in the tunnels. There's no way Congresswoman McKinney could have known this guy was yelling AT HER.

[carolinalady]

140. did she show the ID badge when going through the checkpoint

or after the confrontation started? That point is not clear.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

145. She was WEARING her Congessional ID. That seems VERY clear to me.

[carolinalady]

151. Not to me- see below:

McKinney's Office Responds
Print E-mail Make Us Home




U.S. Rep. Cynthia McKinney (D-Ga.)




Local News Headlines
Arrest Made in Death of Newnan Exec.
McKinney: Officer At Fault
Bartow Forest Fire Smokes Homes
Ray Facing Death Penalty
Youths Learn Success With Chess
Final Gavel Sounds on Session
Daylight-Saving Time Returns Sunday



Web Editor: Michael King
Last Modified: 3/29/2006 10:46:17 PM


The office of Representative Cynthia McKinney (D-4th Ga.), issued a response on Wednesday evening to reports of her punching a Capitol police officer earlier in the day.

"Earlier today I had an unfortunate confrontation with a Capitol Hill Police Officer. It is traditional protocol that Capitol Hill Police Officers secure 535 Members of Congress, including 100 Senators. It is the expectation of most Members of Congress that Capitol Hill Police officers know who they are. I was urgently trying to get to an important meeting on time to fulfill my obligations to my constituents. Unfortunately, the Police Officer did not recognize me as a Member of Congress and a confrontation ensued. I did not have on my Congressional pin but showed the Police Officer my Congressional ID.

"I know that Capitol Hill Police are securing our safety, that of thousands of others, and I appreciate the work that they do. I deeply regret that the incident occurred. I have demonstrated my support for them in the past and I continue to support them now."



Where does it say she was wearing it and when does it say she showed it to him?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

160. "Showed the Police Officer my Congressional ID". That says it all, IMHO...

...and as another poster stated in Post #88:

<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=813717&mesg_id=814131>

She was wearing it. Where else would she have been carrying it?

None of this excuses the police officer from grabbing McKinney's arm from behind.

[carolinalady]

162. I carry my license in my wallet in my purse- Did she have a purse

When I show the police officer my license that does not mean I am wearing it.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

169. She was carrying a cell phone....no report of having a purse.

[daveskilt]

177. actually grabbing her arm is standard

I am really trying to look at this from the point of view of the cop. I have been in his situation before. Say you are him for a moment. He doesn't clearly see the ID, she is in a hurry to get to a vote, it is crowded and noisy. He sees someone he is maybe 80% sure is a congressperson go through (as they are allowed to) but wants to make sure - she doesn't hear him call her back to show her ID.

Should he then say to himself "aw im sure it is ok, I think she is a congresperson and I thought I saw an ID"

That level of security might be ok for a walmart but not for the US Capitol. If she didn't hear him then he would have to catch up to her and taking someone by the arm is pretty much what everything in his training should tell him to do. hitting him was excessive and from his point of view it showed restraint and professionalism to not cuff her at that point and instead he did the right thing and got her proper ID verified.

I understand her pride being hurt that she was not as recognizable to this cop as other members of congress, but hitting the cop? and why does it have to be something more than it is? why is everyone here so quick to make this because she is black or a democrat or a woman? she is someone in a hurry in a crowded noisy place and he is a guy trying to do his job properly. Im going to ascribe noble motives to both of them here (even though I really hated having her as my representative when I lived down in Georgia) and say this is a non issue.

[daveskilt]

176. All the reports I have seen say she did not stop

If they are wrong then so am I and this is a different story. BUT based on the assumption that she did not stop when asked to do so - I stand by what I said.

and yes she may not have known he was yelling after her. In my experience working security in that situation I would then physically stop the person by either moving in fornt of them or taking hold of their arm - which again is what all the reports I am reading say he did.

If you have better news sources you would like to share, I will admit when i am wrong.

My only point in this is not really with anything you have had to say - If she were a republican would people here be so quick to yell at the cop and shout racism, or would we all be talking about the arrogance?

[lostnfound]

192. I think if she were a repub this never would have made the news

and if it did, the police officer would be forced to apologize, even if he was 100% on the right side of the thing.

Heck, if a Repub shoots you in the face accidentally, you get on TV and apologize for the trouble you've caused.

[daveskilt]

195. good point!

thank you sir may i have another

[blondeatlast]

77. "...like to know how legislators are supposed to get from building..."

They could maybe see to it they are wearing the proper ID, as I do every morning?

As I say upthread, I work in a huge government building and we have had added security measures since 9/11--rightfully so, IMHO.

It takes a bit longer, but the rules are sensible and relatively non-intrusive. They apply to everyone. I might add that we have a very culturally diverse security and very well-trained security detail.

No one wants to live under the threat Ms. McKinney does--but does it for a moment occur to you that what the officer did could have saved her life in another circumstance?

[Boredtodeath]

88. SHE WAS WEARING THE PROPER ID!!!!

How many times does this have to be posted?

Does it occur to you that you are playing into the republican's whole purpose in making this a big issue?

The person who reported this whole thing to the press was a member of Lynn Westmoreland's staff (a repuke from hell, representing the racists in Georgia).

[blondeatlast]

111. Check the time on my post--I posted before I had read that point.

Knowing that has altered my perspective slightly--but she still should have worn the pin.

Breathe, my friend.

Edit: You apparently missed my last line entirely--about saving her life...

[Boredtodeath]

116. There's a reason a WOMAN doesn't wear the lapel pin at all times

Unlike men who wear the same suit jacket for several days, women tend to leave a "pin" on the lapel of the suit/shirt she was wearing the day before - sending the pin to the laundry or dry cleaner before they realize it.

As a woman, I have done so many, many times.

[blondeatlast]

119. Check my profile--sorry, I'm trying to make nice,

but I can't buy that excuse at all.

I'll spare you the trouble--I'm a woman who dresses professionally every day. And I must wear ID.

Sheesh.

[Boredtodeath]

122. I'm talking about the PIN

and why a WOMAN might not wear one every day.

As for your "sheesh," I find that disrespectful and out of line. I was making a point without any attack or snide remark.

[carolinalady]

136. Wonder why she doesn't affix it to her ID like you said most of

them do?
:shrug:

[Media_Lies_Daily]

143. Maybe she did....we don't have enough facts to know about the PIN....

...but we do have enough facts to know that she was wearing her Congressional ID.

That being said, where's the REAL problem in this story?

[carolinalady]

156. Ok I will probably get flamed for this big-time but I will tell you

what I think. I think McKinney speaks out loud what many of us want the Dems as a whole to say and that is great. I think she also has a huge chip on her shoulder that she dares anyone and everyone to knock off. Maybe that is understandable given the threats she receives daily. I don't think she was wearing the ID badge but had it with her which she showed after the officer grabbed her from behind since she was walking away and after she instinctively smacked at him. We know she was not wearing her pin, therefore the pin was NOT on her ID if she was wearing the ID. The pin may be on her ID so if she was not wearing her ID, her statement that she was not wearing the pin would be truthful. Sice she was in such a big hurry, it would be understandable that she did not have the ID on. She probably failed to stop because she did not want to take the time to dig it out of her stuff, otherwise she could have easily flashed the ID which has Congress in red on top (at least that is what I read above). I think both sides were wrong, and it troubles me that sex and race were the first blame excuses offered. That's what I think.

[flyarm]

196. it could save her life if she reacted the way she did.. if the aggressor

had been trying to kill her or harm her or take her captive as well!
and most people attacking a woman come up from behind them and over come the woman ..so i say it goes both ways..but the way women have been taught today is ..if someone trys to grab you from behind ..come out aggressively attacking! to get away!

fly

[Media_Lies_Daily]

112. Thank you for posting this information and for the rest of your....

...commentary on this issue.

As far as I'm concerned, especially after reading your comments about the ID she was wearing, this "case" is closed.

I happen to like McKinney very much. She has enormous courage to have publicly challenged the NeoCons the way she has, and to continue to publicly question what they are doing.

[Boredtodeath]

128. She's a personal heroine

I speak with and work with her as an activist and have great respect and admiration for her. She has a tremendous well of courage which she keeps going back to every day. She's an inspiration which keeps me fighting a no win battle.

[blondeatlast]

117. I accept what you say, as I mention, I was unaware of that when

I made the post. It soesn't negate the fact that avoiding proper channels, as the post I responded to, isn't the way to ensure safety on the Hill.

OTOH, Ms. McKinney is playing into the Repub dirty tricks by making a huge deal of it.

She and the cop could have apologized to each other and no one would probably be the wiser.

It may be hard to take, but I am on your side--whether you'll have me or not.

[Boredtodeath]

120. Sorry, but you're wrong

It wasn't Ms. McKinney who made a big deal of it - it was Lynn Westmoreland's staffer with the help of The Hill.

Cynthia made no public mention of this incident until hounded by reporters. In fact, I've seen footage of her entering the Longworth building the day after the incident, REFUSING TO COMMENT. Trying desperately to get through the throng of reporters with 3 staff members, all SILENTLY trying to get to work.

[Lars39]

164. That's one thing I haven't seen mentioned: did she have staffers

with her that day? Seems like they could have some input on how the situation unfolded.

[Boredtodeath]

185. The initial reports indicated she did

Cynthia McKinney and some of her staff were entering the building.....

[flyarm]

194. i have gone through many security classes for my employment..

as well as going through security with my husband..did it ever occur to you post 9/11 that many people are taught to aggressively attack anyone who touches you in an inappropriate way..and to be as aggressive as possible in that situation to get away??

if Ms McKinney did not know the cop was calling to her..and he approached her and grabed her from behind her back..does anyone here know what security training Ms McKinney has been through or taught ..for her safety as a congressperson??

i sure know the training i have recieved has taught me to swing and run..and ask questions later...to agressively put off the attacker..and the attacker is usually identified as someone who comes up from behind you!
with many scenerios..as a gun in your ribs..or a knife..or someone ( usually a man ) grabbing your arm or arms from behind..many women are taught to use their elbow to hit the man in the nose..

do you know that?? does anyone here know what was going on in Ms McKinneys mind when she was grabbed by the arm from behind??..no

none of us could know that..so we are all obviously just making crap up with little or no meaning..

one thing i can assure you..with my training i don't care who it is..if anyone comes up from behind me and grabs my arm..they will be very sorry..i will not wait to see if they are a cop or god..they are getting what i have been trained to give them!

don't ever assume someone hears you..go in front of someone you want their attention of..

in todays world..and with the way women have now been socialized to react..don't assume anything..nor with a man..

no one should have their guard down with anyone who comes up from behind them and touches them or grabs them..no one!

fly

[NV Whino]

44. Ms McKinney

is a high profile congresswoman. I find it difficult to believe that she wouldn't be recognized. Now, my congressman keeps such a low profile that even his own mother has trouble recognizing him.


However:
1. Ms McKinney should have been wearing her pin
2. The guard probably acted in an inappropriate manner
3. Ms McKinney has probably had it "up to here" and also acted in an inappropriate manner
4. And how relevant is this when the (so-called) Vice President of the United States tells someone to go fuck himself on the Senate floor?

[bemildred]

49. And the media dog-and-pony show over this is

very much intended as a deliberate and opportunistic
attack on Ms McKinney, who has made many enemies.
Good description there.
:thumbsup:

[hlthe2b]

46. I am conflicted...

I can well imagine how someone could see other Congressmen and Women (probably of the opposite party and/or race or gender) consistently treated respectfully, waved on whether or not they had their pin and feeling like they alone were being singled out. After repeated episodes, I can see how that might drive one to overreact.

On the other hand, I'd like to think that our Congressmen and women would be respectful of everyone working with them at the House--whether a janitor, an aide, the press, or security. It wasn't that long ago that a gunman blasted away a security guard in that revered hall. It is not hard to imagine that the security guard really didn't recogize her--perhaps he was new, distracted, or whatever.

I imagine the truth lies somewhere in between these two possibilities. Regardless, I think it should be dealt with outside the public spectre. It seems a high level meeting with security, Capitol police supervisors, and the COngresswoman and her attorney should be able to work through this conflict, reach a resolution to avoid future incidents, and stop escalating the whole brouhah. This, to me, is what reasonable people do. That she is being threated with charges makes me concerned that there truly may be something more behind the scenes taking place. THat truly does disturb me.

[tatertop]

48. It would be extremely easy to learn to recognize 535 faces

Memorizing faces is part of our built-in survival skills set.
Matching names to faces, somewhat more difficult.

I think she was singled out because she speaks the truth.
DeLay and lieberman are probably still laughing.

[seabeyond]

54. recognize, i dont know. but civil and open to information from her

or any person when they say they ARE a congressperson they go from there. respectful. not seeing and treating the person as a criminal. i dont think that is too much to ask of our police force that has power over us, threat of life and death, shoot first to kill, ask questions later

i dont care that he recognized her or not. why did it get to the point of her being so aggitated that she struck the man, anyway

[reality based]

56. When Bush decides to stay in office past 2008

in accordance with the memo discussed here: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/04/01/gwot_cha/ he can give the Capitol Police some rifles with bayonets to run out all the Congresscritters who fail to satisfactorily identify themselves. Who says we can't learn anything from banana republics?

[fishwax]

135. i wouldn't worry too much about that story if I were you

it's april fools day, after all ;)

[pdxmom]

58. She should wear the pin. According to what I've read, this isn't

the first time her NOT wearing the pin has caused a problem. I don't think it's realistic to expect them to recognize them all. I've been in a crowd where I had a problem recognizing my own daughter, because she'd changed her hair color.

The Capitol is an extremely busy place. And it hasn't been that long ago that Capitol police were killed by someone in that very building. The Congresspeople who work there should do whatever they can to make the job easier for those that are there protecting them.

[Virginia Dare]

67. Maybe they should come up with a secret handshake

:crazy:

[Virginia Dare]

70. Bottom line, both sides in the wrong, both sides should drop it...n/t

[blondeatlast]

90. Precisely--some swallowed pride and apologies on both sides

would serve as a great example as to how to handle such a conflict in the future.

Sadly, no one seems to care about leading by example anymore.

[LA lady]

72. Let's wait and see

Her appearance has really changed. I wish she would wear her pin. If she has had problems in the past, wearing the pin would give the police NO EXCUSE for harassing her.
The video will (hopefully) tell the story. This could be bad news.

[im10ashus]

74. This WASN'T a racial issue.

It is a procedural issue. Was she wearing her security pin? No. I have to show my badge EVERY time I go into my place of work, regardless. And they all know me. If I don't have it, I have to sign in. No bypassing security. I don't know how hard he grabbed her, but she may have been reacting the only way she could if she felt threatened, and thus a media-event is born.

That being said. If Ms. McKinney wants to make this a racial issue, which I don't think it is, I will ask her to look at some of the remarks her father has said in the course of her election campaign. When she can fully support gay rights and not have someone on her campaign making anti-Semitic statements, I will respect them more.

I sure wish the press were as eager to cover more of the events that went on in Congress.

[omega minimo]

118. Male guard saw an "unknown" black woman. How could that NOT be part of it?

:crazy:

This is the kind of ENORMOUS BLIND SPOT that gives white folks "even on DU" a bad name.

Sounds like you have some experience or relation to being "The Other." Maybe you can relate it to the experience of other gender/ethnic groups :shrug:

[im10ashus]

123. I don't see that as having been a motivating factor.

Did she follow procedure? Not from what they are telling us. Did he grab her? Yes. Was it forcefully? I don't know. I sure hope not. Did she hit him? Yes. Did she have a right to? Yes. Would I have done the same thing? I don't know. I am anti-violence but have had to protect myself, and have done it well I might add, on more than once occasion. BUT, I don't think it's racially motivated from what they are revealing to us. That's why they should investigate it fully. I don't think he uttered any racial remarks did he? If so, I would have his badge on my desk immediately, were I his supervisor. I like her immensely, and she has done some wonderful things. My boyfriend is from Georgia and respects her as well. I don't particularly care for some of the remarks her father has made, but I won't "try the child for the sins of the father."

:shrug:

[omega minimo]

127. Perhaps. Yet it undeniably colors perception, which alters assumptions

and behavior, whether consciously or not.

This is why police departments do studies on "racial profiling"-- much of it is not "motivated" but subconsciously embedded.

My questions from down below:


"They all look the same to me"
How much of that attitude comes into play here? How much experience receiving that attitude comes into play in Rep. McKinney's repsonse to whatever it is the guard did or did not do?

Skinner--- when you get a hold of the whole story, could you OP it? It's too bad no one seems to know what happened.

Question:

Do ALL the Congressmembers wear the lapel pin consistently ALL the time-- is the rule enforced?
Has Ms. McKinney passed through without the pin and with no trouble many/some times before, because she WAS recognized?
In these trigger happy times (esp. on the Hill) are we to assume that the guard's pursuit of Ms. McKinney was reasonable and respectful?
What part did the perception by the guard of this "unknown black woman" have to do with it? Did the fact that she was female and African American alter the way the guard approached/communicated/touched her?
If she was a tall, greasy looking, slick-suited, shiny-shoed, aging white man would she have been treated differently?

[im10ashus]

129. I hear what you are saying.

Racial profiling is certainly prevalent, and this may or may not have been the motivator here, but I haven't read all the official statements.

I think Skinner said when he was working on Capitol Hill lawmaker's always wore them. Somewhere on this thread.

[omega minimo]

137. Cool

:thumbsup:



He may have been legitmate in what he was trying to do-- and the WAY that he handled it may have been inappropriate based on his perceptions of who he was dealing with.

I'll admit the use of "motivator" twice now is confusing. I wouldn't assume that he was "motivated" by anything other than doing his job, but his actions may be affected by his own gender/racial perceptions and attitudes.

:hi: :grouphug:

[deutsey]

80. I know someone who's on the Capitol Police

I remember he had to review a set of photos of the Congressional leadership so he could know them by sight. I got the impression this was standard procedure.

I don't remember if he had to review photos of all members, though...seems to be a bit overwhelming, which is why it would make sense for representatives and senators to wear the pins.

[slaveplanet]

89. yes

after two years of highschool I could facially recognize most in the school, the freshmen got tougher to recognize as I approached senior year.

but we're talking 2000 students...no chance with names, but facial recognition is a very hardwired human sense.

with new congress being rotated in I could see how it would be tough for the first few weeks, but Mckinney been around for a while

[Orangepeel]

91. I think that members of congress should have to go through metal detectors

[RufusEarl]

105. The simple solution would be to require,

everyone to go through the checkpoint. Makes no difference if they're a member of congress or not, privilege has it's place but not when it comes to security. Just my 2 cents.

[omega minimo]

"They all look the same to me"

How much of that attitude comes into play here? How much experience receiving that attitude comes into play in Rep. McKinney's repsonse to whatever it is the guard did or did not do?

Skinner--- when you get a hold of the whole story, could you OP it? It's too bad no one seems to know what happened.

Question:

Do ALL the Congressmembers wear the lapel pin consistently ALL the time-- is the rule enforced?

Has Ms. McKinney passed through without the pin and with no trouble many/some times before, because she WAS recognized?

In these trigger happy times (esp. on the Hill) are we to assume that the guard's pursuit of Ms. McKinney was reasonable and respectful?

What part did the perception by the guard of this "unknown black woman" have to do with it? Did the fact that she was female and African American alter the way the guard approached/communicated/touched her?

If she was a tall, greasy looking, slick-suited, shiny-shoed, aging white man would she have been treated differently?

:patriot:

[Gormy Cuss]

110. In a word, Yes.

Otherwise the fake little security system that relies on a lapel pin should be abolished because I'd rather think they rely on visual ID backed up by lapel pins or MoC ID cards rather than think the use the lapel pin as a primary ID.

For those of you who have never had to learn to visually ID 500 people, trust me, it's not that hard. It takes a little work and a few weeks. It is the same 500+ people for two years and then only a fraction of the faces change. If it is hard for some security personnel, those security personnel need to be reassigned because this is the system in place. The lapel pin is a back up ID, and McKinney says she showed her congressional badge as well. Maybe the guard was new and screwed up. Maybe the guard didn't like her attitude. Maybe McKinney was in a foul mood. Without video or eyewitness accounts from bystanders it's hard to say whether she was justified in hitting him but that is exactly what I would do if someone grabbed me unexpectedly or with any amount of force.

Why are MoCs allowed to bypass metal detectors in the first place? Are they special? In post-9/11 America I thought everything was different. :sarcasm:

[johnnie]

113. I agree with you

I posted this on the thread from yesterday and felt the same way. I had a few people tell me that the cops there should be able to recognize everyone and I didn't debate it. I thought it was a bit too much to ask and I think that the lapel pins where given to them for just this reason.

Once again, it was easy for a lot of people to play the racist card, but I just don't think that is the case here. According to some of the accounts the cop first asked her to stop and she didn't, he then grabbed her and she hit him.

[jarab]

121. They should not have to recognize ...

every member by face. If they're doing their job properly, why put this extra duty upon them. It is the duty for the congresspersons to wear their ID, it would seem. Why else have that ID thing in place?!
As for any fault in this instance - if any - I'd have to see the film. Anything beyond that is senseless speculation.
...O...

[1monster]

124. Yes. As a substitute teacher, I see as many as 535 different students

a week. Sometimes less, sometimes more. While I don't remember every one of them, in shcools where I spend the most time, I can recognize more than 535 faces, if not their names. When I see them away from school, I can quite often remember which school they are from, if not their names. I sub at six different schools on a regular basis, and eight more on a now and then basis.

It doesn't seem hard to me to learn the faces of these people when that is part of the job.

If the CHP officer was new on the job, then there should have been some arrangement or sign up that all Congress members should check in with him...

[Gregorian]

132. Just the ones without white skin and blue eyes.

Same situation, different Senator- Cop grabs Orin Hatch's arm. Cop is immediately fired. End of story.

Edit- I should say that this is somewhat tongue in cheek. We don't know the facts. I'm just assuming. But, you know the track record.

Edit number two- BTW, this whole cop problem, as I see it in this country, is due to a large extent on just the very thing you are bringing up. Cops used to be a member of the community, and know members of the community. It's this anonymous and unfamiliar relationship that is partly to blame.

So, actually my answer is yes. They should know every member. Although that gets pretty tough when you think of the turnover.

[slaveplanet]

166. I so totally agree

They're doing away with home rule around here.
and it's bullshit.

The media gives the cop union so much face time on TV.
"Wha, wha , wha... other people get to live outside the community and come in to work".

The whole reason the laws were set up that way was to force the police's children to grow up in the same community they police.

It acts as a hedge against tyranny.

and look what they're doing now, Dyncorp employees are taking deputy positions in St. Bernards Parish ,La.

Not enough people see the slippery slope.

[bridgit]

133. no, every member of congress should understand the need for...

security measures; red, white, yellow, black, polka dot, or plaid

[melissinha]

138. CHILL OUT people

By this continuous discussion of this issue you are continuing to make this into a big deal... It appears as if a hostile staff member reported this non-story and we are all getting caught up in it...


I mean over a stupid PIN! I forget my badge once in a while! McKinney had the actual identification she is supposed to carry, but because she wasn't wearing some freaking pin.... yes she probably did act inappropirately but I can also see the stress she is under. I think the race issue is that she is only 1 of 14 black female congresswomen, thats a small group. You guys are getting me caught up in this..

Just let it go! let her get to work, I hope she superglues that stupid pin to her badge and that security officer will learn pretty quickly to identify MOCs.

[Freedom_Aflaim]

146. Yes, but if they fail, should they be assaulted?

Cops are just like us. Some are really good at their job, others poor at it. Some have been doing the job for 20 years. Others just started today.

While I believe that its incumbent on capital police to know who they are protecting, we should expect that occasionally when they stumble they are not assaulted for their mistake.

FWIW, I think that Cynthia should do what Bush won't do. Just take responsibility for her actions. She should stand up and say "I made a mistake and I appologize for it. Why won't the president do the same?"

The whole thing is being escalated beyond reason. Whoever breaks and becomes the "bigger person" will win. (imo)

[Media_Lies_Daily]

157. "Assaulted"?? Why did you fail to mention that McKinney....

...was grabbed on the arm from behind? How would you respond to someone doing that to you?

Why did you also fail to mention that she was wearing her Congressional ID? The idea that she was or was not wearing her lapel pin is moot after it became known that she was wearing her Congressional ID.

[mondo joe]

179. If my arm was grabbed from behind while passing a security check

probably the last thing I'd do is hit an officer.

All she had to do was show her ID. Better yet, she could have addressed the issue upfront by telling the ifficer she didn't have her pin and could she just be waved through anyway.

[Freedom_Aflaim]

213. Thats pretty well covered I believe

If you wish, I can provide you with links to the original story so that you may read those points again.

It was not my intention to post the story in its entirity, but rather follow up on the original post.

Besides, why would I mention things that, as you suggest, are now moot?

[yurbud]

148. Democrats need to start backing McKinney--she says what they don't

have the guts or permission from their donors to say.

[Rex]

150. I want to see the video!

No real opinion until I see it with my own two eyes!

[Rainscents]

159. Same here!

[Media_Lies_Daily]

168. From what I understand, you won't see much...the altercation....

...took place outside the camera's angle of view.

[gollygee]

163. I think it's an unreasonable expectation

it just isn't realistic

[Sparkle]

165. She admit she should have worn her pin.

And that she touched the cop. But he touched her first, I think the cop over reacted because he probably had a vendetta against Ms. McKinney.

Let's see the videotape. It's amazing we are allowed to see beating after beating from cops to get reactions from the public but one minor altercation involving a congressperson won't be released. Why?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

175. But, she was wearing her Congressional ID...something that the...

...security guard should have noticed, IMHO.

[me b zola]

171. Apparently face recognition is part of the Hill police job description

CNN news readers were having a discussion about this yesterday. This is why the issue of McKinney's hair initially came up, that is the cop's excuse for not recognizing her--which to reiterate, is part of his duties.

Many cops are former military. A concept that is drilled into your head in the military is ATTENTION TO DETAIL, for it is the little details that can get you or a bunch of people killed if you are not paying attention to them. Of course most things are not of life & death importance, but that same attention to detail can make or break your career. I can pretty much guarantee that if an inattentive Master of Arms/MP were to cause a similar situation with the wife of the XO, not only would the wife not be further publically humiliated by suggesting that she broke the law, but that MP may well be repremanded.

[bpilgrim]

172. at a minimum they should know the faces of the folks in the buildings

they are assigned to, to SECURE...

i don't believe ANYTHING the RW tells us these days so they are gonna need some pretty compelling evidence of assault before i buy it.

Cynthia Mckinney is an american hero, no matter what the FREAKS may say.

peace

[WinkyDink]

174. In my experience, too many men have become aggressive in their

attitudes and behaviors towards women. Add authority, and it's got some potential for b.a.d.

[cynatnite]

180. You're right

I think it's too much to ask for anyone to remember all those faces...after a while some are more memorable than others, but not everyone can do it.

What would settle this entire issue is the release of the video. I can't weigh in on this one way or the other since we know so little.

[rman]

181. The issue is, did she "hit" the officer or not.

We would not have heard of this if either she did not hit the officer or if someone would not have made up that she did.

There's only one way to know for sure: the video recordings of the incident should be released.

[kid a]

182. YES nt

[WilliamPitt]

186. I was in the Ford House Office Building last week

and was kind of shocked by the lacadaisacal security. There were two female officers manning the security checkpoint at the door. I went out and came back in probably five times all told, because I was fleeing the Soul-Sucking Meeting of Red Hot Death to smoke. Each time I went out, I had to pass through the metal detector to get back in.

Each time I came back in, the two cops were standing fifteen feet away from the X-ray machine and metal detector, chatting away with their backs to the checkpoint. The didn't even look at me when I went through the machine; I did the routine and piled up my stuff onto the conveyor, sent it through, walked through, and grabbed it. They didn't look at me once. Later, it was two make cops manning the station, and they did exactly the same thing.

I could have walked through that detector with a bag of live wolverines over my shoulder, and the security officers wouldn't have seen a thing. If I were ever planning on doing something dastardly in a congressional office - note to Homeland Security: this is purely a hypothetical scenario, and I am no threat; I own no wolverines - I would choose the Ford House Office Building and enter through the door at 2nd and D SW, because the cops there couldn't give a single shit about doing their jobs.

My point is that these cops are not going to remember 535 faces. I'm amazed the ones I saw last week remember how to put their pants on in the morning. I was devoutly unimpressed, and so Rep. McKinney would probably do well to wear some form of identification the next time she tries to get into a building. It actually heartens me to know that she got grabbed after blowing past security; at least one of the cops on that force has a pulse, and can do more than chat about what was on TV the night before. Had McKinney been walking into the Ford Building, the cops there wouldn't even have twitched.

[question everything]

187. No.

All members of the House are up for re-election every two years. Then we have special elections to replace sitting members. We all have to show IDs at one place or the other.

Why shouldn't members of Congress do? Is it not enough that they enjoy access to health care denied to most of us?

[Neil Lisst]

190. Hell, I didn't recognize her after she colored her hair and changed styles

I still think the whole controversy is a tempest in a teapot.

If she'd been a junior Republican female white Representative, the police would be issuing an apology.

[stickdog]

193. How many black women Congressfolk, Skinner?

Just asking.

Guess they all look alike to you, huh?

[WilliamPitt]

197. "Guess they all look alike to you, huh?"

Congratulations. You officially suck.

[stickdog]

201. And you officially take meaningless stuff like this way too seriously.

;-)

:toast:

[benburch]

198. That was just horribly, horribly rude.

If there is one thing that Skinner is NOT, it is a racist, and you just called him one.

He raises a valid question. There are Hundreds of people allowed to enter the Capitol and the Offices, and there is simply no way that face recognition could possibly be depended upon.

If it were, all I would need to do to send a terrorist into the building is find a Doppleganger for a Senator or Representative.

I suggest that you apologize to Skinner.

[stickdog]

199. Yes, I realize that some of Skinner's best friends are almost

certainly black. ;-) (I included a smiley this time just so this comment doesn't go over your head as well.)

IMHO, this whole "dispute/controversy" is an idiotic ego squabble unworthy of a second's consideration.

I was simply taking the role of McKinney to Skinner's role of security guard to try to illustrate how idiotic this whole "dispute/controversy" is. Why doesn't everybody (including McKinney & the security guard, Skinner, Will Pitt, you & myself) just shake hands and forget this whole overblown non-issue?

[benburch]

203. Well, I accept your explaination...

...but I certainly did not read you original posting that way at all.

But the real issue is one of security. If I were a security guard, and Ted Fucking Kennedy came through my checkpoint and would not stop so I could verify who he was, I would physically stop him. Just because I recognize who he is does not mean, first, that he really is who I recognize him as, and second, that even Ted Fucking Kennedy can get away with flouting the rules.

[stickdog]

204. There is NO real issue here. There is only a stupid ego battle and

political gamesmanship.

The officer was supposed to recognize her. Rather than just playing the "security game," she took offense that he didn't. Who cares? She wasn't a terrorist, was she? Probably 100 self-important DC movers and shakers act like jerks about not being recognized by security underlings every fucking day. Who the fuck gives a shit? It goes with both jobs. Why don't they just shake hands like I said? And why don't we stop obsessing about it?

[NMMNG]

200. Can't have it both ways

Raffauf said she was stopped solely because of her race, gender and politics.

If she's complaining because the officer didn't recognize her as a congress person, how can it also be argued that she was stopped because of her politics? :shrug:


And I agree that it is a bit unrealistic to expect officers to be able to recognize 535 faces at all times.

[stickdog]

202. Because she thinks she WAS recognized but was just being hassled.

Whatever.

It's a ridiculous non-issue.

[LisaL]

208. No.

That's why they are supposed to wear pins.

[Jack_DeLeon]

209. The Nazis had little pieces of flair they made the jews wear....

lol JK, seriously she should have worn her pin.

IMO though they should do away with pins and make everybody go through security, everyone should be treated the same.

As for the people making the lame argument, "but she is one of the few black congress women." So what? Are you claiming that she is one of the only black women in Washington? As she wasnt wearing her pin then how would the cop know she was a congress women at all.

[NaturalHigh]

214. I wouldn't have recognized McKinney with her new hairdo.

I don't see why anyone else should be required to. What's so hard about wearing a pin or presenting identification?

[Swamp Rat]

216. They should be able to recognize every Member of Congress.

It is (or should be) their #1 job priority to know the faces of each and every Member of Congress, and it should be the prerequisite for obtaining and keeping their jobs. If some cannot do this simple task, then they should look for another line of work.

Relying on lapel pins decreases security because they can be forged and may create a false sense of security.